What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Ninj4pikachu]

I don't like Mii Brawler and feel like the character allows worse players to win over stronger ones.

I don't understand this. Why/how would this mid tier character allow worse players to win? I see no reason as to what possible characteristic that this character has that would allow this to happen. There are no RNG attacks like game and watch, no overwhelming power in general, average recovery, average combo potential, and average MU. Since Mii's are so closely tied to the customs argument I feel you should explain your reasoning here.

The issue I have with customs buffing bad characters to viable levels is that said characters tend to become one-dimensional/uninteresting in the process. Take a look at any top or high tier characters. These characters tend to be good as a sum of their parts with great all-around normals, specials, and other relevant fighter specs. These characters have a whole kit of tools that contribute to their top or high tier characters. To make a low tier character viable in a special move or two, that move has to be stupid good, enough to compensate for an overall lackluster character. Usually, it's just not enough. There's pretty much two relevant characters that exhibit this though. Donkey Kong with Kong Cyclone is a good example. Kong Cyclone essentially replaces DK's neutral game with a move that does it all out-of-shield and in general; range, damage, knockback, super armor, windboxes that can suck characters in or send them at really weird angles, and negligible lag so long as you autocancel it correctly (which is easy). This is why you'll often see people, instead of calling Kong Cyclone "broken" or "janky" (I swear some people ignore posts and just see this when it doesn't exist), say that Kong Cyclone simplifies DK's gameplay/neutral. You get this character that is utterly dull in all aspects, centralized around spamming one move -- hence the one-dimensional label. The best example of polarizing is Palutena. Infinite Lightweight makes Lightweight a move with no counterplay outside of the trivial requirement to position yourself to use Lightweight again (easy and not punishable at all. Palutena becomes A character with the best mobility in the game and throw kill setups that begin as early as 50-60% (dthrow -> nair -> uair at this percent), with essentially no drawbacks. Her entire kit becomes centralized around this one move (glitches move at that). These characters, due to their flawed normal kits, become excessively centralized around one option, one custom move that is their ticket to viability. For low tiers that don't get this kind of move, they still aren't good enough and therefore the buffs are irrelevant. This trend actually tends to follow for mid tiers and even certain high/top tiers that benefit from customs. Are there technically more viable characters? Maybe, let's run with that. The thing is that these characters are not made better as a sum of their parts but rather one specific move, which simplifies their gameplay and makes them overall less interesting/deep as characters. This is why people have a problem with Kong Cyclone DK, not because the character becomes overpowered or unbeatable with the move.

I can't agree with this, while it's true that many characters in the high tiers are good all around, many have 1 or 2 things that make them high tier. Look at jiggly puff from melee. Her "space animal killer combo" is the best reason to use her against fox, Falco, and caption falcon. The only other place she is better than average is her areal game. Other than that she is light, slow, and easy to edgeguard herself.

Dedede in brawl LITERALY just did his chain grab, the easiest chain grab in the game because it didn't even need to be buffered. Without that he is a fat, slow penguin.

Also to a lesser extant falco's game in brawl also heavily revolved around that amazing down air of his that spiked so fast.

Gannon on the other hand (ssb 4 version) mearly gains a better approach that synergyzes with the rest of his moveset. He gets new combos, better recovery and is all around better for the customs.

EDIT: I cant deny that the overcentralization thin is true to an extent. But any dong player (I main DK) would know that to maximize your potential you would want to also use DK's edgeguard game which is where he shines in the first place and is still needed to succeed even with the custom.

 

[Jams.]

I don't understand this. Why/how would this mid tier character allow worse players to win? I see no reason as to what possible characteristic that this character has that would allow this to happen. There are no RNG attacks like game and watch, no overwhelming power in general, average recovery, average combo potential, and average MU. Since Mii's are so closely tied to the customs argument I feel you should explain your reasoning here.

