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CHARACTER DISCUSSION #7: YOSHI BBR MU Chart says: 0 DDD Boards say:Discussion is in progress. Can we Chaingrab? Yes, it must be Shield-Canceled
Cute but not to be underestimated. Yoshi has incredible aerial mobility, strong approach options, a strong projectile and an array of surprising tactics up his sleeves. Penguins or dinosaurs...who is higher up on the food chain?
Information we need:
-Both Characters Ground/Air Game Against Each Other-
-Moves To Avoid And How To Avoid Them-
-King Dedede's Moves To Utilize In The Matchup-
-Personal Strategies To Help With The Matchup-
-Stage Discussion For Starters, Counterpicks, And Bans-
A matchup that's near and dear to my heart, this particular one require patience, and above all, on key punishes. (Like everything, right?)
Yoshi's Pros in the MU
Aerial Mobility
Yoshi moves through the air with precision and with speed, which might get one to believe Yoshi is a lightweight, which is not the case at all. Aerially, Yoshi outspeeds us in every meaning of the word.
Eggs
Projectiles. Something that the King isn't too fond of. Yoshi's eggs are a very versatile projectile that can be ranged horizontally as well as vertically. If used repeatedly, it forces US to approach.
Egg lay
Yoshi's neutral-B move. We all know we have a refined shield, large and powerful, however, much akin to our Inhale, Egg lay completely ignores shields by being a grab. This makes sitting in shield much less safe. When you factor in aerial mobility and B-reversals, this move becomes an intense mind game and mixup, and if you're not careful, only leads to you taking more damage.
Pivot Grab
This will beat badly spaced landings EVERY TIME. Rising aerials will always be better than falling aerials (unless it's Inhale, but we'll go into that later) and NEVER DAIR INTO THE STAGE. Yoshi will pummel a few times, spit you out, and reset the positions as he sees fit.
Heavyweight
Yoshi is fat. At first glance it may not look like that, but when trying to net the kill, you'll soon notice, "Well shoot, Yoshi's STILL not dead yet!" Yoshi is actually rather heavy, not Dedede levels, but still, a weight to be reckoned with. This means we have to wait a bit longer for our kill moves to hit.
King Dedede's Pros in the MU
Chaingrab
Having a chaingrab on someone is awesome. It greatly helps Dedede out by giving him means of guaranteed damage at any percent. This is very important and is something you MUST learn on Yoshi, as it will be a good amount of damage in the matchup.
Heavierweight
King Dedede is in a weight class all his own, which combined with his fast fall speed making killing him a true pain without ludicrous killing power. Luckily for us, A lot of Yoshi's kill moves are vertical, and most of them are not very easy to land in the slightest. You'll be living to stupidly high percentages if you play your cards right.
Inhale
A move that's always been good but especially so in this MU. This move comes out at a speed that can only be described as deceptive, has grab armor, and stuffs a lot of Yoshi's moves. If you're above Yoshi at a 45 degree angle in comparison to where he's standing, his options become VERY limited, especially with you back facing him. Use this. Master this. Love this.
Breaking down the Match-up
The match-up has several fundamental points, much like all MUs. I'll be using: Stage control, Dealing damage, Killing, Stages, and Misc.. Five simple categories, in my opinion, to cut a matchup into. We'll go in order as they're listed, starting with...
Stage control
In every MU, stage control is important, as it will help with leads or regain from a lead your opponent may have on you. Against Yoshi, most of the time HE will have stage control, and be able to maintain it through the use of well spaced Eggs and escaping bad situations. At the start of a stage, Dedede and Yoshi will be at opposite ends (for the most part). Our options include approaching and (while jumping) Waddle toss. Yoshi on the other hand, can chill and pelt us with eggs while our rather poor approach game comes in. From far away, you simply want to walk in and POWERSHIELD an egg until you are just a bit out of Ftilt range. The number of eggs tossed at you can vary, as well as what Yoshi does.
