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Wobbling Discussion Revisited #Evo2kprep

RockinRudy

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off 1 guy?
I don't wanna sound harsh but how good is this person anyway?

You will notice that if you play against a very good player (and with a good ammunt of ICs practice) it is VERY hard getting those grabs in the first place. I can agree with wobbling becoming a much huger part of the game the lower the level is. Because on lower level the peoples punish game is not that strong so wobbling on that level is a super strong tool.

But in the end of the day competitions is about finding out who the best players are. On a higher level it becomes harder and harder to get the grab. That means it takes much more skill (getting the grab) and will not happen as often because the players know how to avoid the grab.

"Boring skill"?
Should everyone have their own opinion and ban stuff after what they feel are boring?
I know TONS of players that complain Falco is boring as hell so I guess he is banned.

Puff has been hated since the begining of this game. Peach/Samus is also boring for most people. Other people think Falcon is boring. As you hopefully can see everyone have a personal preference. I agree with more people agree with wobbling being boring the Falco but do you think we should vote about it and if you have more then 50% that agrees we ban it?

The question might sound very stupid but your arguments so far don't give me much else to go on.
A Very Good Falco, Thing is once the wobble is started you can't get out of it hence the technique.
People do **** up no one is perfect.
Sitting in one spot doing a simple move that looks very cheap is boring to MOST people (tournaments want hype, not boring), which would stray away from the game or make them want to quit. I'm not saying it is myself. I personally wouldn't care if it happened to me.
It's banned for a reason. Sure competitive players would have a mindset in the back of their mind saying "Wobbling is legal now bro" and would try to avoid it.
Like I said. I don't care if it comes back. If you get grabbed by them your done. We have to change our strategy while playing when wobbling is legal.
Though I would hate to see new players pick up IC because of wobbling.
 

I R MarF

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I agree with KK, Wobbling contributes little to this game.

As a fan of Melee's competitive scene, nothing seems more embarassing than all the new viewers at Evo seeing someone get Wobbled and the comentator fumbling with an explanation.

And to those who cite other competitive games with infinites as a defense for Wobbling, I direct you to our timer, stock, item, and stage rules. Our community is used to formulating its own system of creating an ideal competitive environment, the FGC is primarily used to game developers handling that part for them.
 

Kink-Link5

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A Very Good Falco, Thing is once the wobble is started you can't get out of it hence the technique.
People do **** up no one is perfect.
Sitting in one spot doing a simple move that looks very cheap is boring to MOST people (tournaments want hype, not boring), which would stray away from the game or make them want to quit. I'm not saying it is myself. I personally wouldn't care if it happened to me.
It's banned for a reason. Sure competitive players would have a mindset in the back of their mind saying "Wobbling is legal now bro" and would try to avoid it.
Like I said. I don't care if it comes back. If you get grabbed by them your done. We have to change our strategy while playing when wobbling is legal.
Though I would hate to see new players pick up IC because of wobbling.
Sorry to be that guy, but tournaments don't give two ****s if something is boring or not. Besides the fact that wobbling got super hype reactions from the crowd the last time Melee was at Evo.
 

KrIsP!

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I agree with KK, Wobbling contributes little to this game.

As a fan of Melee's competitive scene, nothing seems more embarassing than all the new viewers at Evo seeing someone get Wobbled and the comentator fumbling with an explanation.
KK made a good argument but saying it will embarrass us in front of the FGC isn't one. It's legal at evo because prominent people in the FGC decided it was something they wanted legal. Infinite stalling is banned however, so they won't be witnessing it for 8 minutes straight. I think the spectator should be taken out of this equation completely, you don't like seeing it but like I said, I don't mind watching it and I feel like evo viewers would enjoy it as well. Does that mean it should be legal because I enjoyed watching wobbles do it to fly? No, I'm not that entitled and I hardly think the commentators will have any trouble saying they're locked in a grab and explaining the moves used. It's not that complicated.
 

I R MarF

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I don't mind seeing it, its more that I don't like the impression it might give to those unexposed to Melee. However, if it being legal is a decision made by Evo TOs.... then there is no use trying to change that.
 

