1.06 Patch Thread - Koopalings (Please read OP before posting)

[Glicnak]

Alright! The patch is out. Ill keep a log of the changes. By now most of the theories have been tested so if you are going to submit anything, please provide a video or a method that can be replicated to support your claim. Thanks and happy smashing!

Confirmed:
-Corrected hitboxes on Fsmash (can still miss if the character is walking into you, but hitbox extends between bjr and the drills now)
-Dair is safer on shield now

Suspected Changes:

Debunked (A.K.A. not true):
-MK walks slightly faster
-5 pixels extra grab range
-Slightly faster cannonball start up
-Cannonball travels further uncharged or. uncharged
-Cannonball arc has changed
-Less aerial lag after cannonball (but same landing lag)
-More knockback from sideB (may sideB to upB sooner)
-More fair knockback
-Slightly more endlag on FsmashFsmash
-Jab combo doesn't whiff

Please feel free to test these out yourselves so we can build a definite log of the changes


**Earlier post**
1.06 is going to contain character balancing. With this in mind, what parts of BJr do you think could or should be balanced (either buffed or, despite not being top tier, nerfed). Try and be objective and keep fairness in mind, this is about what should happen, not what we want to happen or how to buff bjr so that hes the best character ever.

Inb4 nerf greninja

 

[SoundChow]

I know it's improved with customs, but I'd really like it if bowser jr.'s standard cannonball charged faster, traveled further, or had less startup. They're pretty useful when launched from a short-hop because the animation ends exactly when bowser jr. lands, though it's hard to apply pressure with them because of their slow speed and predictable trajectory. I'd also like it if they gave more kill power to bowser jr.'s tilts and made canceling his first two jabs into other moves actually reliable. I don't expect the balance team to give him any nerfs.

 

[Conn1496]

Nerf Greninj-uhh... Joking... Joking...

Naw, I think more than anything, I'd just like to see some sort of canonball buff. I'm happy with the range on it, just the power and speed doesn't seem worth it. Maybe a smash power improvement would be good for canon. Less endlag on jab would be nice, too, but I dunno, jab isn't all too important to Koops' game anyway, it's all about the tilts.

Unrealistically, I think it'd be good for U-tilt and U-air to have a little more hitstun, and side-B to have set max knockback to make a couple of kill combos/setups easier, but I don't think these'll happen at all. Maybe a throw improvement? Dunno what, but yeah, a throw improvement would be nice since his throws are a little mediocre, but I don't think it'll happen either since they serve their purpose fine. Eeeh... I don't think much will change for Koops.

Realistically? I just think the Mechakoopa will be fixed to be a guaranteed hit instead of "maybe" on flip-up, that's it (I'm lookin' at you, JIGGLYPUFF!!).

[Edit]: Actually, as mentioned in another thread, nerfs can be positive to an extent, too - so I'd honestly like to see U-air get a small knockback nerf. Make it better for combos at higher %s. Dunno though, U-air does kill from side-B at 150%, which is pretty useful considering that that's wayyy past side-B > up-B KO wombo %.

 

[SoundChow]

Nerf Greninj-uhh... Joking... Joking...

Naw, I think more than anything, I'd just like to see some sort of canonball buff. I'm happy with the range on it, just the power and speed doesn't seem worth it. Maybe a smash power improvement would be good for canon. Less endlag on jab would be nice, too, but I dunno, jab isn't all too important to Koops' game anyway, it's all about the tilts.

Unrealistically, I think it'd be good for U-tilt and U-air to have a little more hitstun, and side-B to have set max knockback to make a couple of kill combos/setups easier, but I don't think these'll happen at all. Maybe a throw improvement? Dunno what, but yeah, a throw improvement would be nice since his throws are a little mediocre, but I don't think it'll happen either since they serve their purpose fine. Eeeh... I don't think much will change for Koops.

Realistically? I just think the Mechakoopa will be fixed to be a guaranteed hit instead of "maybe" on flip-up, that's it (I'm lookin' at you, JIGGLYPUFF!!).

[Edit]: Actually, as mentioned in another thread, nerfs can be positive to an extent, too - so I'd honestly like to see U-air get a small knockback nerf. Make it better for combos at higher %s. Dunno though, U-air does kill from side-B at 150%, which is pretty useful considering that that's wayyy past side-B > up-B KO wombo %.

