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“There are no low tier characters, only low tier players.”
- Thread starter Fire!
- Start date
Ryazan
Smash Ace
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
Yuna.....since when did you main Zelda in Brawl? >_>.
..... it was a joke ok? xD
Since day 1. Sure, she was not my most frequently used main, but she was there nonetheless. I have mor than 1 main for Brawl, BTW. And several secondaries. And even tertiaries. And even quarternaries.
So in order to not be arbitrarily labeled as a cheap player when picking up a character that's Evidently NOT Cheap, I have to not use everything that character has and limit myself from using that character's very best strategies, combos, moves and whatever bovine manure they possess?
White Assassin
Smash Cadet
i don`t agree.
your sentence is just right, if you talk about a pro bowser vs a casual snake player.
i think that some moves, their speed and hit box make a special advantage that some charas are better than others.
although in melee among the pros the main difference between them were their mindgames.
your sentence is just right, if you talk about a pro bowser vs a casual snake player.
i think that some moves, their speed and hit box make a special advantage that some charas are better than others.
although in melee among the pros the main difference between them were their mindgames.
pockyD
Smash Legend
MIND GAMEs
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
Holy **** on a **** sandwich.
Ryazan
Smash Ace
Is Yuna the new Azen or something?
AzenはAzenです。
I would never decide who to play with at a tournament through random. When I play at tournaments, I counterpick and use my best mains.
All I said was "Azen is Azen."
And now I no longer wish I knew, because I know.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
these threads are so awesome
AlAxe
Smash Journeyman
People do use cheapness as an excuse very often. You don't even want to know how much I get that when I play Snake. Any character can beat any other in the hands of the right player but there definitely are some characters that have advantages over others. Cheapness is pretty much just a bad excuse.
Randofu
Smash Journeyman
Not to beat a dead horse of a topic, but I liked seeing someone using Ganon.
Still, this didn't negate my point. You only managed to successfully show that low-tier players do exist, not that low-tier characters don't exist.
That Falco was pretty bad... If that Ganon actually went up against someone decent, despite how well Sliq played I doubt he would have won.Also, is it considered a john if an outside observer comments on it? Apparently the only response to calling something cheap is "No johns" for some reason... However, when I see youtube videos of chain grabs I will often view it as "being cheap", despite the fact that I have no stake in the outcome of the match. That's just because I play friendly games, where inescapable combos that last for too long only serve to annoy everyone since we're not focused only on winning. That, for instance, is the reason that we turned off the Fan... no matter how you look at it, it's a "cheap" item.
Edit: To clarify, I even consider it cheap when -I- use the fan, to the point where I just choose not to use it.
Yeah, I totally do agree with the first post. Certain characters lend themselves to spamming more than others do. I main Zelda and many people say that Zelda players generally do spam smashes and Din's Fire. People sometimes tell me that I spam Din's Fire, but if they are flying far off the stage, and I want to get that final hit... is it more or less risky to jump off with them and attempt to land a dair, or to just accurately aim a Din's Fire (or 2 or 3) and send them off the boundary?
Yeah, in the long run, spamming is frowned upon. No, people should not care about it. If you are good enough then you are able to counter a move that is so over-used that it is considered to be spamming. I wouldn't consider using a move a few times in a row spamming. I often see people backing themselves out of commiting an "A-lock." This is really unnecessary, as clearly they were being successful. If it works, do it. If your opponent cannot stop your spamming or predict your moves to kill you, then they deserve to be spammed against. [/rant]
Yeah, in the long run, spamming is frowned upon. No, people should not care about it. If you are good enough then you are able to counter a move that is so over-used that it is considered to be spamming. I wouldn't consider using a move a few times in a row spamming. I often see people backing themselves out of commiting an "A-lock." This is really unnecessary, as clearly they were being successful. If it works, do it. If your opponent cannot stop your spamming or predict your moves to kill you, then they deserve to be spammed against. [/rant]
Ban3
Smash Journeyman
w00ps ignore plzz
This is probably a great time to repeat what I said earlier. Tiers exist, but they matter much, much less than people give them credit for. No amount of advantages to using a certain character will ever outdo the mind of the player (after all, that's what fighting games are made for), especially an agile-minded player.Not to beat a dead horse of a topic, but I liked seeing someone using Ganon.
Still, this didn't negate my point. You only managed to successfully show that low-tier players do exist, not that low-tier characters don't exist.
