Think what can happen for SSB4 if Nintendo doesn't purposely destroy the skill, depth and competitive aspects of the game and instead go down the Melee path again. It's pretty sad how Nintendo treats the competitive Melee scene when their new game could be on a level of competitive e-sports popularity similar to League of Legends if they put a little effort into it.
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133kviewers on Twitch.tv watching Melee.
- Thread starter Mr.C
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eshu125
Smash Apprentice
Don't you ****in dare compare melee to a **** e-sport like LoL.
It was truly amazing to watch. But Sakurai has already made some efforts, though. tripping is gone, the speed seems faster than Brawl, and speculations have been made about the hit-stun being longer. I wouldn't mind if wavedashing and L-canceling were in the next smash, but if you think those are the only saving grace for smash 4 to be fun, competitive, technical and exciting like melee, you might be disappointed.
It was truly amazing to watch. But Sakurai has already made some efforts, though. tripping is gone, the speed seems faster than Brawl, and speculations have been made about the hit-stun being longer. I wouldn't mind if wavedashing and L-canceling were in the next smash, but if you think those are the only saving grace for smash 4 to be fun, competitive, technical and exciting like melee, you might be disappointed.
Smur
Smash Apprentice
Umm, calm down?
and on topic, I agree that they COULD make SSB4 as competitive as melee was, but I'm not expecting it in this day and age of Nintendo
It'll still be fun to play and that's what matters to me
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dark Phazon
Smash Hero
Has anyone got a link to where i can watch this please.
The stream is http://www.twitch.tv/srkevo1
I'm pretty sure Melee is over. There are probably VOD's for all of the matches though.
LoL is currently the most played video game with the largest competitive e-sport following. The game is massive, massively popular, and it also takes a lot of skill to play. League and Dota 2 are what games and game developers should strive for. E-Sports is HUGE now. These tournaments have $1-2,000,000 payouts these days. All the while, Nintendo decides to utterly disregard the potential a game coming out in 2013-14 that's similar to Melee would have towards the E-Sports community.
Doesn't really matter what you think about LoL. You have to respect companies like Valve, Riot, and Blizzard's contribution towards video game evolution. Nintendo needs to get with the times and realize their "silent majority" of casual gamers don't really matter when e-sport is currently a mutli billion dollar business. Hell, popular LoL players are making six figure salaries. Melee pros are making $100 at bi-weekly tournaments.
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
KingofPhantoms
The Spook Factor
Oh God, not you again.
I'm new to competitive Smash, so I don't know exactly what I could use to argue you here, but I'm going to go ahead and try anyway.
You say Smash 4 is Brawl copy & paste, but to me it sounds like all you want is Melee copy & paste. Melee's physics made it a signifcantly more hardcore fighting game than Brawl, but the physics don't have to be the same for every game, that's like saying you want every game in the series to be the same, just with different stages and characters.
The physics can be changed a bit, but not completely. If they mixed it up with Melee and Brawl, then I think that would be fine.
And fyi, the tournament had a crapload of viewers because it was at EVO, one of the largest competitive gaming tournaments in the world. It had so many views because it was Smash's greatest tournament yet, not just because it was Melee.
I'm new to competitive Smash, so I don't know exactly what I could use to argue you here, but I'm going to go ahead and try anyway.
You say Smash 4 is Brawl copy & paste, but to me it sounds like all you want is Melee copy & paste. Melee's physics made it a signifcantly more hardcore fighting game than Brawl, but the physics don't have to be the same for every game, that's like saying you want every game in the series to be the same, just with different stages and characters.
The physics can be changed a bit, but not completely. If they mixed it up with Melee and Brawl, then I think that would be fine.
And fyi, the tournament had a crapload of viewers because it was at EVO, one of the largest competitive gaming tournaments in the world. It had so many views because it was Smash's greatest tournament yet, not just because it was Melee.
StarshipGroove
Smash Journeyman
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Had it been Brawl the view count would have gone in the negatives
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
Apex 2013 melee grand finals on youtube has 44,577 views (as of june 12th)
Apex 2013 brawl grand finals on youtube has 72, 441 views (as of june 12th)
StarshipGroove
Smash Journeyman
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That's because half the views of the Brawl finals are from you
edit: I'm just kidding ofc
edit: I'm just kidding ofc
KingofPhantoms
The Spook Factor
Ogre_Deity_Link
Smash Lord
Oh, not this again! It's like you people are TRYING to get arguments going! Did this REALLY need to be in the Sm4sh forum?
