1.0.10 Changes

[Chiroz]

Has Mewtwo's down air always spiked through the stage if hit during a disable?

Edit: this happened at the very edge of FD. This only happened once and Im unable to recreate it.

You can push Disabled people offstage by just walking into them. I am assuming that's what's going on. I had never tried it though.

 

[SaucyDancer]

Mewtwo is heavier than Game and Watch. Can someone else confirm this? I was using upthrows on FD and G&W dies earlier.

 

[Chiroz]

Mewtwo is heavier than Game and Watch. Can someone else confirm this? I was using upthrows on FD and G&W dies earlier.

Fall Speed influences vertical knockback A LOT. So does gravity speed.

Dedede dies 23% later than Bowser to U-Throw for example.

 

[Alses]

Think the move with less end lag and more hitboxes is f-smash, his arms aren't whiffing that easily anymore. Only small characters walking into him whiff now. Or placebo.

Can anyone else test his fsmash? I remember it having a lot more end lag than dsmash but I'm either really tired and can't feel the end lag right now or I'm crazy.

 

[SaucyDancer]

Fall Speed influences vertical knockback A LOT. So does gravity speed.

Dedede dies 23% later than Bowser to U-Throw for example.

Ok good to know. Although, someone else on reddit claimed that G&W was getting Ko'd earlier than Mewtwo with a downsmash. Would that prove anything?

 

[Chiroz]

Ok good to know. Although, someone else on reddit claimed that G&W was getting Ko'd earlier than Mewtwo with a downsmash. Would that prove anything?

Any move that kills from the top depends on Fall Speed and Gravity Speed. Which Down-Smash are we talking about?

Horizontal moves depend on aerial aerial acceleration to "drift" but Mewtwo can Side-B to save himself. Try seeing who dies earlier from an F-Smash. Or use the weights at the Pikmin Stage.



If you want to test against actual values see at what % Mewtwo dies from his own U-Throw. He should die at 115% with no DI and around 119-120% with proper DI. G&W used to die at 108% with no DI.

 

[drogoth232]

I have a good background in brawl modding so I can read the code to some degree, here's the changes that are on Dantarion's mastercore. Just giving general stuff, nothing specific until I get more time.

One of his attacks (57) ends faster, I think it's his dash attack. But I'm not sure
Another attack (65) which I believe is his down smash has more KBG
79 (a throw?) has more... of a value. Not sure if it's knockback or damage or even just a gfx value tbh

You guys can choose to believe me or not, but I implore you guys to check out my background in brawl coding both on Smashboards and KCMM.

 

[Chiroz]

I have a good background in brawl modding so I can read the code to some degree, here's the changes that are on Dantarion's mastercore. Just giving general stuff, nothing specific until I get more time.

One of his attacks (57) ends faster, I think it's his dash attack. But I'm not sure
Another attack (65) which I believe is his down smash has more KBG
79 (a throw?) has more... of a value. Not sure if it's knockback or damage or even just a gfx value tbh

You guys can choose to believe me or not, but I implore you guys to check out my background in brawl coding both on Smashboards and KCMM.

I already said this though. It's been said several times on the thread. It's D-Smash and F-Throw.

 

[drogoth232]

I already said this though. It's been said several times on the thread. It's D-Smash and F-Throw.

RIP timing. Dinner screwed up my timing.

Hopefully he'll get more buffs in the future. Feel like he needs a bit more help, but we'll see.

 

[Chiroz]

RIP timing. Dinner screwed up my timing.

Hopefully he'll get more buffs in the future. Feel like he needs a bit more help, but we'll see.

I still want to know which move has 1 less frame of endlag/hitbox.

I am assuming it's the N-Air small hits. It's a move with 3 hitboxes. Maybe one of his tail attacks or his F-Smash.

 

[drogoth232]

I still want to know which move has 1 less frame of endlag/hitbox.

I am assuming it's the N-Air small hits. It's a move with 3 hitboxes. Maybe one of his tail attacks or his F-Smash.

I would say otherwise because I don't think a single hit from nair would do 10%. Looking at the data of other characters, it's a move that's close to jab but it's not an aerial. Probably a tilt attack.