Armada

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Kirbykaze: With so "many" chars being played in top level melee today I would not really say wobbling makes the game lead to a degenerate gameplay. Of course, osme points you take up are solid arguments because once you are stuck you are dead without being able to do anything (DI etc).

If the entire game was build around a punish game simillar to wobbling I would most likely not play it. But we all do have different taste and as we can see ICs are not even that popular and the game is build up around a more "traditional" punish game (standard melee punishment if you understand what I mean).

I do think, and hope, that a technique like Wobbling actually will lead to people becoming even better as players. That's not a real argument of mine for keeping it allowed more that I see the results of Wobbling being allowed can lead to people actually improving "don't get grab". Which we easily can apply to other parts of smash. Being more and more perfect is relevant in smash. This game has been something people have been competing in for such a long time and when only one char have wobbling or something even simillar to it I don't think it removes so much from the game.

For me it's not a question, wobbling should be allowed according to me!
 

Max?

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After watching all the KoC vids, I don't see how anyone can justify wobbling being legal. KK got it right
 

Juggleguy

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I've always been in favor of the wobbling ban, but I'm not going to explain why for the 10th time because doing so on Smashboards accomplishes next to nothing to be quite honest; people tend to have tunnel vision when it comes to this debate in particular, and KirbyKaze has already made a good argument that sums up some of my thoughts better than I could have. The only thing I'd like to add is there's a difference between someone who thinks wobbling is gamebreaking and someone who thinks wobbling should be banned. I hope people aren't confusing the two. When it comes down to it, TOs must consider the overall tourney experience of attendees when deciding on rulesets, and they are well within their right to ban wobbling no matter how anal you want to be about the definition of the technique. Don't like it, don't come.
 

KirbyKaze

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I would also like to remind everyone that we have banned a lot of stuff not because it was or is game breaking or overpowering but rather because it didn't fit subjective criteria that we decided tested skill within this game in its purest form. We got rid of Rainbow Cruise, for instance, largely because of how much the stage's design (side-scrolling level that runs along a track) affected the positional games of characters. Suddenly, the level obligates you to move with a certain bias or else it kills you, no interaction with the opponent necessary. Brinstar was removed for a similar reason. These levels (and many others) were deemed unfit for competitive play overall because they took away options from the players and polarized gameplay. It was not simply because space animals or floaties were good there.

I do not see how wobbling is really that different. It removes the fundamental defensive option that almost defines Melee, and disregards a huge amount of Melee's skillset normally available to the defending player. It polarizes the game around not getting grabbed and makes technical perfection leading up to the grab attempt by far the most important trait someone can have in this game. Moreover, it allows no room for positioning to circumvent damage like with many conventional grab combos.

I might have this all wrong, but I feel if we remove stages that aren't broken because they don't fit the mold for competitive Melee, then I'm not sure why this technique should be treated differently.
 

Bones0

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I disagree. Wobbling allowed at nationals but banned at locals defeats the purpose of learning the complicated grab follow trees and the tight inputs for ICs' punishment game as a developing player. Why bother learning this crap if it's all going to be obsoleted by something that's basically strictly superior? Moreover, you're not preparing them for the field that they're going to have to face, which can only be detrimental to their development.

I think we should just ban the technique since it does lead to degenerate gameplay, just not at high level. And even with that said, I feel it slants the focus of what people need to be good at by placing a huge premium on technical perfection because of the nature of the technique. No other technique auto-deaths you in the game as reliably as wobbling from a single error. I say, "single", because the technique is non-interactive once the opening is procured, which removes a huge aspect of the defensive game. Even when Armada hits a Falco with dash attack, Falco actually has a lot of options to escape the ensuing ****. He might die anyway, but he's given a lot of opportunities to play around Armada's combo decisions through DI and interacting with the stage with the trajectories he's ultimately dealt. This is huge and adds tons of depth to Melee. Wobbling does the opposite in that once it hits, provided the IC doesn't mess up, you're dead and you had no say in it.

I don't feel the persistence of a technique like this is healthy for the game because of how far and away it is from the rest of the game and how it adds so little. In fact, wobbling actually takes away from the game by hyper simplifying their grab game because everything winds up revolving around setting up a wobble if Nana is alive and within some semblance of being synced or going to be synced shortly. I feel this detracts from and further polarizes the stage positioning games that occur in matchups against ICs.

