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What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

Have your opinions changed?


  • Total voters
    861

LimitCrown

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Did it turn out not to be the case? We had a Palutena and two Wii Fit Trainers in top 32. None of the high performing Sheiks really relied on customs, and when they did use customs, it didn't seem to make much of a difference. Even within top 8, customs were definitely instrumental in Abadongo's Wario giving dabuz's Rosalina the business. The magnitude of effect may be lower than you hoped for, but the effect itself seemed very much present to me in a significant way.
I thought that Palutena and Wii Fit Trainer were known to benefit from custom moves anyways. Besides, from what I heard about the tournament, custom moves apparently weren't used very often in general. In any case, some of the high-tier characters have useful custom moves, there are a few other characters that improve mainly because of one or two custom moves, and the rest of the characters would certainly fall behind due to not having useful ones. It doesn't seem that custom moves actually make the game more balanced.

Also, I never expected custom moves to benefit the game significantly or make the game more balanced.

The fact that most of her meta revolves around opening people up and shuting people down with her needles. In short, she is centralized around that attack.

Many claim that customs will centralize some characters around a certain move, but this already exists in sheik and other characters.
Why would the problems with one of Sheik's attacks justify the problems with those custom moves? Just because a problem exists doesn't mean that the others like it are justified nor does it mean that more should be present.
 
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Skarfelt

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Nah there's definitely still a ton of people who thik Customs are broken or w/e but I'm not one of them and there is literally no point having the discussion in a thread with the majority disagreeing with them ob things that are already subjective anyway. This thread is putting the Zelda Social to shame with its random asinine **** taking up pages and going nowhere so there's no point discussing their balance any more.
 

CursedJay

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Warning Received
So far the best anti-custom argument I heard is that if Pro-Custom get stubborn and keep hosting Custom events, Anti- won't show up, but if Anti- host their tournaments, Pro- will.
Now for a general compilation of previous Pro arguments:

I was for customs since the beggining but i admit that i was worried that there were going to be a lot of stupid matches (mostly with Villager & HSB).
Fortunately with the exception of captain awesum (which mostly relies on a gimmick) EVO went very well & as powerful as HSB is it's not the instant win button people were making it out to be, so overall EVO made me even more in favor of customs.
The "Well nothing went as bad as people thought it would, so there's no reason to hate them" argument.

You don't think having more is better? Tell that to the people who main characters that need customs to be viable. It's pretty selfish to force characters into being low tier garbage just because you don't want to have more competition.
The "Everyone should be B tier or higher to be viable" argument.
EDIT: I'm actually shocked that no anti customs folks have referenced PM in an argument against this.
Default Diddy won. Default Sheik second placed. (Mostly) default ZSS got 3rd. JANK HAS NO POWER HERE!

Seriously though, those little numbers next to the moves mean nothing. If HSB were the default, Pika would be considered second best in the game, and nothing else would be made of it. We wouldn't ban the (hypothetically) default side-B, so why ban the custom?
The "They weren't even relevant" argument.

Really? Top sm4sh players are still going at it with their anti customs tweets? Whatever happened to top players just adapting to new features in fighting games rather than waste time and energy telling the rest of us how much they don't like it? Customs have proven to be a harmless threat and in some characters cases enriched their metagame. Also, any players that tried spamming Kong Cyclone or Villager's customs were quickly dealt with in pools by players with good fundamentals.
The "Just adapt, lol" argument.
"Legal until proven broken"

So far we haven't been given a reason not to embrace customs.
The "There's no reason to not have them" argument.
Players not personally having them to practice with isn't even an argument. Should everything unlockable be banned? Bye-bye Wario, Falco, R.O.B., Duck Hunt (character and stage), etc, players don't want to have to actually unlock you to practice with you. Might as well ban Smash 4 tournaments altogether, not every player wants to buy a Wii U!
The "Illogical reason to counter logical reasoning" (Had a field day with this one back on pg 9)
I play 2123 shulk as my one and only true main. 1111 default shulk to me is another character completely because my arts doesnt last as long,are weaker and cant be reactivated and fast so i cant be in speed or buster most of the time.

if i cant use my customs i rather play default link than 1111 shulk since link doesnt change his playstyle like custom shulk.

Some characters not only get better with customs, they change playstyles: shulk, palutena,mii, robin, and others.

why would anyone dont let me compete with my 2123 shulk against 1111 sheik or diddy?
I would be forced to change to 1111 link.

why just why.
The "Custom characters are people, too" argument.

Will probably be updating this as time goes on.
 
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SoniCraft

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Does anyone know if the the scene streamed by Tourney Locator is still keeping Customs On at their tournaments? I know Aerolink would probably be quite disappointed to hear he can't use his main anymore.
 
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Dinoman96

Smash Master
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Sep 22, 2013
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I'm a Palutena main, but I've long accepted that customs will most likely be phased out after EVO. It sucks, considering custom moves are the only way she'll be really viable, but it seems like the Anti-custom people have won.
 

SoniCraft

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I thought that Palutena and Wii Fit Trainer were known to benefit from custom moves anyways. Besides, from what I heard about the tournament, custom moves apparently weren't used very often in general. In any case, some of the high-tier characters have useful custom moves, there are a few other characters that improve mainly because of one or two custom moves, and the rest of the characters would certainly fall behind due to not having useful ones. It doesn't seem that custom moves actually make the game more balanced.

Also, I never expected custom moves to benefit the game significantly or make the game more balanced.


