What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[blackghost]

If you're practicing for evo, why practice for a set that won't be there? Why would a TO want to do that if the goal is practice for evo?

The biggest issue with customs is that the CMP cannot feasibly keep up with the metagame. As much effort that goes into it, you're still not placating everyone.

No i meant was that evo had to preload the sets somehow to help keep that many players on track with matches. Locals and even most smash majors should let sets be uploaded

 

[verbatim]

If you're practicing for evo, why practice for a set that won't be there? Why would a TO want to do that if the goal is practice for evo?

The biggest issue with customs is that the CMP cannot feasibly keep up with the metagame. As much effort that goes into it, you're still not placating everyone.

No decision's going to placate everyone. Realistically speaking, at the end of the day the downside of having to wait to update if a character's best or near best set isn't in the current TEN SETS is no where near enough to use as a full stop anti-custom argument.

 

[Pyr]

No decision's going to placate everyone. Realistically speaking, at the end of the day the downside of having to wait to update if a character's best or near best set isn't in the current TEN SETS is no where near enough to use as a full stop anti-custom argument.

Na. No decision will placate everyone. But the logistics from wait time, to agreeing on the sets, and to having a fraction of a fraction of the players decide on which base eight sets to use (2 kept for people to upload their own) souring the taste in non-SWF users are all very real, very major concerns. This discounts additional tournament time for players uploading their sets, judgement calls if a set needs to be checked for effects/hacks/etc, machine issues if Evo-style 10-set locked customs happens at a major again, and general complaints to TOs all taking up tourny time.

Na. Not a full stop argument, but one that still needs to be addressed and smoothed out if customs want a major future. I mean, let me give direct examples:

Me, being the scrub I am, played Doc for a week and found a set I liked. I GOT THE SET IN SLOT, LIKE, 4 OF THE OFFICIAL SET FOR EVO. Because I made a single post on the Doc forums with a little justification. I took a slot on a character I only played for a week because I happened to post here. Naturally, a LOT of people have taken issue to this fact. A better way will need to be found, but I don't think that's possible because of representation issues.

Also, for tourny time: Pool 39A never forget. One of our systems had NOTHING unlocked. We had to wait for a new system to be brought over. Luckily it was the 8 AM pools, so time wasn't a huge deal. People didn't even start getting DQ'd until, like, 9. But imagine a smaller tourny with less resources having this sort of issue. You lose an entire setup. And these things WILL happen. It's unavoidable, from a TO error or because Stan brought the wrong WiiU. It makes how Evo did it rather risky.

Realistically speaking, you can't discount customs using that one thing you mentioned all by itself. But it's just a small part of a huge whole, and is a very real issue that needs to be addressed with something more in depth then "don't worry, might maybe not happen sorta cause 10 (really 8) sets, so it doesn't matter."

Oh, and the average player will likely not want to waste a few days worth of work to get a separate system (which they might never play) and a game (which they might never play) to upload a set (that they'd always use) after unlocking all the customs (again), or spending more money for a game genie-esk device to unlock them all, all because they can't just make it on the (most likely non-custom-unlocked) system, all because of the time it takes and how the CMP is set up. So, as a TO, you have a choice: Let them make the set, and take 1-2 more minutes per set, possibly PER GAME (because micro-advantages are advantages), OR disallow this, require an upload from a 3DS, and risk losing a part of your attendance.

Really, really unattractive issue that still doesn't have a real fix IIRC. IIRinC, let me know. Just remember: the 75% of people Silver 1, or worse, in League of Legends? Their why League is thriving like it is. Can't just **** the small guys. They might not be the best, but they hold the game up along with you.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Na. No decision will placate everyone. But the logistics from wait time, to agreeing on the sets, and to having a fraction of a fraction of the players decide on which base eight sets to use (2 kept for people to upload their own) souring the taste in non-SWF users are all very real, very major concerns. This discounts additional tournament time for players uploading their sets, judgement calls if a set needs to be checked for effects/hacks/etc, machine issues if Evo-style 10-set locked customs happens at a major again, and general complaints to TOs all taking up tourny time.

Na. Not a full stop argument, but one that still needs to be addressed and smoothed out if customs want a major future. I mean, let me give direct examples:

Me, being the scrub I am, played Doc for a week and found a set I liked. I GOT THE SET IN SLOT, LIKE, 4 OF THE OFFICIAL SET FOR EVO. Because I made a single post on the Doc forums with a little justification. I took a slot on a character I only played for a week because I happened to post here. Naturally, a LOT of people have taken issue to this fact. A better way will need to be found, but I don't think that's possible because of representation issues.

Also, for tourny time: Pool 39A never forget. One of our systems had NOTHING unlocked. We had to wait for a new system to be brought over. Luckily it was the 8 AM pools, so time wasn't a huge deal. People didn't even start getting DQ'd until, like, 9. But imagine a smaller tourny with less resources having this sort of issue. You lose an entire setup. And these things WILL happen. It's unavoidable, from a TO error or because Stan brought the wrong WiiU. It makes how Evo did it rather risky.