I feel that ultimately wobbling takes more away from the game than it gives it. That said, I also understand it's a pain to ban because it's not very well-defined and so forth. So we'd need to define it, decide on some semantics regarding other infinites they can do (blobbling or whatever the blizzard version is), and decide on what course of action should be taken.

On a side note, I find it ridiculous that people want a new tier list when we haven't decided whether or not ICs' best grab combo (and the best punish in the game by far) should be legal as the norm. These kinds of things matter a lot. They change whole matchups. And stuff.

My two cents.

I'll be honest, I find your concern with emphasizing technical perfection a bit hypocritical. You accuse wobbling for making players focus heavily on not missing L-cancels because if they get grabbed, they will probably die. In the very first paragraph, however, you mention that when wobbling is banned, players are required to execute complicated "grab follow trees" and "tight inputs". Surely you can agree that wobbling being banned puts much more focus on technical perfection, not just for ICs mains performing handoffs and dthrow-dair CGs, but for players trying to SDI out of dthrow-dair CGs. Strangely enough, I usually hear people argue wobbling should be banned because they WANT to increase the technical requirements for a KO. Most people think that as long as something is technically difficult, it balances out how strategically difficult it may be. Whether you agree with that or not, I think everyone can agree that we should not go around banning stuff solely because it is powerful unless it becomes an overcentralizing aspect of the game. Doing so would surely make us no different than the traditional school yard scrub who calls a good move "cheap" and cries whenever someone uses it against him.

Your other main point is about interaction between players. You say that during combos, players are able to interact, and this is a key part of what makes Melee's skill gap so huge. I don't think anyone could possibly disagree that constant interaction is a great aspect of Melee, but what actually qualifies as interacting? I think most people would define it as being able to influence the game so that there are multiple scenarios of any given situation. Ness's bthrow may be guaranteed to kill at certain percents, but the opponent is able to influence what trajectory he will take to his death. What about if the opponent is at a high enough percent that Ness can pummel 3-4 guaranteed, and he needs the extra percent to guarantee the KO? Let's consider this tactic Nobbling (because LOL). Once the opponent's at a certain point, Nobbling is a guaranteed kill, and the opponent is completely helpless. Is the opponent still interacting? No one in their right mind would suggest banning characters from pummeling at high percents where it's impossible to mash out, especially poor little Ness, whose grab range is smaller than [insert dirty joke here]. The only difference between Wobbling and Nobbling is (besides a \) that the ICs can pummel indefinitely without the opponent interacting whereas Ness can only pummel for a few seconds before executing the actual KO portion of the tactic. You may say that this difference in time means everything, but what if Sakurai went mad before releasing the game and decided to make ICs' second pummel do 100% as long as Nana was synced. As you can imagine, ICs wouldn't play any differently in this imaginary version than they would with wobbling legal in the real version. ICs would still get a guaranteed kill off of synced grabs as long as the opponent was at a high enough percent that they couldn't mash out before the second pummel.

The point of this theoretical version is to prove the point that the interactivity of wobbling is viewed differently solely because of how long it lasts and how boring it looks. People see robotic repetition that is impossible to escape and immediately consider it undesirable even compared to an alternative where the result is the same but it happens swiftly instead of sluggishly. If ICs did a simple two pummel-fsmash to finish off stocks, people would still consider it ruthless, but they would just say, "damn, ICs have a really good pummel." No one would view it as some sort of individual tactic that can be banned or legalized like wobbling. Conversely, if you made it so when Falcon kneed someone the game froze and the Falcon player had to tap A 30 times before the game resumed and the knee killed you, people would complain that during all that time they were unable to interact with the game (or they'd scream their heads off with hype 'cause it's Falcon, but you get the idea).

It's easy to look at wobbling and say it limits interaction, but when you start to view ICs' grab as an actual KO move like Falcon's knee or Marth's tipper fsmash, suddenly banning it doesn't make much sense. Criticizing the inability to interact with a wobble is just as absurd as criticizing the inability to interact with an off-stage knee. They both kill you, and you need to just accept that your chance to avoid getting killed by it was a split-second ago when you got knocked down and tech chased by synced ICs or DIed Falcon's dthrow into a dropzone.



