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Wobbling Discussion Revisited #Evo2kprep

Grim Tuesday

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I'm an IC's main from Australia and the state I live in is the only state its not banned in (god bless South Australia).
At one of my recent smash meetups I used wobbling on the TO, and he stated "wobbling is banned check the rules" I looked through the rules and was delighted to see there was no sight of any such rule. So eventually a poll was put up on the active Facebook page for the SA super smash players. The vote so far is put in the advantage of allowing Wobbling which I'm pleased with. We came to a conclusion that the technique may look boring or makes the game less fun, but banning it would give us plenty of ground to ban other techniques. It was even stated that if Wobbling was banned, we would have ground to ban certain match ups etc.
I'm the main "Melee guy" in SA and one of our TOs (not the one Shakyy mentioned of course, haha), and I brought up the discussion because we'll be running a Melee tournament at a very large convention in a few months time (this is for everyone else's reference, just to look at a perspective we don't really focus on in these discussions; alienating new players). Here's what I posted in our FB group:

I think it's good to keep it legal as a matter of principle. Banning something the moment it frustrates you, or makes the game "un-fun" really goes against the "No Johns" mentality that should be ingrained in every new player.

I can definitely see it drawing potential players away from competitive play, but I believe that the responsibility for nurturing our scene should fall onto the players, not the ruleset. The same argument could be made for egotistical behaviour in matches, foul language and basically anything (there is no doubt in my mind that there are casual players who would get frustrated for losing to a flashy, aggressive player - does that mean we should purposely lose when the situation calls for it?); yet we don't fall back on the ruleset to handle those things.

I like to think that everyone here is smart enough to balance competitive drive and general respect/courtesy on a case-by-case basis.
-------------------------

Before TOs can ban wobbling they have to come up with a proper definition. This isn't as trivial an issue as it seems. Let's see what you guys can come up with and I'll play devil's advocate.
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/what-is-a-wobbling-ban.299509/
 

Nintendude

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I read that whole thread when it was occurring and I'm pretty sure not a single TO gave a satisfactory definition. Looks like nobody here has attempted either.
 

Zhea

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I can't believe anyone actually wants to allow wobbling. As a tactic, it is just outright unnatural. If we allow wobbling, it is essentially a slap in the face to other characters who have legitimate grabs. The whole point of grabs is for people to throw afterwards. This is a fact of the game that cannot be ignored. People seem to forget that wobbling has been banned for so long because it's inherently immoral and wrong to permit. If we legalize wobbling, why not freeze glitching? By 2015 we would surely be having Master Hand dittos in GFs... It will just be a matter of time before the very fabric of our community is shred to pieces like a black hole tearing at the space-time continuum. We will all be doomed to the harsh chaos of the universe unless we can maintain our strength as a community. As a wise man once said, strength through unity, unity through faith.

#UnityRuleset2013
I don't think I have ever been disappointed by a bones post before. Evo making changes all around the world.
 

Tarv

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I personally see wobbling as just compensation for having to deal with nana and her bull****.

Oh and I'm not sure what people would think of this, but what does everyone think about the idea of turning pausing ON for IC matches so a person can pause and SD so that wobbling isn't a stall tactic but a kill tactic? At the same time, I have a hard time imagining any IC main wobbling without the intent of taking the stock. I mean that would eliminate the option of using Wobbling as a stall tactic but that seems like something people are trying shy away from anyways. Turning pause on would basically just give the opponent the option to cut out that wasted time between start of wobble and certain death. This would cutback or even eliminate the stalling problem of wobbling. If nothing else it would save time... yay for saving time? Just an idea, not really even sure I agree with it totally. Thoughts?
 

Jayk

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I don't know why you would want to pause out if it. IC players do mess up wobbling sometimes (not often, but it happens) and what is to stop them from just getting right back into it when you unpause?
 

Battlecow

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I like how everyone in the thread is pro-wobbling

who even wanted it banned the first place lol

Also, has anyone else noticed that Wobbles looks EXACTLY like Steve Nash? And Nash played for Phoenix forever, too.
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
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One guy at ASU just used to call me Steve Nash instead of learning my actual name. This lasted for about a year.
 

LLDL

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"smokin weed with hash, when I breeze past, im bout to run through the game like I was steve nash"

-Wobbles
 

Tarv

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I don't know why you would want to pause out if it. IC players do mess up wobbling sometimes (not often, but it happens) and what is to stop them from just getting right back into it when you unpause?

