100% Accurate Move List for Hitbox Frames

[Makkun]

MAR 29: Added Ike
FEB 20: Thread started - First part of list released

Hopefully I will start updating this...

This thread will be completed over the course of the next few weeks, please keep that in mind when posting.

So, the Debug Code was released a few weeks ago. This allows one to play Brawl frame-by-frame, perfectly timing attacks, and doing whatever else one might be able to do with that sort of power.

The day the code was released, I started recording some frame data. I started with things such as Metaknight's D-smash and Fox's Shine. I realized that, unless I am completely missing something, this code only allows us to find the exact duration of an animation, and that initial frames hitboxes come out during each attack. We are not able to see the hitboxes, nor is there any practical way of finding out how long each hitbox lasts.

I then started compiling a list of exactly what frame the hitbox comes out for each attack for each character. School has been killing me, so I haven't gotten very far. I was contacted by a SWF member named Red-Blue, requesting that we turn this project into a collaboration. I gladly accepted, as this work would be much more accurate and far less time-consuming with other people's assistance.

Blah blah blah, I will edit this later. For now I'll just post what I've recorded so far. Yes, I realize I haven't recorded dash grabs yet. If I've missed anything else, PLEASE inform me. I wasn't planning on releasing the list until it was complete, but I figured now might be as best a time as any to release what I've recorded so far.

Also, I know frame lists have been out for a long time on each character's specific board, however, I do not believe the methods used to record such data were 100% accurate. Plus, this list will serve as a general database of frame knowledge, instead of forcing one to search each specific board in order to find the data.

Any errors found will be fixed immediately...

This list is NOT the frame time for full animations of attacks, but rather a list of EXACTLY what frame each hitbox comes out.

*Grab frame was determined by the frame where the character being grabbed "flinched"

Shield up: 1
Shield down: 1
Frames of lag after shield has disappeared: 7

Misc: The % counter at the bottom of the screen "jiggles" for 12 frames every time you are hit regardless of strength.

Mario

Jab: 2,13,27
DashAtk: 6
Utilt: 5
Ftilt: 5
Dtilt: 5
Usmash: 10
Fsmash: 15
Dsmash: 5
Grab: 6
Nair: 3
Uair: 4
Fair: 19
Dair: 5,11,17,23,29,34,45
Bair: 6
B: 14
SB: 12
UB: 3,13,18,23,29,35
DB: 109 to charge; after: comes out on 21, lasts about 60 frames

Wolf

Jab: 4,18,31
DashAtk: 11
Utilt: 7
Ftilt: 8
Dtilt: 5
Usmash: 13,26
Fsmash: 10,21
Dsmash: 8,14
Grab: 6
Nair: 4
Uair: 7
Fair: 8
Dair: 16
Bair: 6
B: 11,25 (Bowser from 0%)
SB: 20
UB: 23,31,35,39,43,47,55
DB: 8

Meta Knight

Jab: 7,15,28,41,49...
DashAtk: 5
Utilt: 8
Ftilt: 3,?,?
Dtilt: 3
Usmash: 8
Fsmash: 24
Dsmash: 5
Grab: 6
Nair: 3
Uair: 2
Fair: 6,15,23
Dair: 4
Bair: 7,18,30
B: 12,17,23,28,37,46,58
SB: 26,36,46,56...?
UB: 8, glide attack: 5
DB: 42

Luigi

Jab: 2,14,27
DashAtk: 4,10,16,22,29,37,47
Utilt: 5
Ftilt: 5
Dtilt: 5
Usmash: 9
Fsmash: 12
Dsmash: 5
Grab: 6
Nair: 3
Uair: 5
Fair: 8
Dair: 10
Bair: 6
B: 17
SB: 22
UB: 6
DB: 7,19,31,43,60
DTaunt: 46

Peach

Jab: 2,14
DashAtk: 6,22
Utilt: 10
Ftilt: 6
Dtilt: 12
Usmash: 14
Fsmash: 15
Dsmash: 6,16,26,36
Grab: 6
Nair: 3
Uair: 8
Fair: 19
Dair: 12,23,34,45
Bair: 6
B: ?
SB: 23
UB: 7,16,28,40,48,
DB: ?

