“There are no low tier characters, only low tier players.”

[Fire!]

Allow me to rephrase. “There are no cheap characters, only cheap players.”



Agree? Disagree?

What do you think? Personally I agree, any character can beat any other character if they try hard enough. I use Meta Knight and I've gotten my fair share of flames.

"Meta Knight Spams"
"He's Cheap"

Well I don't spam, calling a character cheap is just another John in my opinion. When fighting a Meta Knight or a Ike or any character that is called cheap, you should know that how to beat them. Take advantage of Meta Knight's lightweight. Time Ike's attacks and counter.
But still, people disagree, and I don't see why.

Its the players choice to spam and camp, its not the characters fault. Someone prove to me that this statement is wrong, or help defend it.

 

[PKSkyler]

O_o I dont hear that Ike is cheap that much...maybe its just me.....I use Ness and my friends say im cheap with Pk Fire and PK Thunder but Ness is always considered a "low-tier" character.... so yeah I guess cheap might be just an excuse, but also I dont know because I think chain grabs are pretty cheap, which everyone`s excuse is "Dont get grabbed" so im not exactly sure....

 

[pockyD]

disagree

tiers exist, get over it

 

[Pythag]

Right, that makes perfect sense.
Except...it doesn't.
low tier characters are low tier because of their ranking in tournaments. It generally means that there are huge disadvantages to playing as them, or that there are more bad match ups than good ones for that character. You wouldn't understand because you main metaknight.

I don't agree with calling a move "cheap" because if you're lame enough to let yourself get hit with the same move 7 times in a row (barring infinites) then its because of your lack of skill.

"it's the players choice to spam and camp, its not the characters fault."
Right again.
Oh wait, let's look at characters that aren't metaknight.
DDD has infinite chaingrabs on 5 characters. You tell me that it's due to a lack of skill on my part that that's possible. Totally the characters fault.

 

[Professional Idiot]

Tiers are statistically derived, which kinda invalidates this thread. While it is true that a match's outcome is mostly dependent on player ability, tiers exist because the game isn't perfectly balanced.

 

[Plazma]

tiers will always exist to an extent

 

[ndayday]

Right, that makes perfect sense.
Except...it doesn't.
low tier characters are low tier because of their ranking in tournaments. It generally means that there are huge disadvantages to playing as them, or that there are more bad match ups than good ones for that character. You wouldn't understand because you main metaknight.

I don't agree with calling a move "cheap" because if you're lame enough to let yourself get hit with the same move 7 times in a row (barring infinites) then its because of your lack of skill.

"it's the players choice to spam and camp, its not the characters fault."
Right again.
Oh wait, let's look at characters that aren't metaknight.
DDD has infinite chaingrabs on 5 characters. You tell me that it's due to a lack of skill on my part that that's possible. Totally the characters fault.

I agree 100% with you.

 

[metaknightp0wns]

disagree tiers exits and always will and whoever says they dont use a high tier char or are n00bs

 

[victra♥]

Unless every character was exactly the same, there will always be a tier list. Always.

 

[SmashChu]

tiers will always exist to an extent

Truth. Also, everyone else is wrong. He gets an A, the rest of you tier guys got an F for being wrong.

I do agree with Brawl. While some characters are stronger then they should be, overall, the cast is well balanced and no characters is useless (as much as this board disagrees).

Also, one problem with tournament Brawl is going to be that it was established before Brawl came out. With Melee, it started late, but since it did most people got a feel for the roster. Now, since smashboards exist, people will jump onto a character and train with just them and not focus on the other character, and since the other characters don't get played as in tournament, little is known about them. Basically, they are considered weaker then the other and shoved to the side.

In other words, the tier list for Brawl will never be correct since not every character is played as. Part of the reason you see very few characters played in tournaments despite a larger roster.

 

[Fire!]

DDD has infinite chaingrabs on 5 characters. You tell me that it's due to a lack of skill on my part that that's possible. Totally the characters fault.

Well isn't it the players fault for using that infinite chaingrab?

 

[Airwalkerr]

Tiers are in place to protect our hidden society here at Smash boards. I will not let you or anyone else jeapordize the system we have built and kept secret all these years! enough with the terrible movie plot line. Tiers are necessary. Success, yes, depends on how well a player performs. And you have a valid point. People should not be complaining about how cheap MK is when you beat them in a fair fight. They should find a way to take advantage. But look at it like this. I could clone myself, thus making sure my opponent and I are of equal ability. I could play Capt. Falcon, my clone would play, say, MK. MK wins. Because the character that is MK is just straight up better than the character that is Captain Falcon. Thus, tiers.