They should really fix the second hit of the mechakoopa. It's annoying when you're setting up for a u-air follow-up, but the explosion just avoids them.

 

[Conn1496]

They should really fix the second hit of the mechakoopa. It's annoying when you're setting up for a u-air follow-up, but the explosion just avoids them.

IMO, it should be a straight up 2-hit combo guaranteed. Like an attack throw from the flip-up. We can dream. lol

 

[pikazz]

I hope they fix the ending lag on second jab, stronger BAir, a faster grab, throws thats either a good follow up or killer throws.
SideSmash have proper hitboxes so it doesnt whiff that much. SideSmash multihit do more shield damage and the finisher of it would do more.

faster start up and endlag on B, faster endlag on DownB. sideB having bigger shield stun, faster endland on SideB spin

A tech that lets you either cancel the SideB without having to jump like you can grab durning it (this will probely never be added but still xD)

the UpB hammer should do just a little harder.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

The most important thing would be either to extend Jr's grab range, or make it faster. His pivot grab is good, but I wish his normal and dash grabs were better.
It SEVERELY hampers Jr's game against shield happy enemies.

It would be nice if you could always retrieve your up B after receiving ANY knockback to prevent gimps from **** like Pit's arrows, anything from Sheik, and Fox's nair...

Also, follow ups from throws would be cool. Ideally the Uthrow or Dthrow. So... I guess reduced knockback on those two?

 

[krazyzyko]

I'd like the Cannon ball to be chargeable like Samus' special B.
And his up B startup to be faster so it could be a viable OoS option.
His jab combo being laggy isn't that big of a deal because his first jab can be canceled and if you want to do a relatively safer combo then jab > lick.

 

[Vult Redux]

The most important thing would be either to extend Jr's grab range, or make it faster. His pivot grab is good, but I wish his normal and dash grabs were better.
It SEVERELY hampers Jr's game against shield happy enemies.

this x1000. seriously, what the HECK is Jr. supposed to do against shields other than cry??? if we had a more quicker and/or longer grab, Jr. could really threaten opponents' shields. even a mild buff here could be game-changing for him, I think.

It would also be nice if we got more reward from grabs too. Bthrow has some kill power, but the other throws are really bleh all-around: little damage, little kill potential, little follow-up potential...

 

[Glicnak]

Gotta agree with the grabbing comments. Even if we still can't follow up on a grab, it'd be nice to not have to hop around the opponent until they unshield because our grab is so slow and short ranged that even a perfect read can be punished by most characters jabs.

 

[The_Altrox]

Considering how they nerfed Little Mac, a character that Sakurai said was on the lower end of the spectrum BEFORE the last balance patch, and considering how Zelda got nerfed in general since Brawl, I wouldn't be surprised if Jr. got nerfed even further.

But what I'd like:

- Faster, less awkward cannonball and charge
- Faster, safer grab
- Safer jab (I like using jab, but it can be depressing)
- A kart that can endure weaker projectiles
- Air moves that make landing safer
- A forward Smash that isn't so awkward.

Any combination of those would be sweet.

 

[Zodiacx10]

this x1000. seriously, what the HECK is Jr. supposed to do against shields other than cry??? if we had a more quicker and/or longer grab, Jr. could really threaten opponents' shields. even a mild buff here could be game-changing for him, I think.

It would also be nice if we got more reward from grabs too. Bthrow has some kill power, but the other throws are really bleh all-around: little damage, little kill potential, little follow-up potential...