Why would the problems with one of Sheik's attacks justify the problems with those custom moves? Just because a problem exists doesn't mean that the others like it are justified nor does it mean that more should be present.
If custom moves weren't used that often in the first place, then what makes you so sure that they don't make the game more balanced? Isn't that really presumptuous? Do results not mean anything to you? Having more viable characters is certainly more balanced than having less, wouldn't you agree?
 
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Ninj4pikachu

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Jul 19, 2015
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I'm a Palutena main, but I've long accepted that customs will most likely be phased out after EVO. It sucks, considering custom moves are the only way she'll be really viable, but it seems like the Anti-custom people have won.
This exact attitude is what will split the community in half... People like the one I'm quoting will probably attend custom tourneys and ppl why don't like them will attend customs off tourneys.

My point is, we need to compromise. Both sides are set in their ways and if we decide on all customs legal, or all customs banned the other side will just go have their own meta somewhere else...

The meta is going to split, and I feel this thread is prove that it's inevitable.
 

Crome

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My scene started using customs a few months ago.

Since smash 4 released, there was this really good Luigi player. Low spectrum of Top 10 in the PR. Before customs, he was consistently in top 16 and placing really well. The TOs decided to start using customs. The Luigi player didn't want to use customs, because he didn't like Luigi's customs. Wanna know what happened to him after they allowed customs?

Nothing. Dude is still top 10 in PR, dude still places great, even when he goes against people using customs. Having bad customs doesn't drag you down.
 
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Kaladin

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Now for a general compilation of previous Pro arguments:


The "Well nothing went as bad as people thought it would, so there's no reason to hate them" argument.


The "Everyone should be B tier or higher to be viable" argument.
EDIT: I'm actually shocked that no anti customs folks have referenced PM in an argument against this.

The "They weren't even relevant" argument.


The "Just adapt, lol" argument.

The "There's no reason to not have them" argument.

The "Illogical reason to counter logical reasoning" (Had a field day with this one back on pg 9)

The "Custom characters are people, too" argument.

Will probably be updating this as time goes on.
Straw man fallacy. The irrelevance argument I made was simply a bit of humor. My main argument is the argument that they are entirely arbitrary. You can find my paragraphs of rants on the subject several pages back for a more accurate idea of my stance.
 

CursedJay

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Sorry, but default Palutena is absolutely unviable and you've done a pretty poor job at convincing me otherwise.
I'm not saying that she's viable. In fact, I'm saying the opposite. I don't think everyone needs to be super viable. I'm a dedede main. I have obvious flaws, and it's on me to cover those flaws.D3 is at the bottom of pretty much every tier list, but I don't complain. The standard meta is what it is. Some characters got dealt a better hand than others. That's what determines viability in the first place.

Straw man fallacy. The irrelevance argument I made was simply a bit of humor. My main argument is the argument that they are entirely arbitrary. You can find my paragraphs of rants on the subject several pages back for a more accurate idea of my stance.
Not aimed specifically at you, friend. I've seen instances of this in the thread besides you, but this was the earliest example I saw (Started from page one to reduce the risk of repeating arguments.)
 
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LimitCrown

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If custom moves weren't used that often in the first place, then what makes you so sure that they don't make the game more balanced? Isn't that really presumptuous? Do results not mean anything to you? Having more viable characters is certainly more balanced than having less, wouldn't you agree?
How are you sure that the reason for custom moves not being used very often is solely related to their effects on balance and not due to the possibility that people didn't want to use them? How would some characters benefiting from custom moves indicate that custom moves make the game more balanced overall?
 
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Unknownkid

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Oct 4, 2014
Messages
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Just wanted to give apologies for the "real tournament player" and the "Majority rules" comment, in retrospect both are pretty dumb and it was kind of eating me up. Also I don't have much to say on customs until august to see what, if any, customs are patched.
It is cool mate. You meant your statement with good intentions.

This whole post is extremely good but I'm not going to reply to anything but this as they're valid replies I can respect/agree with. This one I do not, though. You can practice against pretty much everything online if you look for it. Plenty of groups for matchup practice - I can go find a Sonic main to play against online if I need to know the matchup. The chances of those players having all Customs is much less likely, unfortunately.
I am afraid I do not agree with this claim. Most players, like myself, try to get customs for their mains first before the rest of the cast. Players can simply go to Character Thread/Reddit/GF and challenge/practice against a specific character with a particular set or custom move and learn what to do. Perhaps, even get advice from his opponent. Also, there are ton of youtube videos about customs and what they do. Nairo has a quick and short intro on each them. Vitamin ZK go into play by play study on each move and their functionally. You also have the right to ask your opponent before the match what your custom set do.
 
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Hippieslayer

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Did it turn out not to be the case? We had a Palutena and two Wii Fit Trainers in top 32. None of the high performing Sheiks really relied on customs, and when they did use customs, it didn't seem to make much of a difference. Even within top 8, customs were definitely instrumental in Abadongo's Wario giving dabuz's Rosalina the business. The magnitude of effect may be lower than you hoped for, but the effect itself seemed very much present to me in a significant way.
And we have to consider that the custom meta we saw at EVO was still very infantile as well. Like seriously, infantile, I really dislike the attempts from people to display EVO as if though it represents all that we can expect to see from customs.
That isn't going to happen, so there isn't any point to thinking about that.


Yeah. It's a "ban" even though the custom moves are something that you need to enable in the first place. You make it sound like not allowing custom moves is inherently incorrect. Also, explain why the comparison isn't a false comparison instead of only asserting that it isn't.

