Official 1.1.5 patch notes- no I'm not joking

[GerudoKong]

Is the Dsmash buff significant enough to make it a usable kill move?

 

[exnecross]

Is the Dsmash buff significant enough to make it a usable kill move?

No, not unless you're going for the mixiest of mixups. Poor KB is not the primary reason it's never used.

 

[Skydra]

So F-throw > Uair seemed to be a 50/50 on no DI or DI in. Unfortunately DI away makes it difficult to impossible to land anything even at a 50/50 rate. Still an option, often a mixup, at higher percents in which down-throw doesn't really do anything but position them for a juggle. It's really hard to take in the dthrow nerf, it may take a while to get it out of my muscle memory to d-throw every time at high percent. Good thing I've been practicing Bayonetta...

At least we still have bouncing fish as a viable kill option off the side out of needles, nair, and sometimes fair. And Usmash for when you can get a read or punish a really laggy move.

Downsmash buff doesn't really do anything unless you get a really hard read, since its a really bad move most of the time.

 

[exnecross]

So F-throw > Uair seemed to be a 50/50 on no DI or DI in. Unfortunately DI away makes it difficult to impossible to land anything even at a 50/50 rate. Still an option, often a mixup, at higher percents in which down-throw doesn't really do anything but position them for a juggle. It's really hard to take in the dthrow nerf, it may take a while to get it out of my muscle memory to d-throw every time at high percent. Good thing I've been practicing Bayonetta...

At least we still have bouncing fish as a viable kill option off the side out of needles, nair, and sometimes fair. And Usmash for when you can get a read or punish a really laggy move.

Downsmash buff doesn't really do anything unless you get a really hard read, since its a really bad move most of the time.

uair off grab is over. There's no reason to DI inward from fthrow or dthrow at high percents, as long as your opponent is not a scrub then Sheik is going to have a serious problem with killing now. Also, without grab to fear it will be much harder to set up a nair or needles to bf since they know that is our primary option now. Dare I say, Sheik may actually struggle with shield at kill percents.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Also pretty ****ing stupid considering this is a direct nerf to Zelda, arguably the worst character in the game.

Unless they didn't also reduce Zelda's weight this time, which would make even less sense.

To be fair I always thought Zelda should have been heavier. At least it would make sense. She's wearing heavier clothing such as a dress and boots, and armor, and also has more hair. All this points at being a bit heavier.

 

[et3rnal]

Does the tumble out of fthrow change anything for us?

 

[Skydra]

uair off grab is over. There's no reason to DI inward from fthrow or dthrow at high percents, as long as your opponent is not a scrub then Sheik is going to have a serious problem with killing now. Also, without grab to fear it will be much harder to set up a nair or needles to bf since they know that is our primary option now. Dare I say, Sheik may actually struggle with shield at kill percents.

Agreed for the most part on uair, I only mention it for the odd mixup situation where you throw them off.

While we still have some of the best if not the best frame data in the game getting people offstage may be the only way to kill with any sort of true setup. Honestly it would have been OK to nerf some things other than kill options, but I guess that's what they wanted the character to be from the start (ridiculous potential for adding up percent but low kill power) and they may have finally gotten it.

Not sure what's with the lack of changes on Bayonetta though. If the dev team pays any attention to the game they should know how deadly she is compared to basically every other character after this nerf.

 

[Jaxas]

Hang on, isn't Bthrow -> BF a 50/50 depending on DI?
I don't know what DI that punishes, but if it's towards Sheik (aka away from Sheik on Fthrow), that could be a good mixup (or at least a way to get them to not DI that way every time)

 

[regularkid123]

Shiek hit with the Nerf Hammer of justice?

 

[C3CC]

PRAISE THE LORD for this nerf, especially for the Needle Storm nerf! PRAISE-THE-LORD!!

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Sheik also had some of the best frame data in brawl and that didn't really get her anywhere.

This patch is going to be the end of #1 for Sheik and that's a guarantee. The stress of netting kills is now literally absurd.

 

[HoSmash4]

Sheik also had some of the best frame data in brawl and that didn't really get her anywhere.

This patch is going to be the end of #1 for Sheik and that's a guarantee. The stress of netting kills is now literally absurd.

Most likely.

