1.1.3 Patch Notes

[jsqrc]

I'll be updating this thread every two hours or so with confirmed changes. Where's Keep when you need him?

• No global changes
• Bucket nerfed. Half damage and half the knockback on team projectiles
• Hitbox / Damage values on the rest of the attacks have not been altered
• BKB and KBG values on the rest of the attacks have not been altered
• FAF and other changes are yet to be known

(my datamine and Keep2D's testing show that nothing for us has changed at all. Waiting on the pro dataminers to give us the final information)

Patch is today, December 15th, 2015 At around 2PM to 3PM PST (during or after direct)
Feel free to placebo in this thread tho and complain about how sakurai has left us without a kill throw yet again

 

[NotAsian]

Yeah no joke why does up throw not kill it puts them in the blast zone at 0 pretty much then doesn't kill at 200 with rage WTF

 

[Folie]

Hey guys I feel like fair combos into judge now. Also no kill throw wtf sakurai I am quit game
/s

Jokes aside once again we actually have someone looking through actual game files so there shouldn't be any debate on what's changed. No changes so far but they're only 50% done analyzing it so who knows what could come up

 

[Ephenilliac]

http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes-discussion.425922/page-5#post-20602929 can anyone confirm/deny?

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Its bad. Really, really bad.

Thats seriously all we get out of this patch, a ****ing dubs nerf? Its clear Sakurai has no intentions on making G&W viable.

 

[Folie]

why don't we wait for a confirmation instead of trusting someone who doesn't play g&w's word lol

 

[jsqrc]

why don't we wait for a confirmation instead of trusting someone who doesn't play g&w's word lol

Confirmed: http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes-discussion.425922/page-5#post-20603428

 

[Folie]

eh w/e, never used bucket jank in teams anyways

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Doesn't play G&W?

Oh you sweet summer child.

 

[Folie]

looked em up, couldn't find any sets. Are we talking about the same person here?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Goodnight, sweet prince.
Mr. Game & Watch flew too close to the sun. No longer is he a top/high tier pick in doubles.

 

[Kofu]

View attachment 87835

Goodnight, sweet prince.
Mr. Game & Watch flew too close to the sun. No longer is he a top/high tier pick in doubles.

You can't OHKO anymore but 30% is still quite powerful and it's still a fast and long-ranged attack. It's probably still useful, especially with the right teammate.

Lavani confirmed no landing lag changes so... I guess we're playing the same old character?

 

[Folie]

Just gonna repeat what I said in the skype group. If anything I'm kinda happy about the teams bucket jank nerf. Stuff like that, Villager, Rosa, Ness jank makes for degenerate gameplay and I feel like I'm actively losing brain cells while watching it. With it gone, people can start to look at G&W a little more as something that isn't just dumb janky gimmicks. SeanS made me believe G&W is still useful in dubs without the jank and hoopefully some of you will start to see that too, instead of just sitting around whining about it.

Honestly in general, stop whining lol. Unless you're placing 13th at EVO or something like that chances are the character isn't holding you back, rather you're holding yourself back. If you don't like what we have, don't play the damn character.

 

[SeanS]

While I'm glad that I'm inspiring you, this is not really an excuse for what occurred.

This is a global nerf to all bucket related strategies, nay, many proven doubles strategies, and was absolutely not necessary to solve the Sheik scenario. That situation could have been easily solved, as I've said a hundred times before, by reducing the damage output on Vanish and buffing its knockback growth to preserve its ability to kill; it would then only fill one bucket.

What we have now is a total reduction of any kind of genuine doubles meta. Ness / Lucas can't recover, Villager can't pocket, G&W can't bucket, etc. like they could before. Most of these strategies were not really broken and encouraged serious teamwork with suboptimal character choices that both players were not likely to be familiar with.

And with this comes an implicit belief on Sakurai's behalf that there is nothing wrong with Sheik and G&W needs to keep getting nerfed because his co-worker's up smash gave him a mental boo-boo.

It's objectively a very bad development for Smash 4, and we need to be firm on the record regarding this because Reddit will dictate history otherwise.

