2.5 ike

[JUGGERNAUT043]

now to begin with i know that 2.1 ike was a complete monster, in a goof couple ways way to much so, though a small part thinks ppl just dont want somone rivaling the spacies hehe, anyway does anyone think ike has been nerfed to an exstreme? nerved recovery on ether, unnecessary, quick draw wall jump recovery nerf? understandable. but my real question is does anyone think the way the new hitbox system works is horrible, they say its like roy yet roys sweet spots were in the center of his blade, now for roy thats not a good thing cause his and marths sword were same or at least close to the same length, and his tips were horrid, with ike that would actually work due to his much larger sword, but right now the strongest hitbox is the hilt, that would be like dedede having the best part on the stick of his hammer, my suggestion simply move the hitboxs around, thats all, the now tip has the blade hitbox, the blade has the hilt hitbox, and the hilt has the tip, he would be much more like like roy, what do u all think? thanks for reading

 

[G13_Flux]

well the difference between ike and roy is that ike has may more reliable ways to set up into things, and his far greater power really emphasizes on the players ability to set up into what they are trying to get. 2.1 ike was a very easy character to use because of how easy it was to space and still get full power out of his sword. it really rewarded players for not being consistent and technical, and gave them leeway that really takes the challenge out of playing a character. i think the hilt system works, because ike still has great spacing tools despite the lesser hitboxes being out far. with the hitboxes in closer, he ca use the outer hitboxes to combo and set up for things. if this was altered, then your combo moves would be less ranged, and your kill moves would be more ranged. this would make ikes combo game relatively inefficient, and setting up into kills would more difficult, actually reducing his kill potential in some aspects, and making the close hitboxes effectively useless. with the current system, ike has more ways to manipulate all of his hitboxes, and more uses for them, giving him more tools overall. i know a lot of people are under the impression that ike was severely nerfed, and he sorta was, but i dont think that the hitbox system was a nerf. i think the things that needed to be fixed like the absurd range on his dash attack, the gigantic meteor hitbox on dtilt, and disproportionately powerful moves in relation to their range, were adressed properly. ike now has a better combo game, making him better at damage racking, giving him better potential for kills, and rewarding skilled players more than stupid broken hitboxes. his ground game, with his adjusted dash stats, now offer him more options on the ground that reward skill, and lead to more overall effectiveness than his very basic, yet obnoxious ground attacks.

i would say overall, ike is easily as effective, if not moreso than he was before. ike was considered to be so good in 2.1 because there was a lot of reward for a lack of skill. now, he is not outright as OP, but a good knowledge of the character can lead you to better more efficient results. thats my opinion anyways, im not really an ike main so i might not be fully spot on. but ive got a good amount of MU experience vs him and ive definitely noticed things he can do that he wasnt able to in 2.1.

 

[metroid1117]

... but my real question is does anyone think the way the new hitbox system works is horrible, they say its like roy yet roys sweet spots were in the center of his blade, now for roy thats not a good thing cause his and marths sword were same or at least close to the same length, and his tips were horrid, with ike that would actually work due to his much larger sword, but right now the strongest hitbox is the hilt, that would be like dedede having the best part on the stick of his hammer, my suggestion simply move the hitboxs around, thats all, the now tip has the blade hitbox, the blade has the hilt hitbox, and the hilt has the tip, he would be much more like like roy, what do u all think? thanks for reading

Roy's sweetspots were such that there were only two possible trajectories based on which part of the sword you hit the opponent with, either the outer half of the sword (the weak tip) or the inner half of the sword (the strong hilt). Ike's sword sweetspots, however, are designed such that it sweetspots at the hilt. There are actually four hitboxes for Ike's sword attacks - the tip, the blade, the hilt, and his arm. The subtle difference here is that, unlike Roy's attacks, Ike does not sweetspot if you hit the opponent with his arm, and the arm hitboxes have the same strength as his blade hitboxes. This creates a huge spacing dynamic, because unlike Roy's sweetspots, which were purely the inner half of the sword or so, Ike's attacks must be spaced properly such that the opponent isn't too far away or too close in order to hit the sweetspot. This also promotes close-combat with the opponent, since the tip hitbox (which has longer range) is weaker than the blade or hilt hitboxes (which have shorter range and can possibly allow the opponent to counter-attack if mis-timed or mis-spaced).

