• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

Plunder

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
862
Location
Port Royal
NNID
1337-7734-8008
Man people are really getting riled up about an obvious tier break (as if it really matters anyways). At higher positions the score differences have FAR more impact than lower positions, and also there is not such a large consensus like Fox gets for any other position on the tier list. So let's not compare apples and oranges.

The deviation is quite apparent among both lists. Really it always has been since the last list (even among top players), it's more surprising that it's not already a thing. Fox is the only character that you can be confident in saying "He has no losing or unfavorable MUs". Just because he'd be alone in a tier doesn't mean you have to assume it's as substantial as Metaknight's SS tier in Brawl.
 
Last edited:

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
Man people are really getting riled up about an obvious tier break (as if it really matters anyways). At higher positions the score differences have FAR more impact than lower positions, and also there is not such a large consensus like Fox gets for any other position on the tier list. So let's not compare apples and oranges.

The deviation is quite apparent among both lists. Really it always has been since the last list (even among top players), it's more surprising that it's not already a thing. Fox is the only character that you can be confident in saying "He has no losing or unfavorable MUs". Just because he'd be alone in a tier doesn't mean you have to assume it's as substantial as Metaknight's SS tier in Brawl.
The problem is that most people aren't ranking Fox as being in his own tier. The connotation of ranking him as such goes against the consensus made by a the community in this "community" driven tier list.

Most authorities would also argue that Marth or Falco don't have losing matchups, either. But that's besides the main point.
 

EthereaL

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Messages
347
Location
Lost in Thought
In what world does Marth have an ideal weight for combo escapes?
Out of the mentioned characters, he has the best weight for escaping combos outside of Jigglypuff or Peach.

Edit: Marth is the only character in the game with a favored match-up against Fox, and his former primary weaknesses have been mitigated due to to the advancing of his tool set.
 
Last edited:

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
Out of the mentioned characters, he has the best weight for escaping combos outside of Jigglypuff or Peach.

Edit: Marth is the only character in the game with a favored match-up against Fox, and his former primary weaknesses have been mitigated due to to the advancing of his tool set.
I mean you say he has the best weight other than two characters but he still gets combo'd to death by every character on that list for the most part, so that point is pretty silly. His recovery is okay but not the best, especially considering his get up options from the ledge aren't as good as other characters'. Saying he has a positive match up vs Fox is at best a controversial opinion.

You seem to glaze past Marth's struggles and tout his strong points, and even with his strong points he isn't objectively outclassing Fox, Falco, and Sheik in any of them but range.
 
Last edited:

EddyBearr

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,202
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
EthereaL EthereaL Using your own metric (partially expanded upon), with neutral game being #1 and the rest being pretty comparable.

1: Neutral game
1-A: Movement
1-B: Zoning/controlling tools (hitboxes or threatened hitboxes)
2: Defense
3: Recovery
4: Edge-guarding
5: Punish Game
5-A: Reaction or Option Coverage
5-B: Guaranteed combos
5-C: Likeliness of KO coming with a punish

Fox: Overall: 47/60
1: Neutral: 17/20: Godlike movement with great tools.
1-A: 20/20. Can not complain at all
1-B: 14/20. Lasers and constant threats in his zone.
2: Defense: 6/10: Shine is an unfair defensive tool, and being such a fast-faller allows him to often force mix-ups w/ techs during combos, which gives him an escape path. However, he is susceptible to just dying.
3: Recovery: 7/10: Fox has hundreds of mix-ups and the dreaded "Sakurai Combo".
4: Edge-guarding: 8/10: Fox can control the ledge very well and quickly punish landing on-stage. Likewise, shine and bair are fantastic edgeguarding tools. See Hax's edgeguarding.
5: Punish Game: 9/10: It's just not fair.
5-A: 10/10. Fox can cover it if the person can cover it.
5-B: 8/10: Fox has inescapable combos that are prone to mistakes.
5-C: 9/10: Fox leads everything into a KO.

Falco: Overall: 43/60
1: Neutral: 16/20: Really good but can be turned on the Falco player
1-A: 14/20. It's sub-par
1-B: 18/20. Lasers, auto-cancelling, range.. it's just not fair.
2: Defense: 7/10: His shine is slightly worse but his crouch-cancel is far better.
3: Recovery: 6/10: Less horizontal distance than fox (thus easier to edgeguard) but can be faster than fox.
4: Edge-guarding: 6/10: His edgeguarding is very solid but his shine isn't foxes and he's slightly slower.
5: Punish Game: 8/10: It's almost as unfair as Fox
5-A: 8/10: Falco has suitable tools to cover most options, but isn't fox-speed for chasing.
5-B: 8/10: Not as inescapable as foxes but far less prone to mistakes.
5-C: 8/10: Falco should have no trouble getting KO's.

Marth: Overall: 43/60
1: Neutral: 16/20
1-A: 18/20. Slightly lacking with jump speed & vertical movement.
1-B: 14/20: D-Tilt & grab threats, but Marth mostly relies on movement.
2: Defense: 6/10: He lacks a good "get-off-me" move, CC grab and good DI can get him something.
3: Recovery: 5/10: Get around his sword and he's dead.
4: Edge-guarding: 9/10: slightly slow at covering options but his sword is huge and he can "stage-guard" floaties.
5: Punish Game: 7/10
5-A: 8/10: Should be able to cover things, but may be too slow
5-B: 7/10: It varies on the opponent, which is a bad trait overall.
5-C: 6/10: Marth can have trouble getting KO's.