Depster
Smash Champion
Melee pulled that many and UMvC3 is at 124k. Kinda funny, huh =p
Dark Phazon
Smash Hero
I watched a few of those EVO13 Vidz on youtube & Damnnnn...Armada is MAHDDDDDDDD....
KingofPhantoms
The Spook Factor
And yet he still lost. (pretty sure Mango was the one responsible for that)
HungryBox is a Godlypuff.
Ulevo
Smash Master
People who argue with bias and not intelligence shouldn't be making threads or contributing to a conversation that's inevitably going to turn in to a spitting match about Melee vs Brawl again.
While I agree that Melee getting 134,500 viewers at its peak was absolutely awesome, and the community really did well to represent at the EVO event, you need to consider the demographic Nintendo tries to cater to.
Each gaming company has a specific niche it tries to appeal to for their share of the gaming market. League of Legends and Riot is no different, similarly. The reason League is so big is because Riot pours all its resources in to making sure League is accepted and promoted as a competitive game and sport. Nintendo, even if it didn't try to fight against its competitive hardcore fanbase for Smash, doesn't directly support or sponsor any events.
There are limitations as to how big competitive Smash can get until this changes, and it isn't likely to.
That being said. The only reason Melee was so successful at EVO was because of how good the game is, and subsequently how awesome Melee's community is by extension. Smash Wii U being a good game will go a long way to ensure future Smash success.
On an unrelated note: Axe and Pikachu for president.
While I agree that Melee getting 134,500 viewers at its peak was absolutely awesome, and the community really did well to represent at the EVO event, you need to consider the demographic Nintendo tries to cater to.
Each gaming company has a specific niche it tries to appeal to for their share of the gaming market. League of Legends and Riot is no different, similarly. The reason League is so big is because Riot pours all its resources in to making sure League is accepted and promoted as a competitive game and sport. Nintendo, even if it didn't try to fight against its competitive hardcore fanbase for Smash, doesn't directly support or sponsor any events.
There are limitations as to how big competitive Smash can get until this changes, and it isn't likely to.
That being said. The only reason Melee was so successful at EVO was because of how good the game is, and subsequently how awesome Melee's community is by extension. Smash Wii U being a good game will go a long way to ensure future Smash success.
On an unrelated note: Axe and Pikachu for president.
TheBakonBitz
Smash Journeyman
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For anyone that didn't watch Evo: Mango won losers, fought Wobblez (who won winners) and beat him 3-0, reset the brackets, and beat him again 2-1!
When games are balanced around lower to mid levels the entire fanbase suffers. This same design approach is the cause of all barwls balance issues. Sakurai didn't want to bothers with how the game functions when players try to play efficiently and the whole game is worse because of it.
Melee at evo is the most viewed fighting game ever streamed.
Even if it wasn't
............wombo combo.
Brawl will never get that much attention. Cause it sucks.
KingofPhantoms
The Spook Factor
It was EVO dude.
Of course it had that many viewers, it was the biggest tourney Smash ever had.
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I sense a lot of Brawl hate...
Can't Brawl and Melee fans just get along?
Can't Brawl and Melee fans just get along?
eshu125
Smash Apprentice
Off-topic: I never said League of Legends wasn't successful, nor that e-sports isn't. I watch virtually all popular fighting games (including both melee and Brawl), Quake Live, Counterstrike, and Dota 2, so I'm a pretty big fan of e-sports. It was only making a small, unrelated comment, but I can expand that thought. Fighting games have characters with unique, characteristic move-sets while riot releases bland, similar champions (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=37574506) every 2 weeks. The Fighting Game community thrives off of being a close community (with friendly ****-talking, admittedly) whereas in LoL (and any other ARTS) you get raged at and reported for feeding first blood. League of Legends is successful as an e-sport because so many damn people play it. Why do you think Evo is selective about the fighters that they throw in there? Why is melee, despite how obviously fun and competitive it is, not invited to evo every year? Money makes e-sports, and viewers make money. Riot got themselves into E-sports through popularity of interest. It's easy to learn but hard to master (Plus all of your friends play it!).
I don't like the idea of comparing a game like melee (in any shape or form), which has thrived off of community support for the past 12 years, to a game like LoL that found its success through an easy f2p system that gave them enough money to fund their own way into e-sports so that they could make even more money.
On-topic: Speaking of money, Nintendo believes that trying to cater to everyone is the best route to take to generate the most interest and thus profit. I don't see them supporting e-sports/competitive gaming anytime soon (Not that I wouldn't want it, though :D)
World
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2007
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- 37
The community had the decision of which smash game to support to get into Evo during
the breast cancer drive.
Brawl didn't even make it into the top 10 of the final drive results.