Many of the arguments for custom moves in the very beginning were either appeals to novelty or grand claims about the custom moves, which were mainly statements about how the custom moves would certainly benefit the games and claims that those would make the game more balanced because the lower-tier characters reportedly benefit from them more than the high-tiers. This turned out to not really be the case, and custom moves didn't seem to meet those expectations or balance the game in a significant way.

Also, here is what I don't understand about the last argument. People complain about Sheik and some of the problematic things about her moveset. People use this to support custom moves for some reason. How does this detract from the criticisms about some of the custom moves?
The fact that they have to be unlocked changes that banning them is a ban why? What does that have to do with anything? I have explained the comparison like 3 times now. You have asserted that its false multiple times with no reasoning behind why whatsoever, kindly stop trolling, and kindly make complete arguments.

That mid and low tier characters benefit more from customs on average than do high and top tiers turned out not to be the case when and how?
Now for a general compilation of previous Pro arguments:


The "Well nothing went as bad as people thought it would, so there's no reason to hate them" argument.


The "Everyone should be B tier or higher to be viable" argument.
EDIT: I'm actually shocked that no anti customs folks have referenced PM in an argument against this.

The "They weren't even relevant" argument.


The "Just adapt, lol" argument.

The "There's no reason to not have them" argument.

The "Illogical reason to counter logical reasoning" (Had a field day with this one back on pg 9)

The "Custom characters are people, too" argument.

Will probably be updating this as time goes on.
The "lots of 1 sentence non argument statements" argument? Come on, we have seen some good arguments from others. The fact that the whole issue divides the scene both on a national and international level and that irregardless of what is right it might be best to just give up on customs because of that is one. You throwing blanket statements at a summary of pro-custom arguments you've created by yourself by selective quoting boils down to naught but trolling.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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How are you sure that the reason for custom moves not being used very often is solely related to their effects on balance and not due to the possibility that people didn't want to use them? How would some characters benefiting from custom moves indicate that custom moves make the game more balanced overall?
I thought that Palutena and Wii Fit Trainer were known to benefit from custom moves anyways. Besides, from what I heard about the tournament, custom moves apparently weren't used very often in general. In any case, some of the high-tier characters have useful custom moves, there are a few other characters that improve mainly because of one or two custom moves, and the rest of the characters would certainly fall behind due to not having useful ones. It doesn't seem that custom moves actually make the game more balanced.

Also, I never expected custom moves to benefit the game significantly or make the game more balanced.


Why would the problems with one of Sheik's attacks justify the problems with those custom moves? Just because a problem exists doesn't mean that the others like it are justified nor does it mean that more should be present.
Customs were used a fair bit. I didn't make it as far as some others, but here was a breakdown of my tournament:

I used 2311 Rosalina the whole time except in one match where I used 2313 Rosalina (I never actually used down-3 in gameplay but selected it). My opponents:

Winner's-1: I defeated 1111 Zero Suit Samus
Winner's-2: I defeated 1312 Mega Man
Winner's-3: I lost to 1312 Mega Man
Loser's-5: I defeated 2122 Ganondorf [this is the game I used 2313 Rosalina]
Loser's-6: I defeated 1111 Dr. Mario
Loser's-7: I defeated 3112 King Dedede
Loser's-8 (2nd wave of pools): I lost to 1111 Olimar

So out of my opponents, 4 used customs and 3 did not. As per how the matches went...

Winner's-1: My opponent seemed very inexperienced. We played both games on Battlefield, I used up smash a lot, and I pretty much just didn't let him down after landing the first hit in both games. I don't think customs were relevant to what happened here.

Winner's-2: Bear knew a lot of really smart tricks especially with Rush Coil (which is of course a default move), but my analysis of his gameplay style suggested to me that if I simply never voluntarily hit the jump button I should win by just trapping his landings with up smash as much as possible. We had some tense exchanges between Skull Barrier and Shooting Star Bit as I executed my strategy, and Luma Warp definitely helped me quite a bit (while he used Danger Wrap to further guarantee that I would jump as seldom as possible; he used the customs to further re-enforce his playstyle of punishing jumps). We both played the stage game non-conventionally, playing game one on Delfino Plaza and game two on his counterpick of Castle Siege. I felt as though my win was decisive, but it was a very interesting set in which the customs made a clear difference.

Winner's-3: Seibrik is very strong, and he showed a higher level of the Shooting Star Bit/Skull Barrier meta. Specifically, he had this bait in which he'd Skull Barrier a SSB, carefully weave his position, I'd Luma Warp and *barely* miss, and he'd punish Luma to set up for his approach. His clever use of the customs to beat out my custom long range game alongside his use of lemons to prevent me from moving in ultimately won him the set. This set went to game three with the stages being Battlefield, Town & City (his cp), and Duck Hunt (my cp). He came out of it looking like the clearly stronger player, but I gave him a good set.

Loser's-5: This was quite the exciting set; he made excellent use of Wizard's Dropkick to get past everything I wanted to do. He also had a super scary moment in which he landed a Dark Fists, but I was able to DI out of it to survive when I would have died. I peppered him with star bits throughout the match and was always looking for Luma Warp, and while this often worked to my favor, at other times he used it to ftilt Luma (reading the warp) or to Wizard's Dropkick in. I don't actually remember the set count or stages, but it was a close, good set. I feel without customs I would have just annihilated him as Wizard's Dropkick was absolutely essential to both his approach game and to his recovery, and in general I would have no problem just turtling against Ganon even without a projectile. I was actually sad in general this player (whose handle I don't remember) went out so early since he really did have a solid Ganon.