His very strong and fairly easy to execute punish game downplays the importance of neutral in my opinion. Mii Brawler has to win fewer interactions in neutral to take your stock compared to any other character, even hard hitters like Ganondorf. Mii Brawler is also very good in disadvantage because of nair, great aerial mobility, and Feint Jump and can reset to neutral fairly well. What this means is that Mii Brawler can just play rock-paper-scissors with option select in neutral and still come out ahead. Even if Brawl is at 120% and you're at 40%, the game is basically even. Obviously DI helps a lot, and for some characters this isn't an issue because they can reliably escape kill set-ups. Other characters get bodied really badly by Brawler's combos even with good DI, and I feel that Brawler can cause major upsets when playing versus these characters.

 

[Illuminose]

Also, uh, customs Mii Brawler is top tier (at least tiny is). His mobility is ridiculous, both aerially (in terms of air speed and jump height) and on the ground. He has true combo kills off dthrow at ~40% and one of the most ridiculous out-of-shield punish options in the game. His recovery is good. He has other non-gimmick kill confirms and a great overall kit with excellent frame data and safe moves. Don't kid yourself, Mii Brawler is no mid tier in customs.

What @ Jams. said is 100% true as well.

@ Ninj4pikachu that's not really true. Top characters have defining aspects, but their movesets are generally overall good and versatile rather than one-dimensional. I'm not talking about previous games (although there are so many things wrong with your puff comparison), I'm talking about this game and it's the truth for this game. As for the Ganon reference, the issue is that it's still not enough. You still are losing hard to Rosalina, to Sheik, to Luigi...in terms of viability, Ganon really isn't getting anywhere. The buffs are not enough. Also DK Up B spam is legit for edgeguarding too lol.

 

[Goesasu]

Ehh, not all characters have customs available to them. Kind of unfair to allow them when some of the cast don't have the options.

Also, most of the top players agree that customs are more problematic than helpful. (specifically, ZeRo)

I'm inclined to side with them. Customs are cool but, as ZeRo has stated, they help top tier characters become even more powerful (citing Pikachu as an example)

Heck, even Esam believes Pikachu is broken soooo. Yeah. Customs off please.

So where are alll this broken pikachus toping evo? what only one who is supossed to be the very best pikachu player in da whole world? what say again he got beaten by default pacman and default mario?

Experience tell us that custom pikachu is less broken than default sheik, diddy, mario and pacman. Or ESAM is just not good enough to prove your thesis?

 

[Illuminose]

So where are alll this broken pikachus toping evo? what only one who is supossed to be the very best pikachu player in da whole world? what say again he got beaten by default villager and default mario?

Experience tell us that custom pikachu is less btoken than default sheik, diddy, mario and villager. Or ESAM is just not good enough to prove your thesis?

Mario does well against Pikachu period, him losing in 7th to Ally isn't really the point. Pikachu's custom move setups are just broken. Watch his set with Regi and you'll see what I mean. Somehow this 'gimmick', aka Pikachu's TWave infinite into Heavy Skull Bash, was landed multiple times on world-class players. If you get hit by Thunder Wave at 40%, you are dead if the Pikachu executes. Straight up. This isn't a healthy option; it marginalizes player skill because you don't even really have to work that hard besides landing the Thunder Wave.

 

[dav3yb]

I'm currently wondering if we'll see anything like: Singles = customs off; Doubles = customs on.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I'm currently wondering if we'll see anything like: Singles = customs off; Doubles = customs on.

I can picture the first doubles camping strategy being cooked up lol

 

[Flamecircle]

Any tourney streams that are keeping customs? I more or less stopped watching weeklies now, since customs were a good portion of my enjoyment of smash 4.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

On the topic of Meta Knight not being very good, I think he's a top 10 character without customs and is still good enough to see use in a customs meta. His advantaged state with his combo and kill set ups are just too good to be a middling character. That said, AA mentioned not caring about some bad characters being made worse in a customs meta, because of all the things the other characters gain. And that's just how some already feel, they don't care about the lesser characters, because customs still don't bring most of those up to the level of the higher tiers. It's kinda like what's the point? Sure, they are more likely to perform at locals, but in major tournaments they are probably much less likely to do well.

Nah, there's just no way a character with MK's neutral is top 10 regardless. I'm really not convinced he's top 20, but I'm entirely certain MK is not top 10. Like... MK can't even use any of that good stuff if he doesn't win neutral exchanges, and winning neutral exchanges with a butter knife is awfully tricky.