Well no one would be forcing you to pause and then SD, it's just putting that option on the table. Sure you watch whole phase and hope they mess up or try to mash out of it at early percentage, but if you're sitting there watching yourself get pummeled for 150% you can elect to end your own suffering through an SD. Really the options are sit there for and hope that he messes up or accept that this person already has you at 300% and you're going to die anyways. You do have a valid point though; there's still that chance that they would mess up even if they continue to wobble for an insane amount. The only reason I thought of this was because Mr. Wizard and some others were worried about time issues at EVO.

Thanks for responding though. Hooray discussions
 

Wobbles

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"smokin weed with hash, when I breeze past, im bout to run through the game like I was steve nash"

-Wobbles
I don't remember saying this. Guess it's all that weed with hash.

what the hell you are definitely dax shepard
Actually I don't feel like I look like either of these guys.

#offtopic

Honestly most people's problem with the IC infinite is that it doesn't feel like Melee. Even though Melee is defined by itself, and the infinite is, itself, in the game. It's a tiny subset of the game that isn't especially congruent with the rest of it. But nothing else is banned for "not feeling like Melee." Things are banned for being broken or leading to horribly degenerate strategies, or detracting from the competitiveness of the game.

Will I win with infinites legal more often than I won't? Yeah. Duh. I don't see how proving that I can without something so that I can be allowed to use it is relevant (particularly when, immediately afterwards, you would end up saying 'well why do you want it, apparently you don't even need it.") There's plenty of stuff that this exact statement could apply to; I would have a much tougher time winning as ICs if I couldn't wavedash. I would have difficulty playing Fox if I wasn't allowed to shine. Marth players who don't get to chaingrab Fox and Falco are less likely to win matches on FD. Does Puff win less when she doesn't get to rest? None of that addresses the REAL questions: 1) is it broken, 2) is it degenerate? Time and time again, the answer's clearly been "no." ICs don't get free passes to grand finals with it (because IDGAF what you say, everybody who watched me play at Kings of Cali knows I earned my 2nd place) unless everybody is a dunce at fighting ICs. They still have to work and play the neutral game unless their opponent utterly hands them the match.

Why did I write that everybody in the thread already agrees with me.
 

Bones0

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I don't remember saying this. Guess it's all that weed with hash.



Actually I don't feel like I look like either of these guys.

#offtopic

Honestly most people's problem with the IC infinite is that it doesn't feel like Melee. Even though Melee is defined by itself, and the infinite is, itself, in the game. It's a tiny subset of the game that isn't especially congruent with the rest of it. But nothing else is banned for "not feeling like Melee." Things are banned for being broken or leading to horribly degenerate strategies, or detracting from the competitiveness of the game.

Will I win with infinites legal more often than I won't? Yeah. Duh. I don't see how proving that I can without something so that I can be allowed to use it is relevant (particularly when, immediately afterwards, you would end up saying 'well why do you want it, apparently you don't even need it.") There's plenty of stuff that this exact statement could apply to; I would have a much tougher time winning as ICs if I couldn't wavedash. I would have difficulty playing Fox if I wasn't allowed to shine. Marth players who don't get to chaingrab Fox and Falco are less likely to win matches on FD. Does Puff win less when she doesn't get to rest? None of that addresses the REAL questions: 1) is it broken, 2) is it degenerate? Time and time again, the answer's clearly been "no." ICs don't get free passes to grand finals with it (because IDGAF what you say, everybody who watched me play at Kings of Cali knows I earned my 2nd place) unless everybody is a dunce at fighting ICs. They still have to work and play the neutral game unless their opponent utterly hands them the match.

Why did I write that everybody in the thread already agrees with me.
I was actually getting frustrated with you because you kept ending wobbles prematurely. Do you just always end them at ~115% out of habit or something, or were you somewhat self-conscious about what people were thinking during the wobble? I think Darrell even said on the commentary that he would just wobble people to 200% every time because he thinks it'd be hilarious. lol
 

Jockmaster

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I think it's funny how people go around claiming how broken things are (eg. wobbling, ledge camping), but the fact of the matter is that there is only one player for those respective things that do well in tournament with those techniques. If these things were even CLOSE to being questionable in the metagame, the problem would be much more pervasive. ICs are not dominating the metagame even with an infinite at their disposal...nobody ****ing uses ICs lol
 