I would also like to remind everyone that we have banned a lot of stuff not because it was or is game breaking or overpowering but rather because it didn't fit subjective criteria that we decided tested skill within this game in its purest form. We got rid of Rainbow Cruise, for instance, largely because of how much the stage's design (side-scrolling level that runs along a track) affected the positional games of characters. Suddenly, the level obligates you to move with a certain bias or else it kills you, no interaction with the opponent necessary. Brinstar was removed for a similar reason. These levels (and many others) were deemed unfit for competitive play overall because they took away options from the players and polarized gameplay. It was not simply because space animals or floaties were good there.

I do not see how wobbling is really that different. It removes the fundamental defensive option that almost defines Melee, and disregards a huge amount of Melee's skillset normally available to the defending player. It polarizes the game around not getting grabbed and makes technical perfection leading up to the grab attempt by far the most important trait someone can have in this game. Moreover, it allows no room for positioning to circumvent damage like with many conventional grab combos.

I might have this all wrong, but I feel if we remove stages that aren't broken because they don't fit the mold for competitive Melee, then I'm not sure why this technique should be treated differently.

Choosing which stages do the best job of determining a certain skillset is a lot different than choosing which tactics are allowed for the same purpose. It's along the same lines of the people that argue we should ban Luigi's misfire or Peach's turnips if we ban stages for randomness. I'm sure if you thought about your comparison you'd realize how they are not the same at all. Characters and the tactics they use are at the very core of the game, whereas stages are essentially the lens through which we view them. If you need a more concrete justification for making such a distinction, I think the fact that the game lets you disable certain stages but not certain characters, moves, or tactics should count for something.
 

I R MarF

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Anyone else think its a huge stretch to compare Wobbling to other kill moves?

I suppose you could compare Rest to it in terms of kill power, but going for a Rest is far riskier and more situational than going for a grab.
 

Bones0

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Anyone else think its a huge stretch to compare Wobbling to other kill moves?

I suppose you could compare Rest to it in terms of kill power, but going for a Rest is far riskier and more situational than going for a grab.
I was only comparing them in terms of interactivity, not power. My first paragraph was targeted at how banning wobbling because of difficulty or strength is dumb, and the rest is targeted at why banning wobbling because of interactivity is dumb. Obviously a knee or rest will not be as powerful as a wobble, but there's always going to be a most powerful tactic, so as long as it isn't overcentralizing, there's no real justification in banning it.
 

Strong Badam

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David, you know full well that we use completely different criteria for items/stages than we do for characters or aspects of characters. We'd have banned Falco and Jigglypuff years ago if we didn't.
 

RockinRudy

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Sorry to be that guy, but tournaments don't give two ****s if something is boring or not. Besides the fact that wobbling got super hype reactions from the crowd the last time Melee was at Evo.
I seen wobbles do it in teams. It was all the sudden and he did it for one stock. To me that's pretty hype but on a 1v1 not really :p.
 

I R MarF

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David, you know full well that we use completely different criteria for items/stages than we do for characters or aspects of characters. We'd have banned Falco and Jigglypuff years ago if we didn't.
Are the reasons all that different?

Certain stages are banned because they give certain characters abusable tactics. A stage with walls being banned because Fox is able to shine infinite is no different than banning wobbling.
 

Bones0

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Are the reasons all that different?

Certain stages are banned because they give certain characters abusable tactics. A stage with walls being banned because Fox is able to shine infinite is no different than banning wobbling.
There's a lot of other things wrong with the stages that have walls other than allowing Fox to drill-shine people.
 

mixa

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is there a thread somewhere talking about all that is wrong with the stages / why the stages are banned? y'know, organized and summed up information.
 

Grim Tuesday

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I think Rest is the best thing we can compare Wobbling to, to be honest. They both instant KO off a small mistake, the only difference is duration, so someone needs to come up with an argument as to why the duration is a problem.
 

