3.6 Design Feedback

[G13_Flux]

Since bowser has recently been a target of major redesign, i feel it proper to offer some feedback and suggestions to the developers, and would encourage others to do the same.

Overall, I feel this bowser is in a decent spot design wise (at least compared to 3.5), and is not too far from being complete. 3.6b took the right direction with bowser, and 3.6 patched up some of the weakspots, like frame data on smashes, and having an effective side b punish. however, there are still a couple semi major things that I believe need to be addressed. My roomate mains bowser, and I also play him relatively often, so I know bowser in a lot of MUs from both perspectives, and we both have a very good idea of where his current crutches and weakpoints lie. Ill start with my suggestions below, and move on to describe how they apply to bowser from both a balance, and design perspective. the numbers also reflect my opinion on the relative importance of the changes (i.e. number 1 will be the most important).

1.) Standard Grab:
- decrease start up to reflect a normal grab (ie. starts on frame 7)
-slightly increase range

This is probably the biggest thing. at the moment, bowser has a very solid punish game, but his neutral game is still terrible, even with some of the movement buffs. honestly, after playing countless matches with bowser, the best thing I can do is to not approach him. everything he does is punishable, and just DD camping him and making him do something is enough to get a punish. despite the buffs to his command grab, its still not a tool for neutral, and doesnt particularly have the range. bowser needs a safer approach option that will deal with CCing at lower percents. Additionally, he needs an option OOS that will get him some reward and help his defensive game out. his OOS game is honestly terrible. his up b is quick, but extremely punishable and doesnt get bowser anything but a reset to neutral. frame 9 for a grab OOS is atrocious for such a small grab range. This is a point in bowsers design that has him fundamentally flawed atm, imo. Theres a lot of great things that have been done to his design in the past couple of patches, and i think tgiving him a proper grab is the major last step

2.) Jumpsquat / Landing lag:
-Jumpsquat reduced to 5 frames (from 6)
-Empty landing lag reduced to 4 frames (from 6)

This here is something ive been pushing for for awhile. Bowser and DDD are the only characters that have a frame 6 jumpsquat and a 6 frame empty landing lag. every other character has either a 3,4,or 5 frame jumpsquat, and a 4 frame empty landing lag. Ganon, m2, DK, and zard have a 5 frame empty landing lag. I personally thing that every ones empty landing lag should decrease to 4 frames, and the jumpsquats limited to either 3,4, or 5 frames. For bowser, this would allow him some additionally flexibility for WD OOS, as well as a quicker transition to the air in general. The empty landing lag reduction would also create some minor, but noticeable speed changes, and allow bowser more flexibility in movement. It would allow him quicker OOS options (like WD OOS and nair OOS) and it would also grant him more flexibility in neutral game mix ups, like jumping and feigning attacks on shield, then landing and grabbing or spacing ftilts/jabs/grabs. Since he will get into the air quicker, and land quicker, his overall movement against some of his rougher MUs will improve, and allow him to cope better. It also does not make sense from a design perspective why two characters alone have absurdly large frame data attributes like these. I know they were already normalized down slightly, but I think that its not enough atm. Its still very clunky.

3.) Dsmash:
-reduce number of hits
-move hitboxes closer to body to reduce disjoint slightly
- decrease endlag

This move currently is bowsers biggest crutch. You can CC to hell with it, it eats approaches, covers multiple tech options, covers almost every get up option from the ledge, kills, and the range on the hitboxes is a tad absurd. I believe bowser needs this quick, multi hit, frame 8 dsmash, but its got a lot of fat on it right now that makes bowser over reliant on it. when bowsers optimal option to cover ledge get up options is 3 dsmashes in a row that cover get up attack, jump, roll, and (if timed right) most ledge hopped options with invincibility (the armor is a big factor here), it might be time to shave off some of the overwhelming attributes of the move, and keep what is necessary for his defensive attributes. 3 dsmashes in a row is a slight exageration, but in general, a bowser that is bombarding the ledge with smash attacks and armored dtils is doing a pretty good job. if the number of hits was cut down, i could see some endlag being shaved off too. but the biggest thing is that this has now become an extremely fast, armored move that possesses immense disjoint around AND above him. even some of the better dsmashes in the game, like peach's and robs dsmashes dont function like this. This is a move that generally falls in the category for me of making me want to interact less because of its near impenetrable properties.

4.) up b:
-invincibility starts on frame 3

This is something that will allow for a better OOS dynamic with my suggestion for an improved grab. frame 1 invincibility is overkill, despite it coming from melee. If you reduce the start up, you still have an option that lets you escape tight pressure, but it doesnt become your most reliable option every single time. This is great from a design perspective because it would encourage players to more carefully and thoughtfully choose their OOS options. Additionally, adding some start up to the invincibility would be another thing that would prevent opponents from choosing not to interact with bowsers shield. Since bowser would have a faster, and more legitimate conversion OOS with my proposed grab, as well as more solid escape options like WD OOS and nair OOS, I think this change would be good for gameplay.

5.) Dtilt
- armor start up increased to match start up of crawl armor, or removed altogether.

with the prescence of a very potent dsmash, and an already heavy character, i think its acceptable to say that bowser should not have the potency of additional armor frames (that start on frame 1) to compliment a CC dtilt, especially when dtilt can already swipe low approaches out of the air, due to its size. having a frame 8 crawl armor is acceptable, and so is some armor on dash attack, nair, and smashes, but on a tilt attack i think its a crutch and doesnt need to be there. This is another contributing factor to my general gameplay against bowser of "dont approach," or in design terms, "dont interact." with a game so heavily reliant on CCing atm, i think i would be best to not make bowsers CC too good. hes already the heaviest character and has additional crawl armor. i think its a better design to have a slightly larger hole in his armor when hes using a lesser-commitment move like this. Since my proposed design has given him better overall defensive and neutral game buffs already, i think this is warranted and good for gameplay.

6.) Neutral b:
-hitboxes reduce over time to unflinchable hitboxes

this is a design thing really. Its never fun to just spam neutral b at the ledge and keep someone in a near infinite chain of up bs while theyre trying to get past a fire breath edge guard that only tacks on absurd damage. to get 10 or 15 damage is one thing, but to get like 40 damage because the flames guard the edge so well for so long is a bit much. additionally, this can be a big impact on tether characters, and i dont think that bowsers flame breath should really be too good of an edge guard move on these characters based on the punishes he can implement from their tether hops.

Overall, these things are it. I think if they were implemented, it would create a more balanced character, that preserves the flavor of who bowser is, but helps bring him in line with the rest of the cast by improving some of the more standard fundamental options that characters have. If I were to look at how this affected the cast in general, i think the outcome would be positive. bowser would still have very difficult MUs against the most mobile characters in the game, but he would have an improved neutral game to cope, and improved defensive attributes (OOS in general, especially grab) to deal with heavy pressure. he would have less of a reliance on certain crutches, like his crazy dsmash and frame 1 dtilt armor, which will force him to use his improved mobility to land some of his more effective punishes, spacing options, and mixups, especially on the ledge. These changes will also improve the desire for interaction in general, and a neutral game versus bowser is no longer stagnant and repetitive. I cant see any MUs where this will offer a lopsided advantage in bowsers favor, as he still has some of his major flaws in tact (like being a big target, with generally laggier moves, and few conversion options out of neutral).

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I have major issues with these changes.

I notice you took away things that made bowser unique and only address one weakness. You are aware that bowser is basically the only character who is F tier at the moment right? Instead of going, this is good take it away. Yes down smash is good... but look at peach's down smash and robs and marios... Bowser can handle having a good down smash that is relative to HIS SIZE, His grab range needs to be increased relative to HIS size.

Also if you are using down smash to edge guard then your doing it wrong. He has down b, get up attack, falling nair, bair that are all better.

How about you look at his MU spread and see how your changes would change them? They make his bad match ups worse and his good match ups.... nonexistent.

The major design flaw is his neutral i agree but the changes you suggest are... worse for him. Explain how removing armour and intangibilty on certain moves and increasing grab range and speed (on which grab you did not specify) helps his actual neutral? Not only does it not really help his neutral but it hurts hit punish game.

How about more major tool changes? His kit is flawed in the sense that it is missing something. Up B oos should stay. Armour on crouch should stay. Bowser does not need any more NERFS, hes fat, slow, bad neutral, laggy, ect.

Nerfing him only makes his bad match ups even more hopeless.

Think of this
Bowser vs. fox
Bowser vs. link/toon link
Bowser vs. diddy

Think of how bowser can improve on these match ups more than

Bowser vs kirby
bowser vs. roy
Bowser vs. falcon

After we address these, only then can we truly figure out what bowser needs and what bowser wants.

EDIT:
In the interest of hearing other people's ideas i will refrain from giving mine for a while. But know i can think of at least 20 BUFFS bowser can afford to have without being A-S tier. My goal is to get him to B tier and maybe at worst have a 40-60 match up and have a relatively even MU spread.

Double EDIT:
Upon actually thinking about your changes, alot of these changes would actually effect bowser's punish game more than his neutral. Just throwing that out there.

 

[G13_Flux]

I have major issues with these changes.

I notice you took away things that made bowser unique and only address one weakness. You are aware that bowser is basically the only character who is F tier at the moment right? Instead of going, this is good take it away. Yes down smash is good... but look at peach's down smash and robs and marios... Bowser can handle having a good down smash that is relative to HIS SIZE, His grab range needs to be increased relative to HIS size.

Also if you are using down smash to edge guard then your doing it wrong. He has down b, get up attack, falling nair, bair that are all better.

How about you look at his MU spread and see how your changes would change them? They make his bad match ups worse and his good match ups.... nonexistent.

The major design flaw is his neutral i agree but the changes you suggest are... worse for him. Explain how removing armour and intangibilty on certain moves and increasing grab range and speed (on which grab you did not specify) helps his actual neutral? Not only does it not really help his neutral but it hurts hit punish game.

How about more major tool changes? His kit is flawed in the sense that it is missing something. Up B oos should stay. Armour on crouch should stay. Bowser does not need any more NERFS, hes fat, slow, bad neutral, laggy, ect.

Nerfing him only makes his bad match ups even more hopeless.

Think of this
Bowser vs. fox
Bowser vs. link/toon link
Bowser vs. diddy

Think of how bowser can improve on these match ups more than

Bowser vs kirby
bowser vs. roy
Bowser vs. falcon

After we address these, only then can we truly figure out what bowser needs and what bowser wants.

EDIT:
In the interest of hearing other people's ideas i will refrain from giving mine for a while. But know i can think of at least 20 BUFFS bowser can afford to have without being A-S tier. My goal is to get him to B tier and maybe at worst have a 40-60 match up and have a relatively even MU spread.

