Wobbling Discussion Revisited #Evo2kprep

[D1]

Check the thread within and add your thoughts on the subject:

https://www.facebook.com/events/404229569675089/404598186304894/?notif_t=event_mall_comment

This was my post after having a heated debate that turned into a closed thread:

"After hearing both sides on the subject of wobbling, I came to the conclusion that:

1) Ease of use doesn't dictate whether or not something should be banned. As long as the opponent doesn't use it to stall the match out and only does it till kill percents its legal. Question is, up to what percent if legal should the wobble stop? 150?

2) In this day and age we need to man up and not just ban something b/c its boring to watch. If that's the case we should instill a ledge grab limit to stop M2K from hangin out at the edge all the time, a bair limit on Jigglypuff's who only keep their back to us in midair, unallowing Jiggz to rest us at zero and only around kill percents, forcing Fox mains to refrain from shining at zero percent, officially banning Sheik's from chaingrabs instead of soft banning it, and etc.

In closing for you guys who did fight for Melee to be at Evo, and are in fact attending, are you crossing your fingers that you don't run into an ICs main in pools/bracket instead of just preparing in advance? My first response to Andrew Greenberg came off as brash because I thought he was being condescending at first when he referred to me as "Mr. TO." Since then I cleared my head, took it to twitter, and also did some research on the current issue, and came to the conclusion that I do want wobbling legal. The main issue now is would the scene that we have in NYC die out because of it being legal? Do we even care to learn how to deal w/ the technique (i.e. mashing out of grabs at early percents?) I'm all for helping you guys prep for even since you all donated upwards to 95k for it to be on the main stage, and now that its there...are we going to try to adhere to their ruleset in advance to ensure that our state can bring home a victory on that very weekend in July 2013?"

Basically I'm hosting a tourney on the 20th of April (Sudden Death XII), and the first 11 had no wobbling with no complaints. We never really had wobbling allowed at TriState events except like Apex I believe...anywho in preparation for Evo2k Prog made me realize its best we have our players get used to the fact that on the grand stage we're probably going to have to be ready for someone who's going to abuse that tactic, and there's no better way to prep for a major than at a local...so why not have it legal? I'd like to hear from all of you on the controversial subject. I'm also taking this to twitter to hear from all sides so feel free to tweet me at @xD1x and I'll gladly retweet your responses to let the public hear our voice (not like it'll change the Evo2k's TOs stance on wobbling but just to hear different sides as to why it should or shouldn't be allowed in competitive play.)

Also feel free to post in that thread or this one as we have different players from different regions chiming in as well.

 

[Strong Badam]

make wobbling legal. this really shouldn't be controversial anymore.

 

[Nintendude]

Before TOs can ban wobbling they have to come up with a proper definition. This isn't as trivial an issue as it seems. Let's see what you guys can come up with and I'll play devil's advocate.

 

[D1]

make wobbling legal. this really shouldn't be controversial anymore.

I agree but it seems like, people are still adhering to the "this counterculture to smash" quote, and not really providing much of an argument except, if thats the case, bring back other stages.

 

[Revven]

I've always thought it was really strange to see it banned. Especially now after UMvC3, where the infinites aren't banned.

And speaking of UMvC3, I bet you could come up with a counterculture argument for those infinites just as well; that they don't fit the game etc. But look, they're around, and players deal with it in a game that was already full of one touch deaths.

The fear of someone switching their main to ICs and just trying to wobble their way to victory, thereby "degenerating the game's competitiveness" is a weird argument. I certainly don't agree with it.

Comparing the banning of wobbling to the banning of items is lol though.

 

[DaiAndOh]

I've always thought it was really strange to see it banned. Especially now after UMvC3, where the infinites aren't banned.

And speaking of UMvC3, I bet you could come up with a counterculture argument for those infinites just as well; that they don't fit the game etc. But look, they're around, and players deal with it in a game that was already full of one touch deaths.

The fear of someone switching their main to ICs and just trying to wobble their way to victory, thereby "degenerating the game's competitiveness" is a weird argument. I certainly don't agree with it.

Comparing the banning of wobbling to the banning of items is lol though.

As someone who is in favor of Wobbling being legal, just want to point out that infinites have always been apart of the Marvel series, long before 3...or even 2.