 

[Fire!]

Allow me to rephrase.


“There are no cheap characters, only cheap players.”

 

[Watkins]

Whatever helps you sleep at night buddy.

 

[SmashChu]

But look at it like this. I could clone myself, thus making sure my opponent and I are of equal ability. I could play Capt. Falcon, my clone would play, say, MK. MK wins. Because the character that is MK is just straight up better than the character that is Captain Falcon. Thus, tiers.

Actually, that doesn't prove tiers exist. In fact, it points to why tiers are impossible.

You are cloning yourself. One of you uses Meta-Knight and the other uses Falcon, but you are better with Meta-Knight (which is probably the case). Of course the Meta-Knight wins becuase you can't use Falcon.

Bascially, theirs can be close but can never be exact, and tiers can be wrong. They are relative. It is based that if two players are equally good, then the higher tier character can win. But it is almost impossible for that to happen, and if one character got more attention then another by the community it creates a self fulfilling prophesy. So, teirs can be a guide at best but there is no way for it to be perfect.

But also, don't let it sway your opinion. In numerous other fighting games, low tier characters have been able to fight and win against high tiers. Don't let anything stop you from using your characters. Especially with Brawl, as there are no absolutely worthless characters.

 

[talking_chicken]

Something interesting to note: Rock Paper Scissors has tiers. Wait, what? Tiers? In a game where there are three seemingly equal choices?

Yes, there are three choices. Each choice ties with itself, beats one choice and loses to the other. But wait, there's more! What if people didn't choose all three choices evenly? What if we compiled a list of high level RPS matches, and tried to see what beat what more often? The Rock-Scissors matchup might come up more than the other ones, therefore, rock is high tier, since it wins the most matches.

Anyway, I'm off on a tangent. I just thought I'd mention that tiers exist in places you might not expect. If tiers can exist in a game as seemingly balanced as RPS, then tiers can exist in Brawl as well.

 

[Fire!]

This is my fault, but the title is wrong. What the quote should say is


“There are no cheap characters, only cheap players.”

I know, the title is misleading

 

[Airwalkerr]

I never said that was always the case. I was generalizing a situation. Of course a Falcon can beat a MK of equal skill, if played smart. However, the effort exerted to win would have to be much higher than that of the MK, because MK is at a natural advantage here. Note that I main Luigi, as average on the.... well, as of right now, nonexistant tier list, as any other character.

 

[Blarfenzo]

Tiers do exist, if you're saying Meta Knight isn't inherently better than Captain Falcon you're blind.
They effect equal skill level matches. If two people are evenly matched skillwise but one uses a character much higher in the tier, the lower tier's chance are slim to none.


"Cheapness" is determined by character if that's what you're trying to denounce.
Try to be "cheap" with Captain Falcon or Ganondorf, not going to happen.
However Meta Knight and Snake have the capabilities to do so.
Though realistically cheapness is something made up by noobs as an excuse for why they lost to things easy to read like spamming.

 

[kailo34ce]

Every Game Has Low Tier And High Tier...duh...this Is Dumb..

 

[Zap657]

Did you even read the first post?

I agree that it's the player being cheap, and not that the character itself is cheap.

 

[AmigoOne]

Actually, that doesn't prove tiers exist. In fact, it points to why tiers are impossible.

You are cloning yourself. One of you uses Meta-Knight and the other uses Falcon, but you are better with Meta-Knight (which is probably the case). Of course the Meta-Knight wins becuase you can't use Falcon.

Bascially, theirs can be close but can never be exact, and tiers can be wrong. They are relative. It is based that if two players are equally good, then the higher tier character can win. But it is almost impossible for that to happen, and if one character got more attention then another by the community it creates a self fulfilling prophesy. So, teirs can be a guide at best but there is no way for it to be perfect.

But also, don't let it sway your opinion. In numerous other fighting games, low tier characters have been able to fight and win against high tiers. Don't let anything stop you from using your characters. Especially with Brawl, as there are no absolutely worthless characters.

You are ********. Some characters are just better than others. "Relative" skill or people inherent preference does not change the fact that some character are in fact better than others.
But still, yes, keep using your favorite characters. The game is ment for fun.