Once in closer, both characters gain and lose options. We gain offensive options finally through moves like Ftilt, Inhale, and RAR Bairs. Yoshi, unfortunately, has plenty of options as well. Yoshi can still hit us with an egg at mid-close range, but more than likely won't try as it can be punished. He can jump in with a singular jump and use his retardedly fast Nair or turn around and utilize his annoying Bair. He can also double-jump quickly and still bust out a rising Nair or Bair, and he'll have super armor until he uses the aerial. Now normally, we can just shield such moves, however, one of his strongest options comes in the form of Egg lay. Yoshi cuts through the air like it's not even there, and can utilize Egg lay to punish foolish shielding. If he jumps past you, he can simply B-reverse and put you into an egg. This sets you up for a bad position as well as allows Yoshi a get out of jail free card. Spotdodging is very important for this Match-up. You need to learn the tendencies of the Yoshi and learn when spotdodging is your best option. Above all those options, Yoshi can choose to just DIP, and it's not exactly something easy for slow ol' Dedede to keep up with.
The important thing to remember is Yoshi's aerials get stuffed by our Bair rather soundly. So unless you are sure you can grab, remember to have your back facing him at all times. Yoshi can toss eggs from the ledge and grab right back on, which is works pretty well. Space yourself so the head of Dedede's hammer will be over the ledge to clash with the egg without causing you harm. The best position for us is to have Yoshi in is either A) Offstage and away from the ledge, B) Above us, or C) In our grasp. Learn to punish Yoshi's landings by learning the movement and range of his B-reversal and don't get too greedy or else Nair will kick you in the face. Always punish his landing with either a grab or Utilt for the kill. Bair works as well as Inhale, but the overall reward is better with the other two options.
When off stage Yoshi isn't exactly helpless, but he still has safe options. If knocked diagonally upwards and away from the stage, Yoshi can drift back onto the stage without his jump or any eggs at all due to his mobility. He can recover high, but this is rarely ideal unless we start chasing them with our own jumps. At any point, if Yoshi is lined vertically with the ledge, he can Ground Pound very safely and quickly to snap onto the ledge. If he's knocked more horizontally, he can wait to fall a bit, toss an egg, and then double jump. From there he has the standard air dodge, can throw another egg, or use an aerial. All the while having super armor on the way up. Yoshi off stage isn't easy to gimp at all. Smart Yoshis will recover from off stage rather easily, and the goal isn't to gimp, but instead to add on damage.
Dealing Damage
Now, using what I've mentioned from above (some of it was damage related even!) we do have the ability to attack and deal damage. However, the two most important aspects of this is knowing Yoshi's biggest weaknesses, and utilizing Inhale.
Yoshi's hurtboxes courtesy of the Yoshi boards
Looking at this picture, the weakness should be obvious. His nose and head have large hitboxes that Yoshi's attacks don't quite defend very well. This is his blindspot. Egg throw is too slow and very unsafe close range, and another of Yoshi's weaknesses comes into play, his shield. Yoshi's shield is unique in that it is just that, the only shield that's different from every single other shield in the game. It covers his entire body, meaning you can never shield poke Yoshi. It is very strong and will absorb a lot of damage before breaking. All of this is good, except that it comes up slower than every other shield in the game, making powershielding much harder to defend with in general. Yoshi's shield also absorbs momentum from attacks and will roll with the said momentum.
With all of this in mind, let's say Dedede uses a Bair. If Yoshi's shield is up and he rolls afterwards, depending on the roll, his momentum will shift with the attack. If he rolls towards Dedede, the roll hardly moves towards you at all. If he rolls away his roll goes much further away than normal. Yoshi, unless he sees it coming, can't powershield Bair, and if his shield goes up too early, B-reversal inhale punishes. Yoshi's best option is to get the **** out of there which isn't that hard for him, or, if we space our move poorly, he can pivot grab for free, so make sure you're targeting is on point!
So, because dipping becomes one of Yoshi's better options in that positioning, Inhale becomes OUR best option. If used correctly, Yoshi will have a hard time punishing (his best being pivot grabs) and we get to put him in the air, a favorable position for us. Turn around (hitting the opposite direction THEN press B for Inhale) Inhale works the best for this. So if he rolls past, Inhale will suck him up (and if he tries rolling away AGAIN, his roll is shortened because of the momentum deal with his eggshield) and turn around will cover most of the rest of his options. After spitting out Yoshi, standard air game comes into play. Though I like to try using Inhale again because if Yoshi's facing you in the air, it's quite hard to avoid it (INFINITE BUFFET).
