2.6 Ike thread

[Mono.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5p6qpG3bLA

 

[Nguz95]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5p6qpG3bLA

Nair, fair, and "Prepare yourself!" before a fully charged fsmash means the new Ike is money. Not quite as cash as 2.1, but still money.

 

[SpiderMad]

Nair being super faster means it replaces Bair/Up-air not only for breaking out of combos, but for platform drop aerials as well: and which is lame because I didn't want him to be another Nair centered character especially since Nair can't be done with the C-stick (unless you change your control scheme like metroid) making me like it less for lack of aerial control. When you'd get hit up high and about to be comboed more your best bet was Up-air and fastfall through them since it was his earliest aerial after bair but lasted long, now Nair replaces that entirely and some of that creativity is lost. Dair also seems to come out a little sooner making it able to get the hit box out for platform dropping on BF's platforms which I'm not sure if he was able to in 2.5.

Also with Ike having 3 WJs now I felt like revisiting his Wavebounce/WJ Wavebounce stuff, especially since no one has made use of it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c_iPK38R1o

If u can't wavebounce watch this (If there's a better hand video of how to do it please tell me)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=J0sqGLVvFEI#t=199s

 

[Mono.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c_iPK38R1o

reported for sexual content

 

[DMG]

You guys haven't played him before or seen him play have you? The man tries harder than God on speed and plays like fire ants are all over his fingers and he needs to shake them off by moving fast.

 

[Nguz95]

You guys haven't played him before or seen him play have you? The man tries harder than God on speed and plays like fire ants are all over his fingers and he needs to shake them off by moving fast.

Metroid?

SpiderMad, I can't tell if you like 2.6 Ike or not... You seem bothered by some of his changes, but you also seem to have put a little time into him.

 

[DMG]

I meant spidermad

look at his videos he doesn't stop

 

[Comeback Kid]

Nair being super faster means it replaces Bair/Up-air not only for breaking out of combos, but for platform drop aerials as well: and which is lame because I didn't want him to be another Nair centered character especially since Nair can't be done with the C-stick (unless you change your control scheme like metroid) making me like it less for lack of aerial control. When you'd get hit up high and about to be comboed more your best bet was Up-air and fastfall through them since it was his earliest aerial after bair but lasted long, now Nair replaces that entirely and some of that creativity is lost. Dair also seems to come out a little sooner making it able to get the hit box out for platform dropping on BF's platforms which I'm not sure if he was able to in 2.5.

I understand wanting to play optimally, and adjusting your playstyle to that, but is Ike having a few more aerial options such a bad thing for him? You still have his other options for the control you want and more importantly, you can mindgame your opponent into thinking your going for his fastest tools but use another combo instead.

I mean at this point you still got Ike 2.1 loyalists saying Ike is worthless now when that obviously isn't true, but Ike 2.5 loyalists are not feeling his genuinely good buffs either?

Poor Ike, so cool yet so polarizing to people no matter what.

 

[DMG]

Ike is a decent human being right now and people should play him OR Squirtle those are your choices.

 

[CyberZixx]

The Ike changes while subtle makes him feel super fun now.

 

[Mono.]

i'm the type of ike that normally utilizes all of his aerials in some way

the more i play, the more i realize that nair is kind of super good whereas i don't use his other aerials so much except fair for a maximum spacing situation or any other aerial to try to score an early kill

i don't have too much of a problem with it, nor am i saying it's OP, but i can say that ike's game indeed now centered around nair because of it's... over-versatility? if that's even a word

 

[DMG]

I get what you're saying, but the other aerials aren't invalidated in their own right either. Dair still has the spike and Uair is the better choice for a longer lingering hitbox. Besides that yeah Nair is a bit godly. Nair now combos into Nair. It's disgusting and boner-fying

 

[Strong Badam]

i use ike a lot and while i do use nair most in terms of approaching, during combos i rarely use it more than once within a combo. uair/bair/fair are all better finishers depending on the situation, and there's nothing wrong with a move being better than the others for comboing (hello falcon uair).

 

[Aenglaan]

Ike had the right buffs to his design. He doesn't feel broken like in 2.0 and 2.1, but doesn't feel like a wimp like in 2.5. He's no Marth, but he feels like an all-around decent character and a fun one to play as.

 

[SpiderMad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4zikebg0c0
They messin up Diddy and Pit. I'm left playin ZSS, Squirtle, Ike, and Lucas: none of which I can offer near the same potential I could with Diddy and Pit especially compared to other players.