Sheik has needles nerfed. She cant use needles on opponents who deal more damage for getting in.
Sheik's fair range was nerfed, she cant pressure as safely in neutral
Sheik's downthrow 50/50 was reduced to being very percent specific. A lot of kill setups are gone

Nerf culture is strong.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Yeah, this nerf is looking more intimidating by the second ;_;

Worst problem is i cant test it for at least a week. Damn.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Well, I'm having a little crisis in the update history thread. Higher numbers mean I color them green, but holy junk do I want to mark the throw changes red. Maybe if I go with black, they won't affect anything...

 

[Flux0r]

The weight nerf is surprisingly ineffective. In the last patch she was even unaffected, despite the unit decrease.

Tested at Final Destination in the center with no DI.

Mario's sweetspotted F-Smash: ​

89% in 1.1.4
87% in 1.1.5

Mario's U-Smash:

106% in 1.1.4
103% in 1.1.5
​

Dying earlier sucks of course, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

On the bright side, D-Smash KO's 8% sooner. Yay...? I guess?

 

[Axel311]

Can't believe I'm saying this but I actually feel a bit sorry for Sheik mains. Nerfs may have been excessive, we'll have to see. I wouldn't rage too much about getting slaps on the wrist. I think that shows us the game will continue to be patched and I'm assuming how new Bayo is is the reason she didn't get too many nerfs this time around, not enough data yet. Next patch though I'd expect that to change, no way they don't touch her zero to death combos. And if Cloud continues to dominate, I think they'll touch his frame data.

 

[Metallinatus]

The weight nerf is surprisingly ineffective. In the last patch she was even unaffected, despite the unit decrease.

Tested at Final Destination in the center with no DI.

Mario's sweetspotted F-Smash: ​

89% in 1.1.4
87% in 1.1.5

Mario's U-Smash:

106% in 1.1.4
103% in 1.1.5
​

Dying earlier sucks of course, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

On the bright side, D-Smash KO's 8% sooner. Yay...? I guess?

Ok, now compare that to Sheik before the other weight decrease she got recently and think if in the end it's not quite big....

 

[Thor]

Given how the last patch thread ended, this patch is deliciously ironic.

I took a pair of screenshots of Furil's hitbox images - fair definitely has less range now (assuming images are correct). If people wanna see them I can post them here later.

Considering picking this character back up again - she looks more interesting now, and I always had a soft spot for dsmash... maybe the buff makes it useful now?

 

[ArikadoSD]

Given how the last patch thread ended, this patch is deliciously ironic.

I took a pair of screenshots of Furil's hitbox images - fair definitely has less range now (assuming images are correct). If people wanna see them I can post them here later.

Considering picking this character back up again - she looks more interesting now, and I always had a soft spot for dsmash... maybe the buff makes it useful now?

Dsmash is still as useless as ever. Maybe a niche use could be found for it but I doubt it.

 

[Absol]

Maybe I can be unique with sheik again now.

 

[Zethoro]

FThrow 50/50s are a thing now because of this though, right?

 

[OathToAwesome]

FThrow 50/50s are a thing now because of this though, right?

They've always been a thing. The fthrow 50/50 where you either go for usmash or uair when your opponent is sent over the stage might not work if they DI the fthrow out, but I can't see any reason the classic fthrow -> instant/delayed Bouncing Fish 50/50 wouldn't work this patch.

 

[ArikadoSD]

I don't see how it's a 50/50 when the opponent can just like, you know

hold the control stick either left or right

 

[OathToAwesome]

I don't see how it's a 50/50 when the opponent can just like, you know

hold the control stick either left or right

Which 50/50 are you referring to?

 

[TurboLink]

Does anyone else think they should've given Sheik her pre-patch bair back as compensation?

 

[ArikadoSD]

Which 50/50 are you referring to?

Well fthrow was changed so u can't rely on the old fthrow > bf or wait for airdodge then bf to work the same way. i haven't tested it yet but it seems unlikely w/ the new angle and they could probably just jump.

 

[OathToAwesome]

Well fthrow was changed so u can't rely on the old fthrow > bf or wait for airdodge then bf to work the same way. i haven't tested it yet but it seems unlikely w/ the new angle and they could probably just jump.

Yeah, the angle might screw with things a bit, but if it's not like stupidly vertical the jump startup out of hitstun/tumble/whatever state the dthrow 50/50 used to put them in, it's probably still usable.