 

[Chiroz]

I would say otherwise because I don't think a single hit from nair would do 10%. Looking at the data of other characters, it's a move that's close to jab but it's not an aerial. Probably a tilt attack.

Ummm, 10% would probably be F-Tilt. It has 3 hitboxes too.

1 less frame duration and endlag on F-Tilt isn't that big of a deal to be honest.

 

[drogoth232]

Ummm, 10% would probably be F-Tilt. It has 3 hitboxes too.

1 less frame duration and endlag on F-Tilt isn't that big of a deal to be honest.

I don't look at frame data too much, so I had no idea lol. Mostly doing this because my friends were asking and I decided to help out for once.

It isn't, you're right. But I don't think they'd be keen on increasing his weight any time soon.

 

[Chiroz]

I don't look at frame data too much, so I had no idea lol. Mostly doing this because my friends were asking and I decided to help out for once.

It isn't, you're right. But I don't think they'd be keen on increasing his weight any time soon.

Well, I'll be testing that Down-Smash KB buff. Maybe it's stronger than F-Smash now.

 

[GanonPawnch]

Well, I'll be testing that Down-Smash KB buff. Maybe it's stronger than F-Smash now.

I doubt it's stronger than f-smash because that's like the whole point in f-smash. D-smash is the faster but weaker smash with no sour spot. If they made D-smash stronger, F-smash would almost be useless if you ask me, especially seeing how it has a sour spot.

 

[Chiroz]

I doubt it's stronger than f-smash because that's like the whole point in f-smash. D-smash is the faster but weaker smash with no sour spot. If they made D-smash stronger, F-smash would almost be useless if you ask me, especially seeing how it has a sour spot.

F-Smash deals more damage and hits on top. Right now there's 0 point to using D-Smash. Having less endlag on a 44 frame attack isn't exactly good.

 

[godogod]

Frm the official patch thread:

• Forward Throw projectile orb damage increased 1.5% → 2% (total damage 10.5% → 13%)
• Down Smash growth increased 112 → 118
• Forward Tilt hitbox duration decreased 3 → 2 fram

Apparently the forward tilt is actually a nerf.

 

[Chiroz]

Frm the official patch thread:

• Forward Throw projectile orb damage increased 1.5% → 2% (total damage 10.5% → 13%)
• Down Smash growth increased 112 → 118
• Forward Tilt hitbox duration decreased 3 → 2 fram

Apparently the forward tilt is actually a nerf.

It ends 1 frame earlier too. It's a change. IDK if a nerf or a buff. Sometimes having lingering hitboxes is good, sometimes it's not.

It's pretty meh either way.

 

[UnSaxon51]

Tested versions against each other and it seems like his Back Throw is noticeably stronger.
It now KOs Mario at around 129% from the edge of Final Destination (down from 138%)

 

[Chiroz]

Tested versions against each other and it seems like his Back Throw is noticeably stronger.
It now KOs Mario at around 129% from the edge of Final Destination (down from 138%)

If you're testing Wii U vs 3DS all stages have different blast zones.

I am 100% sure it KOd before 138% on Wii U also.




IIRC Back-Throw kills slightly earlier than U-Throw if done from the ledge and the opponent does the proper DI. U-Throw kills Mario at 136-137 with proper DI. B-Throw should be killing Mario at around 125-130% with good DI.

 

[UnSaxon51]

If you're testing Wii U vs 3DS all stages have different blast zones.

My numbers are based on 1.1.0 vs 1.0.8 (both on 3DS), so they would be different from the Wii U values. However, I was only testing with Training Dummy since it was 3DS.

Just tested on Wii U 1.1.0 and looks like I'm getting pretty close to the numbers you stated, so maybe not.

 

[Chiroz]

My numbers are based on 1.1.0 vs 1.0.8 (both on 3DS), so they would be different from the Wii U values. However, I was only testing with Training Dummy since it was 3DS.

Just tested on Wii U 1.1.0 and looks like I'm getting pretty close to the numbers you stated, so maybe not.

I mean if you're testing 2 3DS then maybe it got buffed. We should test it further.

 

[Karsticles]

I think the Ftilt change is a buff. There are only two situations you use Ftilt for;
1) When you are facing away from an opponent and want to hit behind you.
2) When you are being approached and pivot tilt.

Both of these don't need a lot of active frames.