Double EDIT:
Upon actually thinking about your changes, alot of these changes would actually effect bowser's punish game more than his neutral. Just throwing that out there.

while i had some nerfs in my list of suggestions, I appropriately compensated with buffs that will far outweigh the very slght nerfs that I proposed. I dont believe that you have read my post thoroughly enough to understand my changes, and why I made them. nor do I believe that you understand how these changes would impact his play or the cast as a whole. you have cited me as saying things that I did not say, and said I made changes that I did not make. you really should take a look at my post again. Let me clarify a bit more.

first off, I am not taking away anything that makes bowser unique. I am keeping everything that makes him unique, and taking away things that promote stagnant gameplay, and prevent the desire for interaction, which is a HUGE point on the PMs list of design goals.

the dsmash change that I am proposing is wholly neeeded imo. do you want another 3.5 bowser dash attack? maybe the move was good, but it didnt make bowser interesting. it made his neutral very very one dimensional, and the pmdt nerfed it because they wanted to expand other things, like giving him slightly better mobility and speed so that he could develop a more thoughtful neutral game, that would ultimately allow him to cope with his rougher MUs. right now, this move is wholly a crutch. Idk how much bowser you have played, but I have played against him hundreds of times, and played with him more than enough to know that this move is a bit too good. neither peaches dsmash, robs dsmash, nor marios dsmash have the armor frames, duration, number of hits, or range that bowsers has. mind you that none of the characters you listed have dsmashes that completely cover above him with serious disjoint. Isnt that what his upsmash and uptilt are for? this move will remain good for what its designed to do if you cut the duration of it, and take away just some of the absurd disjoint it has. It SHOULD be a great CC move, and should be able to cover options on platforms, but atm it chews up most approaches without the need to even CC first because of its range and duration, and covers ledge get up options without the bowser player really having to think much. mind you I said ledge get up options. moves you mentioned like down b, nair, and bair, are all great for edge guarding, yes. but its a different scenario when the opponent is on the ledge. please pay attention to the situation i am describing. honestly, if these changes were made, i could even see it being fair to reduce the endlag a bit. but its an impenetrable move atm, and bowsers play is too reliant on it because of its disjoint and duration.

as for his grab change. its very clear that this is for his standard grab. if you read my post, you would have understood that. this change specifically helps both offensive options and defensive options, and is honestly the center point of all my suggestions. at the moment, bowser has no good conversions out of neutral. his main conversions are his dash attack and is his command grab (side b), which are generally extremely risky in neutral if the opponent just DOES NOTHING and DD camps you. this makes bowsers safest neutral game an uninteractive one. giving him a proper grab wont entirely fix this, but it will give him a far safer option that allows him a proper conversion with less risk, and allows him to better pressure shields, and in return deal with shield pressure. Giving him a longer range will also more properly match the size of his character model, and allow him to cover more space properly with it, instead of having a slow, frame 9 grab that reaches barely past his nose. with this, he could actually get a proper conversion out of his shield instead of just using up b every single time and resetting the match to neutral. I will describe this change in terms of some MUs you have listed at the end.

in terms of up b OOS, this move is again, one that currently dissuades against interaction on bowsers shield, yet it generally will yield nothing even if bowser hits with it. by moving this to frame 3, you still retain an amazing escape options but it forces BOTH the opponent and the bowser player into a more dynamic shield pressure situation which is better for in game interaction. mind you, that this is at the expense of having a REAL conversion OOS with a quicker, longer grab, as well as a better WD OOS, and a better nair OOS (due to proposed jumpsquat changes). NOW will bowser have some actual, standard, fundamental options that will allow him to cope with general situations that the top tiers excel in. overall, I 100% see a buff with this suggested set of changes.

also, i never said anything about removing armor on crouch. i said removed armor on dtilt. when you are already the heaviest character in the game, your CC is great. when you have an insane, frame 8, multi hit, armored, disjointed-on-all-corners dsmash, your CC is very very potent. when you have additionally, a lower commitment, ranged, double hit swipe that covers low aerial approaches, and has armor.. ok thats a bit much. with my proposed changes, you will also now have an effective grab from a CC. lets just take the armor off. its better from a design point, because again, it will promote higher interaction, and the armor is giving bowser overkill in a situation that he already excells in. removing the armor here wont make him worse in areas that he needs help in. if anything, this armor should at least not be frame 1, and should match the frame 8 crouch armor.

now lets apply these changes to some MUs. lets start with roy, since Im a roy main and now this MU like the back of my hand. as it stands, this match up consists of roy doing nothing in neutral. all he has to do is DD bowser and get a grab. this is because bowsers neutral game is terrible, and its so easy for roy to force a reaction. with a slightly quicker bowser (jump squat and empty landing lag changes) bowser has a lot more room for mixup from the air. he can feign aerial approaches that might normally force a shield, and attempt to pressure opponents either through side b, or landing with grabs or spaced ftilts or jabs. all this he can do more quickly because of an improved air to ground transition. addiitonally, approaching with a simple grab is not such a bad option any more, and roy has to thing more carefully about how to deal with bowsers snappier approach game. This means that roy is forced to interact more. this is good. this same concept can be applied to CF, fox, ZSS, wolf, and other quick, high mobility characters. notice that bowser retains an amazing CC, sacrificing no startup speed whatsoever when it comes to attacks, and gains the ability to place his attacks better around the stage because of his now quicker WD, as well as a quicker air to ground transition. Additionally, bowser sacrifices no potency in his punish game. you were wrong in saying that my proposed changes dealt with his punish game. they are all very much geared around his neutral game and defensive attributes, two of his weakest areas.

lets look at the kirby MU. with a quicker transition from the air to the ground, bowser will have a much easier time getting into and out of the air to box out kirby with superior range. the mere action of him being in one of these transitional states is no longer so punishable.

for characters with projectiles, again, air to ground transition is key in aiding his mobility around the stage. this is very relevant in the ZSS, wolf, and diddy MUs. this increased mobility gives him a lot more ease in landing his best conversion option, his side b, and now potentially his normal grab.

for heavy pressure characters like fox, lucas, wolf, falco, etc, bowser now has better options OOS to cope. no longer is he forced to use an up b that doesnt really get him anything but a reset to neutral, or put him on the ledge. now, he can punish with grab in certain situations that will get him a more proper conversion, as well as a WD OOS if they are spacing attacks on you. for other characters, a nair OOS is now a slightly more realistic possibility for defense as well.

so after this explanation, and hopefully with you re-reading my post, i hope you can see why my proposed changes deal with his defensive attributes and neutral game potency, and why certain sacrifices in dsmash duration/range, up b invincibility, and frame 1 dtilt armor are necessary to promote an interactive gameplay. in turn, bowser is given certain buffs to his grab and quicker frame data on air/ground transition that open up standard fundamental options to him giving him better defensive attributes as well as allowing for a more effective approach game in neutral. his punish game remains largely unchanged, except for the fact that he now just has a little bit less leeway with a still very good dsmash.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

I agreed with tasteless gentleman on this after your first post, and I never agree with him on anything. However your second post was much better worded, so I respect your opinion now. I don't think DSmash is too good though, and don't think it needs to be nerfed, it is a strong option, and one of the few things Bowser has that I, as an opponent have to respect. It is not too good, it doesn't have stupid damage, it's not super fast, it doesn't combo at all, and it has a **** ton of endlag.

 

[G13_Flux]

well the dsmash may be a matter of opinion. I personally think hes over reliant on it, however, my proposed change is really only a tweak to it, not so much a redesign. If nobody else thinks dsmash is a bit over done right now, thats fine. While i will likely continue to disagree on that, its also not the most important part of my proposed changes. The grab and jumpsquat/empty landing lag changes are really the top priority IMO, especially from a balance standpoint. some of the other nerf-tweaks i proposed I still think are important, but mainly from a design perspective, and going by their design philosophy that they have posted on their homepage. I probably should edit the OP to reflect what if feel is the most important and what isnt.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

I would like to see his airspeed buffed. How do you feel about that?

 

[G13_Flux]

well, i guess it wouldnt be unwelcomed. but i dont see why he would need it per se. his coverage in the air is very good thanks to fair and bair. neutral b helps a lot with that too. what aspect of his game do you feel that would improve on? and what weaknesses that he possesses would that ammend?

 

[tasteless gentleman]

After reading the first post again and the second post, i noticed you address my match ups that i said more in a sarcastic tone (roy and kirby are the only positive match ups bowser really has) and the fox and diddy (ect) match ups you kinda just said bowser will "cope".

Cope is a very... sad word and i dont feel like you quite understand the match up and how utterly hopeless it is without a NEUTRAL tool. So you are saying that by eliminating intangible frames and making the move come out 1 frame earlier that this is a better neutral tool? The reason it is a good tool is because of the intangibility it has (shoot it even clanks with fox's shine). So you think giving bowser a better grab will make up for his neutral, Please explain how that helps in the link, fox, diddy match up (these are 80-20 at best, so please tell me how a grab boost will help the match up to 60-40)

Also the way you worded this, you made it sound as if you play against bowser alot but also play bowser very casually.

Maybe you dont like his down smash because you fall into it and get punished too easily, dont nerf it because YOU have a problem with the move, nerf it because it really is too good. Its easy to punish, ill name a few. Bait it out and attack bowser after the lag is taking affect...Oh you got sucked in? Have you tried SDI down and rolling out of the move, you can do that at death percents even.

I used peach, rob, ect because their down smashes are better/faster/strong than bowser's, 80% of the time, bowsers armoured dsmash doesnt matter because it has more priority than ness pk thunder.

Also maybe it is the wall of text but i also find the explainations/reasoning too wordy to comprehend (according to you) so allow me to give a noob friendly/short attention span way to list buffs.

Here are 5 easy to understand ways to BUFF bowser

1. Boost air mobility. (better punishes and recovery)
2. Make up B out of shield a better kill move or less punishable ON HIT (more conversions, safer)
3. Movement that boost bowser forward suddenly similar to his smash 4 customs (KK or Smash attack, preferably KK for the recovery options)
4. Give bowser a projectile that beats out all but fully charged balls of aura, light, ect ( anti camp would be nice)
OR
5. Give bowser a bite box when he uses fire breath (flames are transendent afterall) that EATS projectiles and can be released as fire balls (damage and speed are based on projectiles) by hitting B twice. (anti camp, doesnt change the marth, falcon match up)

I have more but i think you get the idea, but these buffs are actually tools for bowser and not just improving his stats. The issue is not bowsers stats, they are his lack of kit. Bowser is incomplete at the moment and really suffers in match ups and can not really be solo mained because of it. Until you make actual kit and option changes, I just simply wont be on board. Think of it like this, falcons running nair covers over half of FD, bowsers anything doesnt. Mix that with falcons air speed, power, and DD and you have a character with actual tools even though he has no projectile. Now since bowser obviously cant have speed, he needs something else. Also, i suggest you solo main bowser at a tournament before you try making all these shotgun changes on him so you can see what he actually would need.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Boosting air mobility would allow him better use of his great airials, it would improve his edgeguards, recovery, neutral game and punishgame.

Honestly Bowser should never receive a nerf again, he currently sucks, worst in the game easy IMO, and none of his stuff is overwhelming or better than another tool another character has.

 

[G13_Flux]

After reading the first post again and the second post, i noticed you address my match ups that i said more in a sarcastic tone (roy and kirby are the only positive match ups bowser really has) and the fox and diddy (ect) match ups you kinda just said bowser will "cope".