Sheik: Overall: 44/60
1: Neutral: 16/20
1-A: 14/20: It's limited but should be more than enough
1-B: 18/20: Sheik is amazing at zoning
2: Defense: 6/10: Relies on DI, CC grab, and nair OoS.
3: Recovery: 5/10: Take away her options and she's easy to punish.
4: Edge-guarding: 9/10: Only slight issues with floaties
5: Punish Game: 8/10
5-A: 9/10: Reacting to continue combos is Sheik.
5-B: 7/10: DruggedFox or Plup, but it is a reaction-based thing. Plus, floaties.
5-C: 8/10: KO's out of combos and in neutral.

Peach: Overall: 41/50
1: Neutral: 12/20
1-A: 8/20: Actually kind-of bad
1-B: 16/20: Float cancels, turnips, and threats
2: Defense: 8/10: Nair, CC, and floatiness, but somewhat slow. Gets a lot of trades.
3: Recovery: 7/10: She can be manipulated, edgeguarded, and has trouble on ledge, but she can usually try to come back
4: Edge-guarding: 8/10: Armada shows this
5: Punish game: 6/10: It's not the greatest but she can and does punish hard.
5-A: 6/10: She can do it but it's quite hard.
5-B: 6/10: Varies but not as good as Marth
5-C 6/10: It's acceptable.

Jigglypuff: Overall: 42/60
1: Neutral: 13/20
1-A: 12/20: Air-based and it's definitely viable
1-B: 14/20: Bair is pretty much everything
2: Defense: 6/10: She's floaty and has rest, but that's about it.
3: Recovery: 10/10: Almost the best possible.
4: Edge-guarding: 7/10: Can't cover vertical space, but otherwise is truly amazing.
5: Punish Game: 6/10: Not a guaranteed hard punish but has KO punishes.
5-A: 5/10: Can be very limited.
5-B: 6/10: Definitely has some consistent punishes
5-C: 7/10: Bair and rest, but no touches of death

Ice Climbers: Overall: 40 / 50
1: Neutral: 16/20
1-A: 16/20: Pretty good on almost all fronts
1-B: 16/20: Huge threats, desynchs, disjointed zoning, and projectiles.
2: Defense: 5/10: Standard tools, floatiness, and D-Smash, but CPU vulnerability
3: Recovery: 6/10: It's okay, but varies.
4: Edge-guarding: 5/10: It's kinda bad, there's a few techniques.
5: Punish Game: 8/10
5-A: 6/10: Can react to some things but not the best
5-B: 10/10: Wobbling
5-C: 10/10: Very easy KO's

Captain Falcon: Overall: 39 / 60
1: Neutral: 14/20: Almost solely based on movement
1-A: 18/20: Very good movement but kinda bulky
1-B: 10/20: Not the best zoning.
2: Defense: 4/10: Huge weakness
3: Recovery: 4/10: Huge weakness
4: Edge-guarding: 8/10: He has some plans
5: Punish Game: 9/10
5-A: 9/10: Plenty of room for reaction and coverage
5-B: 9/10: Plenty of room for guarantees.
5-A: 9/10: Fantastic KO set-ups.


These are of course my interpretations, but this is what your metric gives me:
Fox >> Sheik > Marth = Falco >Jigglypuff > Peach > Ice Climbers > Captain Falcon
I don't like it.
 
Last edited:

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
I mean you say he has the best weight other than two characters but he still gets combo'd to death by every character on that list for the most part, so that point is pretty silly. His recovery is okay but not the best, especially considering his get up options from the ledge aren't as good as other characters'. Saying he has a positive match up vs Fox is at best a controversial opinion.

You seem to glaze past Marth's struggles and tout his strong points, and even with his strong points he isn't objectively outclassing Fox, Falco, and Sheik in any of them but range.
Falco, Falcon, and Marth are the only characters I could see "death combo'ing" Marth. (as in, can potentially kill him off one opening).

Puff and Ice Climbers both have mechanics that theoretically allow them to "death combo" any character in the game so I think mentioning them is moot.

Sheik and Fox can get some fat punishes on Marth, but I'd say neither of them can death combo Marth unless they make extraordinary DI reads or the Marth player does something silly during combo DI like not properly holding in against shine and setting himself up for a gimp.

Compared to Fox, Falco, and Falcon, I'd say Marth is starkly less susceptible to combos. If we are only referencing the traditional top 8, I'd also say he is noticeably less susceptible to getting wrecked than Ice Climbers and perhaps slightly better than Sheik since she is much easier for combo for pretty much every top 8 character barring Falcon.

Punish list:
Likely to die in 1-2 openings
Falcon
Falco
Fox

Likely to die in 3-6 openings
Ice Climbers
Sheik
Marth

Likely die in 6+ openings
Peach
Puff

As far as Marth not arguably outclassing Fox, Falco, and Sheik in anything but range, that is totally wrong.