 

[Strong Badam]

the stage discussion is another issue entirely and we as a community have always used entirely different ban criteria for stages than we have for characters/character tactics. this should be obvious to everyone.

i also don't think the "tournament scene could die out" argument is relevant. not only will it not happen (there are like 4 ICs players that are tournament threats; the majority of scenes throughout the country are unaffected by its banning or lack thereof, and those ICs players will likely win or lose regardless of which way the rule is), but if it did, would that not be a case of "survival of the fit" for fighting games? is there a problem with a game dying because it has issues? as much as I love SSBM and its community, in a hypothetical situation i would rather SSBM's competitive community die than us impose a bunch of artificial rules to the point where we're no longer playing SSBM, we're playing SSBM with 3 pages of rules dictating how players are allowed to play. that's not going to be a problem, though, not now, not ever.

 

[Revven]

As someone who is in favor of Wobbling being legal, just want to point out that infinites have always been apart of the Marvel series, long before 3...or even 2.

Oh I'm aware, but I'm just using UMvC3 as a recent example since when the infinites were discovered there was a discussion of making them legal/illegal for a few weeks, iirc. And of course it was decided to let them rock.

 

[Jolteon]

I think banning wobbling is the biggest mistake that's been made in this community.

 

[ThePrime]

Let IC wobble. I still can't believe this is even up for debate lol.

 

[choknater]

of course it should be legal, so that i can use it

 

[iRobinhoood]

Let them wobble. It might even make you a better player since you'll avoid getting grabbed 10x better.

 

[bertbusdriver]

Wobbling should be legal if fox is legal.

 

[RockinRudy]

Let's ban fox's shine.​

​

Nuff said.​

​

/thread​

 

[Bones0]

I can't believe anyone actually wants to allow wobbling. As a tactic, it is just outright unnatural. If we allow wobbling, it is essentially a slap in the face to other characters who have legitimate grabs. The whole point of grabs is for people to throw afterwards. This is a fact of the game that cannot be ignored. People seem to forget that wobbling has been banned for so long because it's inherently immoral and wrong to permit. If we legalize wobbling, why not freeze glitching? By 2015 we would surely be having Master Hand dittos in GFs... It will just be a matter of time before the very fabric of our community is shred to pieces like a black hole tearing at the space-time continuum. We will all be doomed to the harsh chaos of the universe unless we can maintain our strength as a community. As a wise man once said, strength through unity, unity through faith.

#UnityRuleset2013

 

[the_CAM_factor]

i honestly think you should only be allowed to wobble one stock per match, i dont see anything wrong with that except it might seem unnatural with an artificial limit

 

[phish-it]

Even if it is guaranteed and the opponent can't do anything about it after being grabbed, Wobbling hasn't proven to be a dominant enough tactic to warrant banning. It doesn't over centralize the metagame; Ice Climbers don't win every even where Wobbling is legal. Hell, it practically doesn't even influence results at all. The high level Ice Climber players still do well regardless of whether Wobbling is legal, as their standard chain grabs are devastating enough as they are against most of the cast anyway. There are ~7 characters better than Ice Climbers as it is and they don't suddenly become unbeatable or better than the rest of the cast with Wobbling legal.

It really looks more broken on paper than it does in practice. It might be ban worthy if solo Popo could wobble but the fact that they can easily be separated and doing so negates this tactic makes it manageable enough to be allowed.

Wobbling might be lame but there is alot of other lame **** in this game as well.

 

[Shakyy]

I'm an IC's main from Australia and the state I live in is the only state its not banned in (god bless South Australia).
At one of my recent smash meetups I used wobbling on the TO, and he stated "wobbling is banned check the rules" I looked through the rules and was delighted to see there was no sight of any such rule. So eventually a poll was put up on the active Facebook page for the SA super smash players. The vote so far is put in the advantage of allowing Wobbling which I'm pleased with. We came to a conclusion that the technique may look boring or makes the game less fun, but banning it would give us plenty of ground to ban other techniques. It was even stated that if Wobbling was banned, we would have ground to ban certain match ups etc.

 

[choknater]

lmao @ 2015 master hand dittos

pretty sure master hand is free and has no good moves. i wonder what his frame data is like. 500 frame attacks, maybe 30 or so active frames, 100 invincibility, 300 recovery. lolololol.

anyway

it is hard as HELL to grab people in today's metagame. i think in my last two sets vs pewpewu i only grabbed him like once. people deserve to die if they get grabbed by ic's hehehhe

 

[Strong Badam]

i honestly think you should only be allowed to wobble one stock per match, i dont see anything wrong with that except it might seem unnatural with an artificial limit

agreed
falco should also only be able to shoot 17 lasers per match
and fox should only be able to shinespike once per match
and falcon should only be able to stomp -> knee once per match
and jiggs should only be able to exist once per set

 

[Zankoku]

Master Hand dittos should be banned for excessive stalling.