 

[Zombieoficer]

Of course it's the player's choice. But that would mean that they would be holding back, and tiers aren't based on a character holding back. They're based on what the characters can actually do.

And, of course you could beat anyone if you tried hard enough. (To an extent) But that's just the thing. Low tier characters have to try harder. That's what tiers are.

 

[SmashChu]

You are ********. Some characters are just better than others. "Relative" skill or people inherent preference does not change the fact that some character are in fact better than others.

Thats the pot calling the kettle black. You said nothing that in any way that proves I am wrong or that I am a ******.

gg

 

[Mic_128]

"Cheap" is just people's excuses for being beaten by a relatively simple seeming move that they feel that they can't do anything about.

 

[CodeBlack]

This mentality has always annoyed me: people always seem to be finding ways to remove the player from the equation. "Some characters are better than others, so two equal fighters using different characters will always have one result." It's foolish, it's simply saying that a person doesn't matter and the character they use is all that matters, and it's especially foolish in a fighting game, which entirely relies on ones own skill. Win or lose, it's just an excuse.

That said, I'd say that tiers do exist in some form, but they are much less pivotal than people give them credit for. In most cases, or at least, with most players, they shouldn't really matter at all; all that matters is if you can adapt to the situation.

No inherent traits of a specific character are inherently more effective than human ingenuity. Ever. Period.

 

[Vyse]

This mentality has always annoyed me: people always seem to be finding ways to remove the player from the equation. "Some characters are better than others, so two equal fighters using different characters will always have one result." It's foolish, it's simply saying that a person doesn't matter and the character they use is all that matters, and it's especially foolish in a fighting game, which entirely relies on ones own skill. Win or lose, it's just an excuse.

That said, I'd say that tiers do exist in some form, but they are much less pivotal than people give them credit for. In most cases, or at least, with most players, they shouldn't really matter at all; all that matters is if you can adapt to the situation.

No inherent traits of a specific character are inherently more effective than human ingenuity. Ever. Period.

I main Diddy Kong for this reason. Despite previously maining Falco in Melee. Falco may be considered a high tiered character this time round too, but I simply *feel* that I am better with Diddy Kong in Brawl.

Tier lists will always be a good guide, but that is all they are.

 

[TheWii]

Tiers dont exist. Just because another charachter is more popular and more used than another doesnt mean that the other charachter suck. People just dont know how to play with them.

 

[SummerObsession]

Tiers exist as they are just a list of rankings at tournaments.

Snake's F-tilt does 21 damage which is most than most smashes, has huge range, and is quick. All of Snakes move have killing power, and he is hard to knock out, etc. Metaknight has no lag in his attacks, best recovery in the game, easy to use, etc. Both of them are overpowered and can be considered cheap when compared to other characters in the game.

Codeblack said"No inherent traits of a specific character are inherently more effective than human ingenuity. Ever. Period."

Lets imagine two people with the same amount of skill AND human ingenuity face off. One uses MK and the other uses CF. Who's going to win more? Out of a Million games played between the two The MK player is going to win more often hands down.

Let's say for example the creators of the game arbitrarily made a move that did 50%, came out in one frame, and can knock out at 75%. That there would be a cheap move. So cheap moves can and DO exist. Cough Snake's F-tilt cough.

 

[:034:]

OP has a slight point, a cheap character can be used so that they are not cheap, but how will that help you in any way? In tournament play, you play with money on the line, so you will do what's necessary to win, which means you go for the tactic that works the best. Some might call it cheap, but in what aspect? Your opponent could've picked a different character and done the same, which would make you both equally as cheap, so neither has a right to complain. It's only cheap when fighting against a character that has NOTHING.

For an instance, Snake VS Ganondorf is pretty much the example to use. Ganondorf has strength, average range, a mildly bad recovery and a couple of very fast moves. Plus he has some fairly good priority for not having disjointed hitboxes. Snake is all that only 'average range' becomes 'godlike range with disjointed hitboxes', 'mildly bad recovery' becomes 'fairly good with SA frames and you can attack after it', then detract lag and add knockback and weight and make him a bit smaller then slap some projectiles and mines on him. Even just USING Snake against Ganondorf could be considered cheap.