Realistically speaking, you can't discount customs using that one thing you mentioned all by itself. But it's just a small part of a huge whole, and is a very real issue that needs to be addressed with something more in depth then "don't worry, might maybe not happen sorta cause 10 (really 8) sets, so it doesn't matter."

Oh, and the average player will likely not want to waste a few days worth of work to get a separate system (which they might never play) and a game (which they might never play) to upload a set (that they'd always use) after unlocking all the customs (again), or spending more money for a game genie-esk device to unlock them all, all because they can't just make it on the (most likely non-custom-unlocked) system, all because of the time it takes and how the CMP is set up. So, as a TO, you have a choice: Let them make the set, and take 1-2 more minutes per set, possibly PER GAME (because micro-advantages are advantages), OR disallow this, require an upload from a 3DS, and risk losing a part of your attendance.

Really, really unattractive issue that still doesn't have a real fix IIRC. IIRinC, let me know. Just remember: the 75% of people Silver 1, or worse, in League of Legends? Their why League is thriving like it is. Can't just **** the small guys. They might not be the best, but they hold the game up along with you.

FINNALY a decent issue for us to talk about. I'm sick of these anti-custom people B****ing about the same arguments that have been proven wrong.

We may just have to come to the realization that smash tournaments with customs on just may take longer. The only other option I see would be to post all the sets that will be available ahead of time to let the players know their options. Being realistic here though I don't think this is that big of a deal, not all sets are going to be competitively viable. We can probably safely say that there are very few characters that will actually need all 10 sets to satisfy players.

Or many we just lay out all the sets at the beginning of the tournament and have all the dr. Mario's vote on the top 10 sets.

 

[blackghost]

FINNALY a decent issue for us to talk about. I'm sick of these anti-custom people B****ing about the same arguments that have been proven wrong.

We may just have to come to the realization that smash tournaments with customs on just may take longer. The only other option I see would be to post all the sets that will be available ahead of time to let the players know their options. Being realistic here though I don't think this is that big of a deal, not all sets are going to be competitively viable. We can probably safely say that there are very few characters that will actually need all 10 sets to satisfy players.

Or many we just lay out all the sets at the beginning of the tournament and have all the dr. Mario's vote on the top 10 sets.

I agree with your idea tournaments already post legal stages, rules sets, starting stages and melee tournments still always post whether or not wobbling is allowed. Smash 4 it should have the sets pre tournament.

 

[Evello]

Is there a way we can (politely!) contact Sakurai and remind him that we care about custom balance? A nicely-worded tweet or something?

This is actually not a terrible idea. Nintendo is sponsoring tourneys and such now, so they have a legitimate financial interest in the success of SSB tourneys. Obviously a random tweet from you or me will be disregarded by them, but if we could somehow get one or more influential TO's (think Evo or Apex) to contact Nintendo of America, they might be able to get through. Especially if they frame it from the perspective that they are trying to determine the feasibility of incorporating one of the most marketable features of SSB4, the customization, into tourney play for millions of people to see. Unfortunately, even with said TO's expressing interest in customs, I don't think it's remotely possible that the dev team will change their plans to suit the whims of a few American players. But the TO's might very well be able to simply find out if the team already has plans to balance any custom moves that are proven to be unfair in large tournaments.

That would honestly go a long way toward settling this debate. If we hear that the team doesn't plan to extensively balance broken custom moves (though they've already tweaked some moves to a degree), then that's a huge blow to custom moves. On the other hand, actual confirmation of the dev team's plans to balance customs would alleviate one of the biggest concerns many people have with customs (if not the biggest concern).

 

[Scarlet Jile]

The "logistics" side of things is coming from a place of skepticism that has surprisingly little basis. We ran a nearly 2,000-man tournament with customs on at the very first Smash 4 EVO, and it went absolutely fine. That was the least prepared and experienced we could have been (and will ever be again) for handling an event of this nature.

Going forward, we will iron out the kinks and develop all the best practices for making these events run just as smoothly as customs-off events. The more important matter at hand is developing a customs ruleset that minimizes non-competitive elements and maximizes character diversity/viability.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

The "logistics" side of things is coming from a place of skepticism that surprisingly little basis. We ran a nearly 2,000-man tournament with customs on at the very first Smash 4 EVO, and it went absolutely fine. That was the least prepared and experienced we could have (and will ever be again) for handling an event of this nature.

Going forward, we will iron out the kinks and develop all the best practices for making these events run just as smoothly as customs-off events. The more important matter at hand is developing a customs ruleset that minimized non-competitive elements and maximizes character diversity/viability.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS should be our main focus, rather than arguing perpetually about how things are too hard to plan when we have already done it before!

 

[DunnoBro]

I'd prefer to hear from gaming generations before we assume things went "absolutely fine"

They were in charge of set loading and from experience I know it isn't a particularly fun process (though I rarely have help or ample time)

 

[Jiggly]

People keep saying that the methods of gaining customs are the main issue, even though it really isnt. Do you guys really think a customs DLC pack would push people to be in favor of thiem?