I don't play bowser Jr. a lot...but is his dash grab worse than Little Mac's in terms of range and speed? cuz if it is then ya...they need to buff that

 

[Glicnak]

I don't play bowser Jr. a lot...but his dash grab worse than Little Mac's in terms of range and speed? cuz if it is then ya...they need to buff that

His dash grab / grab in general is just wayy too slow to deserve the range it has

 

[Glicnak]

I don't play bowser Jr. a lot...but is his dash grab worse than Little Mac's in terms of range and speed? cuz if it is then ya...they need to buff that

To answer your question, MUCH worse in speed, and a little better in range but nowhere near enough to merit the slowness. It's the exact same speed as link's grab, but (probably less than) half the range

 

[Katakiri]

Here's to you guys getting the buffs you need. If anyone deserves them, it's Bowser Jr. I've enjoyed playing around with him since the Japanese 3DS release but couldn't overcome his weaknesses. A really fun character gimped for silly reasons. Even a functional jab would be a huge improvement.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Here's to you guys getting the buffs you need. If anyone deserves them, it's Bowser Jr. I've enjoyed playing around with him since the Japanese 3DS release but couldn't overcome his weaknesses. A really fun character gimped for silly reasons. Even a functional jab would be a huge improvement.

Jab is relatively fine... we can kill with the finisher lol and it's still good for its range. But there's always room for improvement...
But yeah there are plenty of glaring weaknesses, some of which you wouldn't expect him to have... the grab and the gimping on his up B come to mind as the worst offenders....

I think Meta Knight needs updating too btw... at least to match his hitboxes with his animations.... cuz I distinctly remember what looked like phantom hits every time I played him but turned out to be his short dagger...

 

[Bobert]

I'll switch him from my secondary to my main in a heartbeat if they just fix his recovery and make his grab faster. A cannonball buff would be nice too but I can live without it.

 

[pikazz]

a buff I just got in mind would bowser Jr make even better.

the buff would be a better Super Armour on his SideB, since has a slighty weak super armour but its weak and is on weird hurtboxes (only on the kart lower part).
if it was buff so it can stand against better attacks and is also on Jr himself, he would have a better approach

 

[Braydon]

Honestly I don't think he needs that big a buff, I agree on the grab, range or speed would help his grab a lot, but he doesn't need to combo from it, it already hit's quite a lot on throw.

I really don't understand what all this crap about his jab being bad is, I mean first of all, it is the single most damaging jab combo, and it can kill, it actually hits more than his Fsmash when uncharged, it's quite easy to hit for an attack that can deal 20%.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

But what I'd like:

- Faster, less awkward cannonball and charge
- Faster, safer grab
- Safer jab (I like using jab, but it can be depressing)
- A kart that can endure weaker projectiles
- Air moves that make landing safer
- A forward Smash that isn't so awkward.

Any combination of those would be sweet.

Pretty much all of this. With emphasis on cannonball, grab, jab, and Forward Smash buffs.

Forward Smash being the most important one to me because that move legitimately feels BROKEN, and for the opposite reasons in contrast to being OP. It feels extremely clunky to use with the absurdly depressing hitboxes it has, and it absolutely needs to be fixed.

Cannonball has way too much startup lag and endlag to justify almost any reward that it gives. This goes for all variants of the move.

Buffs to jab's ability to link/jab's speed would be nice.

The fact that Bowser Jr's grab and dashgrab have almost roughly the same startup lag is depressing. Frame 13/14 for both. It definitely needs a startup lag reduction somewhere.

 

[Glicnak]

If we're lucky, we're going to get MAYBE a buff to one thing, and maybe not even to a helpful degree

 

[CoonTail]

I'd personally just like to see them correct Bowser Jr's issue with getting hit out of Up-B.

The random fall animation is rather absurd and there needs to be an outright changes to him being put into freefall when smacked out of his Up-B. It's a downside that in a game like this is completely unnecessary.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

I'd personally just like to see them correct Bowser Jr's issue with getting hit out of Up-B.

The random fall animation is rather absurd and there needs to be an outright changes to him being put into freefall when smacked out of his Up-B. It's a downside that in a game like this is completely unnecessary.

I was with you until you mentioned free fall...
Up B is one of his best kill moves.... And you should be able to nail someone with a hammer swing while descending and punish them for being so close to you...
Free fall is not the answer. We just need to avoid stupid gimps by being able to recover the up B after receiving any knockback at all...

 

[CoonTail]

I was with you until you mentioned free fall...
Up B is one of his best kill moves.... And you should be able to nail someone with a hammer swing while descending and punish them for being so close to you...
Free fall is not the answer. We just need to avoid stupid gimps by being able to recover the up B after receiving any knockback at all...

Sorry Duck let me correct myself.