Cope is a very... sad word and i dont feel like you quite understand the match up and how utterly hopeless it is without a NEUTRAL tool. So you are saying that by eliminating intangible frames and making the move come out 1 frame earlier that this is a better neutral tool? The reason it is a good tool is because of the intangibility it has (shoot it even clanks with fox's shine). So you think giving bowser a better grab will make up for his neutral, Please explain how that helps in the link, fox, diddy match up (these are 80-20 at best, so please tell me how a grab boost will help the match up to 60-40)

Also the way you worded this, you made it sound as if you play against bowser alot but also play bowser very casually.

Maybe you dont like his down smash because you fall into it and get punished too easily, dont nerf it because YOU have a problem with the move, nerf it because it really is too good. Its easy to punish, ill name a few. Bait it out and attack bowser after the lag is taking affect...Oh you got sucked in? Have you tried SDI down and rolling out of the move, you can do that at death percents even.

I used peach, rob, ect because their down smashes are better/faster/strong than bowser's, 80% of the time, bowsers armoured dsmash doesnt matter because it has more priority than ness pk thunder.

Also maybe it is the wall of text but i also find the explainations/reasoning too wordy to comprehend (according to you) so allow me to give a noob friendly/short attention span way to list buffs.

Here are 5 easy to understand ways to BUFF bowser

1. Boost air mobility. (better punishes and recovery)
2. Make up B out of shield a better kill move or less punishable ON HIT (more conversions, safer)
3. Movement that boost bowser forward suddenly similar to his smash 4 customs (KK or Smash attack, preferably KK for the recovery options)
4. Give bowser a projectile that beats out all but fully charged balls of aura, light, ect ( anti camp would be nice)
OR
5. Give bowser a bite box when he uses fire breath (flames are transendent afterall) that EATS projectiles and can be released as fire balls (damage and speed are based on projectiles) by hitting B twice. (anti camp, doesnt change the marth, falcon match up)

I have more but i think you get the idea, but these buffs are actually tools for bowser and not just improving his stats. The issue is not bowsers stats, they are his lack of kit. Bowser is incomplete at the moment and really suffers in match ups and can not really be solo mained because of it. Until you make actual kit and option changes, I just simply wont be on board. Think of it like this, falcons running nair covers over half of FD, bowsers anything doesnt. Mix that with falcons air speed, power, and DD and you have a character with actual tools even though he has no projectile. Now since bowser obviously cant have speed, he needs something else. Also, i suggest you solo main bowser at a tournament before you try making all these shotgun changes on him so you can see what he actually would need.

Just because bowser is not my solo main doesnt meant that I cant give feedback on my experience with this design, nor does it mean that I dont have the experience to generate effective ideas that will improve his design. These have been very well thought out, and come from countless hours of playing him and against him. they are not "shotgun changes," and please dont assume anything about how I play bowser, because you honestly have no clue whatsoever. I personally think you are just unhappy that I have suggested subtle nerf tweaks. If you have learnt anything over the years of PM, and have kept track of the design change decisions that the PMDT has made, and how they have affected certain characters, I hope you can understand that just because a character is bad overall doesnt mean that they dont have certain moves that are toxic for gameplay. With an appropriately compensated kit (which i have suggested, and you neglect to see), an overall buff can be created despite certain nerfs.

on the subject of bowsers neutral game, which i think we both can agree is important:

up b isnt a neutral tool.. its an escape option, and it really doesnt get him anything but a reset back into neutral. by taking away 2 invincibility frames, that doesnt affect his neutral game. what it does though, is justify giving him an actual, standard grab with increased range. Bowser can still escape shine pressure with up b, and now he also has an OOS that allows him a proper conversion. if you were to keep the frame 1 invincibility, it would greatly discourage interaction with bowsers shield, which is toxic for gameplay. Even some of the best OOS moves in the game right now dont posess frame 1 invincibility. GWs up b OOS doesnt occur until frame 4 (1 for jumpsquat + 3 until the hitbox comes out), and even the shines OOS dont happen until frames 4, 5, or 6 depending on if its fox, wolf, or falco. bowser can escape to the ledge with his up b too, and he has a lot of good options from the ledge. i personally just think that if you gave him a grab OOS, and modified start up of his up b, you would end up with a more effective character, while avoiding the toxic attributes.

the grab and jumpsquat/landing lag changes ive proposed are huge for bowsers neutral. you seem to neglect to see why, and still think that I havent given him a neutral tool. again please re read.

im not sure i can see that your proposed bite-projectile change would help bowser as much as you think. I mean it wouldnt be bad for him, but it doesnt do anything to mend bowsers poor frame data. having a move like that might take some pressure off, but it isnt going to be game changing unless its going to get bowser a conversion. and since it already takes a long amount of time for neutral b to start up and end, i dont think hes going to get much off of it. it might not be a bad proposition for the future, but in the present, i think theres far more important things that need to be done first to help bowsers neutral. having generally better mobility (through better frame data on jumps and landing) and a proper grab is the first way to go about this. if you want to leave bowser with the current frame data holes that he has in his game, then fine, you wont accomplish fixing his neutral game. dont forget bowser also has crawl armor to help him deal with projectiles in the present, and they made him crawl faster into 3.6 beta as well.

as far as your burst movement idea goes, KK already has some burst movement on it, and his fsmash lunges him pretty far forward. what exactly are you talking about here? This is why giving the "easy to read" explanation isnt always the way to go. sometimes you have to put in the effort to explain things, even if it means people have to do more reading.



in short (if it helps you understand my points better):
-up b isnt really a neutral tool. improving or nerfing this doesnt change his neutral game
-holes in bowsers frame data are currently his biggest disadvantage. mobility and speed are key for neutral (refer to fox/falcon/diddy MU)
- things that help his neutral need to be meaningful in terms of getting him conversions (i.e. slow spacing moves like neutral b arent the first place to start. instead, lets try his grab, like ive proposed)
- please keep in mind how any proposed changes affect in game interaction (e.g your up b buff sugestion would literally discourage anyone from ever wanting to interact with bowsers shield, and it would be a very 1 dimensional gameplay. the name of the game is smash, not "spin it to win it.")

p.s. bowser does not go positive against roy

 

[King of Hoboz]

So, I'm an Ike main with a keen interest in Bowser and in seeing the game directed towards a generally more powerful/flexible cast (with some obvious exceptions and the removal of overly degenerate play). Here's my two cents on the character going from 3.5 to 3.6 and how he should be in the up coming patch.

Is Smaller really better? I believe everything wrong with Bowser (from 3.5 to 3.6) as of now is rooted in his size decrease and changes that had to be made to support it. I will admit, his original size might have been too much. Fair was an incredibly powerful spacing tool and could lead to oppressive situations, but now I find it generally useless to try to throw Fair or much anything as a spacing tool and I don't find the Dash Speed increase helped his Dash Dance really be useful to evade anything due to the animation of the dash to begin with. Honestly, I liked the oppressive nature, it's what Kings do (though it's honestly more Dedede's forte). In Bowser's current size, his neutral is worse since he received little to no meaningful compensation to his extreme decrease in range and his punishes are also worse due to the range decrease. Conversely, he's still as easy to hit as ever, especially since it's even riskier to throw out moves than before. I think there's a certain limit on the extremes for size where it doesn't matter how big a character is, they'll just beee easy to hit. If the size decrease was somehow suppose to help that, it failed.

My advice? I can understand why we shouldn't go to original size, maybe those moves were too big and maybe there was a lot of cheese to be had with it- but I'd settle for a 3% size decrease instead of a 6% size decrease. It'd have little impact on his ease to hit as I've discussed, while likely finding the best median for a size that hands Bowser respectable spacing tools and just that. As well, aesthetically Bowser would continue to be the largest hulking monster he tries to come off as. That's one of the big reasons I've had interest in him. The current patch makes Donkey Kong seem larger than him.

Buffs coming into 3.6 were generally fairly genius, D-Smash is an amazing tool and the KK Dunk is great, albeit need tweaks. D-Smash I feel is fine, but continued testing is fair. Koopa Klaw seems to have lost some massive range from the size decrease, more than I'd have thought, I really hope this isn't just me. I feel really uncomfortable using it most of the time since I miss way more than I anticipate to.

From stuff I'm reading in this thread, I'll quickly state my thoughts on things.

Standard Grab, Up-B on Frame 3, + Empty Landing Frames: Totally agree with all of these, it's best to make sure every character is normalized in critical aspects like these. (The jumpsquat is important too, but I really want to emphasize these two suggestions the most).

Air Mobility: No idea, I'd rather see other changes first

Up-B suggestions: Hell no, this move is already easy to make a safe escape tool by retreating to the ledge, even from platforms!

Neutral B changes: I don't know how I feel about the fireball right now. I really don't like how flame breath isn't clankable and I also find the bite too small. People will DI into the usual place to get bit in 3.5 (I am trying to account for 3.6 when I try this) and I miss so damn often. Size increase would likely fix that?

Hope I'm not the Black Sheep suggesting that #BigIsBeautiful

 

[NinthWonder]

Air mobility would be very useful. Given his current dash speed, it's out of place and bars the player from certain follow-ups. It doesn't quite fit at the moment.

Up-B is a very useful tool, and given the current lack of tools (especially in neutral, as everyone has stated), nerfing it seems excessive and unnecessary.

 

[G13_Flux]

the thing with his up b, is that i feel that everyone seems to think: bowser = bad, therefore no nerfs needed. when in reality i dont believe thats the case (neither does the PMDT obviously, and for reasons that they have specifically given within their design philosophy).

coming from the perspective of playing bowser, its easy to see why one might say, "this character is struggling, and cant afford nerfs." but coming from all perspectives (designers perspective, playing bowser perspective, and playing against bowser), i think that one might see that slightly modifying the startup of invincibility is a good thing, given that certain buffs are put in place to ensure that bowser still retains his strong pressure escaping attributes.

think about it this way:
lets say that his standard grab is changed to 7 frames, range increased, and his jumpsquat/landing lag are reduced. look at what bowser gains from this. he gains a plethora of quicker/more effective options OOS, such as a grab, nair OOS, and WD OOS. in cases like these, i do believe that a couple frames here and there DOES matter, and even a single frame can be the difference of safe vs unsafe at a high level of play. now, lets say you keep the frame 1 invincibility on up b. from the perspective of the player, bowser has great OOS options now. but from the perspective of opponents, or a designer, what youre left with is a sudden decrease in the desire to ever deal with trying to attack bowsers shield. just flow chart it out. you will ALWAYS get punished for attacking his shield unless youre 3.02 lucas. even if youre spacing attacks on shield, things like WD > ftilt are a bit more effective now. atm, bowser having a frame 1 (frame 2 OOS technically) invincibility move is semi-justified because of his lack of other standard, fundamental options. but with a quicker grab and jumpsquat, he will then have access to those options for much more effectiveness, and it doesnt seemed to be justified why he should retain such an incredibly lenient OOS option.