The hype surrounding Melee's inclusion in this year's EVO also attributed to the now beaten
view record for a fighting game stream. There's no indication that Brawl would have reached a similar number.
KingofPhantoms
The Spook Factor
The overall amount of Brawl hate has primarilly spawned from the change in physics.
The physics weren't butchered, a majority of Brawl haters simply refused to adapt to it.
I'm now going to report this thread as it could potentially spawn flame wars.
The physics weren't butchered, a majority of Brawl haters simply refused to adapt to it.
I'm now going to report this thread as it could potentially spawn flame wars.
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
Yeah I was getting ready to put that and explain how wrong you are because as usual you post things based upon opinion and don't do research. This thread as a whole is unnecessary.
KingofPhantoms
The Spook Factor
It's a shame the dude will probably fail to realize that and will post another whiny thread about Melee 2.0 again in the future.
Just did research dog. Found out we lost to marvel by about 7000 viewers. Which is still a tremendous victory for the melee community.
Well that sure sounds like me.
Ulevo
Smash Master
The overall hate has primarily spawned because there is a very, very, very long list of problems with the game.
People take statements akin to that as simply being upset about Brawl not being "Melee 2.0", but consider this. Do you believe people whined and complained from the fighting game community when Street Fighter IV was announced? No. They were overjoyed that they were getting a sequel to a game they loved. Do you think they had a problem when the game was released? After all, it is effectively a new game, and not a complete cut and paste of previous Street Fighter franchises. The answer is still no. They didn't do this because Capcom grew upon the winning formula Street Fighter had going for it as a franchise. They kept the familiar but gave it a couple new twists. They added new features and new characters without stripping it of mechanics and features. More importantly, they did this properly without bugs or glitches, and the balance was reasonable.
You can also apply this to basically any recent sequel to any of the fighting game franchise names. Marvel vs Capcom 3, King of Fighters, BlazBlue from Guity Gear, Mortal Kombat. You get the point.
Rather than becoming a brand new Smash game that added something new to the table we could all learn and share, Brawl became the equivalent of someone that was blind folded, stripped naked, turned upside down and beaten to death, and after being robbed left out on the street to rot.
Yeah, people are pretty salty about that. I'm not saying this to try and contribute to the argument, but you need to look at this in fair terms. There's a reason these debates even happen in the first place.
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
Guess what? Some of the brawl community donated to support Melee at EVO. Unlike 95% of the melee community brawl players don't carry unnecessary salt towards people who play different games apart of the same franchise. We have this idea of something called unity. I know many Melee players I am cool with. I actually live in the same city as Dr.PP and he trains with me for brawl once a week. He teams with me and we do extremely well. In fact, two Melee players helped me evolve my brawl game. Unfortunately, most Melee players are not like them at all.
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
More generalizations and stereotyping if you please.
Didn't say he was a random. Said he doesn't place well often which leads me to think brawl is not consistent.
KingofPhantoms
The Spook Factor
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Look, I'm not familiar with Street Fighter or Capcom fighting games, just saying there.
And claiming Brawl is like the way you did was just stupid.
It was an over exaggeration.
Auto-ledge grabbing: OK, I see why this is an issue, some characters can grab on to it at odd times. I don't recall characters being able to grab a ledge when facing the opposite direction of the platform at least.
Speed change: If people would actually bother to try and adapt, they would probably enjoy the game. I admit, some characters had a bad change of speed, like in Melee, Capt. Falcon could be sprinting and jump a great distance in mid-sprint. This is no longer the case in Brawl, so I can see an issue there. Other than running and jumping physics,I don't see an issue. The change allows more concentration, so I don't see how players would have a hard time adapting to that.
Shield and dodging: I believe it is no longer possible to reflect using a shield in Brawl, I'd like for that mechanic to return in Smash 4. Same goes for the rest of the shielding mechanics. I don't think it's huge issue though.
The air dodge is more understandable, you'll have to be more careful and tatical with it. I believe Nintendo made this change, to make things easier, mainly for non-competitive players.
There aren't any other mechanices or features I can think of that are an issue, I don't know absolutely everything about advanced tatics or the competitve Smash.
Ulevo
Smash Master
The list is honestly pretty massive, and it's pretty apparent most people handling your position don't have an awareness of that. I might consider doing a video blog about it or a thread, because there's a lot of things that should be highlighted just from an educational perspective.
MasterOfKnees
Space Pirate
One of the reasons Melee had so many views yesterday was because it was so long ago it last was played at a major event, and the whole controversy also helped it get some attention.