Loser's-6: Again a lot of my memory of this set is fading, but I recall that this player seemed inexperienced in the Rosalina match-up. My customs helped me quite a bit and led to a complex projectile game of his pills and cape vs my bits and warps, but more often I caught him with my favorite Rosalina bs of having Luma hit while I'm recalling it (to ruin his chases after he hits me). I think my customs were relevant here, but I think the deciding factor of the match was match-up inexperience which would have happened regardless of ruleset. I know I won 2-0.

Loser's-7: This was a tense set against Chazo's King Dedede. His customs didn't really help him all that much since I mostly did a good job of staying out of the way of Taste Test (he went for it several times though, and had he connected more, it would have spelt an early Luma death) and all DDD down-Bs are bad, but then again, he was smart about blocking warps and bits so the dynamics really boiled down to the "basic" dynamics of this MU which are that DDD is a very unsafe character who will inevitably fall to a smart, defensive high tier like Rosa. This did go to game 3, but I don't remember stages.

Loser's-8 (QF pools): This was an ugly game in which I was exposed as being awful at the Olimar match-up. I got wrecked, he wasn't using customs, and my customs only delayed my inevitable doom a bit. I lost 2-0.

Had customs been off, my bracket probably would have played out the same way except I would have destroyed the Ganon player instead of having a close set. However, the customs made the majority of my matches more interesting and worsened none of them (they were probably a minor downside for Chazo's DDD at worst, but Taste Test had the potential to make a solid difference).

If we look to top 32, we see that 21 different characters were represented in the top 32, three of which seem extremely likely not to have placed without customs (Wii Fit Trainer, Palutena, and Mii Brawler). We see that the only character who was dominant in any way was Sheik, a character who is clearly dominant in any ruleset. We also note Meta Knight, a character who is often cited as a not impressive character with poor customs, did make top 32 anyway, and we note that despite Mr. Game & Watch conventionally being on the list of "characters who really need customs", default G&W made it very deep on the skill of a dark horse player. It is indeed possible that customs in the long run may have a different result, but for now, it seems like they make some games more interesting, a few characters viable who wouldn't otherwise be, and beyond that don't rock the boat and don't serve as a detriment to players who want to use defaults. I don't see how this isn't a very positive outcome and one indicative of an overall improvement in balance.
 

Ninj4pikachu

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How are you sure that the reason for custom moves not being used very often is solely related to their effects on balance and not due to the possibility that people didn't want to use them? How would some characters benefiting from custom moves indicate that custom moves make the game more balanced overall?
I wish we knew the answer to these viable questions but we will never know unless we explore what customs have to offer. As hippyslayer stated, the customs meta is still in its infancy and will die there unless we let it grow.
 

A4k1ng

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100% customs should be off, they make little difference on tournament impact (See top 8 EVO) except for allowing characters with jank customs to place high. Not to mention we don't even know if Nintendo will realese dedicated patches for them, so we will have to deal with tons of infinites being found, and banning them will just be a pain in the ass.
 

Ninj4pikachu

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100% customs should be off, they make little difference on tournament impact (See top 8 EVO) except for allowing characters with jank customs to place high. Not to mention we don't even know if Nintendo will realese dedicated patches for them, so we will have to deal with tons of infinites being found, and banning them will just be a pain in the ***.
All of those issues have been addressed in the previous posts of this thread, go back and read them.
 

Ninj4pikachu

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Customs were used a fair bit. I didn't make it as far as some others, but here was a breakdown of my tournament:

I used 2311 Rosalina the whole time except in one match where I used 2313 Rosalina (I never actually used down-3 in gameplay but selected it). My opponents:

Winner's-1: I defeated 1111 Zero Suit Samus
Winner's-2: I defeated 1312 Mega Man
Winner's-3: I lost to 1312 Mega Man
Loser's-5: I defeated 2122 Ganondorf [this is the game I used 2313 Rosalina]
Loser's-6: I defeated 1111 Dr. Mario
Loser's-7: I defeated 3112 King Dedede
Loser's-8 (2nd wave of pools): I lost to 1111 Olimar

So out of my opponents, 4 used customs and 3 did not. As per how the matches went...

Winner's-1: My opponent seemed very inexperienced. We played both games on Battlefield, I used up smash a lot, and I pretty much just didn't let him down after landing the first hit in both games. I don't think customs were relevant to what happened here.

Winner's-2: Bear knew a lot of really smart tricks especially with Rush Coil (which is of course a default move), but my analysis of his gameplay style suggested to me that if I simply never voluntarily hit the jump button I should win by just trapping his landings with up smash as much as possible. We had some tense exchanges between Skull Barrier and Shooting Star Bit as I executed my strategy, and Luma Warp definitely helped me quite a bit (while he used Danger Wrap to further guarantee that I would jump as seldom as possible; he used the customs to further re-enforce his playstyle of punishing jumps). We both played the stage game non-conventionally, playing game one on Delfino Plaza and game two on his counterpick of Castle Siege. I felt as though my win was decisive, but it was a very interesting set in which the customs made a clear difference.

Winner's-3: Seibrik is very strong, and he showed a higher level of the Shooting Star Bit/Skull Barrier meta. Specifically, he had this bait in which he'd Skull Barrier a SSB, carefully weave his position, I'd Luma Warp and *barely* miss, and he'd punish Luma to set up for his approach. His clever use of the customs to beat out my custom long range game alongside his use of lemons to prevent me from moving in ultimately won him the set. This set went to game three with the stages being Battlefield, Town & City (his cp), and Duck Hunt (my cp). He came out of it looking like the clearly stronger player, but I gave him a good set.