That being said, I don't think customs "make anyone worse" except in a strictly relative sense. Like let's take Jigglypuff; her customs are pretty mediocre (the up-Bs are an upgrade that doesn't even matter since all versions of the move are garbage, and while I think Leaping Rest is underrated, it's still not exactly a game changer for such a poor character). Is she actually worse in a custom metagame? Whether customs are on or off, she's a limited character who struggles to do much but bair her heart out. Fundamentally Jigglypuff lacks in tools but can kinda annoy people with her limited virtues; I think a dedicated Jigglypuff main would do about equally well either way. On a tier list she's obviously lower in a custom meta (because other mediocre characters are improved), but I don't think her real viability goes down so much as it remains at "not very viable at all". She is irrelevant in both customs on and customs off for sure, but I definitely don't buy into the narrative that any character who is not bad with customs off becomes bad with customs on or that any bad character actually loses. Heck, if I were going to main Jigglypuff (which again strikes me as an awfully poor decision), I'd prefer to play customs on just because the greater gameplay variety increases the odds that my opponent hasn't prepared for my specific brand of bad character...

Ehh, not all characters have customs available to them. Kind of unfair to allow them when some of the cast don't have the options.

Also, most of the top players agree that customs are more problematic than helpful. (specifically, ZeRo)

I'm inclined to side with them. Customs are cool but, as ZeRo has stated, they help top tier characters become even more powerful (citing Pikachu as an example)

Heck, even Esam believes Pikachu is broken soooo. Yeah. Customs off please.

Pikachu in ESAM's hands got 7th at EVO, and no other Pikachu made top 32. It was visually not impressive at all; especially in the last set, HSB definitely did more to make ESAM lose than it did to make him win. Either ESAM got exposed as being nowhere near a top player or Pikachu got exposed with customs as being nowhere near broken. Given ESAM's excellent record as a competitor in general and the fact that zero additional players stepped up to exploit Pikachu at the same level ESAM did, I'd prefer to take the view that he actually is very good but that his character is just being crazy overrated. ESAM's results speak way louder than his beliefs. If ZeRo thinks custom Pikachu is broken, he might have demonstrated that by using Pikachu. I think it wasn't an accident that for most of the tournament he chose Sheik instead.

I would also strongly advise you not to just listen to top players; make your own decisions. Top players have different wants and needs from a game than you; they make money at every tournament with what is known to work right now while you (I'm presuming) generally pay money on the weekend to enjoy your hobby. Balance is in many ways a threat to them whereas it really can do nothing but help you. Of course I'm sure my motives can be challenged as well... as could anyone's. I just think it's very important to think for yourself; letting the judgments of others supersede your own judgments is letting the interests of others supersede your own.

I agree that knowing a matchup is a player's responsibility, though I don't like Mii Brawler and feel like the character allows worse players to win over stronger ones. I gave my anecdote mainly because @ Amazing Ampharos was looking for a situation where customs affected EVO pool results.

I do appreciate you stepping up and providing an example to justify your beliefs; to my knowledge, you're the only one who has made a specific citation of gameplay in this thread that was worsened by customs being legal. My inclination generally would be that, especially for players who don't practice with customs, the Mii Fighter characters will be super unfamiliar (it's more than special moves in their cases; it's entire new characters), and I believe the whole context of EVO suggested strongly that Mii Brawler in general is really overrated. It is a shame that your pool apparently had several players who were unprepared for this character entirely and that that cheapened your EVO experience. All I can really say in defense is that, as evidenced by the constant humming of advice around the hall and Brawler's generally dismal results throughout the event, the meta will quickly spread the knowledge that dealing with Helicopter Kick is just a matter of staying away from the edges of the stage. Once everyone knows that, I have a fair bit of confidence that your pool won't be able to play out that way again.

Either way, congratulations on making it out of your pool at EVO, and I'm sorry it didn't happen the way you wanted it to. I don't really agree with your position (I feel that, with reasonable match-up knowledge, Mii Brawler mostly just puts his user at a disadvantage), but I do respect that you put yourself out there and were willing to step up with reasonable substance to your position.