I R MarF

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There's a lot of other things wrong with the stages that have walls other than allowing Fox to drill-shine people.
Banning Corneria because of Fox's infinite makes more sense than banning it for the occasional arwing

I think Rest is the best thing we can compare Wobbling to, to be honest. They both instant KO off a small mistake, the only difference is duration, so someone needs to come up with an argument as to why the duration is a problem.
I think you are oversimplifying it, there are many differences. If there are any similiarities its in kill power, but the threat of being rested is not nearly as present as the the threat of being grabbed in the respective MUs.
 

The Business

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I think Rest is the best thing we can compare Wobbling to, to be honest. They both instant KO off a small mistake, the only difference is duration, so someone needs to come up with an argument as to why the duration is a problem.
Off a grab, puff can rest 2 characters in the entire game if they don't DI properly. Off a grab, ICs can infinite every character in the game regardless of what the grabbed person does. Rest and wobbling aren't comparable at all. Also, any small mistake where you can get rested, you can probably get grabbed as well.
 

Strong Badam

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Are the reasons all that different?

Certain stages are banned because they give certain characters abusable tactics. A stage with walls being banned because Fox is able to shine infinite is no different than banning wobbling.
A stage with walls allows a lot more abuse than a simple infinite from one character that doesn't even work on the entirety of the cast and that much should be obvious. It affects every single match-up; camping the wall for techs at high % changes the game in an agreeably negative way. In short, if Fox weren't in the game, the stages would still be banned.
and your ignorance is showing pretty clearly in your past post. He can't even infinite on Corneria, the land isn't flat so the opponent goes into the ~9 frame stun landing animation instead of the regular, comboable stun from a shine.
 

Warhawk

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After watching all the KoC vids, I don't see how anyone can justify wobbling being legal. KK got it right
How did KoC2 make wobbling out to be catastophically damaging to the game at all? Because two ICs were in the top 5? I think that has more to do with there actually being two ICs present at a tournament than wobbling being legal. One hundred percent believe wobbles deserved his placement and don't believe wobbling is the reason he got it. Most of the wobble kills he got that I saw seemed to be off of handoffs or in situations where he could handoff anyways so either way they probably would have been dead.
 

WestBallz

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Wobbling is whack. Takes 0 skill to grab someone with ic's and press A with a rhythm. I bet everyone who is for it has never played a whack as icies so they don't know how extremely gay that is. Also armada saying dont get grabbed is a bunch of bs u play peach dude. Hella easy to not get grabbed when ur floating 99% of the time.
 

phish-it

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KK brings up good points. I don't think anyone believes the game would be any worse if wobbling never existed. I may have been 'supportive' of it because it doesn't break the game, make Ice Climbers unbeatable, or even influence their tournament performance for the most part. At the same time though it contrasts the interactivity of smash and turns the match into a single player game for the Ice Climber player. I agree that it does degenerate gameplay as it obsoletes the multiple other chainthrow options Ice Climbers possess, and can turn the tide of a match in an instant.

So... it buffs a decent but underplayed character, but not to the point where they are top tier or played anymore for that matter. Should we allow something that people don't enjoy which polarizes gameplay? Should we ban something that isn't gamebreaking just because we don't like it? This is why after so many years we don't have a unanimous decision on the topic.
 

Jockmaster

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Holy **** you guys have no idea how to go about banning things in a metagame

You do NOT ban things because "well, nobody would NOT like the game without X".

You only ban things when there is a reason to ban them, and you have to do so as simplistically as possible. And whatever anyone says about banning characters/character actions vs. stages, they are absolutely not the same thing in this game. As Bones said, smash is primarily about the interaction between characters, the stage is just the surrounding environment. Banning ANYTHING in regards to characters or their actions opens a HUGE can of worms and sets a terrible precedent; that we can just ban whatever """broken""" (I use the term very lightly) technique is the flavor of the month. That is simply not an option in a respectable metagame. You either ban the character altogether (which everyone I think can agree is laughable) or you accept the character for who it is. Banning individual techniques is ******** and making super intricate definitions and punishments for the execution of said techniques is even more ********.

Just because arguably the best ICs player in the world got --2nd-- (not 1st, he didn't even ****ing win) at a REGIONAL tournament while actively using this technique absolutely does not justify a ban. If every other local and regional out there was being dominated by an ICs player abusing this technique and the general metagame was overcentralized and unplayable because of it, that would be one thing.