I wish metroid's method of Attack set for C-stick so Nairs can be triggered using diagonal inputs wouldn't replace grounded C-stick inputs to not trigger tilts instead of Smash attacks: otherwise I'd pry switch that for Ike right away. I also wish DACUS/Ike's DACUS was easier, but its difficulty isn't as dumb as Diddy's strong side-b. I have no contact with Vro but I'm reading his mind that he's gonna end up back to 100% Ike given the circumstances of Diddy/Wario. He also might second Lucas since he was dabbling with him at the beginning of 2.5

 

[Mono.]

i feel like ike's dacus has a good frame window for input

i damn sure don't do it every time and it sucks to throw out a grab when I want a dacus but i feel like it's my own execution errors rather than the input being too strict

 

[Nguz95]

SpiderMad, have you tried out every single character? Whenever I sift through other characters' subforums I almost always see you...

 

[SpiderMad]

i feel like ike's dacus has a good frame window for input

i damn sure don't do it every time and it sucks to throw out a grab when I want a dacus but i feel like it's my own execution errors rather than the input being too strict

What's the frame difficulty compared to other's?

I always wondered: can a DACUS be made easier without having to change anything else [Which frame speed modifiers could possibly do]?
Because if so, I don't like that the input has throughout even their easier Brawl iteration made players switch their controls to perform them. And most everyone I've read who even likes DACUSing always mentions they don't get it close to 100%, I'm not here to spend hours perfecting a single specific "action" especially if it could be easier: nor do I get enthusiasm to explain to my friends how stupid hard things like this shouldn't even be attempted for them since they have even less time for the game than I do. Mastering things like Fox's SH or Ike's WJ Wavebounce stuff on the other hand is not only in abundance for tough things to already master in this game: but they can't be made easier because it's logically impossible.

For a SH you have to take your hand off the button before the jump squat is over to tell the game you don't want a FH. Brawl has it at the very best setting for being the easiest possible though the logistics still make it hard. Melee on the other hand either did this on purpose or had bad coding: where they checked for button release ONE FRAME LATER THAN THEY HAD TO: making Fox/Sheik/Icies/Pikachu's SHs stupidly difficulty. P:M has so far kept the Brawl better frame check for SHs, and that's just one example of something I love to see in this game: though they scare me with uncertainty if they'd change it back to Melee based on how they deal with other things.

Basically I don't want to practice something I can't get behind, that's how you end up with "Because Melee" type stuff where people want the game to have harder SHs again. Also applies to Diddy's strong side-b

SpiderMad, have you tried out every single character? Whenever I sift through other characters' subforums I almost always see you...

DMG is the king of being everywhere lol; but I guess I'm subscribed to a lot now from making posts here and there.

I'm on the brink of being able to say I've tried them all, though I've avoided some of the characters that even their previous mains are kind of upset about themselves. I can't main characters that don't really move/transverse across the stage or play near the speed I want to. Everyone I'm dabbling with now has the speed factor, but they're dull in a lot of areas.

 

[SpiderMad]

I made a tag for playing Ike with C-stick and R as Attack, I know Metroid does the C-stick but I don't know if he uses Z or modified R for his DACUS. R might also be easier than A for DACPivotgrab but probly not; yeah no wait.. definitely not lol.

Now I have to use A for my F-smash, which could lead to extra frames of start-up(charge) if you're sloppy. If you decide to charge soon after initiating, you can hold Z: but it's a little more awkward now after using A. I also remember hearing something about Stutter-step F-smashes (gain extra distance before using it) in Brawl, where using A had that benefit or something.

Jab and F-tilt can now be done with C-stick but I don't remember metroid saying that lead to anything unique

 

[Nguz95]

I made a tag for playing Ike with C-stick and R as Attack, I know metroid does the C-stick but I don't know if he uses Z or modified R for his DACUS. R might also be easier than A for DACPivotgrab but probly not; yeah no wait.. definitely not lol.

Now I have to use A for my F-smash, which could lead to extra frames of start-up(charge) if you're sloppy. If you decide to charge soon after initiating, you can hold Z: but it's a little more awkward now after using A.

Wow. That's some pretty involved Ike play. Do you feel like this offers a large advantage over the standard control schemea.

 

[SpiderMad]

Wow. That's some pretty involved Ike play. Do you feel like this offers a large advantage over the standard control schemea.