My gripe with Bowser Jr. is that he is PUT INTO FREEFALL because he was struck by a move after committing to using Up-B.

If we were to get a patch I would like to NOT be put into freefall/tumble animation for some unlisted amount of time for being sllightly grazed after pressing Up-B.

We have the same sentiment here, but my wording was poor :/

 

[Glicnak]

I actually have less gripes with the upB than most people. It sucks to be gimped so easily, but i look at it as "here's one of the best upB moves in the game, but it has a terrible downside"

Whereas I then look at his grab and its like "here's a mediocre grab... lets make it take 13 frames."
I look at his jab, "heres a mediocre jab, lets make it DI'able"

That being said, not having to worry about super easy gimps from any shiek who can aim a needle would be swell.

Edit: In case I was unclear, what I mean is that at least the upB has some really strong points. A few of bjr's moves have bad specs while still being subpar moves, and that is what I think needs to be fixed.

 

[TheRetroBitGamer]

My wish list:

-Make the cannon ball a more viable projectile! I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned much. The power is nowhere near as rewarding as it should be. Fully charged, it doesn't even kill at 80% sometimes. Also, the end lag is ridiculous.

-Allow the cart to plow through weak projectiles. Of the 1,000+ battles with the Koopalings, there's only been 3 instances where his cart's "super armor" has protected me . Mega Man's pea shooter is able to stop the cart. Let that sink in...

-Grab isn't that bad in terms of range, speed, and lag. I usually perfect pivot grabs which makes up for those 3 shortcomings. What's awful is its power. Make follow ups more easy maybe.

-F-smash DI is unacceptable.

I don't think this is too much to ask really. Also, I don't see what people are talking about the Koopalings having awful jabs. Sure they're DI'able, but not so much from low to mid percentages. Just about any other jab is DI'able at high percentages. It's fine the way it is. A jab buff would be a nice extra though.

 

[guedes the brawler]

side-b really should have had armor on it's entirety, unless you are using a projectile that has a forced angle in midair (pk fire and needle shot) it's super easy to hit jr out of car, even at max speed (JC side-b3) stuff like megaman's buster or falco's blaster kncok you out. More aggravating is the ZSS's paralyzer can do that to us.

Our Grab definitively needs to be faster. we don't get ANY sort of combo from any grabs. never. we should have something to make up for that; they do give us time to send mechakoopas but we are not always o the best place, (or matchup... ) to do it.

neutral B needs to stop sucking. NB2 needs to have faster start-up too.

Up-b should give you the car back from any kind of hit you suffer, including, say, 's blaster or / Flames.

F-smahs needs to get fixed. hard enough to land the move as it is.

Down smash needs way more shield damage and pushback if they insist on making it bad to punish even hard read rolls.

Up smash should ge tthe / treatment of sideway hitboxes...

Nair could come a bit faster. Dair could have less lag, we should not have so much trouble landing.

Jab needs to be fixed.

 

[Glicnak]

side-b really should have had armor on it's entirety, unless you are using a projectile that has a forced angle in midair (pk fire and needle shot) it's super easy to hit jr out of car, even at max speed (JC side-b3) stuff like megaman's buster or falco's blaster kncok you out. More aggravating is the ZSS's paralyzer can do that to us.

Our Grab definitively needs to be faster. we don't get ANY sort of combo from any grabs. never. we should have something to make up for that; they do give us time to send mechakoopas but we are not always o the best place, (or matchup... ) to do it.

neutral B needs to stop sucking. NB2 needs to have faster start-up too.

Up-b should give you the car back from any kind of hit you suffer, including, say, 's blaster or / Flames.

F-smahs needs to get fixed. hard enough to land the move as it is.

Down smash needs way more shield damage and pushback if they insist on making it bad to punish even hard read rolls.

Up smash should ge tthe / treatment of sideway hitboxes...

Nair could come a bit faster. Dair could have less lag, we should not have so much trouble landing.

Jab needs to be fixed.

If someone reacted by shooting a blaster at you, it means they also had time to shield, which is just as bad for sideB cuz you have no option against a shield.

Flames shouldn't be knocking you away from the ledge. You can recover low against bowser/charizard, and their flames will not stop you if you hug the side. Fsmash isn't broken, its just got a spaced out hitbox, although DI'ing out of it is stupid and I agree should change.