Wobbles

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I was actually getting frustrated with you because you kept ending wobbles prematurely. Do you just always end them at ~115% out of habit or something, or were you somewhat self-conscious about what people were thinking during the wobble? I think Darrell even said on the commentary that he would just wobble people to 200% every time because he thinks it'd be hilarious. lol
I was mostly psyching myself out because I'd been screwing them up a lot. So if I thought the opponent wasn't DI'ing, or if I thought "they MIGHT die," I ended it early to keep myself from letting them out... even though sometimes the result was the same. Tourney pressure can be a jerk.
 

rawrimamonster

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I was mostly psyching myself out because I'd been screwing them up a lot. So if I thought the opponent wasn't DI'ing, or if I thought "they MIGHT die," I ended it early to keep myself from letting them out... even though sometimes the result was the same. Tourney pressure can be a jerk.
You seem to be a very emotional player dude, I think if you ever got the **** in check you'd consistently place great at large events like apex.
 

Mr.Jackpot

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Should there be a set percentage cap on wobbling? I know going up to 999% is considered "stalling" but it still seems like a fuzzy line.

As someone who is in favor of Wobbling being legal, just want to point out that infinites have always been apart of the Marvel series, long before 3...or even 2.


In MvC2 rushdown is reset based, nobody really ToD's except for Iron Man. Every other Marvel/VS game before that isn't considered competitively good at top level. That being said, MvC3 is full of low resource/execution ToD's from almost any hit confirm anyways, so relatively high execution low reward combos aren't really comparable to wobbling.
 

Wobbles

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Emotionally I was totally fine (better than I ever have been, probably). I just hesitated because my infinite wasn't 100%. It's easier to mess up than people think, which is why I was surprised when Westballz quit before our match was over. I'll just have to practice it more so I can rely on it to ~160% when an f-smash will KO just about anybody.

Also no cap would mean endless stalling. Getting one grab and winning a full game off that would be pretty silly.
 

Construct

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Emotionally I was totally fine (better than I ever have been, probably). I just hesitated because my infinite wasn't 100%. It's easier to mess up than people think, which is why I was surprised when Westballz quit before our match was over. I'll just have to practice it more so I can rely on it to ~160% when an f-smash will KO just about anybody.

Also no cap would mean endless stalling. Getting one grab and winning a full game off that would be pretty silly.
Wobbles, how did you feel about Sung(?) pausing the game during a wobble and walking off the map? In general?
 

Wretched

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Truely, I think the issue lies in the fact that wobbling is something that completely removes the participation of one of the players. If there is physically nothing you can do. Even with action replay, there would be no way to break out of the grab. The best player in the world could get grabbed once, and all of his skill would become irrelevant for that stock. I definitely think a pro-ban argument could be that since wobbling removes the players ability to influence the outcome of a stock, it should be banned.

We could say that one of the most wonderful and dynamic things about Melee is your ability to get out of combos. Against Fox, you can often DI down and get a tech while you're getting combo'd. With every single move that fox hits you with, afaik even shine, you have a choice, and if you make the right choice, you are rewarded and it is reset to the neutral position. If someone is wobbling correctly, there is no way to influence the outcome of that stock. If grabbed at a low percent and then potentially regrabbed, there is nothing... It seems the only option to get out of wobbling is to physically punch wobbles.

I don't necessarily agree with this, and I'm for legal wobbling, but I just wanted to touch on that as a potential point, if it hasn't been said before.

With such a complex issue, I think there is a way to appease everyone.
Wobbling obviously makes Ice Climbers a more competitively viable character, so that's why I'd be for keeping it, but I also like the idea of limitations on this. I've been looking over some of the proposed solutions, but some of them seem a bit too arbitrary and easy to break. So, maybe propose something such as "A player may keep a character in hitstun during a grab up to ~70%~, but if the character is above ~70%~ and a player performs more than 4 attacks including pummels during the grab, that player will receive a warning." So basically, it says that you can pummel and jab to get damage still, but you can't wobble them to kill percent.

I know the melee community and most communities have always been hesitant to have such an obscure, arbitrary, and specific rule, but I think the concept of not being able to get a KILL with wobbling and the player having control over his character at critical kill percents sorta resolves the issue.

The lack of control is why players get frustrated and throw stuff and quit.
 

chenjesu

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wobbling should be legal up to 300%.

gonna define wobbling as getting over 7 jab hits in a row with alternating climbers.
 