 

[bertbusdriver]

ICs can still kill you on a grab (unless you do the crazy mash out i believe is possible < 7%) without wobbling, it's just arbitrarily harder to do so without it (handoffs, etc). Banning wobbling seems like scrub mentality to me. Play to win.

Maybe I'd feel differently if there was an epidemic of mediocre players winning locals and going deep in nationals purely through wobbling, but mediocre players should have a hard time grabbing better players to begin with so I don't envision such a scenario.

 

[choknater]

yeah, there are no mediocre players doing that because it is VERY HARD to get a grab in the first place

wobbling was at its peak a few years ago when it was popular, and both chu and wobbles were active in tournaments. at one tournament where they both wobbled quite a lot, they got like 3rd and 5th or something... that's still not 1st and 2nd

ic's are deservedly B tier, and long before the infinite was discovered, they were already known for killing off a grab.

though... i wouldn't be surprised if this technique helps me rise up a few placings at NCR and EVO...

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Should have never been banned in the first place.

#freeRobertWright

 

[A-1]

im an IC main and im pretty scrubby. i do wobble some of my friends but its stupid hard to grab them. iplay with people like A rookie, khepri and hairy nips. and they just completely avoid getting grabbed. honestly it should be legal everywhere. just dont get grabbed.

 

[Comatose]

Can't believe this is even being debated. Shouldn't have been banned, shouldn't be banned. Just because it could "be abused by mediocre players to place well" isn't a good enough argument. Even the best IC players, in the tournaments where it's legal, don't completely obliterate the competition. And there are so many other characters with moves that get abused, notably the top characters.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

The only positive of it being banned is now we know how little it affects tournament results. ICs players place the same with or without it.

Maybe that will discourage scrubs from johning when it happens in a big match.

....
....nah

 

[JKJ]

Allow Wobbling already. SERIOUSLY. I hate the technique, and I always get grabbed (which is why Marth players eat me for breakfast) but seriously, it's not broken at all. Is Pikachu's chain grab on spacies broken? NOPE. And Axe does some nasty things to people with it. It Marth's chaingrab broken? Nope. And he can 0-death Spacies with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3udnvVNIHgM

 

[Ziodyne]

wobbling is not really a true 0-death
you can actually mash out before 40% if you're good at mashing

add that to the whole "just avoid" ic's grabs and you're golden
also, i feel sorry for ic mains because the character they play can be downright frustrating LOL

 

[iRobinhoood]

I messed around with IC's for a brief time period. One of the must frustrating characters I've ever played with.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Is Pikachu's chain grab on spacies broken? NOPE. And Axe does some nasty things to people with it. It Marth's chaingrab broken? Nope. And he can 0-death Spacies with it

Well, we effectively ban those too.

Yay player bans.

It'll probably take a few years of relentless arguing by key community figures, like Wobbles did for wobbling, to rid ourselves of them completely. And then we'll feel really silly for ever having them at all.

 

[JKJ]

Player bans? I'm not familiar with that. I have seen both Pikachu's and Marth's chaingrabs used in high level, important matches.

 

[choknater]

JKJ there's no need to ask anybody to "Allow" wobbling. The status quo is that all major tournaments allow it. D1 just decided to revitalize the topic in light of EVO, though I'm sure it's been beaten to death by now.

 

[JKJ]

This Apex it wasn't.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I find wobbling boring in that it detracts depth from the character and encourages desperation tactics because of the payoff. It's also about as far away from Melee as one can possibly get in terms of a punish because it removes interaction (which is Melee's selling point). That said, it doesn't make Ice Climbers broken so it could be allowed. I dislike it but beggars and choosers.

 

[Pengie]

man after seeing this match I can't help but feel that complaining about wobbling is some ***** **** XD

 

[pokemongeof]

I think wobbling isn't bad. It should be legal

 

[BTmoney]

master hand hard countered by fox lasers lul

 

[choknater]

thinking stuff cuz

even at lower level tournies

there is more powerful stuff than wobbling

 

[-LzR-]

At lower level things aren't even relevant. And at lower levels the guy who practices Fox 1 hour per day but doesn't know what hell he is doing will destroy everyone just by shine laser usmash nair bull****.