Im trying to not only make suggestions that will make bowser good, but also will allow him to retain a good design. Yes, characters are allowed to have good moves. bowser has many of them (down b, bair, up b, dsmash, utilt, KK, fair, etc.), but their application becomes limited when you have a character that lacks the attributes/speed to compete in general game fundamentals. when you give him those fundamental options, you might have to reconsider how strong some of his original options are such that the slightly revised design isnt toxic for gameplay.

a very close 1 to 1 of this scenario is when GW lost his super food back from 2.6b, but instead got a weight increase and a better DD. was the super food damn good? yeah. but was it needed to ensure he was a good character? not really.. instead, buffing him in more fundamental areas led to an overall better character, despite taking out the super food. THINK OF BOWSERS UP OOS AS SUPER FOOD.

 

[King of Hoboz]

I know you're referring to NinthWonder on this, but just in case this includes me, that Up-B suggestions I was talking about were from TastelessGentlemen about buffing Up-B. I think I made a confusion by not reading your own thoughts on Up-B. Moving Up-B to frame 3 is acceptable, outside of Shine, most fast moves (especially UpBs) like Zard's Up-B, GnW's Up-B or Mewtwo's teleport have been slightly starting invincibility or hitboxes on frame 3. It's a pretty standard thing. I could imagine it happening. Just want to clear that up real quick and I'll be cleaning up my other post.

 

[NinthWonder]

While decreasing landing lag and jump squat helps, air mobility is still likely needed. You can get reactions on reads better but your ability to follow up still is out-of-sync. I agree with the Up-B change if Bowser gets those attributes in place. Perhaps a little size increase wouldn't hurt either.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

the thing with his up b, is that i feel that everyone seems to think: bowser = bad, therefore no nerfs needed. when in reality i dont believe thats the case (neither does the PMDT obviously, and for reasons that they have specifically given within their design philosophy).

coming from the perspective of playing bowser, its easy to see why one might say, "this character is struggling, and cant afford nerfs." but coming from all perspectives (designers perspective, playing bowser perspective, and playing against bowser), i think that one might see that slightly modifying the startup of invincibility is a good thing, given that certain buffs are put in place to ensure that bowser still retains his strong pressure escaping attributes.

think about it this way:
lets say that his standard grab is changed to 7 frames, range increased, and his jumpsquat/landing lag are reduced. look at what bowser gains from this. he gains a plethora of quicker/more effective options OOS, such as a grab, nair OOS, and WD OOS. in cases like these, i do believe that a couple frames here and there DOES matter, and even a single frame can be the difference of safe vs unsafe at a high level of play. now, lets say you keep the frame 1 invincibility on up b. from the perspective of the player, bowser has great OOS options now. but from the perspective of opponents, or a designer, what youre left with is a sudden decrease in the desire to ever deal with trying to attack bowsers shield. just flow chart it out. you will ALWAYS get punished for attacking his shield unless youre 3.02 lucas. even if youre spacing attacks on shield, things like WD > ftilt are a bit more effective now. atm, bowser having a frame 1 (frame 2 OOS technically) invincibility move is semi-justified because of his lack of other standard, fundamental options. but with a quicker grab and jumpsquat, he will then have access to those options for much more effectiveness, and it doesnt seemed to be justified why he should retain such an incredibly lenient OOS option.

Im trying to not only make suggestions that will make bowser good, but also will allow him to retain a good design. Yes, characters are allowed to have good moves. bowser has many of them (down b, bair, up b, dsmash, utilt, KK, fair, etc.), but their application becomes limited when you have a character that lacks the attributes/speed to compete in general game fundamentals. when you give him those fundamental options, you might have to reconsider how strong some of his original options are such that the slightly revised design isnt toxic for gameplay.

a very close 1 to 1 of this scenario is when GW lost his super food back from 2.6b, but instead got a weight increase and a better DD. was the super food damn good? yeah. but was it needed to ensure he was a good character? not really.. instead, buffing him in more fundamental areas led to an overall better character, despite taking out the super food. THINK OF BOWSERS UP OOS AS SUPER FOOD.

My only problem with nerfing UpB is that once you do that people can **** bowser up good just by crossing up his shield. If you landed behind him he would be **** outa luck.

 

[G13_Flux]

having frame 4 invincibility OOS (based on my suggestion) is still really good.. keep in mind that most characters DONT have an option with that kind of speed. Thats actually still quicker than any of the shines OOS, save for tying in frame data with fox's, and also ties in frame data with GWs up b OOS. in fact, im actually pretty sure that there currently is not a faster OOS option than that..

So no, i dont believe that characters would be able to body him by crossing him up. he would actually still actually body all but the tightest of shield pressure. notice that i also did not mention anything about delaying the start up of the hitbox. the hitbox will still come out on frame 5 (frame 6 OOS).

the basis of my argument is this:
having a move with such amazing frame data and invincibility does not allow for the justification of expanded options OOS. This is because it would deter interaction quite heavily, which is negative for the game. therefore, if just 2 frames of invincibility are sacrificed (still leaving bowser with at least one of the top 3 OOS moves the game) you now are justified to make his grab quicker and longer, and cut his jump squat allowing him a quicker WD OOS. The increased number and overall effectiveness at garnering a conversion OOS due to these new options is FAR MORE SIGNIFICANT than just having a single, instantaneous "escape option."

what would you rather have? the games best escape option? or would you rather have a top 3 escape option (could still be considered number 1 honestly considering tactics involving escaping to the ledge and off platforms) in addition to actual conversions from a grab?

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Im not suggesting we buff up b UNLESS you nerf it first. Think of this like a titter totter or a scale. If you take away my invincibilty then i want better recovery or kill power, simple as that.

And like i said before, your just shot gunning his stats and not the actual problem. The problem is not bowsers speed (although it sucks) its the lack of tools to deal with diddy, fox, ect. This is also why fox is Still S-tier even with all his little nerfs, yes they are nerfs but they dont address the core problem.

Also if you say bowser doesn't beat roy, then bowser in theory only beats kirby. So out of 41 match ups, bowser only wins 1? And your saying nerfing his already limited tools is going to fix this?

Also if you dont think characters destroy bowser by crossing him up currently, try playing a good falcon as bowser, its painful how little bowser can actually do if the falcon plays right (lame)

The KK "dunk" is super cool, but as a tool, i dont think it fixes anything or actually adds to bowser tools.

However i do agree that transcendant fire is so stupid and does nothing for his neutral game outside of his spacing (which he already has with better tools) and that i have had several opponents get caught in flame and manage to shield and roll out of my fire.

So can we focus on the tools that we agree with more than the ones that we disagree.

I dont think up B should be nerfed unless something will be compensated (more KB or movement)
Air speed would be nice but i dont think it really helps his neutral.
Recovery mix up would be nice.
Burst movement would be a good neutral tool.
I can agree that his stats can be increased (grab range, speed, jump squat) BUT i dont think it will actually help his neutral.
FIREBALL or somekind of anti projectile move. Or make flames not transcendant.

Just because bowser is not my solo main doesnt meant that I cant give feedback on my experience with this design, nor does it mean that I dont have the experience to generate effective ideas that will improve his design. These have been very well thought out, and come from countless hours of playing him and against him. they are not "shotgun changes," and please dont assume anything about how I play bowser, because you honestly have no clue whatsoever. I personally think you are just unhappy that I have suggested subtle nerf tweaks. If you have learnt anything over the years of PM, and have kept track of the design change decisions that the PMDT has made, and how they have affected certain characters, I hope you can understand that just because a character is bad overall doesnt mean that they dont have certain moves that are toxic for gameplay. With an appropriately compensated kit (which i have suggested, and you neglect to see), an overall buff can be created despite certain nerfs.

on the subject of bowsers neutral game, which i think we both can agree is important:

up b isnt a neutral tool.. its an escape option, and it really doesnt get him anything but a reset back into neutral. by taking away 2 invincibility frames, that doesnt affect his neutral game. what it does though, is justify giving him an actual, standard grab with increased range. Bowser can still escape shine pressure with up b, and now he also has an OOS that allows him a proper conversion. if you were to keep the frame 1 invincibility, it would greatly discourage interaction with bowsers shield, which is toxic for gameplay. Even some of the best OOS moves in the game right now dont posess frame 1 invincibility. GWs up b OOS doesnt occur until frame 4 (1 for jumpsquat + 3 until the hitbox comes out), and even the shines OOS dont happen until frames 4, 5, or 6 depending on if its fox, wolf, or falco. bowser can escape to the ledge with his up b too, and he has a lot of good options from the ledge. i personally just think that if you gave him a grab OOS, and modified start up of his up b, you would end up with a more effective character, while avoiding the toxic attributes.

the grab and jumpsquat/landing lag changes ive proposed are huge for bowsers neutral. you seem to neglect to see why, and still think that I havent given him a neutral tool. again please re read.

im not sure i can see that your proposed bite-projectile change would help bowser as much as you think. I mean it wouldnt be bad for him, but it doesnt do anything to mend bowsers poor frame data. having a move like that might take some pressure off, but it isnt going to be game changing unless its going to get bowser a conversion. and since it already takes a long amount of time for neutral b to start up and end, i dont think hes going to get much off of it. it might not be a bad proposition for the future, but in the present, i think theres far more important things that need to be done first to help bowsers neutral. having generally better mobility (through better frame data on jumps and landing) and a proper grab is the first way to go about this. if you want to leave bowser with the current frame data holes that he has in his game, then fine, you wont accomplish fixing his neutral game. dont forget bowser also has crawl armor to help him deal with projectiles in the present, and they made him crawl faster into 3.6 beta as well.

as far as your burst movement idea goes, KK already has some burst movement on it, and his fsmash lunges him pretty far forward. what exactly are you talking about here? This is why giving the "easy to read" explanation isnt always the way to go. sometimes you have to put in the effort to explain things, even if it means people have to do more reading.



in short (if it helps you understand my points better):
-up b isnt really a neutral tool. improving or nerfing this doesnt change his neutral game
-holes in bowsers frame data are currently his biggest disadvantage. mobility and speed are key for neutral (refer to fox/falcon/diddy MU)
- things that help his neutral need to be meaningful in terms of getting him conversions (i.e. slow spacing moves like neutral b arent the first place to start. instead, lets try his grab, like ive proposed)
- please keep in mind how any proposed changes affect in game interaction (e.g your up b buff sugestion would literally discourage anyone from ever wanting to interact with bowsers shield, and it would be a very 1 dimensional gameplay. the name of the game is smash, not "spin it to win it.")

p.s. bowser does not go positive against roy

Also Yea i think the anti projectile bite (GnW pseudo bucket) would lead into a combo starter or kill conversion based on the projectile. I could be a little slower than bowsers run speed (so he can catch up to it and grab while opponent is under pressure)

And they took away (nerfed) a lot of bowsers burst movement options like KK and fsmash, they dont go nearly as far as they use to)

Also if you solo mained bowser you would quickly realize how hopeless some match ups are, but because you have a secondary (or bowsers your secondary) you have that quick option to switch which i have been doing to pick up bowsers slack.

I know you're referring to NinthWonder on this, but just in case this includes me, that Up-B suggestions I was talking about were from TastelessGentlemen about buffing Up-B. I think I made a confusion by not reading your own thoughts on Up-B. Moving Up-B to frame 3 is acceptable, outside of Shine, most fast moves (especially UpBs) like Zard's Up-B, GnW's Up-B or Mewtwo's teleport have been slightly starting invincibility or hitboxes on frame 3. It's a pretty standard thing. I could imagine it happening. Just want to clear that up real quick and I'll be cleaning up my other post.