Zhea

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Truely, I think the issue lies in the fact that wobbling is something that completely removes the participation of one of the players. If there is physically nothing you can do. Even with action replay, there would be no way to break out of the grab. The best player in the world could get grabbed once, and all of his skill would become irrelevant for that stock. I definitely think a pro-ban argument could be that since wobbling removes the players ability to influence the outcome of a stock, it should be banned.

We could say that one of the most wonderful and dynamic things about Melee is your ability to get out of combos. Against Fox, you can often DI down and get a tech while you're getting combo'd. With every single move that fox hits you with, afaik even shine, you have a choice, and if you make the right choice, you are rewarded and it is reset to the neutral position. If someone is wobbling correctly, there is no way to influence the outcome of that stock. If grabbed at a low percent and then potentially regrabbed, there is nothing... It seems the only option to get out of wobbling is to physically punch wobbles.

I don't necessarily agree with this, and I'm for legal wobbling, but I just wanted to touch on that as a potential point, if it hasn't been said before.

With such a complex issue, I think there is a way to appease everyone.
Wobbling obviously makes Ice Climbers a more competitively viable character, so that's why I'd be for keeping it, but I also like the idea of limitations on this. I've been looking over some of the proposed solutions, but some of them seem a bit too arbitrary and easy to break. So, maybe propose something such as "A player may keep a character in hitstun during a grab up to ~70%~, but if the character is above ~70%~ and a player performs more than 4 attacks including pummels during the grab, that player will receive a warning." So basically, it says that you can pummel and jab to get damage still, but you can't wobble them to kill percent.

I know the melee community and most communities have always been hesitant to have such an obscure, arbitrary, and specific rule, but I think the concept of not being able to get a KILL with wobbling and the player having control over his character at critical kill percents sorta resolves the issue.

The lack of control is why players get frustrated and throw stuff and quit.
Except, there are plenty of combos where if the 1st hit connects, the result is death. There are plenty of combos where no matter how you di, as long as your opponent has decent reactions or understands your options well enough, you can not get out of it. There are plenty of situations where if you make a mistake, you are dead, regardless of what you do next. So you have the illusion of control, you can pick which way you roll and flail, but you are still dead at the end of the day. But, hey at least it looked cool.

To quote wobble's "If you're a falco underneath the stage without your double jump, you're dead, and the only thing that keeps you alive is the other guy being bad at smash".

Also, you can shake out of it at earlier percents. It is not a true 0 to death. Most people just don't shake out, because most characters don't have that kind of punish for it. It's punishing a foo strategy to the fullest extent. Example: Shroomed sat there at close to 0% and just let wobbles have a 0 to death. That's like a fox putting down his controller and letting a Marth have his chain grab 0 to death on him.

The only difference here? Instead of watching you pay for your mistake over the course of a 4 hit death combo, you get to sit there and drink it in for a good 20 seconds. That is demoralizing, but hey, there are a lot of things in this game that are demoralizing.
 

Wretched

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Except, there are plenty of combos where if the 1st hit connects, the result is death. There are plenty of combos where no matter how you di, as long as your opponent has decent reactions or understands your options well enough, you can not get out of it. There are plenty of situations where if you make a mistake, you are dead, regardless of what you do next. So you have the illusion of control, you can pick which way you roll and flail, but you are still dead at the end of the day. But, hey at least it looked cool.

You know everyone is human, and you're putting people to a higher standard than we're capable of. With smart DI, you can and do get out of combos often, even at the highest level. Sure, a grab from marth can lead to zero to death, but it doesn't. SOMETIMES the players make the right predictions, space correctly, and finish combos with death, but its unrealistic to put the game, even at the highest level, to a standard where you claim that because a stomp from falcon can lead to death with the best predictions, it always will. Maybe in certain scenarios, players can cover many or all options, but those are few and far from the number of encounters where a player has influence over the outcome of a conflict. Whereas we can look at ICs. At little to no percent, Ice Climbers with a single grab virtually guarantees, so long as you wobble correctly, that you will achieve a kill, and the other character has zero influence over this.

If we look at every other matchup that isn't sheik vs. non-axe pikachu, you know that at low percents, with smart play, you're promised control to a certain extent over how you're being combo'd, how long you get combo'd, and what moves your opponent has to use in order to continue the combo. Furthermore, you're given many opportunities to reset to the neutral position. We know that competitive play, assuming players are evenly matched, is not a combo contest. It isn't who can get the first hit because it will lead into death. A single hit or grab confirmed even with the best human reflexes doesn't mean that it will lead into death.