Marth has Sheik definitively beat in neutral, movement, and arguably recovery as well. I'd also argue that Marth has Sheik beat in the realm of potential punish game since he has so many absurd DI mix ups between his combo moves (fair/uair/utilt/dash attack) and finishers (tipper/up-b/dair). On average, though, his punish game is probably worse since he is generally the inferior edge guarder and Sheik has her reliable fair set ups and tech chase game. Getting that opening is harder for Sheik, though.

Marth and Fox are trickier to compare. Similar to Sheik, I would say Marth outclasses in regards to his potential punish game since he can kill almost any character in the game with one opening. Fox's punish game is primarily upward. His low percent punish game maxes out early but becomes very reliable at high percent. His only real way of killing people at low percent is a gimp but I'd say Ice Climbers are the only characters that should happen to at top level. I would also say that Marth outdoes Fox in neutral ever so slightly. They both rely on tremendous ground movement options, with Fox being more bait/feint oriented, and Marth being more passive aggressive/zoning oriented. While Fox's lasers are amazing in floaty match ups, his zoning is inherently weaker than Marth/Falco/Sheik because he has to give up stage to do anything non committal. All of his movement tricks, shine pressure, feints, etc. typically require him to put himself at risk. He doesn't have a Marth dtilt, Falco laser, or Sheik tilt equivalent. The fact Fox relies more on lapses in mental fortitude/reaction to gain his neutral advantages is something I think doesn't get talked about enough. Still close, but I'd give the edge to Marth. The two are primarily tied in a lot of areas.

I'd say Falco has Marth slightly beat in neutral and punish. Marth has Falco beat in recovery and movement. Again, relatively close in a lot of areas.

Personally, I think all of the top 4 could be fairly argued for number 1. Fox is the most developed right now so its just really easy to argue for him
 

EthereaL

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Messages
347
Location
Lost in Thought
I mean you say he has the best weight other than two characters but he still gets combo'd to death by every character on that list for the most part, so that point is pretty silly. His recovery is okay but not the best, especially considering his get up options from the ledge aren't as good as other characters'. Saying he has a positive match up vs Fox is at best a controversial opinion.

You seem to glaze past Marth's struggles and tout his strong points, and even with his strong points he isn't objectively outclassing Fox, Falco, and Sheik in any of them but range.
Marth is significantly more difficult to combo than any of the fast-fallers, or Ice Climbers, and arguably Sheik. I fail to see how this point is silly. Simply saying "he gets combo'd to death" is true of nearly every character, given a percentage range.

Regarding his ledge options, they are good enough so that players typically must allow Marth to return to the stage. They are worse than Fox's, but better than or even with the other characters'. This is based on maximum invulnerable grab/hitbox range from the ledge.

You mention Marth's struggles, and I'll ask you to name them. You also mention objectivity; again, as I mentioned in my tier-list post, pure objectivity is a bad way of valuating character tiers, as Melee in a perfect TAS world is completely balanced.

EthereaL EthereaL Using your own metric (partially expanded upon), with neutral game being #1 and the rest being pretty comparable.


These are of course my interpretations, but this is what your metric gives me:
Fox >> Sheik > Jigglypuff = Marth > Falco > Peach > Ice Climbers > Captain Falcon
I don't like it.
I like your analysis and justification. What you just did was use logic to come to a conclusion contrary to your beliefs, a common situation when people use analytic thinking.

Where we disagree is in the values you attributed to each characters' segments. For example, Falco's zoning is the best in the game (Laser, this is not debatable), and his vertical movement is unmatched (also not debatable). Yet you gave him the second-worst score in terms of movement, and only the second-highest ratio in terms of zoning abilities. Furthermore, you argued that Fox has more consistent, guaranteed combo strings than Falco.

Another example is that you rated Marth's zoning (his strongest ability in neutral) as the second-lowest. You also argued that, out of the top 8 characters, Marth's punish game is the worst.

If, once you think about those positions, you still think it's true, let me know. I'll happily explain to you in greater detail why I disagree :)
 

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
As far as Marth not arguably outclassing Fox, Falco, and Sheik in anything but range, that is totally wrong.
Well I don't know about totally wrong seeing as in the examples you followed up with you only gave Marth the definite advantage vs Sheik's neutral, Falco/Sheik movement, and Falco's recovery. And obviously it was an overstatement on my part.

Also let me point out that although Fox might not kill with three up airs off of a grab it puts Marth in a horrendous situation where Fox can easily get another follow up.

As far as Marth's struggles, he struggles a lot with coming down from the air, he struggles getting out of the corner/off the ledge, he struggles killing various characters if they get to high percent, if you approach with an aerial you are often susceptible to crouch canceling (SDI down/CC shine after first hit of neutral air can be pretty good), and he has a bad shield with OOS options that are fine but not as good as Sheik's 6 frame nair or shine. None of these apply to Fox for example who really only struggles when he gets hit, and every character still struggles in that situation Fox just happens to struggle more.

As far as your points Marth does have a very good neutral, but I don't think he clearly outclasses Fox or Falco (or Sheik?). His recovery/weight is not so good that it should be the reason he is the best character. And he doesn't just beat Fox. Actually, Fox is generally considered to have a positive matchup against every single character other than Falco and Marth which average at even, whereas Marth has a much more even match up spread (even extending into characters worse than him such as Yoshi (or link or Ganondorf? Don't know the current thinking on those tbh and they're not really important)).