 

[Radical Larry]

Alright everyone, time for this to come out about Custom moves. Now I have been pro-custom moves for a long while now, even before both games were released, I was pro-customs. But there is a lot of justification for customs to be within Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS and always turned on, and I will give you reasons to interpret and understand custom setups and how to utilize them to their fullest in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS.

First off, I'd like to say this: Custom Moves in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS are akin to character variations within games such as: Ultra Street Fighter IV, Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance, MK: Deception, MK: Armageddon and MK: X. All of these games, these fighters, amongst many others, have some sort of variation for each of their characters to use. Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS are no different from these, as all the custom moves are akin to the Character Variations within the games. The tournament rules for MK: X allow for the usage of character optimization and varying the character, as not everyone has the same taste in their style. You may see a Quan Chi with Sorcerer, Warlock or Summoner, and Erron Black with Gunslinger, Outlaw or Marksman. There's no one specific setup to suit everyone's tastes, and not everyone will devote their time to just one simple character variation whatsoever, and so, they expand to suit their needs.

A little side note is that in MK: X, the character variations swaps the characters' signature (special) moves around, but the characters' normal moves are untouched for the most part. This sounds vividly similar to a certain game we all play.

Super Smash Bros. is like this, but they utilize a different method. This includes 10 slots instead of 3, and includes the multiple ways to customize and optimize your character to the fullest extent. So you may play as a Link with the 1213 (Meteor Smasher) moveset or you may play as a Link with the 3211 (Quick Timer) moveset. The same goes with any other character you utilize, including Sheik with her 3111 (Cheap Spammer) moveset. Everyone has their own tastes as to what they want to have and utilize within the game, and everyone has a different opinion on what to use. Personally, if I used Ganondorf, I'd use his 1322 (King of Edges) moveset, because you get to utilize his Flame Chain, Dark Fists and Wizard's Dropkick.

Again, everyone has their own style and preference of play, and Super Smash Bros. is just like USFIV and MK: X in terms of character optimization. (Please note that all the names I gave the characters' movesets to are just nicknames and not official by any such means.)

Secondly is the term of balance. While yes, having Villager use a sapling that will trip you is frustrating enough, and Link using his Meteor Bombs is annoying, you can easily just dodge them or get out of their way. All custom moves are balanced out for many purposes. With Ganondorf's 1322 moveset, you lose the ability to grab your opponent since you use Flame Chain and Dark Fists, and you have no meteor in Wizard's Dropkick and it is less powerful. However, these are balanced by being able to edge-guard better, better KO prowess and recovery, and better recovery and set ups respectively. That is an example of how custom moves can be balanced out for the better. Customs also have higher risks, as with Villager using his little tripping sapling in Timber Counter might allow for the opponent to get tripped, but if Villager misplaces it, the opponent can just simply camp freely and would have to have Villager rush in on them if they know what he is doing.

Again, everything has a balance to it and custom moves can often be more balanced out than the normal special moves. Compare Ganondorf's Wizard's Dropkick to Wizard's Foot. You sacrifice pure KO power from Foot that allows Ganondorf to KO at relatively low percents, just for better recovery and the ability to avoid projectiles with the right timing. You also lose a meteor and damage, but to also compensate, you get better set ups and a more horizontal knockback angle.

Custom moves do not break the game. Characters are almost the same, with the exception of having new special moves with different properties. Now you all might have the big excuse of customs being too hard to find on the Wii U version and whatnot. However, this can easily be remedied if one decides to do one of the few processes I took into getting almost every custom move in the game:

1) Complete the Challenges
2) Smash Tour
3) Classic Mode
4) Crazy Orders (This will give you the most Custom Moves in the quickest amount of time.)
5) Transferring moves from 3DS to Wii U. (This is faster, but remember, this isn't able to help you grind up.)

Utilizing Crazy Orders has helped me garner almost every custom move in the game, and if you use Smash Tour, there are much, much higher chances to get a Crazy Orders Pass and enough gold. The best methods, rather than transferring from 3DS to Wii U, are to go to Smash Tour, get tickets (which happen occasionally), play Crazy Orders, and repeat. If there are Challenge-based Customs, make sure to do that as well. It helps a lot. (There are Challenge-based Customs, like Dire Hydrant)

If I could expand this more, I would, but I will let this open up for debate and let other people give more knowledge on custom Specials than I can ever give. I hope you understand that customs are like variations to each character and do have balances, with the former needing to be a big argument since other games, like MK: X, allow for customization and optimization without bad scrutiny. It has been almost a year now since Smash 3DS and Wii U have released, and despite it still being almost a year, we can learn a lot from the time we have for these games' lifespans.

We have ways to figure out how to deal with custom moves the same way we have ways to figure out how to deal with every other characters' moves. But these are my thoughts, what are yours? Leave a response below the OP and remember, be nice to others' opinions. Anyone's opinions, pro or anti-custom, are allowed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think it would help considerably, yes.

 

[Unknownkid]

It will be nice but I doubt. Some of the customs require beating an event in challenge mode.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

People keep saying that the methods of gaining customs are the main issue, even though it really isnt. Do you guys really think a customs DLC pack would push people to be in favor of thiem?

