1.1.4 Changes Thread

[EvilPinkamina]

Anyone notice anything from our orange dragon friend?

 

[arbustopachon]

no % changes.

If someone can lab d-throw for a bit i'd really apreciate, i think it had either an angle change or an endlag change but i dont want to spread placebo around.

 

[RadianB]

I can't find any changes.

 

[I Amph-abulous]

Charizard got an increase on height in his up B, and I THINK more aerial speed.

 

[Anonano]

I labbed dthrow>uair and it is a true combo in training mode at high percents, being a kill confirm. My question is whether it can be DIed out of (and whether this was a true combo BEFORE the patch ;P).

As a more specific note, it killed MK starting 80% (confirmed it going to 95%, might go higher) on Omega BF.
Tested it on Ike as well and it was a true combo kill confirm at 100% on Omega BF.

Not sure on the % range, or how DIable it is; it's certainly hard enough to land, leading me to believe it probably can be DIed away from. Maybe UpB is a better alternative? not sure on the frame data difference between the two moves' startups. EDIT: According to Kuragane's data repository, the first hitbox of uair is active frame 12, and Fly frame 16.

Moar Edits: Tested it with my bro on Kirby, Ike, Sheik, and was able to true combo dthrow>uair at 75% on all of them. Had my bro DI the attack away and down and airdodge and he was able to avoid the uair. Sheik seemed entirely able to avoid a followup (flew too far horizontally). Ike was trapped into an usmash followup (which did not kill at that percent). Kirby may or may not be able to do an aerial in time to stop the usmash followup.

Last edit: Looks like he simply started holding away and down with Sheik where he had only been holding away with Ike/Kirby. I suspect the other characters could avoid a followup as well with that DI at high percents.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Last edit: Looks like he simply started holding away and down with Sheik where he had only been holding away with Ike/Kirby. I suspect the other characters could avoid a followup as well with that DI at high percents.

Does d-throw to f-air work later? Could we train people to di to the right to f-air or running u-smash?

 

[WeirdJoe27]

Charizard got an increase on height in his up B, and I THINK more aerial speed.

Placebo or do you have evidence of this?

 

[Anonano]

dthrow to fair does work later (past 70% against Mewtwo staled a bit and w/o DI) dthrow>usmash links pretty well early on--probably not DIable for heavies until 10-30% (bro isn't here to help me test it out). I have to assume the change was a knockback or knockback growth nerf to dthrow, because everything links a little bit better out of it, although we'll have to wait to see what exactly changed.

Nice for Zard to have more mixups though, especially one that can lead to a kill confirm if the foe doesn't DI properly. Frankly, spamming dthrow>fair combos might be a great way to play in order to stale the dthrow knockback and make uair easier to land.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Some quick training mode on dreamland showed d-throw to fly reading as a combo on peach at 70%. It only hit with the final hitbox.


Edit I just realized I haven't even kept up with the particulars of the last patch or two. I don't know what d-throw could do before except lead to f-air at low %

Edit edit I also am not 100% on the limits training mode (is it just no staling rage or of course di by the opponent?)

Edit 3 I'm an idiot that didn't remember that fly's hits combo with themselves

 

[Spannondorf]

First, Hi! I'm new to smashboards! Well, new to posting here. I lurk occasionally...
Second, I just wanted to share some info on down throw that you've been posting. I can confirm that since the June patch that changed Charizard's throws that he's always been able to D-Throw > Up-B and D-Throw Up Air CPUs in training mode and have it count as a combo. I practiced on Roy back then, and I was able to true combo D-Throw > Up Air into a kill. The CPUs DI like garbage, this is something that rarely ever works on a player unless they DI inwards. As an example, try back throw > Jump > Flare Blitz at around 80% in training. It'll count as a true combo, but the odds of landing that are slim to none, especially when you add rage into the mix, which Training Mode ignores.
Something did feel a bit different about the down throw after this patch, but I'm not entirely sure what it is... it might just be a placebo effect.
The only other possible placebo I was feeling was Rock Smash maybe being faster? Not monumentally, but that's really all I felt that was different. Guess we'll have to wait for the data miners to let us know that he's like, one point heavier or something else disappointing...

 

[arbustopachon]

Yeah we'll have to wait for the data miners, apparently there are changes to him tho.

 

[Dustydog96]

After playing with him today dthrow up air seemed... Easier? to hit?. It might have already been like that prepatch though. Because I recall getting it off just having to work for it. Other than that doesn't seem like MUCh has changed. Hopefully the data miners will surprise us.

 

[Steeler]

Well, I am pretty certain nothing about uair speed or size changed. So any potential change would likely be dthrow faf or kb.

 

[arbustopachon]

Lavani confirmed that its knockback didn't change.

 

[randomnessmain]

..........

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

It feels like Charizard's jumps have been buffed, actually; but I'm not saying they are because I'm not sure if that's just placebo.

Air speed and jump height both also seem to have seen buffs, as well; I've been able to recover from near the blastzone on Battlefield with midair jumps and Up-B, which I could never do before.