I want to hear from metroid if Jab/Tilt from C-stick might lead to using them easier out of dash or something; but as far as I see it Nair is so good now I DEFINITELY recommend you switch C-stick for it. I've never been good at using Nair after a platform drop but now that I can use it just like my other aerials I can see how even more crazy it is for platform dropping as well as like escaping getting combo'd in the air (You can drift now like say away from the CF doing his up-air while you input the fast nair [or Up-air] to beat it).

I've been using the top-right diagonal to trigger it, but it works with each diagonal (also how you trigger jab for the ground).

As for R as Attack for DACUS= I still don't know. I don't really use R though I'd like to keep it open, but it does make DACUS a little easier I guess than Z; maybe so that with Z I get it 1/4 compared to 1/2 at my best now. [Edit: I got it almost full consistency now with R]

Also want to hear all his info for throw/set-ups to DACUS character percents, if he's nice to give that away unlike Oro and his ZSS >=(

 

[metroid1117]

I made a tag for playing Ike with C-stick and R as Attack, I know Metroid does the C-stick but I don't know if he uses Z or modified R for his DACUS. R might also be easier than A for DACPivotgrab but probly not; yeah no wait.. definitely not lol.

For DACUS, I claw such that my right thumb presses diagonally down+right on the C-stick for the dash attack (I don't know why, but this specific direction works better for me than just down) and I use my right index finger for A on up+A for the USmash. I used to not claw and do up+Z, for the USmash, but that was more inconsistent for me than the current method.

Jab and F-tilt can now be done with C-stick but I don't remember metroid saying that lead to anything unique

I think Ike's dash speed is too slow to do dash-canceled jabs like I do with Charizard, so I personally haven't found any uses for this.

Also want to hear all his info for throw/set-ups to DACUS character percents, if he's nice to give that away unlike Oro and his ZSS >=(

To be honest, I'm still not entirely sure when it works lol. All I know is that it's heavily dependent on character floatiness, DI, and %. FThrow can link into DACUS on most floaty characters (TL/G&W) around 65% with no DI and on not-so-floaty characters (Ganon/DK) around 75% with no DI; I don't know about BThrow, but it might be for similar %s. DThrow can also link into DACUS on most floaty characters at higher %s if they DI out, but IMO it's harder to DACUS out of a DThrow than FThrow or BThrow. Spacies can get DACUS'd out of UThrow if they DI away probably at around 80% or so, but depending on their position on stage it might be better to shffl NAir -> QD BAir instead of DACUS. Again though, these %s are rough estimates and DACUS'ing out of throws is inconsistent because it's heavily based on DI. It probably has the best chance of working out of BThrow or FThrow since they're DI mix-ups for each other though.

 

[SpiderMad]

For DACUS, I claw such that my right thumb presses diagonally down+right on the C-stick for the dash attack (I don't know why, but this specific direction works better for me than just down) and I use my right index finger for A on up+A for the USmash.

Is that also the C-stick direction you use for Nair? If you get the time a video of your hands as well as your DACUS uses would probably be helpful to everyone, is there other DACUS set-ups you've learned besides throws?

Do you know who's Vro playin? I can guarantee it's not Diddy (in 2.6)

 

[metroid1117]

Is that also the C-stick direction you use for Nair? If you get the time a video of your hands as well as your DACUS uses would probably be helpful to everyone, is there other DACUS set-ups you've learned besides throws?

Do you know who's Vro playin? I can guarantee it's not Diddy

I've been meaning to do a DACUS video for a while, but I don't have the time at the moment.

Last time I saw Vro play in tournament, he used Wario and Diddy. He also MM'd me with Diddy at that same tournament.

 

[SpiderMad]

.

Ugh! Did you know/mention this? C-stick set for Attack has a major flaw: If you do an aerial like say Bair, any aerial after it won't trigger till you hit the ground (using C-stick).

So if you jump off some high platform, do Bair with A or C-stick, and then want to do another bair (or any aerial) it won't do anything no matter what using the C-stick and you have to use A for the aerial.

Also with it set to Attack: CC to D-smash doesn't work, like I think if you get hit while Crouching (CC) and then try to d-smash the d-smash won't come ever come out.

This SUCKS

 

[GingaBread]

Ugh! Did you know/mention this? C-stick set for Attack has a major flaw: If you do an aerial like say Bair, any aerial after it won't trigger till you hit the ground (using C-stick).

So if you jump off some high platform, do Bair with A or C-stick, and then want to do another bair (or any aerial) it won't do anything no matter what using the C-stick and you have to use A for the aerial.