Loser's-5: This was quite the exciting set; he made excellent use of Wizard's Dropkick to get past everything I wanted to do. He also had a super scary moment in which he landed a Dark Fists, but I was able to DI out of it to survive when I would have died. I peppered him with star bits throughout the match and was always looking for Luma Warp, and while this often worked to my favor, at other times he used it to ftilt Luma (reading the warp) or to Wizard's Dropkick in. I don't actually remember the set count or stages, but it was a close, good set. I feel without customs I would have just annihilated him as Wizard's Dropkick was absolutely essential to both his approach game and to his recovery, and in general I would have no problem just turtling against Ganon even without a projectile. I was actually sad in general this player (whose handle I don't remember) went out so early since he really did have a solid Ganon.

Loser's-6: Again a lot of my memory of this set is fading, but I recall that this player seemed inexperienced in the Rosalina match-up. My customs helped me quite a bit and led to a complex projectile game of his pills and cape vs my bits and warps, but more often I caught him with my favorite Rosalina bs of having Luma hit while I'm recalling it (to ruin his chases after he hits me). I think my customs were relevant here, but I think the deciding factor of the match was match-up inexperience which would have happened regardless of ruleset. I know I won 2-0.

Loser's-7: This was a tense set against Chazo's King Dedede. His customs didn't really help him all that much since I mostly did a good job of staying out of the way of Taste Test (he went for it several times though, and had he connected more, it would have spelt an early Luma death) and all DDD down-Bs are bad, but then again, he was smart about blocking warps and bits so the dynamics really boiled down to the "basic" dynamics of this MU which are that DDD is a very unsafe character who will inevitably fall to a smart, defensive high tier like Rosa. This did go to game 3, but I don't remember stages.

Loser's-8 (QF pools): This was an ugly game in which I was exposed as being awful at the Olimar match-up. I got wrecked, he wasn't using customs, and my customs only delayed my inevitable doom a bit. I lost 2-0.

Had customs been off, my bracket probably would have played out the same way except I would have destroyed the Ganon player instead of having a close set. However, the customs made the majority of my matches more interesting and worsened none of them (they were probably a minor downside for Chazo's DDD at worst, but Taste Test had the potential to make a solid difference).

If we look to top 32, we see that 21 different characters were represented in the top 32, three of which seem extremely likely not to have placed without customs (Wii Fit Trainer, Palutena, and Mii Brawler). We see that the only character who was dominant in any way was Sheik, a character who is clearly dominant in any ruleset. We also note Meta Knight, a character who is often cited as a not impressive character with poor customs, did make top 32 anyway, and we note that despite Mr. Game & Watch conventionally being on the list of "characters who really need customs", default G&W made it very deep on the skill of a dark horse player. It is indeed possible that customs in the long run may have a different result, but for now, it seems like they make some games more interesting, a few characters viable who wouldn't otherwise be, and beyond that don't rock the boat and don't serve as a detriment to players who want to use defaults. I don't see how this isn't a very positive outcome and one indicative of an overall improvement in balance.
Idk how anyone can argue with this guy... Read this post and give me a question it didn't answer...
 

ARGHETH

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100% customs should be off, they make little difference on tournament impact (See top 8 EVO) except for allowing characters with jank customs to place high. Not to mention we don't even know if Nintendo will realese dedicated patches for them, so we will have to deal with tons of infinites being found, and banning them will just be a pain in the ***.
All of those issues have been addressed in the previous posts of this thread, go back and read them.
Summary:
- See top 32 EVO and how is this an argument anyways
- No DKs and one Stalledger placed top 32 (from what I heard, the other two Villagers used different strategies)
- There are a grand total of...two? three infinites being found, with Pikachu, Captain Falcon, and one I'm forgetting
- Banning them basically just requires changing the sets
 
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Ninj4pikachu

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Summary:
- See top 32 EVO and how is this an argument anyways
- No DKs and one Stalledger placed top 32 (from what I heard, the other two Villagers used different strategies)
- There are a grand total of...two? three infinites being found, with Pikachu, Captain Falcon, and one I'm forgetting
- Banning them basically just requires changing the sets
ESAM was using the infamous pikachu infinant and lost to default pacman and then agin to default Mario. Those infinant a only work on those who don't know how to deal with them. Ignorance is a powerful tool.
 

WakerofWinds

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I don't believe it's fair to say we are the ones wanting to "ban something" that is off by default. Surely it's the other way around.
Surely this exact difference in perspective is the beginning of the division between pro- and anti-customs. Does "off by default" mean that they have to be considered "added" as opposed to banned, or does their existence as an option mean that they ought to be considered "banned" as opposed to added.

It's honestly impossible to prove that one is more correct than the other. I imagine you see customs on as something as simple as "should we add time to this stock match?" That's perfectly valid.

I view customs on more like stages or items, "is there some reason why this option should be turned off or removed?" For me, banning customs really is the removal of an option. It's not adding customs to the game by allowing them, but removing customs from the game by disallowing them.

Neither side is right or wrong, it's just a different way of looking at things. It's why no matter what, one side won't be happy. That's the unfortunate truth.
 

thehard

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Sounds like there are more top players for customs than I realized, sadly they're not as popular on social media platforms and so won't get recognized ;\
 

⑨ball

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You can practice against pretty much everything online if you look for it. Plenty of groups for matchup practice - I can go find a Sonic main to play against online if I need to know the matchup. The chances of those players having all Customs is much less likely, unfortunately.