Donkey Kong

Jab: 5,21
DashAtk: 9
Utilt: 5
Ftilt: 8
Dtilt: 6
Usmash: 14
Fsmash: 21
Dsmash: 10
Grab: 8
Nair: 10
Uair: 8
Fair: 27
Dair: 18
Bair: 7
B: 19
SB: 20
UB: 19,29,39...
DB: 19...

Diddy Kong

Jab: 3,16,33,47,57,66...
DashAtk: 9,19,28
Utilt: 6
Ftilt: 10
Dtilt: 4
Usmash: 5,16,28,
Fsmash: 12,26
Dsmash: 6,15
Grab: 6
Nair: 10
Uair: 3
Fair: 6
Dair: 13
Bair: 5
B: 14
SB: 19;12
UB: 8
DB: ?

Yoshi

Jab: 3,16
DashAtk: 10
Utilt: 7
Ftilt: 6
Dtilt: 8
Usmash: 11
Fsmash: 14
Dsmash: 6,22
Grab: 17
Nair: 5
Uair: 5
Fair: 20
Dair: 16,23,30,37,44,51,57,65,72,79,86,?
Bair: 10,21,33,45
B: 17
SB: 24
UB: 19
DB: 7,30?

Wario

Jab: 8,23
DashAtk: 4
Utilt: 12
Ftilt: 14
Dtilt: 5
Usmash: 11,17,23,29,35,41
Fsmash: 9
Dsmash: 10(back is 8)
Grab: 6
Nair: 4
Uair: 8
Fair: 5
Dair: 9,15,21,27,33,39,45
Bair: 9
B: 8
SB: 20
UB: 6,13,19,25,31,37,43,49,55,61,67,72
DB: 9 (fully charged)

Link

Jab: 8,21,36
DashAtk: 8
Utilt: 8
Ftilt: 15
Dtilt: 13
Usmash: 10,31,51
Fsmash: 15,39(hitlag?)
Dsmash: 9,20
Grab: 12
Nair: 7
Uair: 11
Fair: 14,26
Dair: 14
Bair: 6,18
B: 18 (60 frames to fully charge)
SB: 27
UB: 11 (70 fully charged)
DB: Able to throw bomb on frame 40, 8 frames for bomb hitbox to come out

Zelda

Jab: 11,20,29,
DashAtk: 6
Utilt: 10
Ftilt: 12
Dtilt: 5
Usmash: 6,11,16,21,26,31...
Fsmash: 16,22,28,34,40
Dsmash: 4
Grab: 12
Nair: 6,11,14,22,30,38
Uair: 15
Fair: 8
Dair: 15
Bair: 5
B: 13,16,19,22,25,28
SB: 31 (shortest distance)
UB: 11
DB: ?

Sheik

Jab: 2,14,32,40,48,56,64...
DashAtk: 5
Utilt: 5,21
Ftilt: 5
Dtilt: 5
Usmash: 11,23
Fsmash: 12,26
Dsmash: 4,?,?...
Grab: 6
Nair: 3
Uair: 4
Fair: 5
Dair: 16
Bair: 4
B: 11
SB: 22
UB: 36
DB: ?

