1.0.4 patch discussion

[HeavyLobster]

With how DI is in its current state, it gives us a practically guaranteed follow-up with dthrow from 0-kill % on basically most characters.

It lessens the dthrow nerf, that's for sure.

On the other hand, I'm scared about how much of a combo fodder TripleD potentially becomes.

Mario/Doc/Ness dthrow setups becoming much more dangerous comes to mind.

Is the dthrow nerf really a nerf without vectoring? I'm starting to think it might actually work in Dedede's favor by giving him more and better options out of Dthrow, including kill options, though not being able to get people offstage as easily does hurt.

 

[Lavani]

They might not be able to VI up to escape, but if they can DI away to escape like with Diddy's and Palutena's dthrow>uair we still ultimately have a less reliable throw at higher percents.

 

[Jabejazz]

DI doesn't seem to be extremely potent; didn't have the chance to play much, but I'm pretty sure we have more free setups out of DThrow now that VI is gone.

That being said, the trade-off is that we get comboed much harder; overall we lose much more than we win. It's a really good thing Dedede can afford using jumps to get out of some strings.

 

[DrewMoney]

Has anyone else been losing more due to the update?

 

[Karthage]

Has anyone else been losing more due to the update?

I have a lot of follow up muscle memory I need to fight against.

Dthrow was my most used move, and they completely changed how to follow it up. It completely changes the offensive flow of DDD and it feels like I'm playing a different character.

If this is how balance patches are going to be handled with the game, I'm going to have to drop it.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Haven't played the game much recently, but just a couple things I noticed:

Uair spike still exists, and should in theory be easier to land with the more vertical dthrow angle. I think this ultimately makes dthrow -> offstage spike more difficult, but I haven't actually tested this much outside of confirming what follow ups we get out of dthrow.

Fair nerf doesn't seem to affect him too much, but I'm hoping we'll get less end lag on it in a future patch.

Do we know how the patch affects his custom moves not mentioned in the first post?

 

[dean.]

with user dantarion having kindly dumped the game source and compared the differences between 1.0.3 and 1.0.4, we can verify any changes that have been made to dedede. most of it is what we already know.

• fair damage down from 13% to 12%
• dthrow angle has changed from 70° to 80° and base knockback has gone up from 60 to 82
• whole bunch of unknown code deleted. doesn't seem related to any hitboxes or anything. maybe just housecleaning on the programmer's part?
• moves "304" and "306" have had a few properties altered. not sure what moves these are... inhale spit out maybe? too complicated for me lol

source: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore/index.php?char=dedede&mode=diff104

there isn't anything about custom moves in there, and it seems like gordo properties are stored in a different location.

in other news: with the above source we can now collect frame data! might get around to that some day.

 

[Jabejazz]

We have some of that compiled already.

BEGIN dedede
**********
Jab1
Hits on frame: 10.0
Hitboxes end: 12.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 4.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 10
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 200.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 70

Jab2
Hits on frame: 11.0
Hitboxes end: 13.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 4.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 10
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 200.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 115

unknown substate 0x54
Hits on frame: 1.0
Hitboxes end: 2.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 1.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 20

unknown substate 0x55
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 7.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 3.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 150
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 240.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 70

Dash Attack
Hits on frame: 26.0
Hitboxes end: 36.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 16.0
Extra Shield Damage: 3
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 640.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

F-tilt (normal)
Hits on frame: 12.0
Hitboxes end: 24.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 3.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 190
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 90.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 50

U-tilt
Hits on frame: 9.0
Hitboxes end: 16.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 12.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 80
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 600.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 96

D-tilt
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 14.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 10.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 75
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 600.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 45

F-smash release (normal)
Hits on frame: 42.0
Hitboxes end: 50.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 24.0
Extra Shield Damage: 4
Max Hitbox BKB: 93
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 720.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

U-smash release
Hits on frame: 17.0
Hitboxes end: 25.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 14.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 95
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 560.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 80

D-smash release
Hits on frame: 14.0
Hitboxes end: 23.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 13.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 80
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 780.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 30

Nair
Hits on frame: 7.0
Hitboxes end: 30.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 12.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 95
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 480.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 60

Fair
Hits on frame: 13.0
Hitboxes end: 16.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 12.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 90
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 180.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

Bair
Hits on frame: 17.0
Hitboxes end: 20.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 16.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 88
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 480.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

Uair
Hits on frame: 10.0
Hitboxes end: 14.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 150
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 250.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 70

Dair
Hits on frame: 22.0
Hitboxes end: 24.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 15.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 90
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 300.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 270

Pummel
Hits on frame: 4.0
Hitboxes end: 5.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 3.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

F-throw
Hits on frame: 12.0
Hitboxes end: 14.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 80
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 45