 

[MVD]

There actually is irrefutably ignorance even at the top level. People like MVD, Seagull Joe, and Ally always hated customs yet clearly never played them enough to justify said opinion. They started with that opinion but never really proved it to themself or others.

The evidence for this is all of them at one point stated their respective characters customs were non-viable garbage, or strict downgrades, and now we're considering some of those specific customs almost or actually controversial.

Players like ESAM and ZeRo who clearly have experience to back up their opinion are totally justified in such, but don't give ALL top players the benefit of the doubt.

I did play with customs, and guess what, they blow

 

[DunnoBro]

I did play with customs, and guess what, they blow

At APEX you told me you disliked customs but didn't even know duck hunt had guaranteed kill set-ups with them. You also have stated multiple times zigzag is bad or "average" when it's obvious with my placings and winnings at Xanadu compared to default days, it's superior.

You're welcome to your opinion, but it's obvious you had this opinion before actually seriously trying to understand them. As such, confirmation bias is a real factor here and without in-depth explanation, I'll never take a stance like "They blow" or "They're jank" as any kind of meaningful argument.

 

[Goesasu]

Much of dislike against customs comes from ignorance and lack of proper research because of sheep mentality. People think ^Esam and zero dislikes customs so i must share that opinion because apparently i cant made my mind on my own by actually trying them^. Geez.

Yes Pikachu has great customs yet losses to default mario and pacman, countering kong cyclone takes time to learn and didnt top, helicopter kick can kill near the ledge at low % ( not like nairo ZSS boost kick killed zero sheik at 40% but seems thats ok), villager becomes more campy yet it was beaten by a non main default sheik.

Customs are not anymore ^jank or broken^ than top tier specials, and thats the kind of things that makes them top tier in the first place. If we are ok with ZZS boost kick and down b, sheik vanish, needles and bouncing fish, diddys monkey flip etc.. how can anyone be against customs that are not even close to that kind of power? does link custom regular boomerang or meteor bombs, samus relentess missiles, docs soaring tornado, charizard dragon rush, warios rose waft or speedy bike, ganon wiz dropkick or dark fist, kirby upper cutter, sonic hammer spindash, robin fire wall and speed thunder, ike aether drive or close combat, marth and lucina crescent slash, wii fit weighed header or enriched sun salutation or even dk kong cyclone scare you more than any of the default moves i listed? The Only custom that shares the power of ZSS boost kick is pikachus heavy skull bash as helicopter kick needs to be landed near the ledge.

Custom off means sending to oblivion tons of mid and low tiers, palutena, ganon, dk, 3Miis, robin, duck hunt, doctor mario, kirby. All these chars needs their customs to be competitive, and as a shulk main i could put him in that list too (advancing air slash is crucial in neutral, and the monado art of your choice like decesive is to me).

Others chars improve a lot with customs and even tough they could be played without them propably a lot of less people will. Charizard, marth, lucina, ike, mr game and watch, samus, ddd, rob, falco, link, bowser and many more.

Do we really want to see sheik, Zzs, diddy, luigi, mario, pikachu and fox as the only viable options? why reducing the roster like that when the game itself give us the option to improve less blessed characters by default?

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

So now we've got Omni's video to consider. I want to try to write a reasonable response answering all of his concerns, but I think the most important thing to keep in mind is what he said at the end - he is not "the enemy". We all want Smash 4 to succeed so we need to keep it civil and stay respectful as a community to attract outsiders.

I'm still looking for how to word my response for his first two arguments about the opinions of pro players (which he admits is not perfect) and "one meta is better than two" (I start talking about it later). The last one though is the appeal to logistics, which is partially dependent on the area and who has the customs unlocked via 3ds. That being said, with many communities this isn't an issue because at least one person has them all unlocked in some way and can transfer the AA sets. Even if all 10 slots are NOT filled in future editions, the 6-8 sets are all that is really needed for understanding about, according to AA, 90% of matchups. In addition, when a person with a different setup transfers their character in, it stays so it can be practiced against. This is especially true if said person is a regular at that particular venue and not just a "one-shot". As long as we have a standard group of movesets to make all this easier and one person to transfer them all to everyone who wants them, there really isn't much of an excuse here.