Considering that one of the primary arguments against customs in my area is the tedium of unlocking customs and resultant difficulty for practice and TO setups, yes, I think an "unlock customs" DLC would do wonders for widespread acceptance.

 

[Gibbs]

Have we not yet done this topic to death. There are two other active threads on this board with titles discussing customs opinions. While the debate goes in endless unresolvable circles on smashboards and reddit, the next 4 big nationals (Smashcon, Paragon, Skatar, Big House) are all customs off. Almost every region where I know people has customs off now. When the post evo ruleset at my 50+ person weekly was announced as customs off the entire venue erupted in applause and cheers.

Competitors who want to stay relevant for the next half year have to prepare for a non customs meta, and play in that framework. I feel bad for Dapuffster and Aerolink, for pushing their characters so far, but the TOs and other top players have largely spoken are relegating customs to a sideshow. And judging by the matter of fact tone of Juggleguy's Big House ruleset post, no amount of pro customs rhetoric will change that.

 

[Jiggly]

But top players are against it, and I don't think accessibility is the reason... I think it is 1 less con, but not necissarily a pro :/

 

[Pyr]

It'd do a little. Maybe if that DLC came with a "select your moveset on character select option," then it'd have a major impact.

 

[Raijinken]

If only they were apparently being a sideshow instead of outright off and disregarded, I might not feel so sad.

But nothing I've seen or read suggests they're being run as side events. Even the anti-customs appeasers who keep saying "Just run them as side-events" don't seem inclined to actually act on that suggestion.

It's a shame we let a bunch of johns kill the best thing about Smash...

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I'm very pro custom but I don't see the point in wishful thinking. It doesn't sound like something sakuri would do. But I do believe that would greatly increase the number of custom tourneys.

I'd plop down $20 for that DLC. Though I don't believe many others would pay that price.

 

[Radical Larry]

If only they were apparently being a sideshow instead of outright off and disregarded, I might not feel so sad.

But nothing I've seen or read suggests they're being run as side events. Even the anti-customs appeasers who keep saying "Just run them as side-events" don't seem inclined to actually act on that suggestion.

It's a shame we let a bunch of johns kill the best thing about Smash...

The last post is absolutely correct actually; basically what having customs off equates to is people being Johns about it instead of expanding knowledge of custom moves. The Anti-Custom Appeasers think of customs as a "cheap way to win", when in reality they are meant to be there to add depth to the characters.

Everything an Anti-Custom Appeaser states can have a more factual counterargument to them that would put them to never ending saltiness and shame. If they state customs aren't balanced, facts say that they are indeed balanced. If they state that they shouldn't be a part of the game, then facts say that Sakurai wanted this from the very beginning of the game's development and wanted people to experiment. If they state customs would break a character, facts say that characters would be more balanced in the game as a result of customs.

Honestly, customs should be allowed by tournaments because of the facts that surround them against the biased opinions of people against customs. It's almost a year in and despite the vast majority's claims, the facts of the lesser minority should ring true.

 

[Gibbs]

Doesn't the burden of organizing customs events fall upon the people who want to play in them? Isn't that how the vast majority of smash tourneys run? If customs is really the best thing about Smash, then the pro customs grassroots movement is inevitable? I mean that's the lesson we're supposed to take away from Melee and PM.

There's no amount of facts that can convince people to play the customs meta if they think its a hassle or just not fun. Opinions are just opinions, but attitudes towards the game drive attendance and the pro customs crowd as vocal and as logically sound as they are can't get people to play a game they don't want to play.

 

[Raijinken]

The last post is absolutely correct actually; basically what having customs off equates to is people being Johns about it instead of expanding knowledge of custom moves. The Anti-Custom Appeasers think of customs as a "cheap way to win", when in reality they are meant to be there to add depth to the characters.

Everything an Anti-Custom Appeaser states can have a more factual counterargument to them that would put them to never ending saltiness and shame. If they state customs aren't balanced, facts say that they are indeed balanced. If they state that they shouldn't be a part of the game, then facts say that Sakurai wanted this from the very beginning of the game's development and wanted people to experiment. If they state customs would break a character, facts say that characters would be more balanced in the game as a result of customs.

Honestly, customs should be allowed by tournaments because of the facts that surround them against the biased opinions of people against customs. It's almost a year in and despite the vast majority's claims, the facts of the lesser minority should ring true.

While I agree with your intent, I'd actually use some different counterarguments.

If they state customs aren't balanced, I'll point to Sheik and pre-1.08 Diddy. If they state they break a character, I'll point to Sheik and pre-1.08 Diddy.

The only, only valid anti-customs argument is that it is a complete and total nightmare for an individual, much less a tournament, to set up and implement. That's it. Anything related to gameplay or balance is an excuse when you consider the broader picture. I'd hoped EVO would make that perfectly clear, but it turns out we were screwed from the start. If the vocal majority are so ready to gripe and complain, then unfortunately the current tournament model requires TOs to listen to the gripers and complainers. No amount of "this statistically and objectively improves balance" can drown out the salty cries of someone repeatedly throwing themselves into an exploding balloon and calling it unfair jank.