I was only making the suggestion to buff up B IF it got nerfed originally first.
I agree with the size thing, yea bowser got comboed when he was HUGE but the size decrease did not help anything, he still gets comboed way hard and NOW he cant even get the reach that he use to, add that to the fact that all his moves received a power nerf or reach nerf or an extreme trajectory nerf...its like, for what exactly? the slightly faster moves that i still can never land because my reach has been nerfed? Aside from down smash, none of the other moves really recieved enough to be used out side of hard reads. Maybe allow fsmash and bowser bomb to outright break shield or hit through it? I mean i hardly ever land those moves and when i land them on shield i am punished (and i feel like that just should not be the case.)

Also about the flame breath, would more reach, more hit stun, and make it clank/beat other projectiles fix this?
This way it will lock them in their shield for sure unless they di out of it? Or enable it to break shield.

Basically bowser is suppose to to be the strongest monster in the game, lets make him hit like it. I would be okay with armour all being gone (aside from crawl and bowser bomb) if he had some neutral tools AND hit like a truck.

 

[G13_Flux]

I can agree that his stats can be increased (grab range, speed, jump squat) BUT i dont think it will actually help his neutral.

THIS is a problem. lets give fox average, make his grab frame 9, and give him a six frame jumpsquat/empty landing lag. Do you think he would still be number 1? im going to highly doubt it. the reason wouldnt be because he cant kill anymore. He would still have shine spike, uthrow > uair, up smash, bair, and just an overall good edge guard game. It also wouldnt be because he cant combo anymore. However, it WOULD be because his neutral game would be delegated far below what it was with his quicker speed.

its a very hypothetical situation that isnt worth going into too much detail about, but it illustrates what im trying to convey. The problem is in fact that bowsers sub par stats on things like grab, jumpsquat, empty landing, and mayyybe even air speed DIRECTLY contribute to his poor neutral game. Up B IS NOT a neutral tool. firebreath IS NOT a neutral tool. Even with some form of projectile breaking attribute, its duration is too high to be anything more than a spacing/damage racking tool in staggered situations. you will get punished by good players every time for using it in neutral, and with your suggestion of it, it still doesnt do anything to aid in situations where the characters dont use a projectile. probably the top change that I can agree with you on, even though nobody here has really given a grade A justification for it, is the air speed change.

There are a few general things that make a good neutral game.
1. Movement
2. the ability to cover space with attacks in conjunction with your movement
3. The ability to CC and deal with CCing effectively
4. The presence of threatening conversion options that result from you covering space during your overall movement.

Honestly, for these things, stats DO matter. bowser is currently terrible with 1 and 2 because of the holes in his stats and frame data (although he can cover space well, just slowly generally). he is one of the best CCers in the game, although hes maybe average at best at dealing with CCers (out of neutral, mind you). With my suggested changes, every single one of these points is addressed. He will have better overall movement, a better grab to decrease the threat of him being CCed more effectively, a more threatenting conversion tool (better grab), as well as an easier time landing his best conversion tool (side b).

If you add these things into his game, MUs like diddy, fox, falcon, and ZSS DIRECTLY improve based on increased movement, and an increased ability to land threatening conversion options. These are characters, mind you, that are NOT going to be using fire breath against too much (if not at all) in neutral.

And they took away (nerfed) a lot of bowsers burst movement options like KK and fsmash, they dont go nearly as far as they use to)

these are not neutral options. increasing burst movement on these doesnt make his neutral game any better. Mayyyybe the KK having more burst movement might, but not too significantly, its still got enough end lag to be baited out easily, especially without the presence of other threatening/safer conversion options from neutral (like a standard grab). It also lacks any relevant disjoint that will protect you from even slightly disjointed attacks. Bottom line is that he needs the presence of safer options to compliment options that require a harder read. without safer options, its too difficult to coax your opponent to get them where you want them to land a move like KK, even if it had burst movement.

Im not suggesting we buff up b UNLESS you nerf it first. Think of this like a titter totter or a scale. If you take away my invincibilty then i want better recovery or kill power, simple as that.

i took away two frames of invincibility, and gave you a neutral game, as well as an actual conversion option OOS. youre welcome. I think this is a terribly reasoned out statement though to begin with. its not as simple as "you take away A, so i get B." You should think about it more like: "You took away A, but gave me C and D, which affects E, F, and G in positive ways. Do i really need B? "

I wont say that my changes will make bowser perfect. He may need some additional tweaking, and in fact, some of the suggestions youve put forth, like recovery mixup/stall options, and a rework on fire breath could possibly be implemented after to fine tune his kit. The PMDT has done a great job at getting bowser this far, but i still think they need to address what at least we can agree on is his biggest flaw, his neutral game. The fact of the matter is that I dont believe you are suggesting things that are too relevant to his neutral game. If you can really give me a really good, sound proof argument as to why my grab and speed changes dont help his neutral game, I might listen to you. but so far ive made some very solid points that you havent rebutted properly yet, and i dont think you will be fully able to. fundamentally, they are changes that directly deal with his ability to garner a conversion more quickly, and thats a neutral game.

 

[NinthWonder]

An increased air speed can help his ability to threaten space easier. If you match it with his current speed he can get to areas faster and space out withfair or attempt to bait out an approach.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

THIS is a problem. lets give fox average, make his grab frame 9, and give him a six frame jumpsquat/empty landing lag. Do you think he would still be number 1? im going to highly doubt it. the reason wouldnt be because he cant kill anymore. He would still have shine spike, uthrow > uair, up smash, bair, and just an overall good edge guard game. It also wouldnt be because he cant combo anymore. However, it WOULD be because his neutral game would be delegated far below what it was with his quicker speed.

its a very hypothetical situation that isnt worth going into too much detail about, but it illustrates what im trying to convey. The problem is in fact that bowsers sub par stats on things like grab, jumpsquat, empty landing, and mayyybe even air speed DIRECTLY contribute to his poor neutral game. Up B IS NOT a neutral tool. firebreath IS NOT a neutral tool. Even with some form of projectile breaking attribute, its duration is too high to be anything more than a spacing/damage racking tool in staggered situations. you will get punished by good players every time for using it in neutral, and with your suggestion of it, it still doesnt do anything to aid in situations where the characters dont use a projectile. probably the top change that I can agree with you on, even though nobody here has really given a grade A justification for it, is the air speed change.

There are a few general things that make a good neutral game.
1. Movement
2. the ability to cover space with attacks in conjunction with your movement
3. The ability to CC and deal with CCing effectively
4. The presence of threatening conversion options that result from you covering space during your overall movement.

Honestly, for these things, stats DO matter. bowser is currently terrible with 1 and 2 because of the holes in his stats and frame data (although he can cover space well, just slowly generally). he is one of the best CCers in the game, although hes maybe average at best at dealing with CCers (out of neutral, mind you). With my suggested changes, every single one of these points is addressed. He will have better overall movement, a better grab to decrease the threat of him being CCed more effectively, a more threatenting conversion tool (better grab), as well as an easier time landing his best conversion tool (side b).

If you add these things into his game, MUs like diddy, fox, falcon, and ZSS DIRECTLY improve based on increased movement, and an increased ability to land threatening conversion options. These are characters, mind you, that are NOT going to be using fire breath against too much (if not at all) in neutral.




these are not neutral options. increasing burst movement on these doesnt make his neutral game any better. Mayyyybe the KK having more burst movement might, but not too significantly, its still got enough end lag to be baited out easily, especially without the presence of other threatening/safer conversion options from neutral (like a standard grab). It also lacks any relevant disjoint that will protect you from even slightly disjointed attacks. Bottom line is that he needs the presence of safer options to compliment options that require a harder read. without safer options, its too difficult to coax your opponent to get them where you want them to land a move like KK, even if it had burst movement.



i took away two frames of invincibility, and gave you a neutral game, as well as an actual conversion option OOS. youre welcome. I think this is a terribly reasoned out statement though to begin with. its not as simple as "you take away A, so i get B." You should think about it more like: "You took away A, but gave me C and D, which affects E, F, and G in positive ways. Do i really need B? "

I wont say that my changes will make bowser perfect. He may need some additional tweaking, and in fact, some of the suggestions youve put forth, like recovery mixup/stall options, and a rework on fire breath could possibly be implemented after to fine tune his kit. The PMDT has done a great job at getting bowser this far, but i still think they need to address what at least we can agree on is his biggest flaw, his neutral game. The fact of the matter is that I dont believe you are suggesting things that are too relevant to his neutral game. If you can really give me a really good, sound proof argument as to why my grab and speed changes dont help his neutral game, I might listen to you. but so far ive made some very solid points that you havent rebutted properly yet, and i dont think you will be fully able to. fundamentally, they are changes that directly deal with his ability to garner a conversion more quickly, and thats a neutral game.

Bowser does not need anymore nerfs at this point, period, nothing needs to be nerfed. also i would love to know what you consider flame breath to be if you say its not neutral. It seems you just want to argue that I am not fixing his neutral and that my suggestions are not directly related to neutral. Instead of shooting down the projectile idea, you could have simply asked me to explain it further and how it would be a neutral tool.
Also, yea i think since fox would still have his tools aside from a grossly slow grab and jump (why you made it so slow to prove your point is borderline fallicious) he would still be really good and could still combat any character type (thats why he is so good, because he has TOOLS to be good).
Where i could enjoy a faster and further grab and more air speed and a faster jump squat. He still lacks the approaching tools so tink, diddy, fox, ect will still laugh at him.

Also how would the up B nerf give him a neutral game?

Also bowser's reach and burst movement nerfs (along with every other nerf) was outrageous in 3.6b and not alot was changed from that. Maybe you were blinded by the pretty new "koopa dunk" or the "partially reverted" angles or his "improved but still really bad tech rolls"


How about we approach this in this manner.

1. We all list 5 things we think bowser needs or wants.
2. We then address each issue without terribly boring lengthy answers.
3. We agree on stuff.
4. Hopefully bowser profits.

 

[G13_Flux]

Well, everything you just responded to me with ive already repeated over several times, and im not going to repeat myself more at this point. If you want to debate, you better be prepared to get down and dirty and explain your reasoning, even if it requires lengthy answers. The PMDT didnt design 41 characters to fit within the game by giving short, quick, simple, and easy to read answers to each other, like you would enjoy. I am curious to know what Frost | Odds or @cmart think at this point, particularly about my points on his current grab, jumpsquat, and landing lag. They may not really be permitted to say anything (i honestly have no idea) but if they can I am very curious to hear about their thoughts on bowser, or whats been discussed, especially since hes been targetted for so much redesign lately.

Take into consideration that there are multiple perspectives to consider. You cant just call out for change because it will "make bowser better." Think about the overall design of whatever change you propose, and how it affects the cast, and its place within a specific design philosophy (namely, ones the dev team has cited, that aim to increase interaction). This is where certain nerf-tweaks i have proposed come into play, and you would be foolhardy to just pass them off without thinking about how they will actually affect and improve the game.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I can't really give feedback on specific changes you're suggesting G13_Flux , but I probably can say that much of that stuff has been investigated already.