I want to start talking about the "one meta > two" argument, because in a way it makes sense and in a way it's arguable. I definitely don't want to split the community in half, and neither does Omni, but it does make me wonder if forcing one of two "denominations" on people is even necessary. As noted above, EVO showed that a Customs On major is possible, so as I mentioned earlier, what's wrong with having some events be custom on and some be custom off?

I have to bring up the reality show argument again because it seems the most one to one - every season has different twists and different players that each contestant has to navigate around. Fans could argue the "what ifs" like "what if the teams weren't split up and so and so wasn't separated from his alliance and immediately voted out for being an outsider?", but at the end of the day, it can't change what actually happened.

But I know Smash Bros. isn't a reality show. We're attempting to show that it can be a legitimate eSport, so sports references probably make more sense. The first one to come to me is the Denver Broncos. Because of the altitude, teams have to be prepared specifically how to handle conditions when playing against that particular team on their home field. I did look it up to make sure I wasn't spouting utter nonsense and ESPN says the same thing: http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insi...why-denver-broncos-home-field-advantage-great

Every tournament has variables because no two tournaments are the same. Whether customs are on or off may be a more noticeable variable than others, but it looks to be simply a variable nonetheless. And it's a variable that reaches a compromise between both communities, but both sets of players equally need to be prepared to work through if they want to compete in said tournament.




Lastly, I have been reading David Sirlin's Playing to Win, as recommended by @T0MMY. I've found it has much to say about bans in other kinds of tournaments, particularly Street Fighter, that could easily be applicable in this situation. Here's the link for anyone interested: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned

The basic gist of it though is that before bans are made, elements of the game must be seen as "innocent until proven guilty". That's ultimately what we're trying to decide on here, and when answering that question I still have to give a hearty "I don't know". But customs did seem to be given a guilty verdict almost immediately for multiple reasons (mainly inconvenience which is in the process of fixing itself) and I'm not really convinced they were warranted.

I alone can't 100% confirm that this is "the competitive player's bible" because any moron can post anything on the internet and say it's true. I'm gonna need other people in the field to back me up on this one.

But if this is a trusted source, what does the fighting game community see when they see us arguing back and forth over rulesets rather than simply "playing the game"? I know a lot of fgc people already look down on all the smash bros. games, and their opinion is not the most important, otherwise we wouldn't still be playing smash. But EVO set both melee and smash for wii U alongside other fighting games as one of their own, so we really do need to take the fact that we just might be part of the fgc into consideration.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I just feel like customs add some much needed variety to smash bros. We may even see some new strategies come out of them. There are logistical issues if nobudy has a hacked 3DS version, and if that's the case then so be it. But I believe more often or not somone will have one and if you can do a customs on tourney I don't see why not.

Hey I have an idea that's kinda crazy lol

What if... Now just hear me out... The option for customs was counter picked. Meaning that the first match in a set of 3 was default. But if you lost you could counter pick to have customs on?... I'm just spit balling here so don't take this too seriously.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I did play with customs, and guess what, they blow

In Diddy's case, yeah they sort of do. Diddy really doesn't gain much out of customs, outside of Rocketbarrel Attack, which is highly situational in the end. Do Giant Peanuts have any added vallue? It's the only custom I haven't tried out yet, because my friend hasn't unlocked it yet in his game file (don't own no Wii U or Smash myself).

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

In Diddy's case, yeah they sort of do. Diddy really doesn't gain much out of customs, outside of Rocketbarrel Attack, which is highly situational in the end. Do Giant Peanuts have any added vallue? It's the only custom I haven't tried out yet, because my friend hasn't unlocked it yet in his game file (don't own no Wii U or Smash myself).

I myself main and I have to say that most of his customs are worse save the orbiter customs. The guiding bow is nice for sniping below the stage, but it has so much ending lag that it can't be used for neutral. But then again he got a good default and some characters got a worse default set.

 

[MVD]

At APEX you told me you disliked customs but didn't even know duck hunt had guaranteed kill set-ups with them. You also have stated multiple times zigzag is bad or "average" when it's obvious with my placings and winnings at Xanadu compared to default days, it's superior.