Pretty sad buffs that don't address any of Mewtwo's probems. At least Fthrow has a clear purpose. Though, since Metaknight got his hitboxes fixed this patch, there might be hope for us still...

 

[Chiroz]

I think the Ftilt change is a buff. There are only two situations you use Ftilt for;
1) When you are facing away from an opponent and want to hit behind you.
2) When you are being approached and pivot tilt.

Both of these don't need a lot of active frames.

Pretty sad buffs that don't address any of Mewtwo's probems. At least Fthrow has a clear purpose. Though, since Metaknight got his hitboxes fixed this patch, there might be hope for us still...

Are these confirmed the only buffs though? I want yo believe there might be more stuff :'(.


Also a third use for F-Tilt. It hits below the edge for that 1 frame vulnerability (and hits people grabbing the ledge, although D-Smash is better at that point).

Ummm disregard that last "usage" of F-Tilt. Apparently angled F-Tilt has always had 1 less frame to begin with, lol.

yes.

to clarify: its the first hit ONLY of nair. for some reason that pops them straight up(not unlike the hitbox of his utilt). also, you have to fastfall it as fast as possible otherwise it sends them to the side for some ungodly reason...

the combo does 17%.

Ummmm, so yea while there's a LOT of placebo effect going on, this is actually real.

If you Fast Fall N-Air into someone on the ground it now pops them up above you and TRUE COMBOS into U-Smash. Works at ALL %s.

Also it's not the first hit only, it's the first hit you land. So like, don't land 2 hits, fast fall it and start the N-Air so only 1 hit lands.

This means N-Air's hitbox properties just got changed. Time for me to lab the move again....... (I had already labbed it for at least 5 hours).

EDIT 2: All of this was already in patch 1.0.8, it's just it's extremely hard to land on tall chars.




I just noticed this is a triple post. I am really sorry mods, I've been double and triple posting all day. It's just my phone is so slow and it doesn't load the messages so I just post before I can see the messages above mine. Please merge all these posts into 1 if able. Again, truly sorry.




Edit: It's possible N-Air always did this to be honest. It's actually quite hard to hit tall/big characters with only 1 hitbox. I can do it consistently on Kirby/Pikachu, but getting it on Sheik/Falcon actually requires very strict timing and getting it on Bowser is like just pure luck. N-Air might always have had this and we (or at least I) never noticed.


Edit 2: Yep, just tested 1.0.8 and indeed N-Air already did this. The first hit of N-Air if Fast Falled has always knocked the opponent on top of Mewtwo's head with a lot of hit stun. Guess we learn something new every day, huh? This is incredibly easy to get on small chars like Kirby or Pikachu, you literally just N-Air and Fast Fall into them (although it's not safe at all, so you shouldn't be doing this, lol).

I also just tested all frame data against 1.0.8. I wired a controller so both my 3DS and Wii U activated from the same button. From what I could tell no attack has any frames of difference, neither startup or endlag (except for F-Tilt). I mean F-Tilt was barely noticeable at all and I was actually looking to see the difference.

 

[pikazz]

mostly a huge placebo effect on me but DAir and BAir autocancle on SH which I never knew o.o

 

[MikamiLovesDeleting]

Ummmm, so yea while there's a LOT of placebo effect going on, this is actually real.

If you Fast Fall N-Air into someone on the ground it now pops them up above you and TRUE COMBOS into U-Smash. Works at ALL %s.

Also it's not the first hit only, it's the first hit you land. So like, don't land 2 hits, fast fall it and start the N-Air so only 1 hit lands.

This means N-Air's hitbox properties just got changed. Time for me to lab the move again....... (I had already labbed it for at least 5 hours).

EDIT 2: All of this was already in patch 1.0.8, it's just it's extremely hard to land on tall chars.




I just noticed this is a triple post. I am really sorry mods, I've been double and triple posting all day. It's just my phone is so slow and it doesn't load the messages so I just post before I can see the messages above mine. Please merge all these posts into 1 if able. Again, truly sorry.




Edit: It's possible N-Air always did this to be honest. It's actually quite hard to hit tall/big characters with only 1 hitbox. I can do it consistently on Kirby/Pikachu, but getting it on Sheik/Falcon actually requires very strict timing and getting it on Bowser is like just pure luck. N-Air might always have had this and we (or at least I) never noticed.