People who want to ban wobbling should put their money where their mouths are and pick up ICs and go **** everyone with such a super easy and broken tactic as wobbling.
 

Qzzy

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Random newb comments;
Sometime before the infinite was named after wobbles I accidently wobbled on a last stock last game against a Samus. I just wanted the extra damage and the forward tilt knock back but it stuck so I end up killing him. Yeah, not a great decision but I suck and that was reliable for me. Then there was a rule dispute and DSF, who was running the tourney, was like "oh, yeah, that's not legal." And I'm like "Oh no! My bad! I thought it was just frowned upon," followed by sad faces and a replay of the last game. My heart wasn't in it though and didn't try.

Years later, I still suck, still hesitant about using one of the characters I play b/c the community is full of haters, and mostly have this to say:

why can't the scrubs button-mash?
and​
Omg! I can't do anything for 10 - 15 seconds out the game! My melee is ruined.
and​
Wobbles should stop wobbling, eat a lot of donuts, and wobble wobble. (I'm a fan! ;))
 

U.F.O

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To be honest I don't see why Wobbling should or would be banned in the first place.
In my mind, at least, Wobbling is like chain grabbing. Sure not as hard or strenuous to put people in but the concept is the same. If a pro techs people into chain grabs it might as well be a K.O. Much same as Wobbling, if the person Wobbling messes up timing then you're free. Of course there's a lot of dispute about not being able to get out of the actual grab, and that's what's edging people to ban it. Though if that's the case the main objective isn't to avoid wobbling but to K.O Nana (or Popo). Abusive Wobbling is a scrub move obviously, though a good, fair player wouldn't do it excessively.
I think if people didn't do it as much it wouldn't be that big of a deal, but scrubs would use it excessively to do it which in that case isn't a good nor fair player.
I don't know. I think it's a little unfair to ban something that isn't all that broken. (I'll probably get hate comments on this, meh.)
 

Grim Tuesday

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Off a grab, puff can rest 2 characters in the entire game if they don't DI properly. Off a grab, ICs can infinite every character in the game regardless of what the grabbed person does. Rest and wobbling aren't comparable at all. Also, any small mistake where you can get rested, you can probably get grabbed as well.
It doesn't matter how many characters it affects unless you're trying to make the argument that Wobbling is broken. People are saying that Wobbling should be banned because it takes all control away from the opponent (which Rest does when it hits) and it lowers the skill cap because it's easier for both players than the DI'able chain-grabs (and Rest, similarly, is easier for both players than Puff grinding a stock away with bairs, nairs and throws). They also have the added similarity that both take away a stock instantly (which some people don't like about Wobbling) and that they are very strong punishes for very small mistakes.

People can ***** about the risk/reward; but using ICs in and of itself is a large risk than using Puff, and a whiffed grab with ICs can easily mean the end of their stock.

Wobbling is whack. Takes 0 skill to grab someone with ic's and press A with a rhythm. I bet everyone who is for it has never played a whack as icies so they don't know how extremely gay that is. Also armada saying dont get grabbed is a bunch of bs u play peach dude. Hella easy to not get grabbed when ur floating 99% of the time.
Win a tournament with Ice Climbers.
 

Soft Serve

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AZ
Rest does not take away all control from the opponent. They have at the very least the option of how to DI the rest. at lower percents they have the option to try to survive and return to the stage. In kill percentages they can Suicide DI and return in time to punish Jiggs. I feel it would only per a valid comparison if Jiggs regained control immediately if she lands it, or if it kills off the top like in brawl.

There is no perfect comparison to Wobbling that exists in melee, and that is exactly what KK tries to explain. Its not that its particularly broken, its that it is so opposite from everything else that is in the game. The only interaction that the opponent has the option for is to mash like crazy at low % where its possible to escape. Considering that most actual grabs that IC's land are conversions off of dsmashes, dash attacks or just techchases/jab resets, its rare that the get a straight grab at 0%.