Bowser hasn't stopped being my pet project, and I'm not the only person on the team who wants to get him perfect. Speaking very nonspecifically, you'd probably be fairly safe in anticipating some more hard-hitting changes for him somewhere down the road.

I'll do my best to monitor this and other threads, but I'm already up to my armpits in classwork and dev team stuff; so if you need me to pay particular attention to a given post, it helps if you tag me.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Well, everything you just responded to me with ive already repeated over several times, and im not going to repeat myself more at this point. If you want to debate, you better be prepared to get down and dirty and explain your reasoning, even if it requires lengthy answers. The PMDT didnt design 41 characters to fit within the game by giving short, quick, simple, and easy to read answers to each other, like you would enjoy. I am curious to know what Frost | Odds or @cmart think at this point, particularly about my points on his current grab, jumpsquat, and landing lag. They may not really be permitted to say anything (i honestly have no idea) but if they can I am very curious to hear about their thoughts on bowser, or whats been discussed, especially since hes been targetted for so much redesign lately.

Take into consideration that there are multiple perspectives to consider. You cant just call out for change because it will "make bowser better." Think about the overall design of whatever change you propose, and how it affects the cast, and its place within a specific design philosophy (namely, ones the dev team has cited, that aim to increase interaction). This is where certain nerf-tweaks i have proposed come into play, and you would be foolhardy to just pass them off without thinking about how they will actually affect and improve the game.

Bowser is bottom tier, changing him to make him better is a valid answer i feel like at this point, I also noticed you didnt actually answer or address my proposal of point and counter point but thats fine. Odds already answered it better than i could have.

Instead of us arguing, lets actually talk about a change we can agree on?

 

[RosalinaSama]

was listening bowser's down b among the good moves an accident?

 

[tasteless gentleman]

was listening bowser's down b among the good moves an accident?

Its a good move, edgegaurding its amazing. When needing to grab the ledge fairly safely (i say fairly because there is one counter albeit is risky if mistimed) its there and leads to one of bowsers great ledge options (i can think of 4 right off the top of my head). Do a little shield damage and bait an opponent to shield a bomb and its a broken shield and usually a stock. I mean it takes alot of reading but i would consider it good. Its bowser 2nd strongest move and has heavy armour, I bait people all the time into challenging it thinking im gonna grab the ledge but instead i land right on top of them. Oh and did i mention it combos into up air? Yea it does that and thats usually a kill.

Im not saying its amazing, but its an airborne smash attack basically, just make sure your cancelling its lag or you will be punished.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

No Up B changes or riot ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ

 

[G13_Flux]

I am staying firm on the up b changes, but ive said all that I really need to say about it.

Down b is definitely a good move when its involved with ledge shenaningans RosalinaSama . TastlessGentleman pretty much described it, but Ill add that in certain MUs (especially for characters without moves that stall momentum), bowsers down b > ledge grab in conjunction with his insanely quick ledge jump can cover nearly all of an opponents recovering options. CF, roy, marth, wolf, and shiek are all good examples of this due to linear recoveries, lack of stall options, or generally predictable placement of recovery. bowser can usually force them to recovery onto the stage, which he can then punish pretty well with a ledge hop/ledge jump bair or side b. Pretty solid DI mixup, and he can cover space around the ledge quick quickly, and with armor frames too. Theres also the up air punish if you connect, like was mentioned, and thats typically a kill conversion.

definitely a solid move.

T tasteless gentleman , there are certain points and suggestions of yours that I agree on, just not ones that I think are 'The next step." I think the biggest thing is that were not agreeing on what will fix bowsers neutral game. The way I see it, neutral is all about speed, mobility, and the threat of certain punish options. You can have a character with amazing reach, speed, and general mobility, but if they cant convert well, then overall they wont transition to kills as often, and thus, arent as threatening in neutral (ie, sometimes you can afford to get punished). A very good example here is comparing roy and marth. marth is faster and more mobile in nearly every way than roy. he also has more reach and coverage on most attacks, including better damage and KB stats at that range. however, marth lacks a generally effective punish option. if you arent as FFer, where he can combo out of grabs, then hes not going to get much besides a tech chase off a grab. nothing else he has can pop you up for a combo, save utilt, which isnt a neutral tool. roy on the other hand, has dtilt. despite his inferior mobility and speed to marth, he actually has a conversion option that is not only safe, and can work in ways to combat CCing, but is actually devastating to a lot of characters once landed. its also not difficult to land from a grab, which is his other main neutral option. when you couple this neutral conversion with a plethora of reliable finishers (another notable difference from marth), you have a legitimately threatening neutral game. This is the main reason that people have generally considered roy to have a more effective presence in PM compared to marth.

now comparing this to bowser, he has nothing safe, and nothing that converts too well while staying safe. Thus, he lacks important tools (we agree on that). The question is what exactly does he need in neutral to convert and help keep him safe. i think from your perspective, you are thinking about ways he can deal with projectiles better to gain conversions, and also ways that his burst movement can be increased that will allow him to land proper punishes more easily. correct me if im wrong, but it seems like those were the most prominent things youve mentioned. from my perspective, those arent bad, but they need to be complimented by proper frame data. without the frame data, those moves cant be safe, which simply lowers the opponents desire to interact with you, and thus, you really havent accomplished much. additionally, certain characters like fox and ZSS dont even need their projectile to deal with you, they will literally just run circles around you until they can just scoot in and grab you.

if bowser is going to gain tools in neutral to help him, they need to be safe options, and they need to generate something. my way of accomplish this is to speed him up and improve his grab. now you have more effective movement, AND you have an option that can generate a proper conversion and is safer than anything else he currently has. This you seemed to have disagreed on, at least in the category of it helping his neutral in certain MUs which have been listed, and thats probably honestly my biggest roadblock to discussing anything more productive with you. If you cant agree with me that a better grab and mobility will help his neutral game, especially in those MUs, then our thinking is just fundamentally different in terms of this game.

my hypotheical situation of the fox without his mobility was meant to illustrate that a character that HAS punish and kill options isnt much without a proper neutral game. fox is threatening because of his insane DD, and ability to force you to interact by shooting lasers. Genius. come and get me, and im going to punish you when you do. With an anverage speed, and terrible jumpsquat/grab statistics though, his ability to garner that punish is drastically lessened, since a lot of characters can now compete with his DD, and any move into the air takes double the amount of time, which means hes much easier to punish. fox wouldnt be on top anymore, and he wouldnt have the tools in neutral (by tools, i mean mobiltity, speed, and frame data) to efficiently get the punishes he needs on the cast. If you think fox would be fine in this situation, again, i just really disagree. I think he would get pooped on by most. This situation, in my eyes, very properly illustrates why the first step to bowser getting good is to give him some proper frame data and conversion options in neutral.

if you still are adamant on those changes that youve suggested (burst mobility, anti projectile fire breath, etc) id certainly welcome you to elaborate a bit more. Just please give me a bit more than a couple sentences. doesnt need to a five paragraph essay like my posts, but i cant agree with you until i can see why you think those moves will be safe enough to get him proper conversion (ie. can they be baited out easily and punished?), and how they will help tie up the fundamentally flawed frame data stats that bowser has that bleed off into his defensive games and offensive games alike.

 

[Candypants]

Bowser is not as bad as he was in beta, but he is still extremely bad. The changes from 3.6b to 3.6full are basically a band-aid. He still has lots of hitboxes that just seem weird, his standing grab for one. His shield game is now important with the armor nerfs, and it's awful. D-smash is the new flame cancel.

tldr; The character is not rewarding to play in the slightest and he is total ****.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I am staying firm on the up b changes, but ive said all that I really need to say about it.

Down b is definitely a good move when its involved with ledge shenaningans RosalinaSama . TastlessGentleman pretty much described it, but Ill add that in certain MUs (especially for characters without moves that stall momentum), bowsers down b > ledge grab in conjunction with his insanely quick ledge jump can cover nearly all of an opponents recovering options. CF, roy, marth, wolf, and shiek are all good examples of this due to linear recoveries, lack of stall options, or generally predictable placement of recovery. bowser can usually force them to recovery onto the stage, which he can then punish pretty well with a ledge hop/ledge jump bair or side b. Pretty solid DI mixup, and he can cover space around the ledge quick quickly, and with armor frames too. Theres also the up air punish if you connect, like was mentioned, and thats typically a kill conversion.

definitely a solid move.

T tasteless gentleman , there are certain points and suggestions of yours that I agree on, just not ones that I think are 'The next step." I think the biggest thing is that were not agreeing on what will fix bowsers neutral game. The way I see it, neutral is all about speed, mobility, and the threat of certain punish options. You can have a character with amazing reach, speed, and general mobility, but if they cant convert well, then overall they wont transition to kills as often, and thus, arent as threatening in neutral (ie, sometimes you can afford to get punished). A very good example here is comparing roy and marth. marth is faster and more mobile in nearly every way than roy. he also has more reach and coverage on most attacks, including better damage and KB stats at that range. however, marth lacks a generally effective punish option. if you arent as FFer, where he can combo out of grabs, then hes not going to get much besides a tech chase off a grab. nothing else he has can pop you up for a combo, save utilt, which isnt a neutral tool. roy on the other hand, has dtilt. despite his inferior mobility and speed to marth, he actually has a conversion option that is not only safe, and can work in ways to combat CCing, but is actually devastating to a lot of characters once landed. its also not difficult to land from a grab, which is his other main neutral option. when you couple this neutral conversion with a plethora of reliable finishers (another notable difference from marth), you have a legitimately threatening neutral game. This is the main reason that people have generally considered roy to have a more effective presence in PM compared to marth.

now comparing this to bowser, he has nothing safe, and nothing that converts too well while staying safe. Thus, he lacks important tools (we agree on that). The question is what exactly does he need in neutral to convert and help keep him safe. i think from your perspective, you are thinking about ways he can deal with projectiles better to gain conversions, and also ways that his burst movement can be increased that will allow him to land proper punishes more easily. correct me if im wrong, but it seems like those were the most prominent things youve mentioned. from my perspective, those arent bad, but they need to be complimented by proper frame data. without the frame data, those moves cant be safe, which simply lowers the opponents desire to interact with you, and thus, you really havent accomplished much. additionally, certain characters like fox and ZSS dont even need their projectile to deal with you, they will literally just run circles around you until they can just scoot in and grab you.

if bowser is going to gain tools in neutral to help him, they need to be safe options, and they need to generate something. my way of accomplish this is to speed him up and improve his grab. now you have more effective movement, AND you have an option that can generate a proper conversion and is safer than anything else he currently has. This you seemed to have disagreed on, at least in the category of it helping his neutral in certain MUs which have been listed, and thats probably honestly my biggest roadblock to discussing anything more productive with you. If you cant agree with me that a better grab and mobility will help his neutral game, especially in those MUs, then our thinking is just fundamentally different in terms of this game.

my hypotheical situation of the fox without his mobility was meant to illustrate that a character that HAS punish and kill options isnt much without a proper neutral game. fox is threatening because of his insane DD, and ability to force you to interact by shooting lasers. Genius. come and get me, and im going to punish you when you do. With an anverage speed, and terrible jumpsquat/grab statistics though, his ability to garner that punish is drastically lessened, since a lot of characters can now compete with his DD, and any move into the air takes double the amount of time, which means hes much easier to punish. fox wouldnt be on top anymore, and he wouldnt have the tools in neutral (by tools, i mean mobiltity, speed, and frame data) to efficiently get the punishes he needs on the cast. If you think fox would be fine in this situation, again, i just really disagree. I think he would get pooped on by most. This situation, in my eyes, very properly illustrates why the first step to bowser getting good is to give him some proper frame data and conversion options in neutral.

if you still are adamant on those changes that youve suggested (burst mobility, anti projectile fire breath, etc) id certainly welcome you to elaborate a bit more. Just please give me a bit more than a couple sentences. doesnt need to a five paragraph essay like my posts, but i cant agree with you until i can see why you think those moves will be safe enough to get him proper conversion (ie. can they be baited out easily and punished?), and how they will help tie up the fundamentally flawed frame data stats that bowser has that bleed off into his defensive games and offensive games alike.