 

[steuben]

i can't really tell my own salt from actual logical disagreement with the nerf on this matter, but i know for certain that whatever the case may be in terms of bucket doubles strategies being OP/jank/blahblahblah, HALVING the original damage output of the bucketed moves was taking it way too far.

doubling the damage is too much? okay, why not just deal the same amount of damage that the bucketed moves would deal by themselves? half damage is virtually useless.

my problem is as follows: if i'm playing against a team that has bucketable projectiles (BP) and my teammate also has BP, i am now forced to actively AVOID bucketing my teammates attacks. by filling even one bar with a teammate's BP, i have effectively diluted a potential OHKO or high KB attack into something far less rewarding, and i have wasted the effort it took to get those first two bars filled off my opponents, which i may have taken great risk to do.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

My entire state is literally rejoicing at this nerf because me and a luigi player have managed top 3 (never 1st) a few times.

I don't understand why everyone wants the doubles meta to be two separate 1v1s occurring at the same time. Like was mentioned earlier, it got nerfed way too hard, and to choose to nerf bucket over vanish is literal insanity.

I don't mean to be that guy, but at this point I don't find it pessimistic but realistic to say that our character just isn't ever going to be given what he needs, and no matter who you are this guy just doesn't have the tools to go toe-to-toe with a lot of popular character matchups.

 

[Folie]

After talking to some people and thinking about I've kinda realized I'm wrong about whether or not the bucket change was a good change. The sensible solution would've just been to change Sheik's Up B, but at this point it's obvious to everyone that they're not really interested in making sensible balance choices but would rather just band-aid fix ****.

At the same time, I still really think we need to ditch this victim complex. I don't know why reddit is to blame, if Nintendo was actually listening to them, a lot more things would be changing. We're not constant victims of poor balance decisions, as of now we've only had 2 considerable nerfs (maybe 3, there's not really any solid evidence to use to see if the first hit uair change was actually a thing or not), it's not like we're the only character in pretty obvious need of some fixing only to receive the occasional nonsensical nerf or practically irrelevant buff, a lot of the cast is actually like that. If there was any sense of logic in whoever is in charge of balancing, **** like Sheik in general/Zelda in general would've been attended to by now. It's not gonna happen and it's time to come to terms with that. It could be better, but realistically, it won't ever get better.

Yeah, our character isn't ever going to be solo mainable, some popular picks destroy him too hard for that, but he's still, as demonstrated by Songun, Regi, SeanS, viable in some aspects at higher levels. If the bucket change is really causing anyone to drop him, I really don't understand why the hell they were dedicated to the character in the first place (unless they only played him for doubles). We need more good representation for our character because atm our best players lack publicity because they live in different countries and/or they can't travel, so more people will actually look at the character as something deeper than just invincible usmash, bucket stuff, and 9s and maybe even consider playing him and pushing him farther. Sitting around complaining and only talking about the usmash, bucket stuff, 9s part of our character doesn't do that, it just makes us look like scrubs and chases people away. If you don't want to push yourself to be better with G&W and just want to complain, why are you playing him?

Personally I'm done complaining and I am focusing on personal improvement. I want at least my region to take the character seriously.

 

[TimG57867]

I think the problem might lie in the fact Japanese players seem to hold Mr. Game and Watch in higher regard than the West generally does. I mean look at Abadango's 1.1.2 tier list:

http://abadango.com/ssb4-tier-list-ver-1-1-2/

I mean he has Mr. Game and Watch above ,, and ! If this opinion is common amongst competitive players over there, G Dubs lack of buffs wouldn't surprise me. This may or may not be the case, but it's very likely cause if you notice, barring , and who all got buffed considerably prior to his list, most characters on this list have benefited very little if at all from the updates. And if this is the case, than ouch. The devs should really look closer at Western competitive scenes beyond mass outcry like pre-patch .

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I've literally used Bucket Jank in doubles bracket at only one tournament ever to earn money, otherwise I've always just gone hard with G&W & a synergistic teammate. I've been making a lot of doubles $$$ with G&W & Sonic these last few months. This nerf doesn't actually bother me in practice, it's just a principle thing.

I'm still going to go beast in doubles, though. G&W is still on the upper half of the cast in Doubles, and I'll leave it to you guys to figure out why.

 

[Z1GMA]

They should make his up+b less laggy, so that he can use it sort of like Sonic's up+b.
(Up+b > Uair, etc.)

*edit:
Also, to make Bucket more fun, and usable in more MUs.
(And to buff G&W slightly)
<!> It should be able to absorb Shields <!>

If you use bucket near someone's shield, it'll suck in 50% of the shield, and the opponent would also suffer some sort of Shield Stun, so that you're not too easy to punish after successfully slurping their shield.
It would fill up one bar in your bucket, and a full bucket would be a bit stronger than your SP Fsmash.