Doesn't the burden of organizing customs events fall upon the people who want to play in them? Isn't that how the vast majority of smash tourneys run? If customs is really the best thing about Smash, then the pro customs grassroots movement is inevitable? I mean that's the lesson we're supposed to take away from Melee and PM.

There's no amount of facts that can convince people to play the customs meta if they think its a hassle or just not fun. Opinions are just opinions, but attitudes towards the game drive attendance and the pro customs crowd as vocal and as logically sound as they are can't get people to play a game they don't want to play.

If (as you and others have indicated) the "rest" of the scene is so diehard anti-custom, then it stands to reason that the effort required to gather enough players to host a notable tournament would far outdo the effort it takes to even unlock them in the first place. Trust me, I'd love to have a large enough Smash social network to regularly host customs-only events. But when, especially at the higher end of skill, people are ultimately going to go where the money goes, it's not practical.

 

[Radical Larry]

But wait, if people are able to hack into the files of Smash 4 and get all the information of the patches out and whatnot, couldn't they just send a statement onto how to hack and unlock all the customs, characters, etc. for the tournaments? I mean that'd be a very complicated method, sure, but at the hands of a technical genius who knows how to hack a Wii U, it'd be very, very possible to unlock every custom for a tournament.

Aside from that, it was easy for me to go to Crazy Orders, Classic, Trophy Rush and Smash Tour to get my customs. Like, every time I went to them it'd be at least 9 to 10 customs a day. Of course, as time went on, I couldn't manage to get all the customs yet, but I'm almost there.

Lastly, there's a thing called porting from 3DS to Wii U and setting up before the tournament to the desired rule set for moves. It's not at all hard either, and the bigots are just making it seem like it's extremely hard and that rocket scientists need to do it.

 

[ewItsBoo]

I would personally like customs if you didn't have to cross the pits of Satan to unlock them.

 

[LancerStaff]

The only, only valid anti-customs argument is that it is a complete and total nightmare for an individual, much less a tournament, to set up and implement. That's it. Anything related to gameplay or balance is an excuse when you consider the broader picture. I'd hoped EVO would make that perfectly clear, but it turns out we were screwed from the start. If the vocal majority are so ready to gripe and complain, then unfortunately the current tournament model requires TOs to listen to the gripers and complainers. No amount of "this statistically and objectively improves balance" can drown out the salty cries of someone repeatedly throwing themselves into an exploding balloon and calling it unfair jank.

Doesn't do jack for the balance when we have characters like Zelda and Mewtwo dragging everything down... It's not proven first of all, and second we have balance patches and DLC characters completely devoid of customs making the off meta more and more balanced as time goes on. Unless every 2 & 3 was made worthless then we'd still have the DLC characters ruining the balance.

 

[Pyr]

The only, only valid anti-customs argument is that it is a complete and total nightmare for an individual, much less a tournament, to set up and implement. That's it. Anything related to gameplay or balance is an excuse when you consider the broader picture. I'd hoped EVO would make that perfectly clear, but it turns out we were screwed from the start. If the vocal majority are so ready to gripe and complain, then unfortunately the current tournament model requires TOs to listen to the gripers and complainers. No amount of "this statistically and objectively improves balance" can drown out the salty cries of someone repeatedly throwing themselves into an exploding balloon and calling it unfair jank.

For one, Evo showed us, if anything, that balance at the top end of things was mostly unaffected. Balance was improved by... What? 3 characters reaching top 32 instead of 3 others? That's not significant. Even out of 2k people, it's not significant. Most of what happened is that already good characters got different specials. Besides, balance has always been the worst justification for the implementation of customs because it's so easily disprove. <tangent> I mean, who cares if a character goes from the bottom to mid? You STILL need secondary to do anything with them. </tangent>

Secondly, there are other issues besides set up and implementation. Those issues can't just be ignored and written off. But let's pretend they can. You make them sound more minor when things like agreeing on what the base 8 sets are, tourny time from people uploading/setting up unique sets, and system issues with the pre-set sets. And all those have sub issues that need to be addressed.

Can't pretend huge issues are anything but huge issues.

On another note, I think customs will fail not because of any flaws or issues, but because the advocates for them are unwilling to fix those flaws and issues. Sure, we've got a few people here and there, but a lot of scenes are dropping customs for a lot of reasons. There are a TON of threads and a lot of discussion... But where is the action? Y'all want custom events? Fix the issues and MAKE YOUR DREAMS COME TRUE. =D

 

[AeonXero]

Not really, considering he called for a diddy ban then used him

Lol that's because he actually likes Diddy. He hates customs. But I see your point.

 

[DunnoBro]

A DLC pack would help TOs be able to cater to their pro-customs players with side events, but in the grand scale of things I don't think it would help too much.

Though, that in combination with tournament mode to create an easy way to practice customs would probably help a lot.