Also, is it considered a john if an outside observer comments on it? Apparently the only response to calling something cheap is "No johns" for some reason... However, when I see youtube videos of chain grabs I will often view it as "being cheap", despite the fact that I have no stake in the outcome of the match. That's just because I play friendly games, where inescapable combos that last for too long only serve to annoy everyone since we're not focused only on winning. That, for instance, is the reason that we turned off the Fan... no matter how you look at it, it's a "cheap" item.
Edit: To clarify, I even consider it cheap when -I- use the fan, to the point where I just choose not to use it.
As far as spamming techniques, as effective as they are, I only really save them for opponents I don't actually want to fight, as I don't really feel fulfilled winning that way. I don't really feel that I fought the opponent, just that I put them down as effectively as possible.
kailo34ce
Smash Lord
lols why am i still subscribed to this nub thread
chic
Smash Ace
Seems like most people who say tiers don't exist are the ones that use top tier characters ^_^
^^^^ I'm sure thats been said before btw.
^^^^ I'm sure thats been said before btw.
25%Cotton
Smash Ace
LOL, spamming isn't cheap. it should be easy to get around. only exception is maybe MK's tornado... but once you know how to consistently get around it, it's not TOO bad.
anyway, if you want CHEAP, it's things like lag screwing up your tilted pounds as jigglypuff. it's pretty cheap how instead of slapping your opponent in a downwards or upwards motion of the hand, you start singing or fall asleep, to get KOd by your opponent.
anyway, if you want CHEAP, it's things like lag screwing up your tilted pounds as jigglypuff. it's pretty cheap how instead of slapping your opponent in a downwards or upwards motion of the hand, you start singing or fall asleep, to get KOd by your opponent.
TriforceMaster5282
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2008
- Messages
- 84
Yeah srry pocky but they dont, i TOTALLY agree with the thread, and i support it 105%! Link rules period.
Iron Thorn
Smash Lord
Tiers exist. If you take a great player and clone him, then have one clone use Meta Knight and the other use Captain Falcon...
...The first one will win. All the manliness, hard nipples and Falcon Punches in the world will not change the fact that a top-notch Falcon, though he might be able to send a n00b's Dedede or Game & Watch crying home to momma, will have a VERY difficult time winning against a top-notch Meta Knight.
The fact that the tiers in Brawl are poorly defined (aside from God tier and crap tier) doesn't mean they don't exist.
...The first one will win. All the manliness, hard nipples and Falcon Punches in the world will not change the fact that a top-notch Falcon, though he might be able to send a n00b's Dedede or Game & Watch crying home to momma, will have a VERY difficult time winning against a top-notch Meta Knight.
The fact that the tiers in Brawl are poorly defined (aside from God tier and crap tier) doesn't mean they don't exist.
Sad Panda323
Smash Journeyman
Thank you for confirming the stereotype about most '08ers.
Tiers exist. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a scrub, and kidding themselves.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Should people who show very little actual knowledge of the game being making topics like this?
I think not. There are crappy characters, there are good characters, grow the **** up.
I think not. There are crappy characters, there are good characters, grow the **** up.
TheREALShadowChaos
Smash Journeyman
Let me show how important tiers and skill are for a Brawl battle.
Tiers: <---->
Skill: <------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>
Pretty acurate IMO.
Tiers: <---->
Skill: <------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>
Pretty acurate IMO.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Don't stretch the **** page.
MarKO X
Smash Champion
- Joined
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- 2,542
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- legendnumberM
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This reminds of the whole "Everyone is special in their own way" campaign. This is True, but some people are more special than others.
The same goes for characters in any remotely competitive game, period.
The same goes for characters in any remotely competitive game, period.
I think we established a few pages ago that tiers always exist, but they matter much, much less than people give them credit for. Skill, and the power to adapt to the situation, has always been the most important, as well as how well you mesh with the characters you use.
I'm sure if you were to clone me and put me in a match in, say Melee, of Kirby vs Marth, Kirby would win, because Kirby is my own best character, even if I use both of them equally and train equally with them. Not because any character is inherently better, but because Kirby works better with my particular playstyle.
hippochinfat!!
Smash Lord
tiers dont exist...it so obveuos u guyz are so dum and gai.
okey first of all characacter has pros and con so u rly cant say any1 is worse den da other u stupid nubs. Lol i culd pwn u guys so hard. i pwned my friend who uses Snake w/ captain falcon so deres proof tiers dont exist lol u guyz are dum.
TIERS R 4 QUEERS LOL N0000000000000000000BS
okey first of all characacter has pros and con so u rly cant say any1 is worse den da other u stupid nubs. Lol i culd pwn u guys so hard. i pwned my friend who uses Snake w/ captain falcon so deres proof tiers dont exist lol u guyz are dum.
