2 noob questions

[B_Smash07]

First question: Based on the fact that ny fighting style is based on using marios down throw and upper smash to juggle and then spaming arials, is mario or the doc better 4 me?


second: for mario and the doc, how important is the ability to wavedash in long strings?

 

[Gea]

1st question: If you like usmash juggles, Doc is better at it. But really... either? Just pick the one you feel like you are better at.

2nd question: Long strings? Both characters need wavedashes of all size for spacing and long wavedashes/perfect wavelands really give them much needed speed to apply good pressure games.

 

[Super Mari0]

thats the way i see it too but Marios juggling pwns docs one right?

i mean look at the UTilt from mario its awesome! but Doc has got more knockback and way better finishers

but if youre based on cool shffl and grab combos then choose Mario man...

but every1 knows that Doc is generally better than Mario -.- but yeah...Marios still the coolest

 

[mario-man]

then choose Mario man...

I demand 50 dollars for the use of my copyrighted name. LoL

Mario is waaaaay better than Doc. Plus he has more potential than Doc. Choose Mario fo sho mane.

 

[-PM-]

eh if you spam stuff and like usmash juggles be doc just because his pills are very mean =/ and hurt alot... i would know... >.< ouch lol

 

[B_Smash07]

i do think im better with mario. i jut need to improve my shuffl-ing and then im gonna start tourneys. novice of course.

 

[Gea]

Plus he has more potential than Doc.

Say whaaaa?

 

[-PM-]

well in that case CONGRATS lol docs a fatty anyways >.< ha ha but doc is better because of marios completely awful KO ability where doc can KO pretty easy only sacrificing a little speed and alot of recovery and doc's pills completely destroy marios fireballs.

BUT if you know how to play with mario you can tear doc apart but the match ups with mario are way worse then with doc making doc better IMO

 

[mario-man]

Gea, go view Maelstrom's guide.

 

[HoshiPuri]

1) They both can juggle about the same. But Doc has that awesome F-air to finish it off.

2) Really important.....

 

[Gea]

Gea, go view Maelstrom's guide.

Lawl Maelstrom would agree with me. Yes, Mario has like 3 frames less on some shffls but Doc still has more potiental. Please, know what you are talking about first before opening your yapper. D:

 

[Matador]

Please, know what you are talking about first before opening your yapper. D:

There was no need for that, everyone's entitled to their opinion.

It doesn't matter who has more potential, they're the closest dittos in this game which is why they're so close on the tier list. You pick who you like more, not who has the potential to be better; you can't really measure that anyway. Otherwise Pichu would be unused.

 

[Gea]

There was no need for that, everyone's entitled to their opinion.

It doesn't matter who has more potential, they're the closest dittos in this game which is why they're so close on the tier list. You pick who you like more, not who has the potential to be better; you can't really measure that anyway. Otherwise Pichu would be unused.

Indeed, but spouting off falacies about why their character is better over another should not be tolerated. There is a fine line between opinion and blindly thinking something. In fact, I said earlier to use who you want to use both.

Hell, I love playing Mario as well... but I know why Doc edges out.

 

[Marilink]

but I know why Doc edges out.

Because he's a ninja?

 

[Matador]

I know this has already been discussed like...a billion times...

But I don't see it, I don't see why Doc has an edge over mario. Mario's inability to KO is the only thing Doc has over him, and his KO ability isn't even THAT bad.. Mario can combo and recover much better. I know there are little things like Doc's Bair edgeguard and long(wide, whatever they say) cape that reaches under the ground that tip the scale, but Mario's Bair does more damage and his utilt off-set that. I see them as pretty much equal.

 

[Marilink]

I lean toward the Doc side of things mostly because of his juggling ability and Fair.

I also just happen to think he's a lot cooler.

 

[Matador]

pffft, the suspenders own Doc's lab coat anyday

 

[Gea]

I know this has already been discussed like...a billion times...