Okay I do agree with the frame data, range, and mobility. I do but i think about all the times i got forced to approach to get "camped out" and i wonder if a slight change in speed would solve that... I think that if it was air speed or something more than the platform wave land, i would say yes probably it would help. But just simple ground speed, range, frame data, ect just would not save bowser from the onslaught of projectiles from toon link, diddy, or even samus. And where fox doesn't need his projectiles, any good fox would use them to force the approach and then blast you with some lame combo into up air or up smash. So now that i explained pretty well my reasoning why just data and range changes wont be the fix all ill get into the up OOS option.

Now i dont think i understand you so i would like to ask, The invincibilty starts on frame 3? how much invincibility are you thinking? Does invincibility last through the hit box of the up b or? I feel like i may have misunderstood, but if we are nerfing up B in some manner, maybe give it 2% more damage and give it +10 BKB (the scale effect, bowser doesn't really need nerfs.

Now ill move on to the projectile.
1. It will have a speed just a little slower than bowser, allowing bowser to catch up and punish the shield or evasion.
2. It will beat out all projectiles except fully charged projectiles.
3. It will have low hit back and basically hit like Mario's custom fire ball in sm4sh (the big one that hits you multiple times) to allow punishes, follow ups, ect. It will hit 3 times unless DI'd wrong, 2 if DI'd right for 5% each hit. It will have fast frame data BUT can only be used once every 5 seconds. (to prevent spamming)

So basically an approach tool and punish tool. Very Neutral base and unique in the aspect of anything i have seen besides mario's sm4sh fireball.

OR

We can make a projectile Like game and Watch's bucket
1. bowser throws out his transendent flame breath BUT the change is, if a projectile is thrown at him, it will go into his mouth and he will eat it (storing a charge).
2. He can hold three charges OR he can combine the threw charges (like oil panic)
3. By double clicking Neutral B before or after the flame he will release a fire ball that travels half the distance of FD and will have the power of 1.5 times the projectile(s) stored and speed of 1.2x the average speed of the projectile(s) stored.
4. This will help prevent projectile use while still keeping the MU vs. swords, falcon, ect the same.


Next is the burst movement.

Its literally just the same as Bowsers KK sm4sh customs. Recovery mix ups. Keep both Grab and Hit box still. Maybe give it a way to cancel the movement forward? Sorry I can not say i put too much thought into because of Sm4sh doing it already.

That being said, im still all for air mobility and ground speed. Frame data, Everything you suggest. Maybe i was a little blinded by the Up B nerf. But i think i can get over that.

 

[Zach777]

I would like to see Bowser's l-canceled airiels get better frame data. I made a mod of Bowser that made dair a legit approach tool and boosted his overall air speed. Other airiels got landing buffs too. His neutral got alot better. Other buffs were frame 5 jumpsquat, bigger size(I miss big Bowser), and increased speed when starting a jump.

 

[Shellfire]

Despite the explanations of why it's good I feel like Bowser's Down B is probably next after flame breath for the main moves I could see getting reworked or replaced entirely.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Despite the explanations of why it's good I feel like Bowser's Down B is probably next after flame breath for the main moves I could see getting reworked or replaced entirely.

I would like it to punish a shield with a shield break or it to have way less lag. It seems so silly to put a shield to 5% health left only to get punished with whatever the opponenet can dream of.

I would like to see Bowser's l-canceled airiels get better frame data. I made a mod of Bowser that made dair a legit approach tool and boosted his overall air speed. Other airiels got landing buffs too. His neutral got alot better. Other buffs were frame 5 jumpsquat, bigger size(I miss big Bowser), and increased speed when starting a jump.

You have a link to this? I would love to try this out

 

[Zigludo]

just make him big again, he needs dat dere range on jab and fair and dtilt and he needs the big hitboxes on utilt and usmash for dem dere platform techchases...

I mean I guess you could just make the hitboxes bigger and keep him the same size, lol. but I just want big long-range Bowser back. the whole T-Rex arms thing is very bad for him

 

[G13_Flux]

Okay I do agree with the frame data, range, and mobility. I do but i think about all the times i got forced to approach to get "camped out" and i wonder if a slight change in speed would solve that... I think that if it was air speed or something more than the platform wave land, i would say yes probably it would help. But just simple ground speed, range, frame data, ect just would not save bowser from the onslaught of projectiles from toon link, diddy, or even samus. And where fox doesn't need his projectiles, any good fox would use them to force the approach and then blast you with some lame combo into up air or up smash. So now that i explained pretty well my reasoning why just data and range changes wont be the fix all ill get into the up OOS option.

Now i dont think i understand you so i would like to ask, The invincibilty starts on frame 3? how much invincibility are you thinking? Does invincibility last through the hit box of the up b or? I feel like i may have misunderstood, but if we are nerfing up B in some manner, maybe give it 2% more damage and give it +10 BKB (the scale effect, bowser doesn't really need nerfs.

Now ill move on to the projectile.
1. It will have a speed just a little slower than bowser, allowing bowser to catch up and punish the shield or evasion.
2. It will beat out all projectiles except fully charged projectiles.
3. It will have low hit back and basically hit like Mario's custom fire ball in sm4sh (the big one that hits you multiple times) to allow punishes, follow ups, ect. It will hit 3 times unless DI'd wrong, 2 if DI'd right for 5% each hit. It will have fast frame data BUT can only be used once every 5 seconds. (to prevent spamming)

So basically an approach tool and punish tool. Very Neutral base and unique in the aspect of anything i have seen besides mario's sm4sh fireball.

OR

We can make a projectile Like game and Watch's bucket
1. bowser throws out his transendent flame breath BUT the change is, if a projectile is thrown at him, it will go into his mouth and he will eat it (storing a charge).
2. He can hold three charges OR he can combine the threw charges (like oil panic)
3. By double clicking Neutral B before or after the flame he will release a fire ball that travels half the distance of FD and will have the power of 1.5 times the projectile(s) stored and speed of 1.2x the average speed of the projectile(s) stored.
4. This will help prevent projectile use while still keeping the MU vs. swords, falcon, ect the same.


Next is the burst movement.

Its literally just the same as Bowsers KK sm4sh customs. Recovery mix ups. Keep both Grab and Hit box still. Maybe give it a way to cancel the movement forward? Sorry I can not say i put too much thought into because of Sm4sh doing it already.

That being said, im still all for air mobility and ground speed. Frame data, Everything you suggest. Maybe i was a little blinded by the Up B nerf. But i think i can get over that.

what i was thinking for the up b nerf is invincibility on frames 3 and 4, hitbox on 5. literally the same thing as current, but with 2 frames less invincibility. IMO, the scale effect youre mentioning will be balanced by the pretty large buff to the grab AND jumpsquat alike. both of those buffs contribute to bowser having a far more effective OOS, to the point where i feel that having a frame 1-4 invincibility attack is just poor design. at the current, i think up b is another of bowsers crutches. with buffed fundamental options, however, its no longer a crutch. i dont think it necesarily needs a damage or KB buff after my proposed nerf (given its still very very solid attributes in escaping OOS and off platforms to ledges, as well as still amazing frame data), but i wont speak strictly against it either, since bowser should do a lot of damage.

for the tink MU, i will admit that speed alone wont help him, and i can definitely see how a projectile of the nature you describe will help. diddy too. however, in the case of fox, ZSS, lucario, lucas, wolf, etc (most of whom have good projectiles, but all of them ALSO have insane mobility), just the neutral b buff alone wont help bowser either, since those are characters that actually still have an extremely good neutral without even using their projectiles. That was my main point with saying earlier that i dont think a neutral b rework is a bad idea, but there were just more fundamental, less MU specific attributes that bowser needs in place before any other kind of buff will actually begin to truly help him across the cast. The other thing is that it will definitely need extensive testing to see if its potentially TOO effective alongside bowsers crawl armor, which is already pretty damn potent, especially in MUs like the falco MU, where literally everything safe about his approach options is mostly cut to pieces (that includes being able to armor through his dair at lower percents).

recovery mix ups i might have to agree on. mainly, he could probably use just a simple stall option.

just make him big again, he needs dat dere range on jab and fair and dtilt and he needs the big hitboxes on utilt and usmash for dem dere platform techchases...

I mean I guess you could just make the hitboxes bigger and keep him the same size, lol. but I just want big long-range Bowser back. the whole T-Rex arms thing is very bad for him

I hate to be the one that keeps arguing against what like, everyone is saying. so please, dont take offense, or just take what I say with a grain of salt. But this i do have to disagree on. The biggest problem that the fatties collectively posses is their large sizes, which adds to a bad defensive game. theyre just huge targets for everything, and dont really have the most effective ways of dealing with projectiles. the size reduction i feel was mostly an attempt to compensate for this, and leave him with less dependence on another old crutch of his: a frame 3 armor nair. keeping him smaller, and with more mobility keeps him further in line with the cast (for the better imo) and helps him avoid projectiles and attacks better without needing to commit to long duration moves even if they have a lot of range. The fact that bowsers moves were all long duration was one of his biggest weaknesses, and was the reason that there were so many lag cuts into 3.6b, and cutting some range was a necessary result of this.

the other thing is that bowser still has a ton of range on his moves.. fair is still pretty massive. his jab and dtilt still have pretty damn good range. up smash and uptilt need no more range at all, they are very large moves that posses very good disjoint, and armor (in the case of usmash) already, and not that much endlag. they also cover much of the dreamland platforms still, and the entirety of like, every other platform. also, ftilt is pretty godly in range, speed, disjoint, and damage. the whole nine yards. the one thing that DOES need range and disjoint is his grab.

i really dont think its range that bowser needs. he has plenty of it. and he definitely doesnt need larger hitboxes (check out dsmash, ftilt, usmash, bair, utilt, etc. in debug mode). its honestly just to have certain fundamental options and abilities patched up. aka, having a useable grab, a normal jumpsquat/landing lag (among other things maybe to improve mobility, which in turn increases his ability to land effective set ups). Thats at least where I think the start should be. other things like additional projectile countering capabilities and reworked approach options should come after the fundamental base in set in place.