Edit 2: Yep, just tested 1.0.8 and indeed N-Air already did this. The first hit of N-Air if Fast Falled has always knocked the opponent on top of Mewtwo's head with a lot of hit stun. Guess we learn something new every day, huh? This is incredibly easy to get on small chars like Kirby or Pikachu, you literally just N-Air and Fast Fall into them (although it's not safe at all, so you shouldn't be doing this, lol).

I also just tested all frame data against 1.0.8. I wired a controller so both my 3DS and Wii U activated from the same button. From what I could tell no attack has any frames of difference, neither startup or endlag (except for F-Tilt). I mean F-Tilt was barely noticeable at all and I was actually looking to see the difference.

Were you also able to confirm the reduced endlag on Ftilt?

 

[ORVO5]

Anyone check if the Shadow Ball push back got a buff? Or if it has less ending lag? I seem to be able to use smashes faster after landing.

(As in, jump > Shadow Ball > land > Smash)

Ummmm, so yea while there's a LOT of placebo effect going on, this is actually real.

If you Fast Fall N-Air into someone on the ground it now pops them up above you and TRUE COMBOS into U-Smash. Works at ALL %s

Is that really viable for the metagame though? I could do it but only 50% of the time when fighting good players. It may be a true combo... if it works.

 

[Chiroz]

Were you also able to confirm the reduced endlag on Ftilt?

Well I mean they took a frame off, it's not reduced endlag, the endlag is technically the same. The move lasts 1 less frame.

Anyone check if the Shadow Ball push back got a buff? Or if it has less ending lag? I seem to be able to use smashes faster after landing.

(As in, jump > Shadow Ball > land > Smash)


Is that really viable for the metagame though? I could do it but only 50% of the time when fighting good players. It may be a true combo... if it works.

It's extremely unsafe and it's harder to land depending on how tall your opponent is. We can already U-Tilt small chars to get the guaranteed U-Smash but I would say that in the big offchance that an opponent somehow performs a very laggy move when you're too far away to jab/tilt you could short hop fast fall N-Air into U-Smash for a kill.

Example: a Pikachu D-Smashes. You can SH FF N-Air into U-Smash for a kill.



It has it's uses but it's not a valid approach option, it's way too unsafe for that.

 

[MikamiLovesDeleting]

Well I mean they took a frame off, it's not reduced endlag, the endlag is technically the same. The move lasts 1 less frame.

You mentioned earlier there was a move with reduced lag. So it wasn't Ftilt?

 

[Chiroz]

It is F-Tilt, it has reduced duration.

As in before the move lasted say 36 frames (24 of those being endlag), now the move lasts 35 frames (24 of those being endlag).



I misspoke when I said endlag, the hitbox is the part that lasts 1/3rd less time.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

You know, I was thinking that we shouldn't really expect many changes from the patches this early, because he is still pretty new. But that was until I saw the changes that got:

• Forward aerial damage increased (8% → 9%).
• Forward tilt's sweetspot hitbox size increased (4.0 → 4.4).
• Forward tilt's sourspot hitbox size increased (2.0u → 2.2u).
• Down tilt's far hitbox horizontal displacement (7.0 → 7.2).
• Down tilt's middle hitbox angle altered (0° → 40°).
• Down tilt's horizontal displacement (2.7 → 3.0).
• Down tilt's growth reduced (50 → 45).
• Down tilt's close hitbox angle altered (70 → 76).
• Down tilt's base knockback increased (10 → 18).
• Down tilt's displacement (0 → 3.5).
• Grab range early size increased (2.5 → 3.0).
• Grab range later size increased (2.4 → 2.8).

Are you kidding me?! He hasn't even been out for two months and he already has gotten buffed like that from one patch? And now we look at Mewtwo, been out for 3 1/2 months, and he has only gotten landing lag reduced on nair, and damage increases on f-throw and d-smash, as if that was actually needed, and also had f-tilt duration decreased, and had his best killing move, up-smash, nerfed to hell by cutting the hitbox in half. And this was the total from 2 patches. So never mind, him not being out for very long is no excuse. They are just completely oblivious to Mewtwo's problems and probably just don't give a **** about him, which wouldn't surprise me considering the state this character was in when it got released.