Edit:
For reference with regard to getting off the ledge at most Marth has 4 frames of intangibility if done perfectly. The only characters with worse frame data than this are Zelda, Mewtwo, and Peach with Ganon and Ness tying (Fox has 15 frames, Falco has 14, and Sheik has 11). A grab will not come out in four frames. His aerials from the ledge are easily punishable with crouch canceling, SDI on the nair, or a little bit of spacing, and even if he gets up he is still in a corner which he is not great at getting out of.
 
Last edited:

EthereaL

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Messages
347
Location
Lost in Thought
As far as Marth's struggles, he struggles a lot with coming down from the air, he struggles getting out of the corner/off the ledge, he struggles killing various characters if they get to high percent, if you approach with an aerial you are often susceptible to crouch canceling (SDI down/CC shine after first hit of neutral air can be pretty good), and he has a bad shield with OOS options that are fine but not as good as Sheik's 6 frame nair or shine. None of these apply to Fox for example who really only struggles when he gets hit, and every character still struggles in that situation Fox just happens to struggle more.

As far as your points Marth does have a very good neutral, but I don't think he clearly outclasses Fox or Falco (or Sheik?). His recovery/weight is not so good that it should be the reason he is the best character. And he doesn't just beat Fox. Actually, Fox is generally considered to have a positive matchup against every single character other than Falco and Marth which average at even, whereas Marth has a much more even match up spread (even extending into characters worse than him such as Yoshi (or link or Ganondorf? Don't know the current thinking on those tbh and they're not really important)).
All characters in the top 8 except for Falco and Jigglypuff struggle returning from the air. All characters struggle to get out of a corner, except that Marth has the second-best "reversal" out of the top characters when cornered (Sheik). Marth does have worse OoS options compared with Falco or Fox.

You are confusing a good neutral with sheer speed of movement/aerials. Fox's neutral is significantly worse than both Marth's and Falco's. And, considering that neutral game is literally the most important part of Melee, that is a significant blow to his position at number one.

Regarding the match-up spread comparison between Marth and Fox,

Marth is advantaged vs, Jigglypuff, Peach, Ice Climbers, Fox.
Fox is advantaged vs, Jigglypuff, Peach, Ice Climbers, Sheik, Captain Falcon.

Marth goes even vs, Captain Falcon, Sheik, Falco.
Fox goes even vs, Falco.

Marth is disadvantaged vs, None.
Fox is disadvantaged vs, Marth.


Now, this is all based upon my analytic based on my previous criteria. My personal belief is that Falco is the best (Laser is broken, and the "powershield meta" that everyone talks about is countered by firing blanks), followed by Marth, then the Ice Climbers, then Fox. However, that's my personal belief based upon what I believe the eventual "end-game" of Melee to look like.
 

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
All characters in the top 8 except for Falco and Jigglypuff struggle returning from the air. All characters struggle to get out of a corner, except that Marth has the second-best "reversal" out of the top characters when cornered (Sheik). Marth does have worse OoS options compared with Falco or Fox.

You are confusing a good neutral with sheer speed of movement/aerials. Fox's neutral is significantly worse than both Marth's and Falco's. And, considering that neutral game is literally the most important part of Melee, that is a significant blow to his position at number one.

Regarding the match-up spread comparison between Marth and Fox,

Marth is advantaged vs, Jigglypuff, Peach, Ice Climbers, Fox.
Fox is advantaged vs, Jigglypuff, Peach, Ice Climbers, Sheik, Captain Falcon.

Marth goes even vs, Captain Falcon, Sheik, Falco.
Fox goes even vs, Falco.

Marth is disadvantaged vs, None.
Fox is disadvantaged vs, Marth.


Now, this is all based upon my analytic based on my previous criteria. My personal belief is that Falco is the best (Laser is broken, and the "powershield meta" that everyone talks about is countered by firing blanks), followed by Marth, then the Ice Climbers, then Fox. However, that's my personal belief based upon what I believe the eventual "end-game" of Melee to look like.
You cannot say that Marth has the advantage vs Fox. I'm not going to say it's wrong, but you cannot say that it is right as a fact when it is highly controversial and generally regarded as completely even. Marth Puff I would say is also not necessarily even although I'm not sure about that, but anyway Fox has a better matchup spread as he has a positive matchup against 23 characters in the game and even with 3 (including himself) whereas Marth is even with quite a few more characters (and in individual match ups Fox is generally considered to do better vs Puff, Peach, and Climbers than Marth).

On getting out of the corner, Marth is worse at it because he is vulnerable for almost the entire time and it's harder or worse for him to dash through/aerial/go to platforms than other characters.

My point about srurggling to come down is again, relative. Fox and Falco often times have an easier time coming down because at least they do it quickly and their dairs are much faster/ less committal. Obviously any character coming down is at a disadvantage.

And I don't know how you can say Marth has a much better neutral than Fox. Watch Leffen play at Smashcon. That at least is better than any evidence you have given so far which can be summed up as "Fox's neutral is significantly worse than both Marth's and Falco's."

edit:
I'm also curious as to how you view Marth as having an even match up with Falcon but having an advantage vs Fox especially with your emphasis on neutral. If Fox's neutral game is "significantly worse than both Marth's and Falco's," then what is Falcon's neutral? I'm not saying I agree with you, I'm just saying your views seem inconsistent.
 
