Was Javi the best player at one point?

[PB&J]

why do people still underestimate Hungrybox and still say its only puff having him place good. Hbox is amazing player super good vs fox. When he was playing Javi, i told him to play him the same way he plays colbol and i said the same thing when hbox played mango's fox. People can John and say "Javi doesnt know the match up" which i really think it was Hbox just out playing him.

Javi is good,better than most of us think i hope,he told me he felt a bit off @ the tourny but no johns I guess. He did as good as i thought he would do.

He is trying to go to that Washington tourny this march so lets see what happens there. Oh and saying M2k would **** him is funny,the friendlies they played, Javi won the majority,against all his characters too but we will see what happens in the future.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

why do people still underestimate Hungrybox and still say its only puff having him place good. Hbox is amazing player super good vs fox. When he was playing Javi, i told him to play him the same way he plays colbol and i said the same thing when hbox played mango's fox. People can John and say "Javi doesnt know the match up" which i really think it was Hbox just out playing him.

Javi is good,better than most of us think i hope,he told me he felt a bit off @ the tourny but no johns I guess. He did as good as i thought he would do.

He is trying to go to that Washington tourny this march so lets see what happens there. Oh and saying M2k would **** him is funny,the friendlies they played, Javi won the majority,against all his characters too but we will see what happens in the future.

People who underestimate/give hungrybox less credit, don't fully see into the game, and can't fully understand why what he does works. 99% of the time these are the players that would think something like Dark could place well at a national. It's all people seeing the cover of books and not reading into them.

They clearly don't see it anywhere near as deep as hbox does himself, and don't see his aerial placement, his baits, his great reads, his beautifully placed rests, ledgeguarding etcetc..

it's so funny that people think he is and can cheese his way to being a top player and consistently do it for years.

oh and lets not forget he is the ****ing puff metagame. there isn't anyone else he can learn off of, he's also the only one of his tier. So clearly he's doing something right.



but also PB&J, i think it IS obvious that javi doesn't know the matchup, regardless of if hbox outplayed him.

 

[Bing]

HungryBox might be the only one now, but there are a few coming up fast, Like Idea and Mahone. You can still take a page or two off them for learning...

 

[KrazyKnux]

Dark would easily crush the next national. Though, tbh, I think Zant would probably do a tad better.

 

[Merkuri]

I don't think anyone is claiming that Hungrybox's success is solely because people don't know the Jugs matchup. But it's naive to think that the obscurity of his character does not give him an advantage against his opponents.

 

[Divinokage]

Jiggs shouldn't be an obscure match-up at all, every region has their own Jiggs player. Hbox just does it ridiculously well. If you've played him a bunch of times, you'd understand.

 

[Merkuri]

Does tri-state have a Jigs player? I was confident they didn't. Mexico probably doesn't either. And having only 1 Jigs player won't teach you much. If you're playing 1 Jigs player and 20 fox players then obviously your matchup knowledge is going to be lopsided.

 

[Divinokage]

But.. you don't need to play a Jiggs in tournament to understand a match-up. All you need is playing lots of friendlies with a Jiggs and learn what kind of tricks she can do.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I disagree. for one, in friendlies you don't know how hard your opponent is trying, or trying to play the matchup correctly. i agree it helps, but it is not the same as jiggs-tournament practice. Two, you honestly think each region has a REAL, puff player..? Even if that was true, none of them but hungrybox are considered professional.

Not all puffs do the same tricks. Hungrybox does tricks & things in the matchup that no other puff is doing. Why else is he the only one at his level of play?

 

[Divinokage]

Because there's a lot of things which constitutes a pro player. Timing, reactions, spacing, decisions.. experience in tournament, etc. But you can still learn each individual situation on your own but it's kinda up to you as a player to play up to par to an equally strong player. Jiggs is still Jiggs no matter how hard you look at it. That's kinda why he's a top 5 player, there's quite a gap in between them and the rest of the players because they do things so ****ing fast and efficiently. If you only blame match-ups johns at this point when the game has been out of 10 years, it'd say it's kinda insulting to the players who put so much work into the game to develop all the attributes necessary to win vs a strong opponent. Why else would PP be able to beat Hbox then, for example? There's also videos if you want to learn more about the opponent's tricks these days. If you were too lazy or not care enough to look at them because maybe Jiggs is too boring to watch.. again that's on you as a player. Breaking down a match in a video is also a skill btw.. you can be better at it the more you do it.

So ya, also for me I did take games off Hbox in the past but I understand that many times he made the better decisions and also his reactions are far superior to mine which already puts me at a disadvantage even if I know the match-up. All that is why Melee is deep as hell.