Now I know that we could find more changes from this patch soon, but for right now, I'm salty.

 

[MOI-ARI]

You know, I was thinking that we shouldn't really expect many changes from the patches this early, because he is still pretty new. But that was until I saw the changes that got:

• Forward aerial damage increased (8% → 9%).
• Forward tilt's sweetspot hitbox size increased (4.0 → 4.4).
• Forward tilt's sourspot hitbox size increased (2.0u → 2.2u).
• Down tilt's far hitbox horizontal displacement (7.0 → 7.2).
• Down tilt's middle hitbox angle altered (0° → 40°).
• Down tilt's horizontal displacement (2.7 → 3.0).
• Down tilt's growth reduced (50 → 45).
• Down tilt's close hitbox angle altered (70 → 76).
• Down tilt's base knockback increased (10 → 18).
• Down tilt's displacement (0 → 3.5).
• Grab range early size increased (2.5 → 3.0).
• Grab range later size increased (2.4 → 2.8).

Are you kidding me?! He hasn't even been out for two months and he already has gotten buffed like that from one patch? And now we look at Mewtwo, been out for 3 1/2 months, and he has only gotten landing lag reduced on nair, and damage increases on f-throw and d-smash, as if that was actually needed, and also had f-tilt duration decreased, and had his best killing move, up-smash, nerfed to hell by cutting the hitbox in half. And this was the total from 2 patches. So never mind, him not being out for very long is no excuse. They are just completely oblivious to Mewtwo's problems and probably just don't give a **** about him, which wouldn't surprise me considering the state this character was in when it got released.

Now I know that we could find more changes from this patch soon, but for right now, I'm salty.

At least your character got something.....

- "......"

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

At least your character got something.....

- "......"

Oh, you main one of the bottom 5 too? Yep, it's an ugly world right now.

 

[Browny]

I think fthrow might be doing even more that 13% now, I am consistently managing to get 14% on that move which means it must be doing closer to 13.4% than 13.0%

 

[Chiroz]

I think fthrow might be doing even more that 13% now, I am consistently managing to get 14% on that move which means it must be doing closer to 13.4% than 13.0%

Attacks do 1.05% when fresh.

 

[Browny]

I know that, but this is testing in normal game situations. Taking into account staling as well, the amount that the move should theoretically decrease by isnt adding up. I compared it to uthrow and used bair in between to break up the stale move chain and make the throws no longer fresh.

fthrow (fresh) 13 12 11
fthrow (after bair) 14 12 11
fthrow (after uthrow) 14 12 11

uthrow (fresh) 12 11 10
uthrow (after bair) 13 11 10
uthrow (after fthrow) 13 11 10

The bold number is the damage of the first attack, the next two follow.

I'm not sure what to make of this, if bair is fresh (which it was) it should have been doing 13.65%, therefore for the uthrow to bring the enemy to 26%, it must have been doing 12.35% at least.

For the fthrow to bring the enemy to 27% after bair, it must be doing 13.35%.

Now, I'm not saying my maths is perfect but I think uthrow does slightly more than 12% and similarly for fthrow, I dont know how else I could have got the enemy to 27% after 1 bair and 1 fthrow.

 

[Chiroz]

I know that, but this is testing in normal game situations. Taking into account staling as well, the amount that the move should theoretically decrease by isnt adding up. I compared it to uthrow and used bair in between to break up the stale move chain and make the throws no longer fresh.

fthrow (fresh) 13 12 11
fthrow (after bair) 14 12 11
fthrow (after uthrow) 14 12 11

uthrow (fresh) 12 11 10
uthrow (after bair) 13 11 10
uthrow (after fthrow) 13 11 10

The bold number is the damage of the first attack, the next two follow.

I'm not sure what to make of this, if bair is fresh (which it was) it should have been doing 13.65%, therefore for the uthrow to bring the enemy to 26%, it must have been doing 12.35% at least.

For the fthrow to bring the enemy to 27% after bair, it must be doing 13.35%.

Now, I'm not saying my maths is perfect but I think uthrow does slightly more than 12% and similarly for fthrow, I dont know how else I could have got the enemy to 27% after 1 bair and 1 fthrow.