Last edited:

EddyBearr

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,202
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
I like your analysis and justification. What you just did was use logic to come to a conclusion contrary to your beliefs, a common situation when people use analytic thinking.

Where we disagree is in the values you attributed to each characters' segments. For example, Falco's zoning is the best in the game (Laser, this is not debatable), and his vertical movement is unmatched (also not debatable). Yet you gave him the second-worst score in terms of movement, and only the second-highest ratio in terms of zoning abilities. Furthermore, you argued that Fox has more consistent, guaranteed combo strings than Falco.

Another example is that you rated Marth's zoning (his strongest ability in neutral) as the second-lowest. You also argued that, out of the top 8 characters, Marth's punish game is the worst.

If, once you think about those positions, you still think it's true, let me know. I'll happily explain to you in greater detail why I disagree :)
Falco:
Zoning:

-Lasers are a hugely powerful tool, but as I said, they can be used against him. It's a 2-frame window to powershield, and getting hit by a laser isn't the worst thing in the world. I think pretty consistent powershielding is fully within human ability (see Mahie from Europe). Tying for first with Sheik for Zoning is, I think, pretty fair; Falco's would be better if it couldn't be turned against him (it would be 10/10)
Movement:
-I agree it's too low (didn't spend that much time on it). I'd put it at 14 instead of 12. This brings his total up by 2, to tie with Marth & Puff.
Combo Consistency:
-I stand by this. Fox has guaranteed, DI-independent follow-ups and infinites -- good DI can get you out of Falco's combos. See: Leffen practicing 0-death waveshine combos on Peach, or Hax's combos on Falcons. It's easier to screw up Fox's combos, but they can go further, so I figured tying them was fair.

Marth:
Zoning:
-I differentiated between zoning and movement in neutral. Zoning refers to things like Fox's ability to threaten a jump-in nair and/or Puff/Sheik using aerials to just leave hitboxes in there. Marth has d-tilt and grab threats, which is good zoning, but all the top tiers except Falcon have pretty good zoning -- Calling it "second lowest" is disingenuous when 3/8 are tied for "second lowest" and there's only 4 total ratings. I don't consider it controversial to consider Peach/IC's/Sheik/Falco as better zoners with their ability to safely place hitboxes, control with projectiles, and with their up-close "zone" being about as threatening as their "max-range" zone. Marth excels in movement, not so much in zoning, imo.
Punish:
-Marth can't secure KO's as easily as many of the top 8, and Marth's ability to even combo them for a long time is variable depending on the opponent. I accidentally attributed a 7 instead of a 6 for Jigg's Punish game, so he's above 2 characters (though he was never "the lowest"). With inconsistent kills and inconsistent combos on some characters, I think it's fair to call his Punish game below several characters.

Making the two adjustments I made, the new list is Fox >> Sheik > Marth=Falco > Puff > Peach > IC's > Falcon which is slightly better, but still something I would disagree with.
 
Last edited:

Plunder

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
862
Location
Port Royal
NNID
1337-7734-8008
Too much good grammar to be a troll imo
Ah but you underestimate the modern day troll. They are cunning, intelligent, and often feign collegiate level writing skills to lure the masses deep into their tomfoolery.

Anyways, carry on.
 
Last edited:

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
Well I don't know about totally wrong seeing as in the examples you followed up with you only gave Marth the definite advantage vs Sheik's neutral, Falco/Sheik movement, and Falco's recovery. And obviously it was an overstatement on my part.

Also let me point out that although Fox might not kill with three up airs off of a grab it puts Marth in a horrendous situation where Fox can easily get another follow up.

As far as Marth's struggles, he struggles a lot with coming down from the air, he struggles getting out of the corner/off the ledge, he struggles killing various characters if they get to high percent, if you approach with an aerial you are often susceptible to crouch canceling (SDI down/CC shine after first hit of neutral air can be pretty good), and he has a bad shield with OOS options that are fine but not as good as Sheik's 6 frame nair or shine. None of these apply to Fox for example who really only struggles when he gets hit, and every character still struggles in that situation Fox just happens to struggle more.
Fox really shouldn't get those three up airs, though. With correct DI/SDI on uthrow and uair respectively, those combos are more than escapable. Even players like Leffen admit that Marth players just give him free punishes for not practicing good SDI. The upward limit of Fox's punish is certainly smaller than his fellow top tiers. He just excels at punishing mistakes from many angles and can nickel and dime you to consistent KOs at ~100%.

Also, I'm getting the impression you are just listing off stereotypical "Marth weaknesses" every new player parrots. It has always felt irrelevant to say Marth struggles with coming down because almost the entire cast struggles with coming down. Marth at least has counter, disjointed dair, and side-b stalls which is more than I can say for pretty much any non-floaty in the game. He by no means excels by having opponents under him but he fares better than most; even if only marginally.

CCing is probably the most outdated cliche you provided. High player Marths these days space their disjointed, high base knockback attacks. If any character is thwarted by CC at high level its Sheik, imo, but she at least has needles and grab.

OoS options are also uninformed. Marth has a crap shield, but he gets a lot out of lighter shield since his grab and fair OoS has so much range. Up-b is also 6 frames; but its technically 5 since the 6th frame is invincible. This means its "faster" than Sheik's nair OoS. Again, definitely not his strongest suit, but he has way more options than you are giving him credit for and shielding is certainly not the position any character should be using to win the match.