 

[DunnoBro]

For one, Evo showed us, if anything, that balance at the top end of things was mostly unaffected. Balance was improved by... What? 3 characters reaching top 32 instead of 3 others? That's not significant.

Considering a minority of players actually invested into using pure custom chars themselves due to the shaky future of customs overall, that's actually fairly significant. Don't pretend like the amount of players who primarily use chars only good in custom aren't a stark minority.

 

[Pyr]

Considering a minority of players actually invested into using pure custom chars themselves due to the shaky future of customs overall, that's actually fairly significant. Don't pretend like the amount of players who primarily use chars only good in custom aren't a stark minority.

I'm not. I can understand the first 1k people out doing that, but top 256 doing that? Top 128? The further in you get, the more likely it is that customs were used to their fullest extent on the "bad" characters. No, it's still very insignificant as far as who got where with who. Things were not very different to what they would of been without customs.

But hey. There have now been several customs-on tournaments. You'd think we'd see something, anything, that's more then a blip on the radar. The only note-worthy effects I've seen from nearly all events have been a slightly different tail-end of top 32 customs-wise, with a bit of "I don't know how to deal with this" jank in the middle. That part doesn't really exist anymore.

And how do you mean characters only good in customs, exactly? Like, characters that jump tiers or are "usable" only in a custom environment? Evo definitely showed that, even if you jump from low to mid, you're still a mid tier competing with the big boys. You can't sit there and tell me that, if customs had a significant effect enough effect on those characters, we wouldn't see more then 3 in the top 32. I mean, come now... The balance additions for customs are non-existent. They literally just shuffle who's where in Mid and low, and, because of the existence of Zelda, the gap isn't even lessened between the beginning of high and the bottom.

To be blunt, we shouldn't take away accessibility because an F tier becomes a D tier. That justification is easily the worst pro-custom people use.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'm not. I can understand the first 1k people out doing that, but top 256 doing that? Top 128? The further in you get, the more likely it is that customs were used to their fullest extent on the "bad" characters. No, it's still very insignificant as far as who got where with who. Things were not very different to what they would of been without customs.

That's simply not true. I myself didn't even enter because I didn't want to bother practicing for a meta that probably won't exist in a few weeks.

And I only discovered custom duck hunt was viable because I used default duck hunt and likely understand that character more than anyone. If I used another char, I'd never have experimented and we'd likely never know he was viable.

Why would you invest into a character that will be rendered non-viable if customs don't stick around? Especially if said custom char isn't significantly better than an easier to learn default character like sheik? Or hell, you're just plain comfortable with your default char?

The only players that made a splash with customs really were character loyalists like Johnnumbers, Dkwill, Dapuffster, etc.

And how do you mean characters only good in customs, exactly? Like, characters that jump tiers or are "usable" only in a custom environment?

Palutena, Ganondorf, Dk, Duck Hunt, Samus, Mii Brawler, Wii Fit Trainer, Mega Man, I could go on but the fact is we simply don't know exactly how many characters are viable in customs. ONE event is not an indication of all viable characters. That's silly.

Also, it's hardly going from "F to D" tier. WFT is considered one of the worst in the default metagame, and yet made top 32 in customs. Your bias and ignorance is ridiculous.

I mean, come now... The balance additions for customs are non-existent.

I won't speak on balance as a whole, but you don't seem to understand the mindset of an aspiring competitive player. It simply would not be a smart decision to practice a custom char under these conditions:

1: Likely not easier to learn due to a developed meta for top chars like sheik.
2: Only ONE confirmed big event with customs. Meaning less high-level practice.
3: Overall volatile future with legality or prospect of patches (which is likely needed for legality)
4: Probably already have a default character

End of story, anyone who picked up custom DK for this tournament instead of default sheik is an idiot, and likely didn't get as far as the ones who did choose sheik.

 

[Pyr]

That's simply not true. I myself didn't even enter because I didn't want to bother practicing for a meta that probably won't exist in a few weeks.

And I only discovered custom duck hunt was viable because I used default duck hunt. If I used another char, I'd never have experimented and we'd likely never know he was viable.

Why would you invest into a character that will be rendered non-viable if customs don't stick around? Especially if said custom char isn't significantly better than an easier to learn default character like sheik? Or hell, you're just plain comfortable with your default char?

The only players that made a splash with customs really were character loyalists like Johnnumbers, Dkwill, Dapuffster, etc.

Palutena, Ganondorf, Dk, Duck Hunt, Samus, Mii Brawler, Wii Fit Trainer, Mega Man, I could go on but the fact is we simply don't know exactly how many characters are viable in customs. ONE event is not an indication of all viable characters. That's silly.

I won't speak on balance as a whole, but you don't seem to understand the mindset of an aspiring competitive player. It simply would not be a smart decision to practice a custom char under these conditions:

1: Likely not easier to learn due to a developed meta for top chars like sheik.
2: Only ONE confirmed big event with customs. Meaning less high-level practice.
3: Overall volatile future with legality or prospect of patches (which is likely needed for legality)

End of story, anyone who picked up custom DK for this tournament instead of default sheik is an idiot, and likely didn't get as far as the ones who did choose sheik.