 

[stelzig]

Not all puffs do the same tricks. Hungrybox does tricks & things in the matchup that no other puff is doing. Why else is he the only one at his level of play?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmCQ7RDhuwg&feature=relmfu#t=5m28s

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

lol i really hope i don't have to explain the difference here stelzig.

kage, "jiggs is still jiggs no matter how you look at it"

i don't get your point here? people aren't exposed to the same strategies and habits that hbox could be doing on you. jiggs isn't the same jiggs everywhere. I feel like thats implying that playing 1 marth and understanding the matchup vs him = should do well against all marths..which is clearly not true.

the game has been out for 10 years yes, but the puff community is still extremely small, and as i said there is 1 professional puff to practice against still, so ofcourse even after 10 years, people are still hardly exposed to puff.

jiggs isn't just jiggs no matter the opponent..i don't get that concept.


PP beats hbox because he plays him. they have played in tournament many times..he can look back on his losses against him and critique himself. the best javi can do is watch some other fox who doesnt play like him and try and learn some things. I also think it's fairly obvious that watching vids isn't gonna solve your problems.

 

[stelzig]

You do if you think hbox is only better than other puff players because he has more tricks.

 

[Divinokage]

@Trahh What the heck, that post makes no sense..

My point is that Jiggs has the same moves just like any other character and there are multiple ways to counter certain things.. like I said it's up to you to find out how to counter it which is why you watch vids for example. You said it yourself, you critique yourself and you try out new things as an attempt to counter strategies. That still doesn't change your overall skills isn't enough to beat the player straight up.

You can play only one Marth to beat all the others, I only played Vwins as Marth with Ganon and I learned everything I need to know to beat everyone else.

Well.. actually I did go to a ****ton of tournaments too but I mean I had to learn quite a bit as a player and my character in order to do it eventually but still... my main training was outside the tournaments. I just picked up the new things I've seen in tournament and refined it enough where I can deal with any tricks thrown at me.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

stelzig,
youre over analyzing my use of the word trick. every single player uses 'tricks' to get their opponent to do stupid/wrong things. hbox does things to convince his opponent that they are safe to attack, for example..

besides playing very very right, a lot of mango's playstyle revolves around tricking his opponents into doing things whether it's attacking, shield grabbing, or just baiting his opponents into anything in general.

"My point is that Jiggs has the same moves just like any other character"

is this implying that jiggs is anything like any other character? jiggs is not like any other character in the game, that is the one of the main problems.


and how was javi supposed to critique himself in this matchup prior to apex?

 

[Divinokage]

That's implying Jiggs has moves, and you can counter them.

He should've maybe made someone play Jiggs with him and learn what he can do at the very least.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

"Thats implying X character has moves, and you can counter them."

That is an incredibly broad statement about knowing/not knowing a matchup.

knowing that jiggs has moves that you can counter does not prepare you for anything.


"You can play only one Marth to beat all the others, I only played Vwins as Marth with Ganon and I learned everything I need to know to beat everyone else."

i guess this is where we go differently in views. People play different and expose things in matchups differently than others. I don't think you can beat m2k's marth just because you've practiced against vwins.

 

[Divinokage]

I think you are being ignorant on purpose now. Can't you think a little bit?

You don't think I can beat M2k's Marth? I've done it before.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Kage, you are known for having very confusing/weird posts. I don't think it's fair for you to assume im just not thinking/being ignorant


in tournament?



dunno why it's coming off like im not thinking. basically it seems like your argument is that puff is puff regardless of who is playing her, and you just need to play against someones puff for practice and you should be good, oh and watching matches.

like how is javis friend playing puff for him the same at all.



"You can play only one Marth to beat all the others, I only played Vwins as Marth with Ganon and I learned everything I need to know to beat everyone else."

just to rebring this up as i feel this is the whole problem to our argument, you believe that 1 person can play against the entire cast all the time, regardless of who is opponent is, and he'll be prepared for every matchup?

 

[Divinokage]

Well I can't really draw you a picture or anything but let's say Jiggs uses bair near me and I'm Ganon. What can I possibly do to prevent that? I can maybe space a fair or bair, or maybe Uair. See? You definitely can break it down this way, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to do that which is why you have a friend to help you deal with situations like this.

I don't think he would use Marth in tournament when he has Sheik esp vs Ganon, all I've faced in tourney is his Sheik lol. I think we did one MM at tourneyplay which was like 3 years ago, I did win 2-1 at least that.

Javi would be able to do it because his level is sufficient to challenge Hbox but for the moment there's only a handful of players able to do that. For lower players, it won't work obviously because there's tons of things they don't understand yet which is why in my first post I emphasized like crazy the player's skills.