As far as your points Marth does have a very good neutral, but I don't think he clearly outclasses Fox or Falco (or Sheik?). His recovery/weight is not so good that it should be the reason he is the best character. And he doesn't just beat Fox. Actually, Fox is generally considered to have a positive matchup against every single character other than Falco and Marth which average at even, whereas Marth has a much more even match up spread (even extending into characters worse than him such as Yoshi (or link or Ganondorf? Don't know the current thinking on those tbh and they're not really important)).
Idk why you are saying/implying his advantage over Sheik in neutral isn't clear when you just said it was definitive at the start of your post. I also said Falco wins neutral so idk why you brought that up, either lol.

As for Fox, I provided pretty clear examples as to why I believe Marth has the slight edge. Saying you disagree doesn't prove anything. Unless of course you think that "Marth gets CC'd" sufficed as a counter argument; which of course assumes that Marths don't grab, dtilt, or generally space attacks.

I never really agreed with Ethereal that Marth's weight is what made him the best character or w/e. Just pointing out that his attributes clearly put him middle of the road in terms of combo defense among the traditional 8.

Marth/Yoshi is undeveloped. aMSa says its even, so assuming that is true, who gives a ****?. He still beats every mid tier and goes in on all the Mario bros + Samus; certainly harder than Fox does in those specific match ups. And I am convinced that only players who put all their stock in recent results/are desperate for mid tier x to perform well vs top tier x believe Link or Ganondorf stand a chance against Marth at top level. Like, the math of them even being fast enough to compete with a Marth who knows the matchup as well as they do doesn't add up before we even go into actual context. But like you said, its irrelevant.

In terms of relevant matchups, other than puff (whom Marth still beats), I wouldn't say there is a single one that Fox totally outclasses Marth to the point that he is a no-brain superior pick. Even Sheik is becoming questionable since all the Sheik's are learning the tech chase which is appearing deadlier than the stuff shes been getting off grab vs. Marth for the past 10+ years. Marth vs. Fox itself is a whole 'nother can of worms, but I would say that its pretty clear Marth has the edge in Bo5s since FD, when used correctly, gives him a clear statistical advantage in terms of expected wins and losses.

Edit:
For reference with regard to getting off the ledge at most Marth has 4 frames of intangibility if done perfectly. The only characters with worse frame data than this are Zelda, Mewtwo, and Peach with Ganon and Ness tying (Fox has 15 frames, Falco has 14, and Sheik has 11). A grab will not come out in four frames. His aerials from the ledge are easily punishable with crouch canceling, SDI on the nair, or a little bit of spacing, and even if he gets up he is still in a corner which he is not great at getting out of.
Again, you aren't coming off totally informed. Marth still has hax dashing, fair regrabs, neutral stand (2 frames of vulnerability), a semi- vulnerable ledge drop regrab, etc. He doesn't have incredible ledge options but he can take his time and demand respect from the opponent. Its still a situation Marth can easily turn the tables from and we've seen M2K do this all the time. Yeah, his invincible ledge options suck but he gets the job done.
 
Last edited:

pichuplayer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 25, 2015
Messages
230
Location
saffron city
so just having predictions here who do you guys think will be bottom 5 for me:
Ness
Mewtwo
Zelda (Zelda and Mewtwo can go either way but imo M2 has more pros)
Bowser :(
Kirby
 

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
Fox really shouldn't get those three up airs, though. With correct DI/SDI on uthrow and uair respectively, those combos are more than escapable. Even players like Leffen admit that Marth players just give him free punishes for not practicing good SDI. The upward limit of Fox's punish is certainly smaller than his fellow top tiers. He just excels at punishing mistakes from many angles and can nickel and dime you to consistent KOs at ~100%.

Also, I'm getting the impression you are just listing off stereotypical "Marth weaknesses" every new player parrots. It has always felt irrelevant to say Marth struggles with coming down because almost the entire cast struggles with coming down. Marth at least has counter, disjointed dair, and side-b stalls which is more than I can say for pretty much any non-floaty in the game. He by no means excels by having opponents under him but he fares better than most; even if only marginally.

CCing is probably the most outdated cliche you provided. High player Marths these days space their disjointed, high base knockback attacks. If any character is thwarted by CC at high level its Sheik, imo, but she at least has needles and grab.

OoS options are also uninformed. Marth has a crap shield, but he gets a lot out of lighter shield since his grab and fair OoS has so much range. Up-b is also 6 frames; but its technically 5 since the 6th frame is invincible. This means its "faster" than Sheik's nair OoS. Again, definitely not his strongest suit, but he has way more options than you are giving him credit for and shielding is certainly not the position any character should be using to win the match.



Idk why you are saying/implying his advantage over Sheik in neutral isn't clear when you just said it was definitive at the start of your post. I also said Falco wins neutral so idk why you brought that up, either lol.

As for Fox, I provided pretty clear examples as to why I believe Marth has the slight edge. Saying you disagree doesn't prove anything. Unless of course you think that "Marth gets CC'd" sufficed as a counter argument; which of course assumes that Marths don't grab, dtilt, or generally space attacks.