Dsmash is a good option to punish rolls.... it comes out quite fast and hits both sides simultaneously..

Usmash is godly, it already has more sideway hitboxes than a lot of Usmashes and it kills really well.

Nair is a bit slow but it has way more range than most nairs. Dair is a great move, its just punishable, which is fine.

You can't just make bjr this fast charater with no ending lag. That's like saying what if we gave lil'mac better recovery and disjointed hitboxes. It'd be way too OP.

 

[W.A.C.]

Biggest change I want is for his cannon ball to get buffed. As of right now, it's one of his worst moves and the horrendous startup and end lag from the move can make it difficult to play him well defensively. That's a huge part of why I haven't been using him as much lately. I also know the chance of Nintendo buffing his custom moves are slim, but his neutral special 2 is a terrible move and the much shorter jump from side special 2 has such a negative impact on his combo game that I stopped using it which sucks because I prefer its spinout. All of his side specials should have the same jump height. Otherwise, it cripples the viability of that custom move.

 

[FlabbyOrb]

Okay, so after doing some testing, bowser jr didn't receive any damage buffs but I do believe his neutralB cannon has a faster start up and flies faster uncharged, end lag also seems reduced

 

[pikazz]

the only things I noticed on the buff side is:

- slightly stronger Fair knockback, meaning it kills earlier offstage
- corrected hitboxes on Side Smash (it seems much easier to hit)
- slightly faster start up on Canonball
- MK travels slightly faster
- 5 pixels extra grab range (it isnt as short as before, but still short compare to others)

no other buff or nerf what I have seen. I really wish for a better super armor on SideB and better throws D:

 

[Glicnak]

Alright, ill start updating the thread. Until we get frame data or videos though Im not gonna call any of this confirmed yet, just out of precaution haha

 

[The_Altrox]

NM. Saddened

 

[W.A.C.]

Did Bowser Jr. get any buffs at all? If not, at least his worst matchups are now nowhere near as bad. Though considering how one of my mains is Diddy, you could all probably imagine how I feel about this update. :/

 

[Glicnak]

Did Bowser Jr. get any buffs at all? If not, at least his worst matchups are now nowhere near as bad. Though considering how one of my mains is Diddy, you could all probably imagine how I feel about this update. :/

As much as he got nerfed, is diddy still viable? Cuz if he is, now diddy players can actually get a chance to better explore the character and shake off the hoohah reputation

 

[The_Altrox]

I imagined a hoo-hah with less knockback can be good for comboing at the very least.

 

[Glicnak]

I imagined a hoo-hah with less knockback can be good for comboing at the very least.

Reportedly theres more lag on the upair and downthrow has more knockback, both of these meaning no more guaranteed upair strings

 

[The_Altrox]

At the risk of going off topic in a Bowser Junior thread, I have no problem with Diddy being the best. Or top ten. I would just hate to see good characters go bad. While I'm all in favor of appropriate nerfs, I was hoping this patch would be more about making the lower end of the cast better while getting rid of bugs and stupidity like the auto-locking jabs (looking at you, Fox).

 

[Mr Moosebones]

@ Glicnak I did some labbing. Here are my findings so far.

Confirmed
-Corrected hitboxes on Fsmash

Deconfirmed
-Slightly more endlag on Fsmash
-MK walks slightly faster
-Slightly faster cannonball start up
-Cannonball travels further uncharged
-Less aerial lag after cannonball (but same landing lag)
-More knockback from sideB (may sideB to upB sooner)
-More kb on fair

This is all 100% correct. Tested using 2 3DSes side by side; one patched, one not patched.

 

[Glicnak]

@ Glicnak I did some labbing. Here are my findings so far.

Confirmed
-Corrected hitboxes on Fsmash

Deconfirmed
-MK walks slightly faster
-Slightly faster cannonball start up
-Cannonball travels further uncharged
-Less aerial lag after cannonball (but same landing lag)
-More knockback from sideB (may sideB to upB sooner)
-More kb on fair

This is all 100% correct. Tested using 2 3DSes side by side; one patched, one not patched.

Thanks man!