Maybe we shouldn't think about it as much and just ALL use Snake. That way nobody can ever be cheap anymore since we all use the same character and tactics and there will be no *****ing and complaining ever.

TL;DR version: No johns, use Snake.

 

[TheWii]

Listen!! There is no tiers! Only popular charachters!!

 

[Blue sHell]

Of course every single character could technically beat any other character. There is no character with 0 moves. But if a Metaknight has 12 different things he could do in any given moment and the Captain Falcon he's playing only could do about 2 things in the same exact position that Metaknight player has to be a total moron to not opputunize in that situation. And if a character has so many more safe options over another, there is a disadvantage.

For example, no amount of extra skill or popularity of Link will help him not be totally and disgustingly at a disadvantage over DDD when he is chaingrabbed to the ledge then grab-released then gimped. Now what does Link have on DDD that makes up for this horrible scenerio after getting grabbed just once? It sucks for the character but its impossible for everyone to be completely balanced.

“There are no cheap characters, only cheap players.”

If one of your character's options completely shuts down your opponent's game and is tons better than his/her options at almost any given moment, why wouldn't you use it? Pity?

Come on now...

Not saying in a Snake vs Jigglypuff matchup that Jiggs should get hit by every single ftilt and Uptilt that is thrown at her because that'd just be stupid on the Jiggs player's behalf. But I am saying that the Snake should know that those moves practically destroys Jiggs completely and should always be on his mind. Spam or not, its not cheap. Its annoying on the receiving end, but you got to be realistic before you call anything in this game "cheap" that isn't openly banned before the battle begins.

 

[Randofu]

“There are no low tier characters, only low tier players.”

False.

Proof by counterexample: Ganondorf.

 

[Mic_128]

Listen!! There is no tiers! Only popular charachters!!

Wrong. As long as a character is better than another, there will always be tiers. Afterall a tier list is roughly a list of best to worst character.

 

[DeletedGod]

Truth. Also, everyone else is wrong. He gets an A, the rest of you tier guys got an F for being wrong.

I do agree with Brawl. While some characters are stronger then they should be, overall, the cast is well balanced and no characters is useless (as much as this board disagrees).

Also, one problem with tournament Brawl is going to be that it was established before Brawl came out. With Melee, it started late, but since it did most people got a feel for the roster. Now, since smashboards exist, people will jump onto a character and train with just them and not focus on the other character, and since the other characters don't get played as in tournament, little is known about them. Basically, they are considered weaker then the other and shoved to the side.

In other words, the tier list for Brawl will never be correct since not every character is played as. Part of the reason you see very few characters played in tournaments despite a larger roster.

Go win a tournament with Captain Falcon. Then I will accept that the game is balanced.

 

[-Linko-]

“There are no low tier characters, only low tier players.”

False.

Proof by counterexample: Ganondorf.

Sliq disagrees: http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=KfLZlBpGTcQ

High tier player+ low tier character = Falcownage

 

[AgentJGV]

In melee the Teir set up basically said "These characters are good, and these ones are bad." No questions asked. For example, if pichu took on fox, fox will always win. In brawl, teirs exist but they dont determine who will win in a given situation. In Brawl, any character can be used well. It's up to the player to know how to use him.

I personally believe that the teir list basically show popullarity of a character and not his skill.

As to being cheap...no Johns.

 

[habaker91]

Whatever helps you sleep at night buddy.

^made me laugh

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Listen!! There is no tiers! Only popular charachters!!

Please shut up. You obviously have no clue what you're talking about.


Not to mention, Characters like Zelda, Pikachu, and Diddy Kong are regarded as High to Very High Tier by many, but they aren't all that popular at all.

Characters will not be perfectly balanced as Mic 128 Stated, there will ALWAYS be Tiers in the Fighting game genre as long as there is more than 1 character.

 

[Takeshi245]

That misleading rhetoric again, eh? Skill has nothing to do with how good a character is. The only way every character is going to have an equal chance at winning is if you make all the characters the same. Of course, that will never happen. Hence, characters will have different abilities that are going to be better than some. Take for example Pichu's abilities(worst in Melee) and Fox's abilities(best in Melee) or Ike's abilities (slightly below average) and Marth's abilities (great). Better characters perform better in tournaments than lesser characters because their attributes help the player's chances of winning. Of course, skill's going to be more of a determining factor. That's why if you're using a character that's worse than the character your opponent is using, you'll have to be a better player.