You can also practice matchups by playing as the character. When you play as Luigi, you become MUCH more aware of his poor mobility, limited neutral, bad recovery and how easy to juggle he is. It's not as obvious when you're playing against him.
This can be said for customs too can't they? With enough support behind them, I'm sure that if you can find a Sonic main willing and able to play you with that certain strategy, you can find another that plays and thus has his customs. Every single player doesn't need to have every single custom for you to find players to practice against, just as every player won't have reputable skill with every character. I can see us remedying this in time, but for the moment it's no more difficult to search out the players with customs you want to find online than it is to do the same for players with certain strategies.

I do agree with the second point. There are guides on understanding customs and their weaknesses but I can understand wanting to get a feel for them. The only thing I could say to someone to help with this is ask for help from their TO/community members. If you want to play the same way, regardless of customs on or not, you can get help from the people you play with.

I don't think the edit was meant in response to me, but just in case--no argument there. Basic unlocking in Melee and most games takes a lot less time than customs in Smash 4. We've got strategies in place to help support people interested and make it an easier process, but it does take more time and effort as one would expect from unlocking more content in general.

I like his summation of the debate as being one that is essentially a decision on what kind of meta we want to see. I'd like to see what players actually think of the two in terms of what they expect to see down the line and why.

1. Most top players do not support customs moves,we know this, but we haven't exactly had any explicit reasoning behind why this is. The most common justification we've had is "customs are jank" which doesn't hold up against the many arguably "jank" things available in default. We can come to compromise if we have clear understandings on what we don't want in competitive play, but if we open the door to things like that we'll either have a bar set low enough that most customs are unaffected anyway, or we'll end up affecting default too. It's also worth noting that the top players in our community are directly affected by their character choice and the ruleset. There's no way we can say for sure if players in support of custom would not be considered top if they were allowed better tool sets. We can say for sure that talented players of characters thought to be midtier and lower(MikeKirby, John#'s, DaPuffster) always perform much better when they have access to better tools on the characters they want to play.

2. I actually kind of agree with, but it's not really objective support behind a customs off ruleset. It's also an opinion and one I'm not sure holds any water as I can't see many pro customs people being completely against tournaments held with default.

3. I touched on this briefly in response to Skarfelt, but in a nuthsell. Very true, can't really argue the accessibility of customs takes more effort than default play, but it tends to be the type of effort you expect from someone who's going to win regardless of what type of ruleset we have. I don't personally believe someone unwilling to get the customs/experience they need to win in one ruleset would suddenly become some hard working player that goes around practicing against different strategies and players to better his chances. Maybe there are players like that just off of the strength that they don't like customs, but I don't think it's likely or at the very least, just as likely as a player is to simply get the customs/experience through some means.
 

Nidtendofreak

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3. I touched on this briefly in response to Skarfelt, but in a nuthsell. Very true, can't really argue the accessibility of customs takes more effort than default play, but it tends to be the type of effort you expect from someone who's going to win regardless of what type of ruleset we have. I don't personally believe someone unwilling to get the customs/experience they need to win in one ruleset would suddenly become some hard working player that goes around practicing against different strategies and players to better his chances. Maybe there are players like that just off of the strength that they don't like customs, but I don't think it's likely or at the very least, just as likely as a player is to simply get the customs/experience through some means.
As mentioned here before, and something I put into the comment sections for this video on the main page: just bring your Wii U to a customs tournament. Very high chance that a master 3DS was used to port over the sets. Just have the TO port over the sets to your Wii U as well.

Ta-da! No real grinding needed! No extra time spent that could have been used practicing your character spend on getting customs instead! Just be willing to bring your Wii U to a tournament every time the sets get updated... which is somewhere between once every 6-12 months.
 

shadowmm151

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Stop. Top players are at the top for putting their life and soul into this game. They do not hate customs because it "poses a risk". Let's check out Top 32 at EVO and see how many top players we find carried by Customs!

http://shoryuken.com/2015/07/19/evo...argest-fighting-game-tournament-in-the-world/

Oh.

Also suggesting Melee players don't play Smash 4 because they don't want it to cut into their winnings blows my ****ing mind, Melee players don't play Smash 4 because the game shares a title and controls and that's it. Melee is the only older game still played by the FGC because no other game in the series plays remotely like it. We need to stop pretending top players' opinions are irrelevant because they're all super selfish or something. It's an insult to the players who take this game we love to the next level.


I'm not sure how much I agree with "low tiers become much better". Okay, Palutena goes from bottom tier to high tier for sure. Everyone else gets gradual increases which in my mind are similar to top tier increases. Ike gets Close Combat, Sonic gets HSD, y'know? I mean everyone gets better (...Jigglypuff and Zelda excluded) but increasing everyone doesn't magically equate to more balance among the cast.
Perhaps you need to ACTUALLY read what I wrote. I never said they were lazy. I said it would mean more work for them. I never said they were lazy. Did they not perform well? They did right? Why? Because they have the drive to succeed and they put in the work. I never said they were lazy. I said that if they had the option to play without customs (which they are already quite comfortable with) or without customs (which would increase the amount of things they would have to prepare for) they would obviously prefer without customs. Why make things more difficult for you by opening up more competitively viable characters? Again, I want to reiterate that I never said they were lazy. In fact, my final statement was: " And to be fair, I don't think there's anything wrong with that mentality since the top players still did well overall. They adapted because they were the best."