Including that, when Yoshi gets in the air, it's time to go all out. You can opt to follow into the air as Yoshi is somewhat weak under himself much like ourselves. Bair, Inhale, and Uair work the best when chasing. Be weary of B-reverses, airdodges, second jumps, and Nair. Another option is to wait and follow under Yoshi to punish with a grab. Once again, it's important to know how far Yoshi moves with B-reversals so you can avoid with either a spotdodge, or move out of the way. If Yoshi gets to the ledge, you'll have to get creative with your punishes. If Yoshi chooses to land on the stage you now get a chance TO GRAB. Once in your royal palms, the true damage comes into play. Dthrow to the edge and end with Dtilt if Yoshi's at a low percent, if he's around mid, save Dtilt for the kill, if he's high up there, finish with it. You should be pressuring Yoshi once he's on the ledge or offstage.
This ends my first post. In my next I'll cover the remaining sections, stay tuned!
It might be a while before I post it
Remember, while this is mostly mechanics, it also represents MY VIEW of the MU, so it's not all 100% set in stone.
I've played with very good yoshis like Zudenka so I think I can give you good advices.
Yoshi will really have to space if he doesn't want to be chaingrabbed so, in most of cases, he will camp us with eggs. Powershield when Yoshi is onstage and when Yoshi throw his eggs when he's offstage, with a good placement, we can broke theme with the Ftilt.
The NeutralB of Yoshi is also so disturbing on this MU. Be careful how you use your shield when Yoshi is landing because we could be eaten by this move. so... how to punish yoshi's landing ?
Roll but NEVER shield imo, when get punished all time vs good yoshis.
I will edit after to complete my post, actually, I'm sooooo tired.
Okay TC,put Yar's **** on your mega-guide. I was gonna post somethin big...
but that guy just wrote the whole book!
I will say he does better in the air, and has a RAR tactic similar to ours.
His grab range is quite long, beats our inhale.
Remember his shield is the strongest in the game, but it can't stop our grab.
Got no advice for the eggs, but maybe this Atomsk video might help.
Walk and pshield eggs, and ftilt a lot. Yoshi has silly mixups but his grabs lose to spotdodge and his non grabs lose to shields, both which result in yoshi getting chaingrabbed.
F tilt beats egg lay every time. Between back roll, ftilt, and bair, it's really hard to approach a ddd as yoshi from the air.
I honestly think this is one of yoshi's more difficult match ups and I plan on using ddd against yoshi mains once I stop being terrible with him.
Inhale is not good in this match up. Yoshi doesn't shield/spotdodge much at all and those are what inhales main uses are for. It will flat out lose to yoshi's grab a lot of the time, or he'll run out of range and punish with an egg.
I'm going to cover both characters killing options in the match up because it's important to know what we have as well as what our opposition has.
Yoshi:
Yoshi actually has several reliable kill moves, his weakness in this MU, however, is actually landing them. Yoshi can kill with Fsmash, Usmash, DownB, Uair, and Nair the best. Usmash, Uair, and DownB will send you vertically, Fsmash will send you horizontally, and Nair hits up and away. Because of our heavyweight status and having the best fall speed, killing vertically is somewhat of a challenge to all characters until a high percentage. Yoshi's Usmash out of the vertical kill moves is the easiest to avoid as it's a slow move. DownB is probably the trickiest move on the ground to avoid because the first hit comes out very quick.
I'd like to devote a spot to DownB, because not only do most people not fight Yoshis, and the move isn't used often in matches, so more than likely most people don't know how to deal with it. When Yoshi uses Ground Pound on the ground, he jumps up forward, comes down, and creates two stars when he lands, much like us after a SDJ. Right before he jumps up, he has a hitbox that brings his opponent into the air, right below him, and then he comes down and hits with the strong part of the move. If you're hit when Yoshi jumps, YOU WILL GET HIT BY THE STRONG HITBOX This offers time to DI the move (it sends you 90 degrees) however, it creates its own set up. It will also shield poke if your shield isn't practically full.