The system you propose, while retaining the spacing dynamic, would discourage close-combat with the opponent. This is because the tip is now moderately strong and the blade is the sweetspot, giving Ike much less of an incentive to get close to his opponent. While there's already a precedent with Marth to discourage close-combat with the opponent, Ike's sword attacks are generally longer-ranged than Marth's (albeit generally slower as well), making this slightly more polarizing. In addition, this increases the risk of going for Ike's sweetspots, since the proposed change makes the hilt hitboxes the strength as tipped hitboxes, so missing the hilt would result in either a moderate or weak hit, whereas missing the hilt in the current system and hitting with either the blade or arm hitboxes would result in moderate hits for both cases. Because it encourages close-combat and has more consistent yields when missing a sweetspot, I prefer the current system over your proposed system. (Plus, it would take away the incentive to DACUS such that you slip under them and end up juuuuuuuuust behind your opponent's back .)

 

[JUGGERNAUT043]

i see your point, i was kinda annoyed when i kept watching ike match after ike match after ike match and he was getting kicked around like a ragdoll by ivysaur and ZSS, and when he did land his hits they just seem so puny, i understand the hitbox reasoning now thank you, but can i ask why other than the hilt why the hits seem so drastically weak?

 

[G13_Flux]

well dont forget that ivysaur and ZSS werent in 2.1. the reason hes getting kicked around by them could be purely MU related. they are both great spacing characters, have projectiles, are great defensively, and have great recovery. right off the bat, those are some traits that i can see easily working against ike. im not as sure about ivysaur, but i would definitely argue that ZSS is advantageous against ike anyways. but dont forget that those weak hits are good for comboing.

 

[Ace55]

The system you propose, while retaining the spacing dynamic, would discourage close-combat with the opponent.

I'd think being a slow character with a giant sword already discourages close-combat with the opponent. But I'm fine with the current system. Still have enough setups for the strong hits and being as save on shield as he was was kinda ridiculous.

Not a fan of the side-b and up-b changes though. And I do feel like they went a little overboard with the 'tweaks'. Side-b, up-b, neutral-b, fsmash, dsmash, weight, dash attack, fair, grab range and I could be missing some stuff.

 

[SpiderMad]

Not a fan of the side-b and up-b changes though. And I do feel like they went a little overboard with the 'tweaks'. Side-b, up-b, neutral-b, fsmash, dsmash, weight, dash attack, fair, grab range and I could be missing some stuff.

Many, but most importantly his soul

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I agree with pretty much everything they did with ike in 2.5. The whole reason I dropped him in 2.1 was because he was so ridiculous. Honestly all the changes makes me interested in playing him again, and I'm probably the only person that played him in 2.1 that feels that way lol.

One thing people tend to forget is that this is still a demo, and everything is subject to change.

 

[RedGamer]

Me thinks that ike is fantastic! Something that I was told on the wolf boards, "don't campare wolf with fox/falco too much or you won't use him correctly." (creds to G13_Flux)
I do believe that applies here. You probably shouldn't compare him to roy so much. Ike is his own character.
I can't tell you a lot about Ike from demo 2.1, but I can say that Demo 2.5 Ike is cool.
Quickdraw walljump can be used offensively, I have done it several times to extend edge combos or edgeguard opponents that recover high.
Dash off of the stage -> Quickdraw towards the stage -> walljump -> doublejump -> F-air
Ike's spacing is superb imo and his sword swats away physical projectiles, like wolf's blaster or mario's fireballs.
I think Ike's comboing is tons of fun. His moves just flow together. It really messed my friend up (who was playing wolf).
Ike vs Link is an annoying matchup, though. especially if the only thing that link does is spam up-b and standard jabs.


TL;DR we like Ike! PREPARE YOURSELF!!

 

[Oro?!]

I wanna see these VoDs of Ike getting kicked around by Ivy/ZSS haha.​

 

[metroid1117]

Speaking of ZSS - Oro, I need to play against your ZSS!

 

[standardtoaster]

You better make it to imdb then, metroid. :D

 

[Oro?!]

Speaking of ZSS - Oro, I need to play against your ZSS!

You better make it to imdb then, metroid. :D

This ^
Or just be available whenever... You have my number and I will always be willing to drive out for smash.

On the topic of Ike though, I'm probably going to start using him as a serious secondary, especially after bopping SpiderMad with my broccoli sword of UNVIABLE.

 

[metroid1117]

This ^
Or just be available whenever... You have my number and I will always be willing to drive out for smash.