As for my Melee point, I very clearly state: "Now in melee's case a large part of it is because it's more aggressive fast paced game and a different style, but that isn't the only reason." I am well aware that many Melee players PREFER Melee. To be honest, I only included the point about Melee to offer an analogy.

As for the part about saying top players' opinions where you said: "We need to stop pretending top players' opinions are irrelevant because they're all super selfish or something. It's an insult to the players who take this game we love to the next level." I don't think you understand my point. It's not that top players are super selfish. For instance, if you and I and a group of 20 or so other non-top players created a ruleset for the next tournament, the top players would play to the rules regardless of whether they like the rules. Many might agree with our ruleset too. However, when the top players themselves create the ruleset, the ruleset will ALWAYS be more conservative because they PREFER it. This is a fact. Most top players don't like change. I'm not saying they can't deal with change as they clearly did at EVO, but that does not mean they LIKE it. Again, I'm not trying to put anyone down, I'm just trying to point out the reality of the situation.

And finally as for whether customs actually help balance, I think it's less of whether they help balance and more of that they offer more variety to the game. One of the reasons I finally put Melee down was that I just got bored of Fox dittos, or Sheik vs. Falco, or Marth vs. Fox, or etc. Melee had gotten stale to me after over a decade and the biggest reason is that only 8 characters could really place top 8 in a big tournament (Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach, Jiggs, Capt & ICs) and maybe a handful of other characters could place top 8 in a mid-level tournament (Doc, Mario, Luigi, Pika, Samus & Dorf). One of the biggest things in Smash 4's favor is the variety of characters we can see in a tournament. About 15-20 different characters can do something in a big tournament, and another 20 in a mid-level tournament. Customs just increases that number. It makes things more enjoyable to watch at least for me.
 

CursedJay

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gsh
ESAM was using the infamous pikachu infinant and lost to default pacman and then agin to default Mario. Those infinant a only work on those who don't know how to deal with them. Ignorance is a powerful tool.
The two times that he connected the infinite in those sets he converted into a kill.

Sorry...What is your argument? Ai honestly see yon flopping on both sides of the discussion so I'm curious to know where you stand.
 

Ninj4pikachu

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gsh

The two times that he connected the infinite in those sets he converted into a kill.

Sorry...What is your argument? Ai honestly see yon flopping on both sides of the discussion so I'm curious to know where you stand.
The point was that the technique isn't broken, it was overcome twice by default characters.

I myself am all for expanding the metagame so this games stays fresh even longer than melee, so I'm all for customs. I understand the complaints of the anti-customs and agree that they need to be addressed before we can move forward. The point of this thread shouldn't be "why customs should or shouldn't be standard" it should be "how can we make sure customs are fair and logistically feasible". I don't mean to sound flipy flopy because I'm quite solidly in favor of customs, but if we are to make these work then we HAVE to address any and all issues associated with this. So I encourage anti-custom people to pledge their complaints so that we who are for them can logically, decicivly, and most important politely, shoot them down.
 

Unknownkid

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It was kind of interesting that Esam switch to regular thunder shock once he realize Mario can use it against him.
If Ally use Custom Mario with Scalding FLUDD, he would have rekt Custom Pikachu.
 
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Big O

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I am currently pretty pessimistic when it comes to the smash community's ability to really have a productive and meaningful discussion on Customs On vs Off, but I haven't completely given up just yet.

A lot of what I am seeing right now feels like what happened to SF2 HDR. Long story short, it was an HD remake and rebalance of the classic SSF2T or (aka ST in the SF community) that ultimately died out. While not 100% congruent, it is a fairly strong parallel to what Customs On vs Off in Smash 4. HDR ~ Customs On and ST ~ Default.

- HDR and ST were more or less 90% the same, but with mostly slight changes to some moves and a few changes that completely changed the dynamics of certain characters and MU's (mostly changes to specials too!).
- For the most part the top tiers were still top tier, and the low tiers were still low tier between HDR and ST
- Initially people thought HDR was more balanced, but over time people argued that perhaps that isn't really the case
- Many of the more radical balance changes were viewed unfavorably as "jank"
- ST has plenty of existing jank that people do complain about, but its jank is basically "grandfathered in", so the community at large is fine with it
- Some of the top players eventually voiced their distaste for HDR and actively rallied to go back to ST (via HDR hate)
- The SF2 community moved on from ST to HDR, then had massive in-fighting and eventually imploded before an eventual resurgence/revival of ST happened
- The pro-HDR base liked both games, but the majority of the tourney goers were mostly ST players anyway and eventually did away with HDR tourneys, shifting back to ST

There were other factors that contributed to the fall of HDR (Akuma, lack of patches, alleged extra input delay, poor PS3 port, SF4 too close to its release), but many of the problems that led to its death are similar to the current problems within the Smash 4 scene. The much larger playerbase of smash is probably the biggest difference and why I have a sliver of hope that the community will eventually move on from this false dichotomy dilemma. We are big enough to have and/or play both.

The divisive split between Customs On vs Off is silly imo mainly because both are valid choices. Sure one may be better, but until we objectively prove one is better than the other and the community at large accepts that proof, it will just be a matter of preference. Matters of preference should ultimately be decided locally by the tourney going players and listened to by their TO's. Trying to force a universal standard on the matter when we can't even agree on 2 stocks vs 3 is both hilarious and sad. There doesn't need to be any in-fighting. There doesn't even need to be one standard way to play (and there isn't). It is okay for them to co-exist, even at the expense of each other. There is strength in unity, but there will never really be true unity until one of the 2 dies out and both sides have too many players for that to happen. The sooner we realize that customs on vs off isn't something we should probably be arguing about on smashboards, the better off the community will be. Convince your TO's to cater to what the players want and let natural selection take its course. Anything else is probably just adding unnecessary friction and bad blood.