I never really agreed with Ethereal that Marth's weight is what made him the best character or w/e. Just pointing out that his attributes clearly put him middle of the road in terms of combo defense among the traditional 8.

Marth/Yoshi is undeveloped. aMSa says its even, so assuming that is true, who gives a ****?. He still beats every mid tier and goes in on all the Mario bros + Samus; certainly harder than Fox does in those specific match ups. And I am convinced that only players who put all their stock in recent results/are desperate for mid tier x to perform well vs top tier x believe Link or Ganondorf stand a chance against Marth at top level. Like, the math of them even being fast enough to compete with a Marth who knows the matchup as well as they do doesn't add up before we even go into actual context. But like you said, its irrelevant.

In terms of relevant matchups, other than puff (whom Marth still beats), I wouldn't say there is a single one that Fox totally outclasses Marth to the point that he is a no-brain superior pick. Even Sheik is becoming questionable since all the Sheik's are learning the tech chase which is appearing deadlier than the stuff shes been getting off grab vs. Marth for the past 10+ years. Marth vs. Fox itself is a whole 'nother can of worms, but I would say that its pretty clear Marth has the edge in Bo5s since FD, when used correctly, gives him a clear statistical advantage in terms of expected wins and losses.



Again, you aren't coming off totally informed. Marth still has hax dashing, fair regrabs, neutral stand (2 frames of vulnerability), a semi- vulnerable ledge drop regrab, etc. He doesn't have incredible ledge options but he can take his time and demand respect from the opponent. Its still a situation Marth can easily turn the tables from and we've seen M2K do this all the time. Yeah, his invincible ledge options suck but he gets the job done.
I don't really want to argue with you and I was mostly focusing on what Ethereal had said, but I think you're exaggerating the amount that I said he struggles. For example, I said he has fine OOS options, just not as good as the other top 3 (Sheik's nair is way less committal than Marth's up b, not to mention a more applicable hit box to shield pressure situations). But yeah most of the stuff I was replying to Ethereal not you, it's just mobile sucks for me since updating and I forgot to specify, so sorry about that.

The one thing I would like to talk about is Marth on the ledge. If he has a lead and retreats there that kinda sucks because he can command the space immediately around the edge and his options aren't bad to the point where you can just run off the stage and hit him. So you can't disrespect a Marth at the ledge, but at the same time in my experience a lot of players give Marth too much respect at the ledge because they are scared. This is very different from Fox who doesn't have a fair/regrab that you have to look out for, but you have to respect Fox's options for coming onto stage (also Falco). Sheik has a threatening ledge dash, a way to swat opponents away with fair, and an easy invincible ledgestall with a hitbox. Anyway, my point was Marth is often given too much respect coming from the ledge when his good get up options are DJ aerial and ledgedash or NIL grab/shield which are all vulnerable and can pretty much be beaten out with a well spaced Falco back air.
 

KarmaMN

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 19, 2015
Messages
5
Location
SoCal
Apex, CEO, EVO, and TBH5 are the biggest ones. Most tournaments big enough to have either over 1,000 entrants or a large amount of international players.

TBH5:
:peachmelee: highest placement: 1st
:falconmelee: highest placement: 9th

EVO:
:peachmelee: highest placement: 1st
:falconmelee: highest placement: 17th

CEO:
:peachmelee: highest placement: 2nd
:falconmelee: highest placement: 13th

Apex:
:peachmelee: highest placement: 2nd
:falconmelee: highest placement: 17th

WTfox:
:peachmelee: highest placement: 3rd
:falconmelee: highest placement: 5th

MLG:
:peachmelee: highest placement: 2nd [M2K]
:falconmelee: highest placement: 4th
Yeah you really can't go too much off of character performances though.. cuz armada is a god & legend he can win pretty much anything with any top tier charactern he wants. If you don't count armada (cuz hes the best player in the world) then the results go more in falcons favor
 

MitchBerryCrunch

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
40
Location
Ottawa
I said that because your top tier only has one character. Which is objectively wrong, because that would mean a noticeable gap between Fox and the rest of the actual top tier characters.
I said top 4 is separate from puff, peach, falcon, ic, stop being ******** (although i doubt that's possible for you). done talking to u, lmao. i cant deal with with idiot 15ers GOODBYE
 

EddyBearr

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,202
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Yeah you really can't go too much off of character performances though.. cuz armada is a god & legend he can win pretty much anything with any top tier charactern he wants. If you don't count armada (cuz hes the best player in the world) then the results go more in falcons favor
Without Armada for the undeniable majors of the year, relating :falconmelee:, :peachmelee:, and :icsmelee:

Apex 2015: :icsmelee: > :peachmelee: > :falconmelee:
9th: :icsmelee:
13th: ~~
17th: :icsmelee::peachmelee::falconmelee:
25th: :icsmelee::peachmelee::peachmelee:

CEO 2015: :falconmelee: > :peachmelee: > :icsmelee:
9th: :peachmelee:
13th: :falconmelee::falconmelee:
17th: :falconmelee::falconmelee:
25th: :icsmelee:

EVO 2015: :icsmelee:>:falconmelee:>:peachmelee:
7th: :icsmelee:
17th: :icsmelee::peachmelee::falconmelee:
25th: :falconmelee:

Paragon L.A. 2015: :icsmelee:>:peachmelee:>:falconmelee:
7th: :icsmelee:
13th: :peachmelee:
17th: :icsmelee::peachmelee:
25th: :icsmelee::icsmelee::falconmelee::falconmelee:

The Big House 5: :falconmelee:=:peachmelee:>:icsmelee:
9th: :falconmelee:
13th: :icsmelee::peachmelee:
17th: :peachmelee:

Overall: :icsmelee: > :peachmelee::falconmelee:
4th: **** ~:samusmelee:~
7th: :icsmelee::icsmelee: **** ~:samusmelee:~ :luigimelee:
9th: :icsmelee::peachmelee::falconmelee: **** :samusmelee::samusmelee:~:samusmelee:~
13th: :icsmelee::peachmelee::peachmelee::falconmelee::falconmelee: **** :samusmelee::samusmelee::samusmelee: :luigimelee:
17th: :icsmelee::icsmelee::icsmelee::peachmelee::peachmelee::peachmelee::peachmelee::falconmelee::falconmelee::falconmelee::falconmelee: **** :samusmelee: :luigimelee:
25th: :icsmelee::icsmelee::icsmelee::icsmelee::peachmelee::peachmelee::falconmelee::falconmelee::falconmelee: **** :samusmelee::samusmelee::samusmelee: :luigimelee::luigimelee::luigimelee::luigimelee:

Assigning values..
Ice Climbers: ~1.7
Peach: ~2.2
Falcon: ~2.2

On an interesting note, Samus had about 11-12 top 32 appearances in these events, with placings not too dissimilar -- this is with counting Plup as only a "half-Samus".

If we totally discount Armada/M2K and handicap Plup, then..
:icsmelee: > :samusmelee: > :peachmelee::falconmelee::luigimelee:

If we let Armada back, Peach is clear #1 of these.

I've done this type of thing a lot already, and I can tell you that that Falcon's 2015 results are actually marginally better than his 2014 results. Falcon severely lacks in results at major tournaments -- any tier list position Falcon has above even 8th/9th place would require arguments that include theory-crafting or matchup interpretations.
 

TDK

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
3,717
Location
British Columbia
NNID
GrayCN
Yeah you really can't go too much off of character performances though.. cuz armada is a god & legend he can win pretty much anything with any top tier charactern he wants. If you don't count armada (cuz hes the best player in the world) then the results go more in falcons favor
So, if we don't count Gods' results, then who's getting Puff results? Should we put Puff below Falcon too, because nobody's getting Puff results but Hungrybox and "he's a god so he doesn't count?"

Oh, wait, I got this: We should put Marth below Falcon because only M2K and PPMD have gotten T8 with Marth, and "gods don't count", so... Marth's results are invalid! The tier list should TOTALLY go Fox > Falco > Falcon, because you can't count Marth, Peach, and Puff's results!
 
Last edited:

MurphyPrime

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
238
I would not count Armada's results because he isn't solely Peach. Discounting characters just because the player is good is silly. It's hard to argue Falcon is better than peach when we have recently seen high level ( Top 8 consistently) peach as opposed to Falcon in the last few years.
 

MurphyPrime

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
238
I'm not actually discounting Armada's results, just saying what my reasoning would be if I did. They were like "you don't count Armada's results because he would be good with any top tier". Those results shows how good Peach is if he can win with her. You could literally apply that logic to any character and discredit them. The whole idea of tiers is rating which characters can be used to win Nationals more consistently. So if someone is awesome with a character and wins a National, then it shows that character has potential to win consistently regardless of player skill. I'm only a little iffy about using Armada's results since we haven't really seen a peach do this before, so it's hard to tell how much of the results is based off of Peach being legit, or Armada being a master of Melee. I personally think Peach is legit, but I don't really have much to back it up.
 

MudkipUniverse

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2013
Messages
770
Location
Seatac, WA
NNID
VolcanicAsh
man, that list was ****ing horrible. samus at #4? ****ing Duck salt. Yoshi at #6? freaking crazy. even without MU experience he is not top tier. #13 on my list.

well he did tag laudandus so it was prob a joke.
 

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
I feel like Nintendude has gotten fairly consistent top 8's at nationals (obviously not at Evo), Chu managed to make top eight at Evo, and Fly for second at Press Start. IC's are placing fine. Plus Wobbles is coming back now I think
 

EddyBearr

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,202
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
IC's have better results than any character below them and better results than Falcon. If you adjust for Hungrybox and Armada, then IC's might have better results than Peach/Puff as well. I don't know why people keep thinking something that can so easily be seen as completely false with a simple google search.
 

MurphyPrime

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
238
Is TDK Hax $? Seriously though, Ice climbers aren't losing relevance, but they have kind of plateaued. Any time you can relatively easily kill of a grab at low percents, it's hard to ignore the character. Hopefully with Wobbles coming back they get better results.
 

MudkipUniverse

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2013
Messages
770
Location
Seatac, WA
NNID
VolcanicAsh
there is so much crazy **** you can do with IC's that make their potential super high. In the future, people will probably get way better & maybe they could win a national?
 

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
If the IC's can work out their match ups maybe, but they kinda get screwed by needing to heavily outplay their opponents in several match ups which is not a great plan for winning a national unfortunately
 
Top Bottom