You're welcome to your opinion, but it's obvious you had this opinion before actually seriously trying to understand them. As such, confirmation bias is a real factor here and without in-depth explanation, I'll never take a stance like "They blow" or "They're jank" as any kind of meaningful argument.

I mean your stuff at Xanadu is nice and all, but when I've tried to use them in SFL and they just dont get it done, I feel my experience outweighs yours. You're simply better with custom can by a large margin and I'mbetter with default can. Zigzag takes away so much utility I use default can for. My opinion is that they blow, you dont have to take my word for it and I'm fine with that

In Diddy's case, yeah they sort of do. Diddy really doesn't gain much out of customs, outside of Rocketbarrel Attack, which is highly situational in the end. Do Giant Peanuts have any added vallue? It's the only custom I haven't tried out yet, because my friend hasn't unlocked it yet in his game file (don't own no Wii U or Smash myself).

Giant peanut just does more damage, but it doesnt go as far and its slower and its still not durable

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I mean your stuff at Xanadu is nice and all, but when I've tried to use them in SFL and they just dont get it done, I feel my experience outweighs yours. You're simply better with custom can by a large margin and I'mbetter with default can. Zigzag takes away so much utility I use default can for. My opinion is that they blow, you dont have to take my word for it and I'm fine with that

In theory, zig zag can seems to have more utility in general, I just find it harder to control. I'm sure if it's used enough and the player gets used to it that the zig zag may find more use, but the default isn't inherently inferior. It's truly more of a sidegrade.

 

[GonashX]

If the Smash community can keep it under control then customs could turn out to be an incredible inclusion in competitive play but if the players can't find a way to handle it properly it could be the exact opposite. I personally want to see where this goes because customs seem to have a ton of potential, but that's just me.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

Customs need to go... marios gust cape is the lamest thing I have ever encountered In 13 years of playing smash.

 

[A_Kae]

Customs need to go... marios gust cape is the lamest thing I have ever encountered In 13 years of playing smash.

And how does one custom (and one I've not heard anyone but you complain about) mean that all of them have to be banned?

That's an awful method of determining legality.

 

[AeonXero]

Pikachu in ESAM's hands got 7th at EVO, and no other Pikachu made top 32. It was visually not impressive at all; especially in the last set, HSB definitely did more to make ESAM lose than it did to make him win. Either ESAM got exposed as being nowhere near a top player or Pikachu got exposed with customs as being nowhere near broken. Given ESAM's excellent record as a competitor in general and the fact that zero additional players stepped up to exploit Pikachu at the same level ESAM did, I'd prefer to take the view that he actually is very good but that his character is just being crazy overrated. ESAM's results speak way louder than his beliefs. If ZeRo thinks custom Pikachu is broken, he might have demonstrated that by using Pikachu. I think it wasn't an accident that for most of the tournament he chose Sheik instead

ZeRo is adamant about not using customs, it would be kinda strange for him to abuse them when he dislikes them.

So where are alll this broken pikachus toping evo? what only one who is supossed to be the very best pikachu player in da whole world? what say again he got beaten by default pacman and default mario?

Experience tell us that custom pikachu is less broken than default sheik, diddy, mario and pacman. Or ESAM is just not good enough to prove your thesis?

It's not technically my thesis, ZeRo and Esam are the ones who spurred the idea that Custom Pikachu is broken. ZeRo probably could have abused HSB but he entered evo with the mindset of avoiding the use of customs altogether (because of his disdain for them, one would assume, among other obvious reasons)

Besides, why is it fair to legalize customs when some of the characters don't even have them?

 

[WritersBlah]

ZeRo is adamant about not using customs, it would be kinda strange for him to abuse them when he dislikes them.

I'm not really active on social media (especially Twitter), but the fact that ZeRo is against customs always struck me as a bit odd, as for a while on his YouTube channel, he was showcasing several custom sets and he seemed really excited about them. Was it really just Pikachu and Villager that turned him off from them?

 

[AeonXero]

I'm not really active on social media (especially Twitter), but the fact that ZeRo is against customs always struck me as a bit odd, as for a while on his YouTube channel, he was showcasing several custom sets and he seemed really excited about them. Was it really just Pikachu and Villager that turned him off from them?