Ganondorf

Jab: 8
DashAtk: 10
Utilt: 81
Ftilt: 10
Dtilt: 10
Usmash: 21
Fsmash: 21
Dsmash: 15,35
Grab: 7
Nair: 7,20
Uair: 6
Fair: 16
Dair: 16
Bair: 10
B: 70
SB: 16
UB: 14
DB: 16

Toon Link

Jab: 6,19,33
DashAtk: 9
Utilt: 8
Ftilt: 10
Dtilt: 9
Usmash: 11
Fsmash: 15,36
Dsmash: 9,17
Grab: 12
Nair: 6,13
Uair: 11
Fair: 14
Dair: 12
Bair: 6
B: 17 (60 frames to fully charge, 1 frame for hitbox)
SB: 27
UB: 11...
DB: 39 frames to pull, 8 frames to throw

Ike

Ike

Jab: 3, 19, 38
DashAtk: 18
Utilt: 13
Ftilt: 17
Dtilt: 16
Usmash: 25
Fsmash: 31
Dsmash: 13, 29
Grab: 7
Nair: 15
Uair: 15
Fair: 18
Dair: 16
Bair: 7
B: 30 ...
SB: 19 ...
UB: 18
DB: ??? (counter)

I am hoping that this list will aid competitive Smash in general, as well as the creation of character-specific balance codes.

I will "pretty-up" this thread in due time, however the data isn't even complete so I won't worry about it until later.

 

[ndayday]

That's a nice and neat list.

I however must ask, why do you have Shiek and Zelda's DB's as a question mark? Have you not recorded that data, or is it because it's hard to find etc.? In either case, this whole thing is very nice. Can't wait to see the final product...keep up the good work! (Same goes for Red-Blue)

 

[Makkun]

That's a nice and neat list.

I however must ask, why do you have Shiek and Zelda's DB's as a question mark? Have you not recorded that data, or is it because it's hard to find etc.? In either case, this whole thing is very nice. Can't wait to see the final product...keep up the good work! (Same goes for Red-Blue)

Because they don't have hitboxes.

 

[ph00tbag]

I have most of the stuff for ZSS, if you'd like it. I don't have grabs and dash grabs or get-ups yet, but I can get them easily.

 

[Makkun]

I would appreciate that a lot!

 

[The Trump Card]

Wow, Meta Knight, Mario, and Sheik's atks come out so fast.

 

[Levitas]

I wouldn't worry about Ness, Lucas, ROB, or really anyone, as I have complete frame data for ness and lucas and am going to get data for ROB over the next week.

Smash lab is working on complete frame data for all characters, and we're using absolutely guaranteed methods. I used a hack for mine (debug, as well)



Also, did you account for hitlag on the attack frame data for multi-hit moves?

 

[Makkun]

@Levitas: I couldn't account for hitlag for multihit moves, so I just counted the frames including hitlag. This would be for moves like MK's tornado or Yoshi' bair for instance. However, moves like Link's bair, or multiple characters' dsmash, I timed the move so only the second attack would connect. (Link's upsmash, I did not do this)

 

[kupo15]

Can't you use the hitlag modifier and reduce it by such an amount that all hitlag is gone?

Look at the first line in your quote

 

[Makkun]

Thanks, Kupo.

And also, that could probably work. I've never messed with making my own codes before though. Is there a simple way to set it to zero?

 

[kupo15]

C2771EAC 00000004
2C040000 41800010
1C840001 38840000
39C0001D 7C8473D6
2C040000 00000000
C2876220 00000004
2C040000 41800010
1C840001 38840000
39C0001D 7C8473D6
80660064 00000000

You can give this a try.

Its mult by 1/30. I don't think there is a hitlag value above 29

 

[Red-Blue]

Kupo, savin' the day. Many thankies and whatnot.

Makkun, I will be using your character-specific template until I contact you. I did alot of wrong stuff, and I'll be starting from scratch when I contact you. We need to talk about variables, and you need to explain a few things about your manner of frame collecting.

 

[Makkun]

Kupo, savin' the day. Many thankies and whatnot.

Makkun, I will be using your character-specific template until I contact you. I did alot of wrong stuff, and I'll be starting from scratch when I contact you. We need to talk about variables, and you need to explain a few things about your manner of frame collecting.

Okay. I may even start from scratch also if we find any major errors in my list. I don't know what I'm doing today, but for this morning and most of the early afternoon I know I will be home probably just playing Street Fighter.

Edit: Kupo, I'm not familiar with the hitlag code. So the code you provided will give accurate frame readings, disregarding all hitstun?