But I don't see it, I don't see why Doc has an edge over mario. Mario's inability to KO is the only thing Doc has over him, and his KO ability isn't even THAT bad.. Mario can combo and recover much better. I know there are little things like Doc's Bair edgeguard and long(wide, whatever they say) cape that reaches under the ground that tip the scale, but Mario's Bair does more damage and his utilt off-set that. I see them as pretty much equal.

In practicality Doc's juggles are just as good as Mario. In fact, really the only five things Mario has over Doc are:

1. More launchers with Fair
2. A spike of sorts
3. Better recovery (I include the walljump here)
4. 3 frames less lag on select aerials
5. Fsmash with more range.

Now then, you can kind of rule out 1 and 2 because they trade off with KO ability that Doc gains from his fair. Better recovery is there but not game-winning, really, and unless you are M2K, 3 frames of lag isn't that much at all. Oh, and the fsmash has its moments but it has a sweetspot that can be awkward for Mario and is still fairly stunted in range compared to other characters. At least Doc can use his Dsmash as well as his Fsmash.

Doc has a better defensive and pressure game with pills/dsmash, better edgeguarding and stronger KO moves, his own juggles that Mario doesn't have (usmash juggles) and more options out of a grab. Oh yeah, and a slightly better jab game at that.

Any decent player will tell you Mario has trouble applying pressure more than the other characters up there do (hell, even Ganon does better).

Like I said, I love playing both characters, and it isn't like either dominate in the metagame, but Doc does have advantages that outweigh Mario's.

 

[Matador]

Mario's Usmash is also a KO attack even on moderately high ceilings, not Doc's so much.

Mario can edgeguard almost as good as Doc since he can jump further out because he has the cape to lean on.

And I wouldn't say Mario has...trouble applying pressure, just nothing compared to Doc.

The pills are only better because the trajectory is more convenient, so it comes down to spacing since they have the same stun.

I also think Mario's juggling is better because his utilt and uair don't push your opponent away, but to a more preferable position than Doc.

But you're right, Doc's advantages are more useful than Mario's..but not enough to say he's better imho.

 

[Gea]

Mario's Usmash is also a KO attack even on moderately high ceilings, not Doc's so much.

Rarely because of hitbox/priority, and Doc has usmash-> fair combos that do the same thing. So basically Doc's usmash has more uses than Mario's.

Mario can edgeguard almost as good as Doc since he can jump further out because he has the cape to lean on.

His Up + B and snap are less and his time getting back to the edge takes longer if you choose to use the cape. If you need to get out that far, edgehogging is better. Mario can edgeguard almost as good as Doc but he requires more things like leaving the stage for some capes and more precise bairing. That is still in Doc's favor.

And I wouldn't say Mario has...trouble applying pressure, just nothing compared to Doc.

Which is what we are currently discussing. Besides, looking at it competitively yes... Mario does.

The pills are only better because the trajectory is more convenient, so it comes down to spacing since they have the same stun.

That's correct... your point? Pills can stop jiggs and Peach much better than fireballs can. This goes for many matchups and it really gives Doc the pressure and defensive game Mario can lack at times. Both can rush after their projectiles, but the spacing is much harder for Mario and the opponent can sh over fireballs easier.

I also think Mario's juggling is better because his utilt and uair don't push your opponent away, but to a more preferable position than Doc.

Doc's uair hits them away less which leads to more uairs easier, and utilt at an angle leads into uairs towards the edge, not just an upwards combo that just ends in the middle of FD. Movement is good if you can catch up with it, which Doc can. Mario's is better to continue grab combos.

But you're right, Doc's advantages are more useful than Mario's..but not enough to say he's better imho.

Doc has better advantages but isn't a better character? Uhh...

 

[mario-man]

Doc sux. That's all that needs to be said.

 

[Matador]

The need for more precision with Mario's Bairs for edgeguarding and Usmash for KOs and fireballs for pressure doesn't make his worse than Doc's, that just proves that he's easier to use. And what you're saying about Uairs and utilts suggests that Doc has better comboing...which I know you didn't mean.