You'd use them for the same reasons people used UU in Melee or Brawl: you enjoy the character. You can't tell me that only 3 decent players saw potential in a few characters in a customs environment, can you? Characters that didn't see much use otherwise? Even unknowns/little-knowns should of done -something- noteworthy by now. I mean, Evo was just the biggest dataset we've had. We have a lot of smaller customs-on tournaments. We had high-profile things with customs. The trend hasn't been that someone got really far with a bad character because customs did something. They got that far because they ALWAYS got that far. How many exceptions to this exist? How many upsets past the beginning days of the CMP, like ADHD and his Villager? What did customs DO?

Evo just confirms it: not much at all. All "oh, people didn't want to invest in something that was uncertain" is is an excuse. We'd of seen something by now. Something major and consistent. We just haven't. That's just how customs work: Replace 25% of the moves between the A and the B button and you still have a character that still has 75% of a meh kit.

And you can't honestly say that, with months of prep and training, that only 3 out of the top 32, 3 out of 1.5k unique players, were good enough to get to top 32 using a good-in-customs-only character.

-

Palutena, Ganondorf, Dk, Duck Hunt, Samus, Mii Brawler, Wii Fit Trainer, Mega Man. Of those, Palutena, Ganon, DK, Brawler, and Wii Fit receive a noticeable jump in power, both in theory and practice. In reality, none of them are really doing anything, save for Average Joe at Xanadu every other week and the big 3 of top 32 (but wasn't one of them Charizard?). He still does just as well when they're off most the time. The others? They leave much to be desired because there are just fundamental issues with their kits that customs don't solve. Only example there that is noteworthy is Mega Man, but how much talk of Mega Man is there? How bad is he pre-customs, anyway?

See, again, Evo was just the biggest event. We have dozens on Xanadus, a dozen big tournaments, hundreds of smaller tournaments... Where are the changes customs brings to bring the roster's difference in power, from Sheik to the very worst, closer together? If I was a betting man, I'd bet that we'd see those 8 characters exactly 9% more often then we would if we looked at that player's history in a custom's off environment. We've had months. Where are the results? How are they different from customs off in the region they were held? Was there any? I'd put money on that there was not.

-

To address these points, I'll match the numbers:

1) Customs aren't hard to learn. At all. Playing with them on and with them off is really, really interchangeable. Play styles for most of the characters remain the same or are simply amplified. For the others, they enable other play styles, but, again, you can't say that, with all this time, only 3 people were able to overcome this and develop this? Smash isn't that complex.

2) Evo may have been the only big confirmed event, but, judging by how many scenes are now dropping customs, there was a lot of people practicing specifically FOR Evo. This ignores all the smaller, middle-sized, and large customs-on events that did happen between now and the release of the CMP's Evo release.

3) This you have a fair point on. Customs will likely die because we have people going into pages on all the theoretical benefits, but never actually address the counterpoints or the flaws are the things that are saying, strongly, "you might be wrong with this theory." I mean, you're the first person to fully respond to a post of mine without cherry-picking a point and going from there.

-

And you're right. They should of picked Sheik, but they should have because customs don't fix bad characters' flaws, period. This game may be more balanced then the last 3 games, but there are still characters that aren't worth the time right now. That is the entire point from the first, initial post of mine: customs doing anything for balance is the single worst justification for keeping them here, because it is wrong. Customs were given the time they asked for, and they haven't shown anything.

 

[DunnoBro]

You'd use them for the same reasons people used UU in Melee or Brawl: you enjoy the character.

Loool

The people spending hundreds of dollars to participate and win these tournaments don't do it solely because they enjoy the characters

Let's take another look at melee and brawl and see an abundance of a certain character due to this reason.

In reality, none of them are really doing anything, save for Average Joe at Xanadu every other week

Average joe actually always loses to my custom duck hunt, which has won xanadu and several other custom tournaments. Along with my custom ganon.

You have literally no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Pyr]

Loool

The people spending hundreds of dollars to participate and win these tournaments don't do it solely because they enjoy the characters

Let's take another look at melee and brawl and see an abundance of a certain character due to this reason.



Average joe actually always loses to my custom duck hunt, which has won xanadu and several other custom tournaments. Along with my custom ganon.

You have literally no idea what you're talking about.

A few pages of text, but cherry-picking specific things. I take back what I said about you not doing so. You ignored all the meat and went directly for those things. Good job, bro. Good job. You know, if you don't have an argument you don't have to post.

Haven't seen you win anything in a long while btw.

 

[DunnoBro]

Haven't seen you win anything in a long while btw.

I won TCG last sunday, but yea. Players tend to do worse for a while after they stop using the main they've had since before the game even officially came out.

 

[Pyr]

I won TCG last sunday, but yea. Players tend to do worse for a while after they stop using the main they've had since before the game even officially came out.

No johns.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So Pyr is taking the "Customs become irrelevant at the large scale" route?
Dude, seriously? From all the anti-custom arguments, you're taking the one that ditches off the effort of dedicated players?