TIERS R 4 QUEERS LOL N0000000000000000000BS
DivineBeast
Smash Cadet
Tier list and cheap moves are two seperate things.... so your not rephrasing anything.
Tomkraven
Smash Journeyman
I agree that tiers do exist because theres characters that have a slight(sometimes huge) advantage over other but the point why do people like or tend to make the tier list.
They insist that a tier list has to be done and that is important to have one. thats wrong cause by making tier list you are not only taking lightly some character but also your creating a tendency for new player to play the high tier character(ya... who would like so play a so called "crappy character"), and this will probably result in the decay of low tier chars metagame that logically will re enforce the tier list.
this kind of vicious cycle will damage more the competitive game than help.
They insist that a tier list has to be done and that is important to have one. thats wrong cause by making tier list you are not only taking lightly some character but also your creating a tendency for new player to play the high tier character(ya... who would like so play a so called "crappy character"), and this will probably result in the decay of low tier chars metagame that logically will re enforce the tier list.
this kind of vicious cycle will damage more the competitive game than help.
Alus
Smash Champion
in my opinion... that is sig worthy...
Tomkraven
Smash Journeyman
Tiers are based off of both usage and power. In a competitive metagame, it is assumed that people will do everything they can to win. Even using the so called "cheap" moves. Mostly this applies to Snake's Utilt, but even Luigi's sweetspotted Up B falls into this category. If something is broken or overcentralizing, then they (competitive players) will use said broken character in order to win. This is the correlation between usage and power. It's also why tournament standings are used a lot to determine tiers. For every three Metaknight players in a tournament, there may be only one Ness player. What is powerful is used a lot, and magnifies the effect of said character on the metagame. If there was a character who was great but impossible to use, then he would be considered less of a threat, because the competitive players would flock to the higher tier characters, who are high tier because they require less effort/skill to defeat the rest of the cast.
But of course there are people who think they are above this. Many think that they are good enough to win with a lower tier character due to their increased skill level. But if these people are as good as they say they are, then they would be able to simply dominate using the highest tier characters instead of just doing decently with, say, Captain Falcon. If one does not wish to be better/more sucessful at Brawl, or whatever game they play competitively, then it is safe to say that they are not competitive players, regardless of their skill level.
How would one define "cheap"? Basically it is a tactic that falls disfavorably upon the opponent. Usually players in a competitive way are only annoyed when they lose to a player they should have beaten. This is ultimately the players fault for losing. A cheap tactic, defined by the victim, is then usually a tactic that the opponent utilizes to win. However, cheapness does not imply brokenness. Cheapness boils down to the inability of a player to get around a strategy that the opponent utilizes, ususally a simple strategy. Now why can't a player get around this? The person being called cheap is actually the smarter one, because they used a strategy that got inside the opponent's head and made it harder for said opponent to win. It is safe to say, then, that the "cheap" player is of higher skill. So since some argue that skill transcends character ability, it doesn't matter that the higher-skilled player is using Snake/MK, who are generally viewed to have cheap strategies; they were just better, so they won. This is why the skill>character ability argument loses viability.
And there is no "honor" in a competitive game, if you are actually playing competitive. A win is still a win, and if you are willing to forego winning then you are not playing competitive. Simple as that.
But of course there are people who think they are above this. Many think that they are good enough to win with a lower tier character due to their increased skill level. But if these people are as good as they say they are, then they would be able to simply dominate using the highest tier characters instead of just doing decently with, say, Captain Falcon. If one does not wish to be better/more sucessful at Brawl, or whatever game they play competitively, then it is safe to say that they are not competitive players, regardless of their skill level.
How would one define "cheap"? Basically it is a tactic that falls disfavorably upon the opponent. Usually players in a competitive way are only annoyed when they lose to a player they should have beaten. This is ultimately the players fault for losing. A cheap tactic, defined by the victim, is then usually a tactic that the opponent utilizes to win. However, cheapness does not imply brokenness. Cheapness boils down to the inability of a player to get around a strategy that the opponent utilizes, ususally a simple strategy. Now why can't a player get around this? The person being called cheap is actually the smarter one, because they used a strategy that got inside the opponent's head and made it harder for said opponent to win. It is safe to say, then, that the "cheap" player is of higher skill. So since some argue that skill transcends character ability, it doesn't matter that the higher-skilled player is using Snake/MK, who are generally viewed to have cheap strategies; they were just better, so they won. This is why the skill>character ability argument loses viability.
And there is no "honor" in a competitive game, if you are actually playing competitive. A win is still a win, and if you are willing to forego winning then you are not playing competitive. Simple as that.