I'm not entirely sure, but I think he had said something about customs just complicating how much MU data one would have to delve into, and since the cast is already 50+, that's a LOT of MU data to study.

 

[WakerofWinds]

I'm not really active on social media (especially Twitter), but the fact that ZeRo is against customs always struck me as a bit odd, as for a while on his YouTube channel, he was showcasing several custom sets and he seemed really excited about them. Was it really just Pikachu and Villager that turned him off from them?

As far as I know, ZeRo's never really given any reason for why he thinks they're bad. I'll have to look into it more, but the only "statement" I've ever heard with reasoning was actually from James Chen, who said ZeRo told him customs improve top tiers too much.

 

[Illuminose]

The reason ZeRo didn't use customs is that 1111 Sheik is the best set and 1111 Diddy is arguably the best set as well (he prefers normal Up B). There isn't some aversion to using customs -- he was using the best sets for his characters, which just so happens to be default. Don't make more out that then there is.

He has actually stated his reasoning for disliking customs, which basically boils down to certain custom moves being unhealthy and making the game more unbalanced. He also has the pretty common opinion that creating an effective banlist is impossible in this community because it just turns into infinite debate...also probably true.

 

[Dooms]

Not all regions have someone who has a Powersave and can easily unlock all customs on their 3DS. In my city, nobody has a fully unlocked 3DS or a Powersave and the people who own Smash 3DS are not supportive of customs. As such, we're forced to fully unlock customs on our Wii Us. Even with the turbo controller method, it takes more than a week to get a full unlock. The community also has a fairly limited supply of turbo controllers available, so we can't all unlock customs simultaneously. In addition, as someone who owns a turbo controller, there are people in my scene that bring set-ups but that I do not know very well, and I wouldn't be comfortable lending my controller to those people. The result of all these effects is that getting customs set up in my community has been a very long and tedious process that is still unfinished. If we choose to run a tournament, we can choose to run on either 6~ set-ups with customs on or 12+ set-ups with customs off. It's simply far easier and more efficient to run a customs off tournament.

Run a local and pool 1-2 dollars per person to get a powersaves. They're 20 bucks. Almost 0% chance of bricking your game (literally 0% if you have any idea how to run a computer program and know basic safety stuff with removing devices from your cpu). It's simply worth it to have one regardless of customs (especially for anyone that has a 3DS and wants to back up their games. Players that wanna do challenge runs or people that want to let friends borrow games are good examples).

Also, using someone not knowing a matchup as an example of customs carrying you isn't a good idea honestly. I guarantee you that a lot of people had the exact same problem with Regi and his default Game and Watch that Mav had with Brawler. >_>

 

[WritersBlah]

The reason ZeRo didn't use customs is that 1111 Sheik is the best set and 1111 Diddy is arguably the best set as well (he prefers normal Up B). There isn't some aversion to using customs -- he was using the best sets for his characters, which just so happens to be default. Don't make more out that then there is.

He has actually stated his reasoning for disliking customs, which basically boils down to certain custom moves being unhealthy and making the game more unbalanced. He also has the pretty common opinion that creating an effective banlist is impossible in this community because it just turns into infinite debate...also probably true.

Nah, I understand why he went default with the characters that he chose (the only thing I could've seen him going for would've been penetrating needles, but again, more sidegrade than straight upgrade) so that doesn't upset me.

Also, I've seen that "infinite debate" argument being touted around by a lot of anti-customs people recently, and though I personally don't agree with it, I really don't have any legitimate counter-points to it. I wonder what @ Amazing Ampharos 's or @Thinkaman's response would be.

 

[thehard]

I dunno, he did make a point to say "I won the tournament without using customs" on Twitter, as if that was an accomplishment.

 

[Unknownkid]

ZeRo is adamant about not using customs, it would be kinda strange for him to abuse them when he dislikes them.

I wish the same can be said about Esam & Friends with Grandmaster Dabuz.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Complicates matchup data?!?