Ground speed is a little slower than I remember it being last patch, though.

Really, though, we're going to need to organize a labbing room for four Charizard players to mess around and see what's changed. That will be a really good way to see if any changes we note are just placebo or not.

 

[MOI-ARI]

I had posted earlier in the 1.1.4 discussion thread that Charizard's hit 1 of Usmash was 'altered.'

Simply due to the fact that if facing 'away' from say ,Mario, and do Usmash. It'll now always fail to hit Mario into Hit 2.
So not sure if anyone has heard or cares. Seems Hit 1 has decreased KB? Maybe it'll be able connect 'better' now when using the move facing towards Mario.

Also this Video is a little demonstration of some odd Usmash occurance. Hit 1Works as a makeshift jab-reset, and can 'softly spike' airborne opponents.Or has it this been known before?

Also sorry for the quality. And its super hard to keep the 3ds steady when recording!!

wow that quality 'XD....

 

[Steeler]

Also this is a thing now? Or has it been known? Also sorry for the quality. And its super hard to keep the 3ds steady when recording!!

wow that quality 'XD....

oh yeah... after 1.1.3 i got usmash part 1 to jab lock someone on a platform above me... forgot to post about it. didn't think to reverse it to reset someone like that...

did back hit of usmash connect on mario in 1.1.3?

 

[MOI-ARI]

oh yeah... after 1.1.3 i got usmash part 1 to jab lock someone on a platform above me... forgot to post about it. didn't think to reverse it to reset someone like that...

did back hit of usmash connect on mario in 1.1.3?

heh. I was hoping you'd know XD I don't play Charizard much, but I have 1.1.3 and hit 2 would connect on Mario back then.

Now, not so much. facing AWAY for that matter. Used normally it still works fine if not better, in theory.

 

[Steeler]

Lame... they must have changed something else about the knockback or angle then. But the jab lock thing was definitely in place in 1.1.3.

I'm pretty sure Zard has been the most consistently buffed character. And yet they keep buffing the wrong stuff. I think he was buffed in every single balance patch after 1.0.4 (rip Dragon Rush, move was seriously OP...)

 

[MOI-ARI]

But the jab lock thing was definitely in place in 1.1.3.

Awww okay. Thats new information to me...


But yeah hit1 is certainly changed in some way. =)

 

[Virum]

Lame... they must have changed something else about the knockback or angle then. But the jab lock thing was definitely in place in 1.1.3.

I'm pretty sure Zard has been the most consistently buffed character. And yet they keep buffing the wrong stuff. I think he was buffed in every single balance patch after 1.0.4 (rip Dragon Rush, move was seriously OP...)

I'd say that title goes to Ike, particularly since his buffs have skyrocketted him from a formerly bottom 10 character to a solid upper mid/low high tier threat.

 

[Steeler]

I'd say that title goes to Ike, particularly since his buffs have skyrocketted him from a formerly bottom 10 character to a solid upper mid/low high tier threat.

I think he was ignored for a patch or two? While Zard has been changed in every single Wii U patch. But you're right, Ike is the biggest patch success story.

 

[Masonomace]

Charizard got an increase on height in his up B, and I THINK more aerial speed.

Are you absolutely sure? Because I made jump height rankings for UpBs & Charizard's jump height ranking for Fly is still the same as far as the amount of platforms he cleared.

It feels like Charizard's jumps have been buffed, actually; but I'm not saying they are because I'm not sure if that's just placebo.

Air speed and jump height both also seem to have seen buffs, as well; I've been able to recover from near the blastzone on Battlefield with midair jumps and Up-B, which I could never do before.

Ground speed is a little slower than I remember it being last patch, though.

Really, though, we're going to need to organize a labbing room for four Charizard players to mess around and see what's changed. That will be a really good way to see if any changes we note are just placebo or not.

I have jump height rankings for characters including a multi-jump rankings. So:

• I tested Charizard's Short Hop, Full Hop, Doublejump, & Triplejump. They all still land on the same platform height like pre-patch. Even when Charizard would be falling in between his doublejump & triplejump, it didn't change for his multi-jump rankings test on my custom stage. However, if there was a change then you'd need someone to do side-by-side multi-jumping on a flat surface & see if the air time frames for Charizard changed.
• I've also tested Charizard's Fly & came to the conclusion that the height it travels from the ground & in the air are the same, including when you angle the Fly backwards, diagonally backwards, upwards, diagonally forward, & completely sideways forward. Perhaps you used a triplejump in combination with Fly to make it travel vertically higher? That's how it kinda works with Charizard's custom UpB called Rising Cylcone.
• I did the whole Super Leaf drift testing with Charizard & Diddy Kong & they for the most part are near the same air speed value. So if it was buffed, it was very minimal.
• Running speed testing for my case shows me that Charizard & Sheik still are very close to identical run speed. So if there was a change, it was very minimal.
• Walk speed testing for my case shows me that Charizard & Pit are very close to having identical walk speed. So if there was a change it was very minimal.