B-throw
Hits on frame: 16.0
Hitboxes end: 19.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 9.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 79
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 60

U-throw
Hits on frame: 16.0
Hitboxes end: 19.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 72
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 90

D-throw
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 26.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 82
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 80





unknown substate 0x20e
Hits on frame: 17.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

unknown substate 0x210
Hits on frame: 17.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

unknown substate 0x212
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

unknown substate 0x213
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 3.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 300.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 70

unknown substate 0x214
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

unknown substate 0x21a
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 8.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 0
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

unknown substate 0x21b
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 8.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 0
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

unknown substate 0x21c
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 8.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 0
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

unknown substate 0x21e
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 4.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

unknown substate 0x21f
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 4.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

unknown substate 0x220
Hits on frame: 1.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 4.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

unknown substate 0x232
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 10.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 0
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

unknown substate 0x233
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 10.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 0
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

unknown substate 0x234
Hits on frame: 1.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 12.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 0
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

Nothing that particularly stands out. Jab got buffed 2 frames from Brawl.

We can start compiling data and make a proper guide for our King soon.

 

[Lavani]

Some brief testing vs ZSS in training: dthrow>bair is still a true combo from 0-65% or so. Haven't gotten it to combo at any percents where a midair jump is necessary, but I haven't tried for very long either.

 

[dean.]

Wii U version isn't released in Australia yet but from looking at videos it seems the 1.0.4 changes haven't been applied to the Wii U version yet? Dthrow is as it was in 1.0.3 and fair does 13%?

 

[Lavani]

Wii U version isn't released in Australia yet but from looking at videos it seems the 1.0.4 changes haven't been applied to the Wii U version yet? Dthrow is as it was in 1.0.3 and fair does 13%?

My best guess from footage and reports is that Wii U's version is a precursor to 1.0.4. There are changes like Luma's respawn time and the launch angle on Ike's dtilt, but Ike's dtilt doesn't have the end lag reduction, and there are various other characters that don't have their 1.0.4 changes - like Dedede.

 

[Lavani]

So I finally got around to playing and noticed a couple things.

First off, we did get one change nobody mentioned so far; air dodge and weak hit nair used to do this thing where Gordos would stick to your underside until the animations ended, then they'd fall off harmlessly. Now if Dedede contacts a reflected Gordo with these moves, he cancels them completely to grab and throw the Gordo. Not entirely sure what to make of this yet, but I've had several situations now where I've run up behind my Gordo and airdodged, then immediately grabbed and slammed it back into my opponent's face after they tried to reflect it, so offensive Gordo use might be more effective? I'm not sure how much I like being forced out of intangible actions to grab and throw something, but it hasn't screwed me over yet.
EDIT: Turns out I was drastically underestimating Dedede's gordo grab range, but nair and airdodge do in fact interact with Gordos properly now!

It does seem possible to DI out of our new dthrow combos. Among other instances, I had a Sonic fly too far up and away from me for followup at 50some%.

 

[Jabejazz]

We seem have to mixed results; my fair does 12% damage, and DThrow setups are actually extremely potent; DI seems extremely ineffective in this game (I believe testing showed you would survive anything between 3 to 7% longer depending on character weight).

I haven't done a lot of testing, but DThrow > UAir on Peach at 50% worked with up and away DI.

EDIT : I tested both on 3DS and Wii U, and the DThrow trajectories are the same.

EDIT 2 : Played a few online matches, and I couldn't follow up after a DThrow on a Link at ~70%.
I was unable to reproduce the same in Training, DThrow -> UAir works on him well above 85%.
I assume rage was a factor, can't remember how damaged I was in that game, but it couldn't have been more than 150%.

Regardless, as far as TripleD is concerned, the Wii U version is effectively 1.0.4.

 

[dean.]

OK, I've heard that there's a 1.0.1 patch for the WiiU that applies all the changes from 1.0.4, can you guys confirm this? I was looking at a Vex vs. Dapuffster video on ClashTournaments but it's possible that was on an unpatched WiiU.

Will add @ Lavani 's Gordo changes to the OP when I get home from work.

 

[Jabejazz]

Yes, my Wii U version is 1.0.1, I downloaded the update the first time I booted the game.

 

[Shyningfade]

I don't know of if this is too much to ask, but if inhale didn't have such ridiculous recovery after eating projectiles it'd make him an incredible character.

Projectile spam is hard enough with his slow speed, but not having many options to get in makes it way too frustrating to compete.

 

[Trioxin]

I've been really struggling to decide if the dthrow change is really a nerf or not. While it allows for far more aerial options at low percentages, you lose almost all utility at higher percentages. Having someone fly just out of range of an uair is frustrating.