Personally, I prefer Customs On due to the potential for growth and 80 extra variants of every (non-DLC) character when compared to the default. I value the added variety (both playing as my characters and against others characters) more than I hate fighting against the notoriously janky customs. Perhaps others feel indifferent or the opposite. Regardless, I don't think any amount of logic or persuasion from either side will change how the playerbase feels at large. I'm not really afraid of customs going away, but I do think maybe more could be done to educate people on customs and/or facilitate their growth.
 
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shiggy

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100% customs should be off, they make little difference on tournament impact (See top 8 EVO) except for allowing characters with jank customs to place high. Not to mention we don't even know if Nintendo will realese dedicated patches for them, so we will have to deal with tons of infinites being found, and banning them will just be a pain in the ***.
I agree with this. It's not a matter of whether or not customs are overpowered. It's a matter of what they add to they game, and I really don't think they add anything. Does it make some low tiers more viable? Sort of. With a few customs, now your low tier can have one jank kill move or setup, and that's pretty much your only option.

It also makes things needlessly complicated. Instead of "Shiek vs Pikachu", it's "Custom Shiek 2112 vs Custom Pikachu 3333". Just disable custom moves and accept your character for what it is. I'd rather see players actually develop their characters instead of finding that one jank custom move and abusing it.
 

A4k1ng

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Summary:
- See top 32 EVO and how is this an argument anyways
- No DKs and one Stalledger placed top 32 (from what I heard, the other two Villagers used different strategies)
- There are a grand total of...two? three infinites being found, with Pikachu, Captain Falcon, and one I'm forgetting
- Banning them basically just requires changing the sets
-If it doesn't have a large effect on the game, all it does is allow some jank characters to get into top 32, and make everyone that doesn't have a turbo controller bring there wii u to a tourney or spend weeks grinding customs
-Not everyone is a pro player, and not everyone in the tournament is top 32. How many people do you think lost their pool due to jank customs? If it doesn't have a significant effect on the meta, it just ruins pools for people
-These are the infinites found so far, and there are most likely more to be found. These are awful for the game, and Nintendo has only released very small changes to customs at all so we do not know if they will be patched (most likely not)
-The problem with banning customs is we make tournaments even more inacessible for people, not only do they have to unlock all customs, but now they have to memorize a ban list. This is a huge pain and it would be much easier for everyone to just have them off.
 

shiggy

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How many people do you think lost their pool due to jank customs? If it doesn't have a significant effect on the meta, it just ruins pools for people
Exactly. And let's say that somebody does win a major with a jank low tier custom (unlikely I know). How do you think the community will react? It won't be "oh that low tier character is viable!" It'll be "oh wow that custom is broken, ban it."

Just get rid of customs and play your character.
 

FrankTheStud

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Keep customs in a separate bracket/tournament than Vanilla for balancing purposes. People can compete in both if they want (it literally requires the click of a button), but too many characters and players used customs as a crutch for skill... Static Manny and that Sapling/Giant Loyd/Explosive Balloon Villager player come to mind.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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-If it doesn't have a large effect on the game, all it does is allow some jank characters to get into top 32, and make everyone that doesn't have a turbo controller bring there wii u to a tourney or spend weeks grinding customs
-Not everyone is a pro player, and not everyone in the tournament is top 32. How many people do you think lost their pool due to jank customs? If it doesn't have a significant effect on the meta, it just ruins pools for people
-These are the infinites found so far, and there are most likely more to be found. These are awful for the game, and Nintendo has only released very small changes to customs at all so we do not know if they will be patched (most likely not)
-The problem with banning customs is we make tournaments even more inacessible for people, not only do they have to unlock all customs, but now they have to memorize a ban list. This is a huge pain and it would be much easier for everyone to just have them off.
I think no one lost their pool for that reason. I have at least detailed how my pool went, and it was definitely enhanced by customs. How did your pool go? Do you have any specific pools in mind that were corrupted by customs? I can't say I'll be impressed by this argument if you don't actually have any pools in mind to cite here.
 

Skarfelt

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Pretty sure Rain lost to Villager in pools. Honestly though, all the anti-custom players need to stop saying "jank". As soon as you say that, any argument you have just looks silly.

As mentioned here before, and something I put into the comment sections for this video on the main page: just bring your Wii U to a customs tournament. Very high chance that a master 3DS was used to port over the sets. Just have the TO port over the sets to your Wii U as well.

Ta-da! No real grinding needed! No extra time spent that could have been used practicing your character spend on getting customs instead! Just be willing to bring your Wii U to a tournament every time the sets get updated... which is somewhere between once every 6-12 months.
Yeah if your tournament is more than an hour away on a bus/tube, this isn't really a feasible solution. I would feel really uncomfortable taking my Wii U long distances over crappy Irish roads. It's not as easy as bringing a memory card for the full Melee unlock. Also, transporting all the customs does still take quite a bit with a 3DS which could potentially delay the tourney if you're not showing up early but I guess if you're supplying a setup then you should be.
 

FSLink

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The point was that the technique isn't broken, it was overcome twice by default characters.
It might also be worth noting that you can avoid these sort of stun infinites by holding down before getting hit by the shock if you are on the ground.
 
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