Also with it set to Attack: CC to D-smash doesn't work, like I think if you get hit while Crouching (CC) and then try to d-smash the d-smash won't come ever come out.

This SUCKS

I have done multiple bairs with the c-stick before landing more times than I can count

 

[Nguz95]

I have done multiple bairs with the c-stick before landing more times than I can count

With a set to c stick? That's what SpiderMad is complaining about.

 

[GingaBread]

Yeah you mean the default controller layout for PM?

edit: you mean A button attacks mapped to the c-stick?

 

[SpiderMad]

I have done multiple bairs with the c-stick before landing more times than I can count

Standardtoaster made me aware the C-stick registers inputs awkwardly when set as Attack, so he and I were able to get it after he figured out that you totally have to wait to the end of the move to make sure the C-stick is back in neutral and then input the next aerial: if you input it too soon and then try again it'll never see itself as back to neutral and nothing will happen and mashing more will just forever not activate anything (which is still almost as bad as what i previously thought of it not working at all, because you can't time your next aerial too soon and instead have to play it safe and time the next late after the first(having a few frames of no action)

You can set C-stick as Attack in Controller settings using a tag, normally it's set on "Smash". R is also "Shield" but I made it "Attack" as well for DACUSing easier instead of using the Z button. People switch their controls all the time in Brawl for things like good wavebouncing

 

[GingaBread]

Yeah I usually wait until the endlag from the first bair is done before attempting the second one. Maybe that's why I haven't run into it before.

 

[SpiderMad]

Well whatever I do for normal controls works fine, I get my near frame perfect linkage of aerials. But the bad registering/neutral-state problem when set to Attack puts a hamper on timing them as strict, which is very sad because its ability to trigger Nair by pressing a diagonal on the C-stick is especially good for Ike's concerning controlling movement (You can move fully to the left/right and trigger a Nair, you can immediately trigger Nair while dropping through a platform with no risk of making a dair etc.).

 

[GingaBread]

I agree but I find that to be part of the beauty of it. Along with L-cancels, wd, quick OoS attacks, and most inputs as far as mobility (dash immediately after l-cancel, etc.) this feels kinda natural to the fast-but-precise inputs that smash demands.

 

[SpiderMad]

I agree but I find that to be part of the beauty of it. Along with L-cancels, wd, quick OoS attacks, and most inputs as far as mobility (dash immediately after l-cancel, etc.) this feels kinda natural to the fast-but-precise inputs that smash demands.

Are you referring to specifically triggering Nairs normally vs with C-stick? Well you can tell that to metroid too but I just find more beauty in doing it through C-stick. I find beauty in a lot of things that make the game feel better/comfortable but aren't standard. http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-2302#post-15735187


People have also been doing Controller layout modifying ever since Brawl was out, it's just plain needed for certain things like good Wavebouncing for Lucas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53Wix_KsK5g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7161d1oq9AU
And even for P:M the PMBR and most people can't do consistent DACUS without setting R to Attack, which some of the PMBR does (instead of researching to just make the input easier).

And Smash 64 people told me the same thing about asking for C-stick (using GCC to USB adapter) to work in 64 emulating, it's just more comfortable.
http://smashboards.com/threads/keyb...ole-tourneys-poll.335589/page-9#post-15554207
But unlike 64, Brawl added the layout feature in intentionally, and using it with any modified controls has always been tournament legal. It's just they didn't exactly try to make the game input registry less wonky for all the different stuff you could do with it.

 

[GingaBread]

Nairs with the c-stick? wha...? I think we're talking about different things

 

[SpiderMad]

Nairs with the c-stick? wha...? I think we're talking about different things

I'll be making a video for it tonight or tomorrow

Actually this is pretty decent to show it, but I got stuff to add. Apparently he says you can DACUS with it too or something >_O?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZlCDfcClG0

 

[Comeback Kid]

So I'm not sure about all the techniques your talking about, but if it's programmable the C-stick should do what it is set to do.

If it's set to attacks (tilts) it should just do tilts, not some hybrid of tilts and smashes.

Diagonal nair sounds good though.

 

[SpiderMad]

http://youtu.be/v5cy6uqC0Os

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

Can you do DAC Pivot Grab with any character?

 

[metroid1117]

Can you do DAC Pivot Grab with any character?

Nope =/. I'm not sure how it works myself, but it depends on how much momentum your character has on the start of his or her dash attack.

 

[standardtoaster]

you can pivot grab from dash attack