 

[GimR]

Is there any way you could test when the how long the hit boxes stay out?

 

[Makkun]

Is there any way you could test when the how long the hit boxes stay out?

I couldn't think of any creative ways to get around the blocks and actually doing this, so no... Sadly. If someone can somehow make hitboxes visible, this would be highly possible.

Edit: The "blocks" being the fact that I can't do it.

... My posts do not make sense in this thread.

 

[olsonpm]

This looks great; I only have one request though. When you finish the list could you alphabetize it? haha.

Thanks for your time put into this.

 

[Makkun]

Yes it will be alphabetized. ^_^

Right now it's in the order of going through each column. There are some odd ones in there I believe, such as Metaknight.

 

[kupo15]

Okay. I may even start from scratch also if we find any major errors in my list. I don't know what I'm doing today, but for this morning and most of the early afternoon I know I will be home probably just playing Street Fighter.

Edit: Kupo, I'm not familiar with the hitlag code. So the code you provided will give accurate frame readings, disregarding all hitstun?

where does hitstun come in? It doesn't happen till afterwards and whatever happens to your opponent shouldn't matter anyway. With that code, there should be no slowing down at impacts. All moves should behave as if you never hit anyone with it so falcon's knee cuts through ppl like butter unless it is more than 29 frames by default. Tell me if any move slows down when you hit them

 

[Levitas]

Hitstun isn't what he's talking about. Hitlag is. If you have this code, just count the frames of any(non-projectile) move (input on frame 1, hold R until you see a shield).
0_o he did reference hitstun


Then count the frames of the same move with a hit. The difference is hitlag.

@ makkun, it was a bit tricky, but I used SDI to get out of each hit on moves with non-uniform hitlag and just subtracted the hitlag from moves that have uniform hitlag. It makes data on certain aerials more useful (like the window that you have to initiate an aerial so that you can auto-cancel)

There are workarounds to find how long a move is out, but it's a pain most of the time.

Last thing, having two standards for multi-hit moves is bad policy, especially when you don't specify explicitly which each follows, regarding the difference between link's usmash and something you spaced to only hit w/ the second hit.


Also, there's a very low chance of it being possible to make a visible hitbox code in any practical manner.

 

[kupo15]

Here is an idea. We can speed up animations such as the side step. So you can make Marios side step last 1 frame, dks 2 ...... lucas's 40?

 

[Levitas]

That's more tedious than the method we currently have and isn't any better. Also, are you talking about the invincibility or the whole animation? lucas's invincibility is from 2-20 but his spotdodge lasts until 25

Just jab the move with squirtle or ZSS, but if the move doesn't cover a highly constrained area (like lucas's usmash) it's a pain to position it.

You'll either get your fist hit or a clank bubble will come out if it's a hit frame.

 

[kupo15]

well scotu asked me for a code to toggle invincibility so that's the best I could think of for the momentum. I would think it would work well with the debug code

 

[Levitas]

If you could have a code that toggles invincibility with a button press, that's a whole different story.

It would be so handy to even have a code that allows you to have a P2 that's invincible until you press some button (like any non-jump button, really) as long as it happened every time that character got respawned.

As little as I know, having a code where you make the spotdodge animation last different lengths would take away the advantage of being able to move to hard to reach places while an attack animation is going on, and you'd have to account for each character's spotdodge invincibility length, which I'm pretty sure is different for some characters.

Of course, I don't know anything about hacking, so toggling invincibility like that might be really hard as opposed to something else that would be similar.

Edit: now that I think about it, the game should have two things you can make use of: a counter for invincibility from spawn, and a boolean value somewhere that determines whether you're in a state of "invincibility". if you can find the whether that value is and toggle it with a button press, that would probably be the simplest way, and probably is what scotu meant. I'll talk w/ him about it later.

 

[kupo15]

I'm pretty sure toggle invincibility is not that hard of a code. I asked phantom about it last night.