To quote wobble's "If you're a falco underneath the stage without your double jump, you're dead, and the only thing that keeps you alive is the other guy being bad at smash".
Yes. Situations where a falco is off the stage without a double jump, usually at high percents or lower percents if a gimp is happening, can be dire. That's true. I don't know what you intended to say, but maybe a better example would be if Marth, with a single grab, could throw any character off the stage from anywhere on the stage and treat them like a falco without a double jump. Its a dire situation, yes. You don't have much control. So why would we let marth have a throw that would guarantee a kill on any character so long as you don't **** up?

Also, you can shake out of it at earlier percents. It is not a true 0 to death. Most people just don't shake out, because most characters don't have that kind of punish for it. It's punishing a foo strategy to the fullest extent. Example: Shroomed sat there at close to 0% and just let wobbles have a 0 to death. That's like a fox putting down his controller and letting a Marth have his chain grab 0 to death on him.
If you're at 5% and you get grabbed by ICs, immediately pummeled after, and then ftilted, you're locked in hitstun. Yes, you can escape after the first pummel because you're at such a low percent, but this isn't candyland where every player instantly spins the sticks (best way to mash) to get out of grabs as soon as they happen. Wobbles gets the grabs at low percents and has thus far demonstrated that getting out of it isn't really an option.

The only difference here? Instead of watching you pay for your mistake over the course of a 4 hit death combo, you get to sit there and drink it in for a good 20 seconds. That is demoralizing, but hey, there are a lot of things in this game that are demoralizing.
Responses in Bold.
 

Zhea

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The thing about being human and not executing perfectly? Still applies to Wobbling and wobbling correctly for a good 150 - 200%. So wobbling has the same weakness of most 0 - death combos in that the player must execute it perfectly. Also Nana has to already be there which really limits the amount of legit inescapable Wobble scenarios. I think a lot of people trivialize wobbling as just a grab when a lot of factors come into play to set this up.
 

Armada

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I do not feel for going through all the posts but I have been reading and heard people discuss this topic TONS of times. So far I have never heard a single good argument for why Wobbling should be banned.

I can agree with seeing someone wobble another guy is not "fun". But fun is something that is super subjective and is just a opinion based on personal preference. Wobbling itself do not make ICs broken or even close to it so WHY do we even have this discussion in 2013?

Easier to preform wobbling consistently then other 0-deaths?
I can agree with that but should be ban everything someone, after personal preference, see as boring/easy we will end up never even touch this game again. I think most people that support this ban have been getting grabbed a few times to much and instead of finding ways around it they wanna have it banned instead.
 

Wretched

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The thing about being human and not executing perfectly? Still applies to Wobbling and wobbling correctly for a good 150 - 200%. So wobbling has the same weakness of most 0 - death combos in that the player must execute it perfectly. Also Nana has to already be there which really limits the amount of legit inescapable Wobble scenarios. I think a lot of people trivialize wobbling as just a grab when a lot of factors come into play to set this up.
I can agree with you on that. I'm not for a ban at all but the entire point is to look at the fact that in the end, when wobbling is set up, which it isn't as bad as you make it seem, it is pretty much guaranteed. Even strongbad can do it once the grab is confirmed. The timing is repetitive and is not technically demanding, but that's besides the point. Getting the grab is another story and in the end, their ability to get the grab ultimately makes me think a ban isn't necessary. I just wanted to touch on the point of a lack of control, like I said before. I never said anything about easier and I said I didn't want a ban. That wasn't my original point. I don't think the ease of a 0-death should be relevant to its regulation.
 

RockinRudy

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I do not feel for going through all the posts but I have been reading and heard people discuss this topic TONS of times. So far I have never heard a single good argument for why Wobbling should be banned.

I can agree with seeing someone wobble another guy is not "fun". But fun is something that is super subjective and is just a opinion based on personal preference. Wobbling itself do not make ICs broken or even close to it so WHY do we even have this discussion in 2013?

Easier to preform wobbling consistently then other 0-deaths?
I can agree with that but should be ban everything someone, after personal preference, see as boring/easy we will end up never even touch this game again. I think most people that support this ban have been getting grabbed a few times to much and instead of finding ways around it they wanna have it banned instead.
Never Wobbled before, so on a friendly night I picked the Ice Climbers. I picked 2 stocks off 1 guy with massive ease.
Remind you.
This was the first time I ever Wobbled and I successfully pulled it off. Twice, I now think it should stay banned as well.
It does NOT make the IC broken, they have their own tier for a reason. It's a boring skill that will annoy players to no end.
If it comes back I will support it because it is a skill with the Ice Climbers in a competitive scene.
If not.
Not a big deal.
 