I never said Doc had better advantages, just more useful and preferable to a person picking their character. Someone choosing between Doc and Mario would probably pick Doc because KOing is much easier than comboing.

 

[Gea]

The need for more precision with Mario's Bairs for edgeguarding and Usmash for KOs and fireballs for pressure doesn't make his worse than Doc's, that just proves that he's easier to use.

Uhh... Doc's bair and pills have a better trajectory that give your opponent less chances to get around them. That makes them better. You can dance around it all you want, but it is true. You *need* the strong hit with Mario's bair more often than you do Doc's.

Mario's usmash only works for KOs and as far as I can think of, juggles on FFers at like 0%. You're right, it does give Mario a KO option, but it isn't exactly the way Mario usually gets KOs. For a reason.

And what you're saying about Uairs and utilts suggests that Doc has better comboing...which I know you didn't mean.

Hmm. He at least matches Mario's combos. Yes, I went there. They just work a bit differently.

I never said Doc had better advantages, just more useful and preferable to a person picking their character. Someone choosing between Doc and Mario would probably pick Doc because KOing is much easier than comboing.

.... Please... please someone else explain to him the fallacy of these statements. Being more useful means you are advantagous.... which means you have advantages. I want people to choose who they want to, but all this blind fanboyism has to stop.

 

[Matador]

Blind...fanboyism...right. Another unnecessary statement. I honestly don't think you're capable of having a conversation without trying to insult someone, indirectly or otherwise. Me trying to persuade you or you trying to dissuade me through typing isn't going to work, so I'm done right here.

 

[Gea]

Doc sux. That's all that needs to be said.

^^^ These are the comments I was referring to, actually. I consider it warranted.

Though you had some misinformation there.

 

[mario-man]

I'm not showing blind fanboyism. Doc does suck. Mario is better. I've used both and found it to be the truth. I suppose there is obviously people who disagree, but the truth is that Mario IS better on an advanced level. Like I said before, read Maelstrom's Guide to Italian Plumbing.

 

[Matador]

I apologize, I thought you were referring to me. I think/hope Mario-man was joking when he said that...

I still don't think I'm capable of persuading you, however, without actually turning on a gamecube and trying to show you.

Edit: Okay....he wasn't joking. Mario-man, Doc and Mario are too similar for one to suck without the other one being equally as bad. I don't see where you're getting at.

 

[Gea]

I'm not showing blind fanboyism. Doc does suck. Mario is better. I've used both and found it to be the truth. I suppose there is obviously people who disagree, but the truth is that Mario IS better on an advanced level. Like I said before, read Maelstrom's Guide to Italian Plumbing.

Like I said before, if Maelstrom was actually in this topic he'd agree with me. Do have any sort of basis for your statements besides "I ME ME ME I ME I ME I I I I"? How did you find this to be the truth? There are players who prefer Pichu over Pika or Roy over Marth... that doesn't make Pichu or Roy better than their counterparts.

I apologize, I thought you were referring to me. I think/hope Mario-man was joking when he said that...

I still don't think I'm capable of persuading you, however, without actually turning on a gamecube and trying to show you.

I use both Mario and Doc. I know what both are capable of, and I even would rather be Mario in certain matchups (Peach, namely). That doesn't mean I really think that Mario is overall better than Doc. It isn't a huge gap or anything either, but I do think Doc is the better character and I'd personally like to think I have the evidence to back up my claim.

But keep playing Mario, he's cool too.

 

[mario-man]

Did you read his thread or not. Don't try to dodge it. If you read it, you will clearly see that he thinks Doc is better on a n00bish level, and Mario is better on an advanced level. If you're not going to read it, then I'm wasting my time here.

 

[Matador]

I don't think he meant it the way you're interpreting it. If he did then I'll have to disagree. Even so, Mario and Doc are too alike for one to suck and the other not to.