Fsmash is a great move for killing, but it has to be used correctly. When Yoshi starts his Fsmash, he actually pulls his head back, which alters his hurtboxes (like when we do our Dsmash) meaning you're left to his his body, which is considerably smaller than the hurtboxes on his head. This means if we attack, Yoshi can effectively dodge the move (should you be aiming for his head) and then punish right after. This makes the move very effective. Outside of this...Fsmash is much like Usmash, in that it is somewhat slow and easy to shield. This move sends you in a horizontal direction, so it is a bit harder to DI and survive from compared to Usmash.
Yoshi has two aerials that are effective for killing. Uair is one of Yoshi's strongest moves when it comes to knockback, and has the potential to kill early. It also comes out faster than every single move we have and will be used under us, where we are at our weakest. If you're above 100%, when landing you MUST look out for this move, because it will kill you earliest if you aren't prepared. Yoshi can do this when rising past the ledge and onto the stage (though nair is a better option in general) to catch you off guard.
Nair is Yoshi's other aerial that can kill. Though this move tends to kill at later percents than the other moves, when fresh, it's speed can surprise you and can kill if you're at a high percent off stage. This can be used once we end up off stage or while Yoshi is next to us in the air. Just be careful when you're right next to Yoshi and Nair isn't too bad.
Dedede
Dedede's standard tools of killing are in play. The important thing to note is that when spaced properly, we can Dtilt Yoshi out of Dthrow at the edge. Besides that, Yoshi can survive to high percentages, so our best kill moves include Utilt, fresh Bair, and Dtilt. I shouldn't have to delve into these too much but I will for a bit. Dtilt is a good move to use on Yoshi when recovering because it lasts a long time and sets up for gimps when it hits Yoshi out of his Double Jump (this is based on percent) We can also use it out of Dthrow as mentioned before. When Yoshi gets into Utilt kill percent (low 100s) using Uthrow to set up Utilt is actually a viable option. Outside of that, you must put effort into following underneath Yoshi if you want to kill with Utilt. And last is fresh Bair. Usually it's not fresh, but with our chain grab, it should never be very stale. Use this as a kill move when Yoshi's mid-upper 100s.
Stages:
Picking CP's is pretty much by preference, but I will go into good choices and bad choices.
Stages to strike/ban:
Yoshi's Island: This stage is good for Yoshi because he gets extra tricks due to slopes and can maneuver on it very well. It should always be striked.
Lylat Cruise: This stage should be striked first and foremost, as Yoshi will wreck us on this stage. Not only does he get slope tricks on this stage as well, the platforms and tilting make it very difficult to get in on Yoshi, not only this, but the stage has a high vertical ceiling, making Utilt kill later. Ban this stage (unless you have a stage you hate playing on)
Stages to CP Yoshi to:
Delfino: A good stage for us overall, but good because most transformations make the stage smaller and harder for Yoshi to keep us out. It also has walkoff which are nice.
Final Destination: This would usually be a stage to avoid against camping, however, the length allows more chain grabbing, and because Yoshi's eggs arc, they are actually avoidable/shieldable with all the space FD offers. Expect this stage to be striked/banned though.
Other potential CPs: These are based on personal preferences, but some good CPs include Frigate, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Halberd.
Misc:
Might add more stuff to this, but here's a few.
-When a stage has slopes, if Yoshi DownBs into it, he can cancel out with a jump. This means he can do an aerial, do a double jump, or do a double jump and then an aerial. This happens very fast, so be on guard when Yoshi uses ground pound in the air.
-If Yoshi does rising Dair from beneath the stage and you shield, when the move ends, Yoshi can Nair your shield/attack before hitting the ground. Make sure to shield all of the Dair as well as the Nair.
yoshi doesnt have that hard of a time getting kills out on dedede and he forces dedede to approach but same goes for dedede not having a hard time killing yoshi and dedede lives to extreme % before a kill move works on him. the main thing to watch out for in this MU is how you avoid yoshi. yoshi can punish dededes shield with a egg lay, dededes roll moves him to far away to punish yoshi, and a well read side step will just be punished with jab.