 

[RadianB]

I'm not sure if I like Charizard's new Up Smash hit box on the second hit. It used to be a decent move for punishing rolls that ended up just behind Charizard due to how quick it was. Now he's got no quick moves for hitting behind him.
At least it hits aerial opponents more consistently now.

 

[Virum]

I'm not sure if I like Charizard's new Up Smash hit box on the second hit. It used to be a decent move for punishing rolls that ended up just behind Charizard due to how quick it was. Now he's got no quick moves for hitting behind him.
At least it hits aerial opponents more consistently now.

2nd hit of USmash would never connect vs foes behind him anyway. It consistently dropped before. The move is undeniably better now if simply because it serves its intended purposes much better.

 

[RadianB]

2nd hit of USmash would never connect vs foes behind him anyway. It consistently dropped before. The move is undeniably better now if simply because it serves its intended purposes much better.

It would but only if the character was right behind Charizard touching his back. I used to do it quite often.

 

[arbustopachon]

So from what I understand his up smash has a better hitbox and the KBG on hit 2 was buffed from 105 to 107

So apparently U-smash also kills slightly earlier now. Eh, i guess i'll take it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Might be me but I feel like all the hits of Rising Cyclone tend to connect now until like really high percents past 100%.

Been getting on average kills around 50% and ends with a 76% kill.

Might be something. Dthrow > Rising Cyclone is what I've been playing around with.

You can get around it though by moving away with DI and airdodging but if you get hit it seems hard to escape.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

Is nobody still sure about what changed? Seeing no changes on the patch list for so long makes me a bit anxious. What if they all get the same treatment as poor Zelda?

 

[Steeler]

looks like usmash is the only thing they've found. even MORE tweaking on the first hit and slightly stronger knockback on the second.

i figured it would be some minor **** again. just kinda happy they kept zard's patch buff streak going of always getting something really fkn minor (aside from the throw changes)

 

[charizardbro]

So do we have any exact ideas about what did (or didn't) change about dthrow, if anything? I won't have the patch for quite some time but I just wanted to think about what I would be able to lab with dthrow later. A less horizontal angle would be huge.

I labbed dthrow>uair and it is a true combo in training mode at high percents, being a kill confirm. My question is whether it can be DIed out of (and whether this was a true combo BEFORE the patch ;P).

As a more specific note, it killed MK starting 80% (confirmed it going to 95%, might go higher) on Omega BF.
Tested it on Ike as well and it was a true combo kill confirm at 100% on Omega BF.

Not sure on the % range, or how DIable it is; it's certainly hard enough to land, leading me to believe it probably can be DIed away from. Maybe UpB is a better alternative? not sure on the frame data difference between the two moves' startups. EDIT: According to Kuragane's data repository, the first hitbox of uair is active frame 12, and Fly frame 16.

Moar Edits: Tested it with my bro on Kirby, Ike, Sheik, and was able to true combo dthrow>uair at 75% on all of them. Had my bro DI the attack away and down and airdodge and he was able to avoid the uair. Sheik seemed entirely able to avoid a followup (flew too far horizontally). Ike was trapped into an usmash followup (which did not kill at that percent). Kirby may or may not be able to do an aerial in time to stop the usmash followup.

Last edit: Looks like he simply started holding away and down with Sheik where he had only been holding away with Ike/Kirby. I suspect the other characters could avoid a followup as well with that DI at high percents.

Try to see if the upper range for DK is different than what is seen here. I couldn't buffer Uair out of jumpsquat on 3ds so I am certain the lower numbers are off by a couple percent for dthrow -> uair but the upper ones should be pretty accurate.

edit: That's without DI, of course.

 

[Ken.D]

From what i have seen of playing last night, I was able to combo out of rocksmash more consistently when hitting more towards the front side of rocksmash.

 

[Steeler]

Honestly, I don't think anything has changed on dthrow.

 

[RadianB]

I've changed my opinion about the new Up Smash hit box, it's much better. I'm so used to playing Charizard that I kinda know what move is going to hit or not so I was so surprised when I decided to test out Up Smash's new hit boxes in competitive matches, it feels like a reliable anti-air move now. Also the fact that they get locked in now is great.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Yeah, USmash now locks people in, which makes it a much better anti-air move.

Dash attack seems to have less lag, maybe? Need more time to lab.

 

[RadianB]

Yeah, USmash now locks people in, which makes it a much better anti-air move.

Dash attack seems to have less lag, maybe? Need more time to lab.

Dash Attack got less end lag in the last patch. The only change to Charizard this patch is his Up Smash. This has been confirmed by data mining.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Ah, right then.

Still, a buff is a buff. Getting a reliable anti-air option is really going to help against certain MU's.

 

[Steeler]

Apparently usmash is actually slightly weaker now on KBG? Can someone confirm?

 

[charizardbro]

Apparently usmash is actually slightly weaker now on KBG? Can someone confirm?

Pretty sure it's wrong.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-final-content-1-1-4-patch-discussion.430033/page-22