 

[Gea]

Did you read his thread or not. Don't try to dodge it. If you read it, you will clearly see that he thinks Doc is better on a n00bish level, and Mario is better on an advanced level. If you're not going to read it, then I'm wasting my time here.

Okay, let me take a slightly different approach:

Maelstrom does not make facts about this game. I'm *well* aware of what he believes seeing as I have posted alongside Maelstrom for over a year (wow, a year and a half? Something like that) already.

There is a reason Doc is above Mario on the tierlist and has been. No, the tier list is not absolute fact, but there are many more smashers looking at this more objectively than you are. Instead of linking me to something that for all you know I could have actually written (I didn't, don't worry) why don't you attempt to formulate your own basis for your belief?

Matador definitely presented his belief in the correct manner, I just happen to correct him on a few things and disagree on some others. However I respect the fact he is putting intelligence into the discussion. Especially when I know I can some condescending at times (being firm in your beliefs can do that.)

 

[mario-man]

Okay, well I'll take your approach. I'll be fair.

I think Mario is better because of his ability to combo. DOC CANNOT COMBO WORTH CRAP!!!!! Mario is just more flashy, and therefore is better on advanced levels. I don't frankly care about how Doc's F-air is a KO move. If you really want to take that path, then Mario's is aswell. What can I say, F-air spikes FTW

 

[Gea]

Okay, well I'll take your approach. I'll be fair.

I think Mario is better because of his ability to combo. DOC CANNOT COMBO WORTH CRAP!!!!! Mario is just more flashy, and therefore is better on advanced levels. I don't frankly care about how Doc's F-air is a KO move. If you really want to take that path, then Mario's is aswell. What can I say, F-air spikes FTW

Show me a combo that Mario can do that Doc can't in some shape or form. Doc can still uair juggle, use the utilt out of a downthrow, and do things like downthrow to fsmash. Doc's Uair can actually be *more* useful for comboing at times because it doesn't knock them as far away. Considering most players can't even play at the speed to ultilize those three frames perfectly, it is a moot point, especially if we want to factor in perfection, getting hit farther away with perfect DI means 3 frames aren't going to allow you to follow up.

Just because *you* can't combo with Doc worth crap doesn't mean Doc can't combo worth crap. Most "Mario Combos" I see people talk about involve too many fairs anyways... which guess what? It isn't a combo. Escapable and easier to punish than it should be.

Mario's "spike" can be meteor-cancelled. Yeah, people aren't going to every time, but it isn't really a end all. I already covered this, though.

And since when was being flashy being a good player? Lawls. Ganon sure isn't flashy and he does really well. Playing effectively is what matters most.

 

[Matador]

Mario-man, Doc can combo fine, being flashy doesn't make you advanced and Mario's Fair isn't just for KOing. If that's the only way you use it then Doc's is much better since Mario's can be meteor cancelled..

Edit: Nuggets...he beat me to it.

 

[mario-man]

I don't really use his F-air for spikes anymore. LOL

Oh, and Doc's u-tilt pushes people away so it's hard to follow it up. Mario's is more of a juggler so it's easy to follow up.

 

[Matador]

Nor do I, only on DK and luigi really.

 

[Gea]

I don't really use his F-air for spikes anymore. LOL

Oh, and Doc's u-tilt pushes people away so it's hard to follow it up. Mario's is more of a juggler so it's easy to follow up.

Doc's gives you the momentum to carry your uair juggles to the edge. The disadvantage is when Dthrow comboing it isn't as useful. Doesn't break either character nor give either a definitive edge, and both are basically used for the same thing. Doc's doesn't have to push wildly away if you space it correctly.

 

[mario-man]

Even if I can't prove it, I still think Mario is better, so leave me alone would ya. LOL

 

[Gea]

Even if I can't prove it, I still think Mario is better, so leave me alone would ya. LOL

>.o The world is flat! The world is flat!

 

[mario-man]

I can't prove it. That doesn't mean somebody else can't.