Fresh B-Air = 13.65

Fresh U-Throw = 12.6

B-Air + U-Throw = 26.25



Fresh F-Throw = 13.65

B-Air + F-Throw = 27.3




I don't get what you're saying.



Edit: After reading your post again I see you don't understand move staling. Move staling only applies to the move you've already landed. So if you land a B-Air only B-Air isn't fresh, all your other moves are fresh.

Move staling is a 10 attack queue. An attack does less damage based on 2 things:

1-) Number of times it appears on the 10 attack list
2-) How close to the top of the queue each of those times is



So basically each slot of the queue (going from 1-10) is worth an specific % decrease in damage. The 1st slot is a higher decrease than the 2nd, etc, etc. In order to know exactly how much damage a move will be decreased by you just add up all the decreases from each slot the move is currently present at.



For future reference. An easy way to see how much an attack truly deals is to just use it 10 times in training then divide it by 10.

Training mode has no move staling/freshness. Also if the move deals decimal damage it will show up exactly what the decimal damage is after 10 times.

 

[Browny]

I know what stale moves are and how they work, but something still doesn't add up, this is from a normal game.

fresh bair = 13%
fresh fthrow = 13%
fresh bair + fthrow = 27%
fresh fthrow + bair = 27%

two bairs in a row from fresh = 25%
two fthrows in a row from fresh = 25%

HOWEVER
4 fthrows in a row = 47%
4 bairs = 46%
4 fairs in a row = 46%

Using it in training is getting 10 in a row to be 13% but that doesn't explain this odd damage I'm getting in a normal match.

In the limited time I have played this patch, I am regularly getting 14% fthrows despite very rarely... almost never getting 14% bairs or fairs.

It's not as simple as you are making it out to be.

 

[Chiroz]

I know what stale moves are and how they work, but something still doesn't add up, this is from a normal game.

fresh bair = 13%
fresh fthrow = 13%
fresh bair + fthrow = 27%
fresh fthrow + bair = 27%

two bairs in a row from fresh = 25%
two fthrows in a row from fresh = 25%

HOWEVER
4 fthrows in a row = 47%
4 bairs = 46%
4 fairs in a row = 46%

Using it in training is getting 10 in a row to be 13% but that doesn't explain this odd damage I'm getting in a normal match.

In the limited time I have played this patch, I am regularly getting 14% fthrows despite very rarely... almost never getting 14% bairs or fairs.

It's not as simple as you are making it out to be.

Fresh B-Air = 13.65% shows up as 13%
Fresh F-Throw = 13.65% shows up as 13%
Fresh B-Air + Fresh F-Throw = 27%
Why did you do this twice?


Fresh B-Air + Stale B-Air = 25%
Fresh F-Throw + Stale F-Throw = 25%




I imagine that the Hand Push Attack is counted as a different attack than the multi-hit Shadow Balls are. This would mean the attacks would start going to lower slots on the queue and would thus not get as much reduced damage.

So say you do B-Air 3 times, this means B-Air is now position 1-3 on the queue when you hit your 4th B-Air. These are the 3 positions that lower the damage the most.

But now say you do 3 F-Throws, when you do your 4th F-Throw, the Hand Push portion occupies slots 1, 3 and 5 which are not as strong as 1, 2 and 3. The Shadow Balls occupy slots 2, 4 and 6 which are also not as strong. Thus the attack as a whole deals more damage.

Multi-hits are counted as 1 move, so I would assume the Shadow Balls count as 1 move but it is also possible that the Shadow Balls all count as 1 individual move too (some jabs do this for example, while others don't).

If the Shadow Balls all count as 1 individual move then F-Throw just got it's biggest and best use, move freshening. But I highly doubt they do. The Hand Push attack and the Shadow Balls though might actually be 2 different attacks and might be counted as separate attacks for the queue. That's probably what's causing that difference.

 

[Browny]

OK something is definitely strange.

I just tested a bunch of other characters who have attacks that do 13%, they all went like this
13% - 25% - 36% - 46%

but mewtwos fthrow consistently goes
13% - 25% - 36% - 47%

Maybe it is counting as 2 moves in the stale move queue. Either way, its a good thing. The move is just slightly better now and in fact I believe this gives Mewtwo the single most damaging throw in the game