Of course, bear in mind I'm saying this without extensive testing, so if someone could play a reasonably high-level player and see if I'm wrong that would be far more useful.

 

[exnecross]

I'm just coming to terms with how huge of a nerf the fair range was. Spacing around fairs against many of the cast has become either ridiculously tight or impossible. Retreating fairs to punish approaches won't be as safe. Mario bair and Diddy's fair will eat us alive. Hopefully someone makes a list of moves we no longer outrange, my will to lab is gone.

People will still say Sheik has a broken neutral though.

 

[TurboLink]

I'm just coming to terms with how huge of a nerf the fair range was. Spacing around fairs against many of the cast has become either ridiculously tight or impossible. Retreating fairs to punish approaches won't be as safe. Mario bair and Diddy's fair will eat us alive. Hopefully someone makes a list of moves we no longer outrange, my will to lab is gone.

People will still say Sheik has a broken neutral though.

Sheik's fair really can't contend with Marth's fair now. It's only one frame slower with far more disjoint and range.

 

[exnecross]

Rest in ****ing peace needles.

 

[Zult]

Rest in ****ing peace needles.

Can you explain this picture?

 

[Simikins]

Sheik 00:00

• Dsmash KBG: 155 -> 165
• Fair:
  • Defensive Hitbox Z Postion: 3.5 -> 2.5
  • Hitbox Z Position: 3.5 -> 2.5
• Fthrow:
  • Angle: 70 -> 72
  • KBG: 65 -> 79
• Dthrow:
  • Angle: 80 -> 77
  • KBG: 75 -> 90
• Needle: Range Decreased
• Weight: 84 -> 81

Taken from here.

What these changes mean.

Dsmash buff - Kills 8% earlier (according to Flux0r , I'm gonna trust him on that as I can't test right now :/ )
Fair range nerf - Fair is less safe on shield, definitely not safe on powershield. Many aerials will outspace us now. I'm wondering if this means that the 5% hit range is smaller...
https://twitter.com/DAT_VwS_GP/status/710096350197751808

Fthrow nerf - Harder to combo, DI becomes much for effective at making BF not connect, meaning we'll have to work harder with DI dependent followups, and reading DI.

Dthrow nerf - bybye 50/50 versus most characters. Apparently works at very specific %s verse most of the cast, so we'll have to learn the specific %s and just not go for it against the characters who avoid it completely.

Needle range decreased - Run away needles is a worse option, playing defensive is harder, aerial needles as an edgeguard is less effective as doesn't reach as far below stage.

Weight change - We die a few % earlier. Learn how to DI in every situation and make good use of bf and fair as momentum cancel and hitbox shift.


We are a lot worse now...
Still very viable, but we no longer have positive MUs against every character, ryu , rosa, bayo, cloud and maybe a coupleothers may have a small advantage over us.

 

[Drig786]

i like these nerfs.. sorry sheik mains but....

 

[exnecross]

Can you explain this picture?

Essentially the range at which it is safe to use needles in neutral. Green is the safe zone, red is the danger zone. Top is prepatch and below is current patch. Reference image from Zero's twitter.

 

[TurboLink]

So, what do we all think of the Needle Storm nerf? Could balancing Needle Storm have been handled better? I think Needle Storm would've been fine if they lowered the KBG, gave it a bit more startup, and possibly took away the Transcendent Priority.

 

[Funbot28]

so does Shiek still have any chance to be #1, I still believe she is pretty amazing tbh...

 

[Flux0r]

so does Shiek still have any chance to be #1, I still believe she is pretty amazing tbh...

Maybe? Only time will tell. She is unarguably still top 5.

 

[exnecross]

Maybe? Only time will tell. She is unarguably still top 5.

I argue against that. There is legitimate reason to believe she is disadvantaged against many of the top tiers now. People seem to forget that she was not much better than the other top tiers. This is not Melee Fox, Brawl MK or even prepatch Diddy.

 

[KniteBlargh]

Sorry Sheik mains! I felt sad for you guys when I found out about this... However, I look forward to seeing what you all come up with in future, strategy-wise and so on, so keep up the good work and don't lose hope!

 

[Deleted member]

F-Air hitbox change :