On the topic of Ike though, I'm probably going to start using him as a serious secondary, especially after bopping SpiderMad with my broccoli sword of UNVIABLE.

Yessssssssss, another Ike player =D. You better learn how to DACUS, it's soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

ike wasnt op in 2.1, he had (and has) a bunch of glaring weaknesses that ppl didnt take advantage of
if these whiny ******s wouldve sat down and tried to learn the matchup for an hour or two they would realize hes never been broken

 

[metroid1117]

ike wasnt op in 2.1, he had (and has) a bunch of glaring weaknesses that ppl didnt take advantage of
if these whiny ******s wouldve sat down and tried to learn the matchup for an hour or two they would realize hes never been broken

I'm not sure if 2.1 Ike was OP, but he had glaringly silly tools like x.5 hitlag on shield for his sword attacks, infinite wall jumps out of QD, and SAF on frame 1 of releasing Eruption.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

if you interrupt ios forward b you **** his entire recovery, and up-b should be free to edgeguard if you use edge invincibility.
the main thing is his moves are slow, if you get close and just pressure him whats he gonna do?

 

[Compound_X]

This ^
Or just be available whenever... You have my number and I will always be willing to drive out for smash.

On the topic of Ike though, I'm probably going to start using him as a serious secondary, especially after bopping SpiderMad with my broccoli sword of UNVIABLE.

UNVIABLE!

 

[Mr.Pickle]

if you interrupt ios forward b you **** his entire recovery, and up-b should be free to edgeguard if you use edge invincibility.
the main thing is his moves are slow, if you get close and just pressure him whats he gonna do?

Key word there is getting close, its pretty difficult when you have one of the best, if not the best, collection of range in the game. Ike is nowhere close to slow, especially in relation to his range.

Also 2.1 was out for about a year, if that isn't enough time for people to learn the matchup, then I don't what is. No offense, but I think you just haven't played a good ike before.

 

[metroid1117]

if you interrupt ios forward b you **** his entire recovery, and up-b should be free to edgeguard if you use edge invincibility.
the main thing is his moves are slow, if you get close and just pressure him whats he gonna do?

I agree with you entirely (which is why I'm not sure if he was OP in 2.1), but the thing about infinite wall jumps and edge invincibility is that he could use the wall jumps to stall out edge invincibility.

Key word there is getting close, its pretty difficult when you have one of the best, if not the best, collection of range in the game. Ike is nowhere close to slow, especially in relation to his range.

Also 2.1 was out for about a year, if that isn't enough time for people to learn the matchup, then I don't what is. No offense, but I think you just haven't played a good ike before.

In terms of start-up time on moves that control space in front of him, he was/is pretty slow in the air.

Also, to be fair, it seemed like the region getting trolled the hardest by Ikes was the Midwest; players don't really travel there because large tournaments aren't hosted here as often. Not to take away from Vro or anything (he's really ****ing good at this game), but match-up inexperience was a huge factor for Ike's success at FC: Legacy and The Big House 2, both large/stacked tournaments hosted in the Midwest where people haven't played against an Ike before.

 

[Oro?!]

That's just johns in the end. "Good" Melee players will start performing worse and worse when they can no longer just rely on picking X top tier Melee vet and compete with PM players who develop their own characters metagame and countermeasures for those characters. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth watching some upper echelon Melee players scrub it up because they "don't know the matchup".

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

@metroid, that is very true, i always forget how many stages have walls like ys in this game. that was kinda bs.
@mr pickle: marths is roughly the same, but faster. whats hard to adapt to is the forward b movement stuff, which makes dashdance camping bad in that matchup. but overall due to the lack of speed, i dont think its unbalanced when compared to marth.
ivyaurs is better (although it doesnt lead to anything unless sweetspotted at mid/high percent, which is a great way to balance ivysaur)

 

[clowsui]

Kyle you should probably co-main Ike instead. I think you want to get a head start on being able to actually fight gay bird feet and vulpine Nairplanes as opposed to constantly trying to outplayyour opponent in a 7-3/8-2 matchup. you're my friend so I already hate seeing you lose but you're one of the best if not the best ZSS, and seeing you get steamrolled by constant pressure because of her dead zone is going to upset me since ZSS is the only character I like enough to play

also Ike vs ZSS is weird. fun 5-5 matchup. iirc when i was messing around w it in training mode/casuals ZSS is combo food and dies quick but she can work setups vs Ike + Ike can't land

 

[metroid1117]

That's just johns in the end. "Good" Melee players will start performing worse and worse when they can no longer just rely on picking X top tier Melee vet and compete with PM players who develop their own characters metagame and countermeasures for those characters. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth watching some upper echelon Melee players scrub it up because they "don't know the matchup".