I'm not overly concerned about the DeDeDecide change, as I've rarely used that option regardless. It would normally backfire on me.

I am not happy that they decided to make the gordos even easier to knock back, considering a light breeze could shut us down. However, a quick jab to reflect it back at them still works wonders, so maybe this can benefit us if more people assume it's super easy to counter gordos.

I have a 90% win rate with him online, so I still feel he's pretty solid mid tier at the very lowest. I lose to most top tier characters, but feel like I'm on a relatively even playing field with the rest of the cast. As Shyningfade said, DeDeDe really has a hard time with projectiles. If they were to give him a bit of a buff in that department, I would be thrilled.

Honestly, I'd just be happy if they either sped up his bair and dair, or just flat out gave him his Brawl bair. I also think either giving down-b super armor, or just flat out replacing it would be great too. I never use it, at any point. Having seemingly useless moves on characters is truly a waste. He has a lot of really nice tools at his disposal, but a few basic tweaks could put him in a really nice spot overall.

 

[dean.]

Following changes have been noted to Gordo hitboxes.

I'm adding the following to the OP:

Dedede
GORDO THROW

REFLECT THRESHOLD : 3% ⇒ 2%
(14%) HITBOX SIZE : 3.5 ⇒ 3.1
(12.5%) HITBOX SIZE : 3.3 ⇒ 2.9
(11%) HITBOX SIZE : 3.1 ⇒ 2.6
(9%) HITBOX SIZE : 2.8 ⇒ 2.4
BUGFIX : Fixed a bug where air dodging or using nair would cause odd behaviour in hit Gordos​

Possibly custom changes? 11% hitbox size reduced 3.5 ⇒ 3.1, 6% hitbox size reduced 3.5 ⇒ 3.1

11% Gordo is Topspin Gordo and 6% Gordo is Bouncing Gordo.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

I can say that I rarely use Fair anymore. Since its much easier to get Uairs after the new Dthrow. Is this a bad thing? I wouldn't think so, since having opponents on top of me gives me better chances for juggling. While there was not a lot more to follow after a Fair.
Fair is still ok for some edgeguards. But right now, Uair is love. And of course, Nair is still awesome for early percents, Bair is ok for certain situations and Dair is still a lame spike.

 

[Jabejazz]

Happens that the move isn't as stale as it used to be when I edgeguard, since it isn't as good out of DThrows, and it still is the goto move, along with bair for offstage edgeguarding, so yes, I still use it fairly often.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

Well, gotta admit when it comes to edgeguarding, Fair gets the best use. Just saying that these days Uair almost completely replaced Fair as the Dthrow follow up. Or maybe its just me and I like the juggling.

 

[Oblivion129]

On the Wii U version I had my Gordo stuck under me for the whole match. Losing a stock didn't fix it. I have no idea how it ended up like that, though. Has it happened to anybody else? I assumed it was fixed.

 

[Trioxin]

Well, gotta admit when it comes to edgeguarding, Fair gets the best use. Just saying that these days Uair almost completely replaced Fair as the Dthrow follow up. Or maybe its just me and I like the juggling.

I still find fair to be very useful to throw out from time to time, just to keep things from staling. But uair is fantastic for certain.

Fair will still get plenty of use (or should.) Definitely chase people off the edge.

 

[greatbernard]

This is a nerf on a character who doesn't need one.

 

[Powda]

Well, gotta admit when it comes to edgeguarding, Fair gets the best use. Just saying that these days Uair almost completely replaced Fair as the Dthrow follow up. Or maybe its just me and I like the juggling.

I chain grab every single match, every last one. The only characters I have found you can't are sheik and greninja at any %, other than that every ddd should be chaining. I've done it so much my hands do it without even needing to focus on the inputs. I mix it up with dthrow/fair/nair but for the most part I chain grab then at higher percentage I uair into utilt.

 

[Trioxin]

This is a nerf on a character who doesn't need one.

I completely agree. If anything, he could use a buff in certain areas. I was flabbergasted.

 

[Jabejazz]

Nerfs are honestly very trivial compared to the train that hit us with the removal of Vectoring.

Luigi, Mario, Sheik and Doc, which were fairly easy MUs pre-1.0.4, become trainwrecks the moment you get grabbed, even more so in Luigi's case.

That down throw is absolutely cancerous.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I just wish jet hammer wasn't so useless. Having a portable smash attack/GTFO move would be rather nice, though I guess pm has me spoiled in that regard.

To be honest I haven't really had a chance to see how different Dedede's matchups feel in 1.0.4, I've only played a couple serious patches since I've gotten the Wii U version and those were with Ganon/Charizard. But ugh, I personally already had trouble with the Mario matchup as D3.