I was thinking this. You use debug to find out how long spot dodging for each character is (yourll prob do this anyway). Say Marios is 30 frames, and DK is 35. Speed up Mario's by 30 to make it 1 and DKs up to I think 17.5? which will make it 2 frames.

ZSS jab lasts frame 1-3. So the frame you press jab, you side step with mario, mario misses frame 1 but hits frame 2. Do the same process with DK. DK misses frame 1-2 but hits on 3

 

[Levitas]

I get that, but if you do it by character, then you have to exit out of the game to test each move way more than what's convenient.

It would be easier to have ZSS stand next to an mario, hit on frame 1. Then turn on invincibility for mario for frame 1, off for frame 2 and watch it hit. repeat for the form for all moves

trial# > invincible for trial#-1 frames, see if hits

As opposed to

trial# > exit out of game when trial# = 3N and N is an integer because your range of invincibility only covers 3 frames max.

Thanks for the prompt replies, btw.

 

[kupo15]

Oh no, I understand that toggle invinc would be easier, but you can select 4 characters at once so you can have the tested character and 1, 2, 3 frames testing. So you can test all the small moves with them for each character then go up to 4, 5, 6 or w/e. But in any case, I asked pw about it.

Question, does starman still keep your hitbox but you don't get hurt? Because the invincibility after dying allows you to hit that person which would shut off the hitbox of that move

 

[Levitas]

I see. That's a problem.

I'll check the starman thing sometime today.

 

[kupo15]

yea that is what made me think about the side steps in the first place

 

[Levitas]

scotu says ankoku says you can be hit by a move that's hit you when invincible if you come out while the hitbox is still out.

 

[Adapt]

scotu says ankoku says you can be hit by a move that's hit you when invincible if you come out while the hitbox is still out.

I was just about to post this.

I've done it several times with plasma whip (which has a decently long hitbox)

 

[kupo15]

scotu says ankoku says you can be hit by a move that's hit you when invincible if you come out while the hitbox is still out.

That is a problem. So you need a code that can turn off Side stepping at will and make the side step last super long

 

[ph00tbag]

Then count the frames of the same move with a hit. The difference is hitlag.

Once you've seen how the move animation works, you can actually just count the hitlag right there. It's usually really obvious when hitlag ends.

Also, for counting shieldhitlag and shieldhitstun, I know that exiting shieldhitlag is marked by a flash on the shield, but has everyone else been measuring that as the last frame of shieldhitlag, or the first frame of shieldhitstun? I've been counting it as the latter.

 

[Galanoth7395]

I find it interesting that DK and Zelda's (plus Ganondorf to a lesser extent) grabs have more startup time than other characters with "normal" grabs. It has always seemed somewhat difficult to grab with DK.

 

[Levitas]

Once you've seen how the move animation works, you can actually just count the hitlag right there. It's usually really obvious when hitlag ends.

Also, for counting shieldhitlag and shieldhitstun, I know that exiting shieldhitlag is marked by a flash on the shield, but has everyone else been measuring that as the last frame of shieldhitlag, or the first frame of shieldhitstun? I've been counting it as the latter.

I prefer to do it this way simply because there are some instances where hitlag can be deceptive. This is a 100% guaranteed way.

Also, it's important to test completely undecayed moves for hitlag.


ph00t, I've been counting the flash as the last frame of blockhitlag, and the one after that (where you actually do start moving) is the first of blockhitstun.

 

[Makkun]

I find it interesting that DK and Zelda's (plus Ganondorf to a lesser extent) grabs have more startup time than other characters with "normal" grabs. It has always seemed somewhat difficult to grab with DK.

Yeah, I freaked out when I realized Zelda had the same grab startup as LINK.

@Kupo: In my last post, I was referring to hitlag at the end, not hitstun. Typo

@Community: Sorry I haven't been on Smashboards at all lately. School is killing me. I have something like... nine projects due on Friday? After this weekend Red-Blue and I are going to be starting over and working on this frame list from scratch.