again, sorry to play the devils advocate, but i feel I have enough relevant bowser experience to be very confident in where his real strengths and weaknesses lie, and although certain changes that are being suggested will technically (and at face value) make bowser "better," they wont neccesarily make him better where he NEEDS to be better. The more nuanced details I will leave to the dev team. Thats my opinion at least, and you may take it as you will.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

what i was thinking for the up b nerf is invincibility on frames 3 and 4, hitbox on 5. literally the same thing as current, but with 2 frames less invincibility. IMO, the scale effect youre mentioning will be balanced by the pretty large buff to the grab AND jumpsquat alike. both of those buffs contribute to bowser having a far more effective OOS, to the point where i feel that having a frame 1-4 invincibility attack is just poor design. at the current, i think up b is another of bowsers crutches. with buffed fundamental options, however, its no longer a crutch. i dont think it necesarily needs a damage or KB buff after my proposed nerf (given its still very very solid attributes in escaping OOS and off platforms to ledges, as well as still amazing frame data), but i wont speak strictly against it either, since bowser should do a lot of damage.

for the tink MU, i will admit that speed alone wont help him, and i can definitely see how a projectile of the nature you describe will help. diddy too. however, in the case of fox, ZSS, lucario, lucas, wolf, etc (most of whom have good projectiles, but all of them ALSO have insane mobility), just the neutral b buff alone wont help bowser either, since those are characters that actually still have an extremely good neutral without even using their projectiles. That was my main point with saying earlier that i dont think a neutral b rework is a bad idea, but there were just more fundamental, less MU specific attributes that bowser needs in place before any other kind of buff will actually begin to truly help him across the cast. The other thing is that it will definitely need extensive testing to see if its potentially TOO effective alongside bowsers crawl armor, which is already pretty damn potent, especially in MUs like the falco MU, where literally everything safe about his approach options is mostly cut to pieces (that includes being able to armor through his dair at lower percents).

recovery mix ups i might have to agree on. mainly, he could probably use just a simple stall option.



I hate to be the one that keeps arguing against what like, everyone is saying. so please, dont take offense, or just take what I say with a grain of salt. But this i do have to disagree on. The biggest problem that the fatties collectively posses is their large sizes, which adds to a bad defensive game. theyre just huge targets for everything, and dont really have the most effective ways of dealing with projectiles. the size reduction i feel was mostly an attempt to compensate for this, and leave him with less dependence on another old crutch of his: a frame 3 armor nair. keeping him smaller, and with more mobility keeps him further in line with the cast (for the better imo) and helps him avoid projectiles and attacks better without needing to commit to long duration moves even if they have a lot of range. The fact that bowsers moves were all long duration was one of his biggest weaknesses, and was the reason that there were so many lag cuts into 3.6b, and cutting some range was a necessary result of this.

the other thing is that bowser still has a ton of range on his moves.. fair is still pretty massive. his jab and dtilt still have pretty damn good range. up smash and uptilt need no more range at all, they are very large moves that posses very good disjoint, and armor (in the case of usmash) already, and not that much endlag. they also cover much of the dreamland platforms still, and the entirety of like, every other platform. also, ftilt is pretty godly in range, speed, disjoint, and damage. the whole nine yards. the one thing that DOES need range and disjoint is his grab.

i really dont think its range that bowser needs. he has plenty of it. and he definitely doesnt need larger hitboxes (check out dsmash, ftilt, usmash, bair, utilt, etc. in debug mode). its honestly just to have certain fundamental options and abilities patched up. aka, having a useable grab, a normal jumpsquat/landing lag (among other things maybe to improve mobility, which in turn increases his ability to land effective set ups). Thats at least where I think the start should be. other things like additional projectile countering capabilities and reworked approach options should come after the fundamental base in set in place.

again, sorry to play the devils advocate, but i feel I have enough relevant bowser experience to be very confident in where his real strengths and weaknesses lie, and although certain changes that are being suggested will technically (and at face value) make bowser "better," they wont neccesarily make him better where he NEEDS to be better. The more nuanced details I will leave to the dev team. Thats my opinion at least, and you may take it as you will.

I never had a problem with lucas, wolf, ect (the 1 shot then approach type of projectiles) because Dash attack out of DD tends to beat out those projectiles with no trouble. But i do agree they have the touch of death on bowser and i think a large chunk of it is his SIZE and he does not need to be bigger. Big is great, but not at the cost of being comboed out whenever im touched.

Okay how about no frames of invincibilty, it comes out on frame 3 and does 3% more (from 13% to16%) with more hit stun?


I also have some more radical ideas and probably absolutely meta breaking ideas. Like bowsers shell when standing and crawling (and Bair) functions like links shield when standing (projectiles clank)
OR
UP B is just cancellable, why not after all? Give bowser a shine and watch how the whole meta changes lol. Also recovery mix ups lol.

 

[Shellfire]

How often do you expect Bowser to be idling with his back turned?

 

[tasteless gentleman]

How often do you expect Bowser to be idling with his back turned?

It gives an option whenever a character is trying to camp you out, backwards wave dash downsmashes, crawling backwards, bair approaches through projeciles would be a thing also. Its not like bowser has 0 options with his back to the opponent (up b OOS is always a threat.

 

[Tobb99]

I know I'm late for this discussion, since PMDT has ceased the development on PM, but I still though I might share my ideas of improving Bowser.
I feel like Bowser should be a strong and tricky character, and does not agree with "make him faster, 20xx", but more of giving him more and unique tools he can use. So here are my ideas:

-Faster grab. (like stated above)

-Longer and Better Rolls and Getups. (this can make Bowser trickier to tech-chase, and having a good roll OOS can be good at times)

-Faster Spot-Dodge and Airdodge.

-Faster Crawl. (could help since he got armor on crawl)

-Make his move have stronger Shield-Stun and more Shield Damage. (this will make shielding against Bowser more scary, and maybe even give him some shield-break setups.

-Being able to slow down and speed up Up-B. He would be able to slow down, reducing the animation lengths, or speed up improving it's distance. (this would help his Up-B OOS, since he might be able to follow up if you slow down the Up-B or get a better position from it. Speed up Up-B can make it even safer, and help recovery). By holding B, you'd slow it down, and by mashing B, you'd speed it up. With this buff it might be reasonable to nerf Up-B's invincibility frames or make it come out later as discussed above.

-Better forward momentum on Koopa Klaw, like Smash 4 customs, almost. (With this he'd have short hop KK as an option in neutral, it could beat shield, and cross up, and make Bowser more scary in neutral). Maybe only have him get forward momentum on grounded, since it's there he's strongest.

-Make D-throw a chain-grab throw.

-F-tilt reflects projectiles. (really cool idea, just punch the projectiles back. Dunno if it's too good however)


A more creative idea:

-Adding a "rage" mechanic to Bowser. (I kind of think it suits Bowser as a character. Like he get's angry after being combod, and becomes even stronger, like how Bowser always get's stronger at the last life in Super Mario). He would get this at a higher % like 60-80 or so. Unlike Smash 4 were rage only makes you stronger, this could make a lot of his moves different. Most are stronger, but others slightly faster, and some maybe very different. This will make it more scary if you don't close out stocks efficiently, and can make more clutch of a character, and/or more tanky, keeping the lead. Bowser is also quite heavy so this would make him stronger on bigger stages as well, and not only on small stages. And this will also make other characters match-up against Bowser more difficult since you have to factor in the "rage" Bowser as well, and more to think of therefore.

Some ideas of what he get when he has "rage" are:

-Having a small hitbox when he lands, like Giga Bowser. But not when he lands with a move like airial or special, only empty land, and maybe wave-dash/lands.

-Having a small hitbox when he runs, or maybe when he walks, like Giga Bowser.

-Many attacks generally stronger.

-Make D-throw kill throw, like Giga Bowser.

-F-air sort of like Giga Bowser.

-Up-B stronger, goes longer both vertically and horizontally.

-F-tilt slightly faster, and has a 2nd optional multi hit dark attack as well.

-Bigger grab range.

-U-smash, able to do 2 in a row, like he jumps up and down 2 times.

-Jab is faster.

-Koopa Klaw has less end lag, and more forward momentum, like smash 4.

-Down-B able to get more height.

-U-air Slightly faster.

-Stronger Crouch Armor. Or maybe not reduce it's strength at higher %.

-Slightly faster Run Speed, Walking Speed and Crouch Walk Speed.

-D-smash sends opponents in a steeper angle.



One general thought I have is that Rolls, spotdodges, airdodges and jump-squats shouldn't be normalized. This could help balance the game, by making certain characters have worse airdodge or rolls. So a character might be very fast but his rolls might have bad frame data. I also don't think that all fast characters should have a quick jump-squat and all slow characters a slow, it makes it even more polarizing. But I still think that the jump-squats should be between 3-5 frames.

 

[Shellfire]

-Faster grab. (like stated above)

Not nearly as much of a problem as his ****ty grab range

-Longer and Better Rolls and Getups. (this can make Bowser trickier to tech-chase, and having a good roll OOS can be good at times)

A good roll doesn't mean much when you can hardly even touch the ground in the first place

-Faster Spot-Dodge and Airdodge.

I like the Spot dodge buff, air dodge buffs would be more situational as it's super easy to punish the ensuing helpless state, anyway

-Faster Crawl. (could help since he got armor on crawl)

Making Bowser scuttle everywhere all the time doesn't seem fun

-Make his move have stronger Shield-Stun and more Shield Damage. (this will make shielding against Bowser more scary, and maybe even give him some shield-break setups.

It's actually impossible to increase shieldstun without changing damage. Also, Bowser is so punishable on shield that it would require instant shield breaks to actually make his shield damage useful, but that would be cancerous.

-Being able to slow down and speed up Up-B. He would be able to slow down, reducing the animation lengths, or speed up improving it's distance. (this would help his Up-B OOS, since he might be able to follow up if you slow down the Up-B or get a better position from it. Speed up Up-B can make it even safer, and help recovery). By holding B, you'd slow it down, and by mashing B, you'd speed it up. With this buff it might be reasonable to nerf Up-B's invincibility frames or make it come out later as discussed above.

He already has some control over the horizontal movement of Up-B. If you mean allowing him to cancel it earlier, I think that's a good idea as well and have suggested it, myself.

-Better forward momentum on Koopa Klaw, like Smash 4 customs, almost. (With this he'd have short hop KK as an option in neutral, it could beat shield, and cross up, and make Bowser more scary in neutral). Maybe only have him get forward momentum on grounded, since it's there he's strongest.

You have to be careful with claw, it runs the risk of being so strong that all Bowser cares about is getting grabs, and we have enough characters like that.

-Make D-throw a chain-grab throw.

I don't personally believe chain grabs are a healthy mechanic and we already had the PMDT handing out matchup specific chaingrabs to half the roster.

-F-tilt reflects projectiles. (really cool idea, just punch the projectiles back. Dunno if it's too good however)

Too laggy, doesn't make much sense, and you might as well be powershielding or clanking projectiles of you're gonna be smacking them.

-Adding a "rage" mechanic to Bowser.

There's a reason this was removed from Lucario