I think Melee can live as a once or twice per year thing, but I don't believe it can hold up to other games if it constantly had to show up at tournaments every year.
As for SSB4, it will probably be able to hold its own for some time judging from the way it seems to be going, but people who only want Melee v2 might aswell just look the other way already. While I had fun watching the stream yesterday I don't really want to see another game like it, I want a new kind of Smash Bros, because for me Smash Bros has never and will never be about competitive play, it's much better than that.
I think Melee can live as a once or twice per year thing, but I don't believe it can hold up to other games if it constantly had to show up at tournaments every year.
As for SSB4, it will probably be able to hold its own for some time judging from the way it seems to be going, but people who only want Melee v2 might aswell just look the other way already. While I had fun watching the stream yesterday I don't really want to see another game like it, I want a new kind of Smash Bros, because for me Smash Bros has never and will never be about competitive play, it's much better than that.
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The thread's title is misleading.
(I'm a casual player, I've got nothing to contribute to this thread, and I'm out.)
(I'm a casual player, I've got nothing to contribute to this thread, and I'm out.)
World
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2007
- Messages
- 37
Of course both games can exist in the same community.
Got my ass kicked at a Brawl tournament to Awol and Chess? in FL.
However I'm sure that anyone here can admit that Brawl would have been a momentum killer if it streamed after the KoF finals due to its focus on slower based gameplay and less technical approach.
That is not what we need for Smash's first major showing in its return to EVO.
SSB 4 does not need to entirely focused on the competitive side. It would most likely do better as a mixture of both Melee and Brawl.
Luckily Sakurai has stated that was his intentions for the next Smash installment so
the only problem I see for is the Wii U's low install base.
It actually was about 136.500, at the very least I saw it at over 136k.
I think that makes it #2 in viewer count after UMVC3. This is a great achievement when we consider that at least in my opinion the top 8 games weren't really that great and many of the more exciting games were earlier on in the brackets. It's a remarkable achievement for a 12-year-old game.
I think that makes it #2 in viewer count after UMVC3. This is a great achievement when we consider that at least in my opinion the top 8 games weren't really that great and many of the more exciting games were earlier on in the brackets. It's a remarkable achievement for a 12-year-old game.
Priap0s
Smash Journeyman
Comparing RIOTs approach with LoL to what Nintendo should do with smash is just dumb. Everyone have a pc, LoL is free to try out so the competetive scene is a great way for them to draw in players who then spend cash later on. For smash you gotta buy a wiiU and the game before you can even try it.
Also Smash is, and most likely will be, a one time purchase thing and it has its tourneys rarely. LoL have tournaments all the time and they have consistent income from selling cosmetics, champions and **** in game. So by promoting and pooring money into their scene they get the game covered and they attract players, get revenue from adds on their streams and sell in game stuff. It's marketing. If the same type of marketing would be applied succesfully to smash the game as a whole would need to undergo a huge ammount of changes.
I personally do believe that even if Smash came wiht buyable costumes, equipment and stuff it could never reach this stage. A fighting game is a bit one sided. I don't see people watching big smash matches every day on twitch it works with a big tournament now and then. In the long run it would probably be to repetetive to keep it alive and watched by so many people on a daily basis. Considering the userbase and accesibility of the game is also alot smaller.
And the talk about Melee - Brawl... Get over it already, wich game anyone in here prefers and why has nothing to do with anything. How some people manage to keep this going still is a mystery. Just because you love your car and would never buy another doesn't mean you have to **** talk your neighbours car and say he should switch from that crap. Do what you like and lets others do what they like. Grow up.
Also Smash is, and most likely will be, a one time purchase thing and it has its tourneys rarely. LoL have tournaments all the time and they have consistent income from selling cosmetics, champions and **** in game. So by promoting and pooring money into their scene they get the game covered and they attract players, get revenue from adds on their streams and sell in game stuff. It's marketing. If the same type of marketing would be applied succesfully to smash the game as a whole would need to undergo a huge ammount of changes.
I personally do believe that even if Smash came wiht buyable costumes, equipment and stuff it could never reach this stage. A fighting game is a bit one sided. I don't see people watching big smash matches every day on twitch it works with a big tournament now and then. In the long run it would probably be to repetetive to keep it alive and watched by so many people on a daily basis. Considering the userbase and accesibility of the game is also alot smaller.
And the talk about Melee - Brawl... Get over it already, wich game anyone in here prefers and why has nothing to do with anything. How some people manage to keep this going still is a mystery. Just because you love your car and would never buy another doesn't mean you have to **** talk your neighbours car and say he should switch from that crap. Do what you like and lets others do what they like. Grow up.
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