So what if the next smash bris has 100 characters? Should we only use half so that poor zero and the other top tiers don't have to do research?? I get that the top players are good but how dose that make their opinions any more valid than ours? We know the advanced techniques and have access to the same knowledge they do, they just have some finger dexterity we don't.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Complicates matchup data?!?

So what if the next smash bris has 100 characters? Should we only use half so that poor zero and the other top tiers don't have to do research?? I get that the top players are good but how dose that make their opinions any more valid than ours? We know the advanced techniques and have access to the same knowledge they do, they just have some finger dexterity we don't.

I think he meant it as more complicated for newcomers and average players.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I think he meant it as more complicated for newcomers and average players.

The point still stands, because the smash brothers games have only added more characters as its gone. By that logic we shouldn't use DLC characters because even one character creates so many new matchups and possible changes to the tier list.

 

[neohopeSTF]

The point still stands, because the smash brothers games have only added more characters as its gone. By that logic we shouldn't use DLC characters because even one character creates so many new matchups and possible changes to the tier list.

Its more like customs to counter customs. Customs to counter certain characters. Its alot to learn for a newcomer that won't be able to readily get them since they are RNG based, and before you say "You also have to unlock stages and characters" you can get all the characters and stages in a couple of hours.

 

[WritersBlah]

Its more like customs to counter customs. Customs to counter certain characters. Its alot to learn for a newcomer that won't people to readily get them since they are RNG based, and before you say "You also have to unlock stages and characters" you can get all the characters and stages in a couple of hours.

Right, like it didn't take forever to unlock everything in Melee (20 hours for Mewtwo, beat Classic with everyone for G&W, beat all event matches for FD), which is something I dunno everybody who bought Melee did. I'm sure everyone who plays competitive did, and it'd be kind of silly for someone to not have everything now, but as a young'in, it took me several years to unlock everything in Melee. Now, does that compare with the fact that all custom moves are RNG-based unlocks that take forever to get all of? I'd say no, but for anyone who's just breaking into competitive, I think it's a fair analogy to make.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Its more like customs to counter customs. Customs to counter certain characters. Its alot to learn for a newcomer that won't be able to readily get them since they are RNG based, and before you say "You also have to unlock stages and characters" you can get all the characters and stages in a couple of hours.

Whether the analogy is sufficient or not is debatable and I see where your coming from with the unlocking thing. That aside though, don't you think that a newcomer is bound to be overwhelmed anyways? There is no way you can be prepared for your first tournament and banning customs isn't going to fix that.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I have no idea. IMO they're not good, they harm or help characters, thus not changing balance, and the metagame itself is confusing. I want them to go. But they help Kirby a lot please don't remove customs NOOOOOOOOOOO................

 

[neohopeSTF]

Whether the analogy is sufficient or not is debatable and I see where your coming from with the unlocking thing. That aside though, don't you think that a newcomer is bound to be overwhelmed anyways? There is no way you can be prepared for your first tournament and banning customs isn't going to fix that.

It just kinda adds another barrier to getting in and playing. Doesn't help that they can't be used online with strangers(this isn't too big but alot of people trying to get in can only do For Glory and the likes).

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

It just kinda adds another barrier to getting in and playing. Doesn't help that they can't be used online with strangers(this isn't too big but alot of people trying to get in can only do For Glory and the likes).

Oh how I wish there was a custom for glory... But anyways don't we WANT to encourage the new smash players to have to come out to our venues and friendly get togethers? We want our community to grow so i believe anyone who wants to take smash to the next level should start by joining their local seen AND THEN entering their tournaments once they are comfortable with their local players and meta. Customs incentivize this.

 

[Uncle Honey]

I would also strongly advise you not to just listen to top players; make your own decisions. Top players have different wants and needs from a game than you; they make money at every tournament with what is known to work right now while you (I'm presuming) generally pay money on the weekend to enjoy your hobby. Balance is in many ways a threat to them whereas it really can do nothing but help you. Of course I'm sure my motives can be challenged as well... as could anyone's. I just think it's very important to think for yourself; letting the judgments of others supersede your own judgments is letting the interests of others supersede your own.

I am glad there are some people that understand this. Top players are indeed good at what they do, but their opinions can often be misleading.