I'm not particularly for banning of wobbling. I find it silly to target and limit a single aspect of a character because it is deemed "toxic" or other similar descriptions. But I also see wobbling removing the options that the defender has, the options that are what really make smash unique. Any technique that polarizing also stagnates the character's meta-game growth.

I find both sides of the argument very compelling and reasonable, so I'd support any TO's decision on if to ban or not. Evo is up to Mr. Wizard.

#FreeIceClimbers
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
2,881
Location
Gilbert, AZ
1) Something being the strongest thing in the game isn't a reason to ban it. Because then you're just left with the 2nd strongest thing being the new strongest thing.

2) Westballz; try playing ICs against somebody who's experienced against them. Try just spamming Z without knowing anything about the character or the matchup. Please tell me how well that goes for you, because if it actually works, then I've been losing b/c I'm not playing dumb enough and not the other way around. Glad to know what you think of my ICs though! I appreciate constructive criticism. I will strive to be less "whack as" in the future. I'm not sure what you mean by "gay" though. Please explain how sexuality comes into it.

3) Efficiency isn't the issue here. How different it is from the rest of the game isn't the issue here (no matter how much you wish it was). Brokenness/degeneracy is. KK almost makes a good point regarding "low-level" degenerate strategies, except that's hindered by the fact that low-level players aren't good. That's why we call them low-level. They're susceptible to dozens of degenerate, abusable strategies. The answer for them is learn to deal with it; that's what competition is about. Look at an obstacle and try to overcome it, and better yourself in the process. Alternatively, if a crummy IC player spams grabs to force an infinite, you could just pick Peach and d-air until it shield stabs, then land and d-smash. Freest win of your life.

4) As long as we're talking about how much skill and difficulty it takes to do things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX0kdVvjWVk#t=2m28s -- It's very hard to KO Nana.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX0kdVvjWVk#t=11m40s -- Very tough
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX0kdVvjWVk#t=12m25s -- Quite tricky indeed.

Get hit a couple times, my character's damage output goes down the drain. That's the drawback of playing a character with a vicious grab game. The best part is, Nana's behavior is identical to a level 1 CPU most of the time, so you can get good at this on your own.

5) You could always learn to mash like Fly does: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWLtL9x_7wQ#t=6m37s -- I get him in a grab at like 90% and he's out before I can barely charge a smash. The fact that he mashes so brutally means that unless my setups are totally clean, I had to either rush infinites and drop them (which I did at least twice) or I have to go for a different CG into an infinite, which leads to more escape opportunities.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
Rest does not take away all control from the opponent. They have at the very least the option of how to DI the rest. at lower percents they have the option to try to survive and return to the stage. In kill percentages they can Suicide DI and return in time to punish Jiggs. I feel it would only per a valid comparison if Jiggs regained control immediately if she lands it, or if it kills off the top like in brawl.
You can DI the move that they KO you with after the Wobble, lol. You're finding differences that don't actually have any relevance to anything; obviously Wobbling does not = Rest, thanks for clearing that up. The point is that for the reasons people want Wobbling banned, we should be banning Rest as well.

4) As long as we're talking about how much skill and difficulty it takes to do things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX0kdVvjWVk#t=2m28s -- It's very hard to KO Nana.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX0kdVvjWVk#t=11m40s -- Very tough
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX0kdVvjWVk#t=12m25s -- Quite tricky indeed.

Get hit a couple times, my character's damage output goes down the drain. That's the drawback of playing a character with a vicious grab game. The best part is, Nana's behavior is identical to a level 1 CPU most of the time, so you can get good at this on your own.

5) You could always learn to mash like Fly does: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWLtL9x_7wQ#t=6m37s -- I get him in a grab at like 90% and he's out before I can barely charge a smash. The fact that he mashes so brutally means that unless my setups are totally clean, I had to either rush infinites and drop them (which I did at least twice) or I have to go for a different CG into an infinite, which leads to more escape opportunities.
Liked this part of the post very much.
 

Armada

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
1,366
Wobbling is whack. Takes 0 skill to grab someone with ic's and press A with a rhythm. I bet everyone who is for it has never played a whack as icies so they don't know how extremely gay that is. Also armada saying dont get grabbed is a bunch of bs u play peach dude. Hella easy to not get grabbed when ur floating 99% of the time.
Well if it takes 0 skill to grab someone I would GLADLY see you play ICs vs people that knows the MU.
The wobbling should not be to hard (never even tried it cause I don't like playing ICs) but I agree with something that simple should not be to hard to learn doing consistently.