That's true. I just feel like 2.1 Ike was an extreme turn from Melee because from first impressions, he had Ganon's power, Falcon's speed, Marth's range, and a recovery that was difficult to edge-guard from the stage.

However I agree with you, you shouldn't expect to be able to pick top tiers and do well without spending time to learn match-ups unless your fundamentals are significantly better than your opponent's.

also Ike vs ZSS is weird. fun 5-5 matchup. iirc when i was messing around w it in training mode/casuals ZSS is combo food and dies quick but she can work setups vs Ike + Ike can't land

That's interesting, I would've thought it'd be in ZSS' favor because Ike wouldn't be able to get in at all. Oh well, all the more fun to look forward to when Oro and I finally play.

 

[clowsui]

unlike bowser ike can move around side b lmao

 

[Oro?!]

I mean, in the long run I definitely believe a few of the nerfs were warranted, namely recovery and his tilts startup/cooldown (and I enjoy the new sword system more tbh). Other than those I thought Ike was in a good place, but his grab game, side B, and kill potential all got hit pretty hard as well. Even past all of that Ike still feels strong... just not top tier strong anymore.

Ike vs ZSS... I'm not sure what it would be tbh. ZSS cannot keep characters out solely with projectiles, and Ike can easily break whip spacing like Zard. ZSS might beat Ike in the end, but it would probably come down to his combo weight and ease of edgeguarding more than anything else.

Chi I will just talk about spacies I guess in the ZSS thread, because this isn't really the place for it.

 

[JUGGERNAUT043]

I'd think being a slow character with a giant sword already discourages close-combat with the opponent. But I'm fine with the current system. Still have enough setups for the strong hits and being as save on shield as he was was kinda ridiculous.

Not a fan of the side-b and up-b changes though. And I do feel like they went a little overboard with the 'tweaks'. Side-b, up-b, neutral-b, fsmash, dsmash, weight, dash attack, fair, grab range and I could be missing some stuff.

i deff agree he needed nerfs but dear god did he need that many? i still think the hitbox placement idea is dumb, marth + short sword= tip is the best hitbox, ike+ giant sword= the handle is the strongest? anyone else see something wrong? it would be like dedede having the strong hitbox in the stick by his hand,they shoulda went with roys setup in melee with the middle being the best, makes it half up close and half away, the character with the biggest weapon shouldnt have to hug u to deal the death blow, i think they were just afraid ike was surpassing the un-nerfable star fox team(minus wolf) and there undenyable "fairness" lol

 

[SpiderMad]

the character with the biggest weapon shouldnt have to hug u to deal the death blow

LOL

 

[Mono.]

So why was the height of Ike's Aether shortened again? All the other nerfs I can deal with but that one just bothers me.

 

[CyberZixx]

Because if you want a good recovery you need jet packs like Diddy. Ike's sheer force of will just don't cut it.

 

[Astraea31]

So why was the height of Ike's Aether shortened again? All the other nerfs I can deal with but that one just bothers me.

because brawl recoveries are ******** enough as it is.

 

[Mono.]

It was already troublesome enough to deal with people who know how to edgeguard aether, which is apparently very few, but it is what it is I guess.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

To be fair though, you can still change your direction so your back is facing the wall, and sweetspot the ledge with minimal risk. The main weakness of aether is that there isn't really a hit box behind him when he does it, so characters like ganon, if they see it coming, can jump off the stage and warlock kick towards it. Thus because of the angle warlock kick goes, it will hit Ike right in the back, and send him to his doom. However the above method should should decrease the amount of edge guards like this, honestly most of them, but you'll still need to be careful.

Food for thought though, Ike is the only character besides the tether characters with a ledge grab limit on his up b. After 5 aethers he just plummets to his death, which is the only thing about 2.5 Ike I disagree with.

 

[standardtoaster]

that edge grab limit was from brawl haha

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Oh really lol, I thought it was something you guys added...oh brawl.

 

[JUGGERNAUT043]

it was brawl yet it was not changed hmmmmmmm

 

[the Sultan of Sexy]

Edit: started own thread for new discussion