Armada

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off 1 guy?
I don't wanna sound harsh but how good is this person anyway?

You will notice that if you play against a very good player (and with a good ammunt of ICs practice) it is VERY hard getting those grabs in the first place. I can agree with wobbling becoming a much huger part of the game the lower the level is. Because on lower level the peoples punish game is not that strong so wobbling on that level is a super strong tool.

But in the end of the day competitions is about finding out who the best players are. On a higher level it becomes harder and harder to get the grab. That means it takes much more skill (getting the grab) and will not happen as often because the players know how to avoid the grab.

"Boring skill"?
Should everyone have their own opinion and ban stuff after what they feel are boring?
I know TONS of players that complain Falco is boring as hell so I guess he is banned.

Puff has been hated since the begining of this game. Peach/Samus is also boring for most people. Other people think Falcon is boring. As you hopefully can see everyone have a personal preference. I agree with more people agree with wobbling being boring the Falco but do you think we should vote about it and if you have more then 50% that agrees we ban it?

The question might sound very stupid but your arguments so far don't give me much else to go on.
 

KrIsP!

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People say its boring and I used to think so. But as a spectator, watching wobbles get a grab with nana on the other side of the stage and stall with dthrow regrab into dthrow nana dair regrab and then begin wobbling was awesome. More tha that, watching him wobble fly and having the jabs keep knocking his nana offstage while she kept running back until fly finally saw when she was in range and did a dashing grab with her on wobbles....that was hype.

My only real issue with wobbling is if someone wanted to use it against new players to stall them out. When wobbles uses it to take a stock it's pretty damn hype. Do I like seeing crazy handoffs more? Yeah, I love watching fly play but I don't dislike watching wobbles and I'd like to see how far he can get at evo, I'm especially glad he doesn't like the idea of stalling (infinite stalling is banned anyways which I would assume refers to wobbling) Just my thoughts on how boring it is to watch.
 

EpixAura

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I can understand wobbling being banned at small scale tournaments in areas lacking pro-level players and/or 'non-competitive' tournaments, as it makes IC's pretty much god tier against inexperienced players, even if the players are of the same caliber.
However, wobbling in tournaments of anything close to this level should definitely be allowed.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
I disagree. Wobbling allowed at nationals but banned at locals defeats the purpose of learning the complicated grab follow trees and the tight inputs for ICs' punishment game as a developing player. Why bother learning this crap if it's all going to be obsoleted by something that's basically strictly superior? Moreover, you're not preparing them for the field that they're going to have to face, which can only be detrimental to their development.

I think we should just ban the technique since it does lead to degenerate gameplay, just not at high level. And even with that said, I feel it slants the focus of what people need to be good at by placing a huge premium on technical perfection because of the nature of the technique. No other technique auto-deaths you in the game as reliably as wobbling from a single error. I say, "single", because the technique is non-interactive once the opening is procured, which removes a huge aspect of the defensive game. Even when Armada hits a Falco with dash attack, Falco actually has a lot of options to escape the ensuing ****. He might die anyway, but he's given a lot of opportunities to play around Armada's combo decisions through DI and interacting with the stage with the trajectories he's ultimately dealt. This is huge and adds tons of depth to Melee. Wobbling does the opposite in that once it hits, provided the IC doesn't mess up, you're dead and you had no say in it.

I don't feel the persistence of a technique like this is healthy for the game because of how far and away it is from the rest of the game and how it adds so little. In fact, wobbling actually takes away from the game by hyper simplifying their grab game because everything winds up revolving around setting up a wobble if Nana is alive and within some semblance of being synced or going to be synced shortly. I feel this detracts from and further polarizes the stage positioning games that occur in matchups against ICs.

I feel that ultimately wobbling takes more away from the game than it gives it. That said, I also understand it's a pain to ban because it's not very well-defined and so forth. So we'd need to define it, decide on some semantics regarding other infinites they can do (blobbling or whatever the blizzard version is), and decide on what course of action should be taken.

On a side note, I find it ridiculous that people want a new tier list when we haven't decided whether or not ICs' best grab combo (and the best punish in the game by far) should be legal as the norm. These kinds of things matter a lot. They change whole matchups. And stuff.

My two cents.
 
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