But just because the wobbling is not so hard does not mean getting the grab in the first place is easy. Nana is such a idiot and killing her should not be such a big problem once you touch her. And as you already know you can't wobble without Nana which means winning the matches are not that easy. But as I said you can prove me wrong if you feel for it.

I agree with Peach having a great advantage against Peach (no other Peach or good ICs seems to think it is as bad as I think though) but I have seen tons of Peaches playing the MU incorrectly which is leading to they are getting grabbed more often. I also have a lot of ICs experience so I would say I have a pretty good idea of the MU vs ICs with more chars then just Peach. I also know it is not easy to play this game on a very high level or consistently (trust me). However I do feel like banning wobbling is (in most cases) much more that people wanna remove something they have a hard time dealing with.

Since Wobbling is kinda "unique" it is easier to have more people supporting the idea of Wobbling getting banned.
Just curious so Im gonna ask you a question.

What MUs in top 7 (according to the tierlist) do you think ICs are winning respective losing against? (Wobbling allowed)
 

KrIsP!

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
2,599
Location
Toronto, Ontario
You can DI the move that they KO you with after the Wobble, lol. You're finding differences that don't actually have any relevance to anything; obviously Wobbling does not = Rest, thanks for clearing that up. The point is that for the reasons people want Wobbling banned, we should be banning Rest
I think that's a poor argument. Wobbles is an infinite and rest is a kill move. One has a failed attempt resulting in a whiffed grab. The other results in a free anything. Rest doesn't guarantee a kill at any percent or allow stalling and even when successful can be punished. Hell, i'd be more afraid to try and rest ice climbers if wobbling was legal simply because the resulting punish would be a free stock whereas resting a whiffed grab is a lot harder.

I get your trying to compare it to rest because its the next best move in terms of killing power but I don't really think they're comparable. Wobbling is in a unique situation.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I think that's a poor argument. Wobbles is an infinite and rest is a kill move. One has a failed attempt resulting in a whiffed grab. The other results in a free anything. Rest doesn't guarantee a kill at any percent or allow stalling and even when successful can be punished. Hell, i'd be more afraid to try and rest ice climbers if wobbling was legal simply because the resulting punish would be a free stock whereas resting a whiffed grab is a lot harder.

I get your trying to compare it to rest because its the next best move in terms of killing power but I don't really think they're comparable. Wobbling is in a unique situation.
Rest is way more unique than wobbling to me. It's the only move in the game that can be punished even if you KO with it... Saying it's harder to punish a missed wobble than a missed rest is probably the most pointless argument I've ever heard because a missed rest is by far the easiest thing to punish the game, right next to a shield break (which isn't even a move). If you ignore how powerful wobbling is, it's just a grab combo that can't be DIed in between the throw and the KO move (plenty of characters have guaranteed punishes regardless of DIs on their throws anyway). No one cares when ICs get a grab and charge a guaranteed fsmash, but suddenly when you allow them to tilt and pummel after the grab and before the fsmash, it's somehow unfair or broken. All the tilts in between do are decrease what percent ICs need the opponent to be at to kill from a synced grab. That's all. As a Falco player, I know there's hardly even any difference between wobbling being legal and banned for me. I'm pretty much always going to die from a synced grab past like 60%, and that's being generous. Assuming I can mash out until ~40% even when Nana is right next to Popo, that's a 20% gap between death percents depending on if it's legal or banned.
 

KrIsP!

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
2,599
Location
Toronto, Ontario
I just...I don't. Because you've restated what I said. I never meant to use rest as something comparable to make wobbling ban worthy. I meant to say they're so different you can't compare them considering grim Tuesday had said if wobbling is banned then rest is in the same boat because its just as powerful, but its completely unique from it. I said it can be punished even when successful, I stated the obvious because it was being overlooked. You can say rest is the unique one but that doesn't change my stance, I don't think they're comparable because of how there punished differently.
 
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