 

[Pyr]

So Pyr is taking the "Customs become irrelevant at the large scale" route?
Dude, seriously? From all the anti-custom arguments, you're taking the one that ditches off the effort of dedicated players?

In this thread, I guess? I'm pointing out that there just aren't results and that customs aren't changing much at all.

Ya, thousands upon thousands of man hours might be lost if customs doesn't take off and last until this game dies, but that's the sad reality that has been present all this time: it could be for nothing. I mean... Is there results that show that customs have added something beyond some fun for people who play specific characters? Is all that effort worth the reward we're seeing? Have I missed something big that will make me look like a fool.

If you think so, then why? No one ever answers that, so it's kind of re-enforcing my view here. It's always like DunnoBro's response: oh, there were background issues and there is other stuff going on that prevents results or what we expected, but it'll come! No matter what the issue or the topic against, and hell, for customs, responses are not really constructive at all, or are simple comments, that are wrong or misguided, that I choose to address (which lead to this mess).

I started the customs thing as an adamant supporter, but I'm not anymore. I made huge walls of text in threads, all for customs, back then. And I can understand the level of loss that could be felt if customs fail completely. That amount of blood and sweat is familiar to me. That said, the efforts of dedicated players being lost was a very real possibility from the beginning. My last page about customs is just one of the many issues that need to be addressed or changed. No amount of dedication will make a difference if one of the cogs on the custom machine breaks the machine altogether, or wears away the machine in the long run. We need to replace the cog, but no one seems to know where to begin looking for tools. If that's going to be an inevitable conclusion of customs, then measures need to be taken to ensure that the loss is minimal to the people that enjoy them, because they are fun and hilarious, but seemingly not viable en masse or with a true emphasis over non-customs.

But ya... Results are the least concerning issue with customs I can see. The logistics side of getting them to work is. I was just responding to a guy, then was responded to, and then, ya. I'm aware of the implications of customs failing at a large scale or as a main event sometimes.

 

[Ghostbone]

Also, it's hardly going from "F to D" tier. WFT is considered one of the worst in the default metagame, and yet made top 32 in customs. Your bias and ignorance is ridiculous.

Just feel like mentioning that default WFT is about as good as custom WFT. She's just the most ridiculously underrated character in the game (and only really relies on customs to the same extent Rosalina does)

I wouldn't really view any character's performance at EVO as being a result of customs. Dapuffster and his mii brawler, as well as probably captawesum (however his tag is spelled) being the exceptions.

Customs don't actually shake up the metagame very much outside of miis (which should be legal with any ruleset anyway) and Palutena (sucks for her I guess).

 

[Raijinken]

In this thread, I guess? I'm pointing out that there just aren't results and that customs aren't changing much at all.

Ya, thousands upon thousands of man hours might be lost if customs doesn't take off and last until this game dies, but that's the sad reality that has been present all this time: it could be for nothing. I mean... Is there results that show that customs have added something beyond some fun for people who play specific characters? Is all that effort worth the reward we're seeing? Have I missed something big that will make me look like a fool.

If you think so, then why? No one ever answers that, so it's kind of re-enforcing my view here. It's always like DunnoBro's response: oh, there were background issues and there is other stuff going on that prevents results or what we expected, but it'll come! No matter what the issue or the topic against, and hell, for customs, responses are not really constructive at all, or are simple comments, that are wrong or misguided, that I choose to address (which lead to this mess).

I started the customs thing as an adamant supporter, but I'm not anymore. I made huge walls of text in threads, all for customs, back then. And I can understand the level of loss that could be felt if customs fail completely. That amount of blood and sweat is familiar to me. That said, the efforts of dedicated players being lost was a very real possibility from the beginning. My last page about customs is just one of the many issues that need to be addressed or changed. No amount of dedication will make a difference if one of the cogs on the custom machine breaks the machine altogether, or wears away the machine in the long run. We need to replace the cog, but no one seems to know where to begin looking for tools. If that's going to be an inevitable conclusion of customs, then measures need to be taken to ensure that the loss is minimal to the people that enjoy them, because they are fun and hilarious, but seemingly not viable en masse or with a true emphasis over non-customs.

But ya... Results are the least concerning issue with customs I can see. The logistics side of getting them to work is. I was just responding to a guy, then was responded to, and then, ya. I'm aware of the implications of customs failing at a large scale or as a main event sometimes.

Have patches shown any power jumps besides Luigi from 1.0 to 1.01, and Ike and Metaknight going from low-mid and mid to high-mid and high respectively?

May as well never patch. /s

Anyway, it's essentially impossible to gather an arbitrary "enough" data for the amount customs influence the meta when, in the top eight, Abadango was the only player to really get mileage out of his customs. Nario had one or so equipped to his already top-end character, and it didn't help against Sheik. Commentators remarked several times throughout the event that many top players were avoiding them because it wasn't a sound investment of time, due to a large majority of players apparently johning about subjective things like Villager not being fun to play against. People stopped arguing about the logistics, and the "lack of impact," and all of that stuff. People seem to have literally voted it off over an unpopular playstyle.