It's still possible to learn all the match-ups vs only one player of course that won't happen but.. The only difference with other players is how they use their moves.. again it's on you to adapt quickly.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

well yes of course something simple like bair is easy to analyze. but what about things on reaction like uthrow rest, or properly DI'ng the puff combos, if his friend never does either of those things properly?

did you see how many times javi died to uthrow no DI rest?

of course javi being at the level he is, he can realize when it's GENERALLY safe or unsafe to approach, but i think it's pretty obvious it was great player vs great player, one having LOTS of knowledge in a matchup, the other having video knowledge + possibly some friend puff knowledge.

I am obviously not taking any credit away from hbox as that is on javi to learn, but that doesnt mean javi was fully prepared.

 

[phish-it]

I Even if that was true, none of them but hungrybox are considered professional.

the game has been out for 10 years yes, but the puff community is still extremely small, and as i said there is 1 professional puff to practice against still, so ofcourse even after 10 years, people are still hardly exposed to puff.

So what are you actually implying here? In order for him to have beaten Hungrybox he would have had to play him before? If he is the only jigglypuff on that level, and any previous jigglypuff experience with other players is void because of that?

 

[Divinokage]

well yes of course something simple like bair is easy to analyze. but what about things on reaction like uthrow rest, or properly DI'ng the puff combos, if his friend never does either of those things properly?

did you see how many times javi died to uthrow no DI rest?

Oh cmon, no players are immune to mix-ups. lol.

How about Armada then? Did he need to play against everyone to get 2nd place at G1 for the first time? Nope, all his skills were enough to enable him to get that far. Are you gonna john that no one knew the Peach match-up correctly even at that point when they were notable Peaches back in the day and even now?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

So what are you actually implying here? In order for him to have beaten Hungrybox he would have had to play him before? If he is the only jigglypuff on that level, and any previous jigglypuff experience with other players is void because of that?

That was in response to kage's implication that the puff matchup is still puff regardless of the opponent, and i was simply saying that isn't true since hungrybox is doing things that other's do not.

So im impyling that the best thing for him would've been to play against the best puffs below hbox (even if he couldn't that's not the point). and that playing some random friend puff is nowhere near the same as playing hbox.

Oh cmon, no players are immune to mix-ups. lol.

How about Armada then? Did he need to play against everyone to get 2nd place at G1 for the first time? Nope, all his skills were enough to enable him to get that far. Are you gonna john that no one knew the Peach match-up correctly even at that point when they were notable Peaches back in the day and even now?

No, he played people in europe that played all the characters we play here in america. guess which two matchups armada lost to at the first genesis? the two characters hardly anyone at all plays in europe. falcon/puff.

As a matter of fact, one of the last big nationals europe had, armada didn't drop a single game against anyone but one person, fuzzy the falcon. I'm pretty certain he was not the 2nd or 3rd or even 4th best person at that tournament.

 

[Divinokage]

Well perhaps that's because he didn't feel the need to train those match-ups back in the day and now he has better strategies as to how to deal with these characters.. He can't train with Hbox level Puff and yet he's found ways to beat him, how you think?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Well perhaps that's because he didn't feel the need to train those match-ups back in the day and now he has better strategies as to how to deal with these characters.. He can't train with Hbox level Puff and yet he's found ways to beat him, how you think?

It doesn't matter what reason he felt to do what, the point is he didn't have enough matchup experience and lost. Just the same way Javi has come into his first international tournament.

I don't think Armada switching to YL is a good example on learning matchups.

 

[Divinokage]

Uhh.. it's a strategy that worked for him and it enabled him to win. It was the smart thing to do after feeling pain from losing with Peach repeatedly. And then he tested it out at his home with whoever he had access to and it seemed like it worked for him. There's no need to stress yourself in a tough match-up for no reason. I'm pretty sure he watched vids too a lot. His skill as a player even from the beginning was nearly unrivaled anyways, I played with him a bit before and it's really absurd, trust me.. even if I'm really good and I thought I could beat him before, he showed me otherwise completely. I felt like a noob literally since his reactions, decisions, adaptation, spacing and combos were far superior than mine. You simply cannot say otherwise.

 

[t3h Icy]

I don't think Armada switching to YL is a good example on learning matchups.

Mew2King sucks then.

 

[Aber]

The fact that you said you cannot learn a matchup through friendlies because you aren't entirely sure if someone may be "trying" immediately makes me side with Kage in this argument.....lollllllllll

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

wtf, kage you did not need to write al that. regardless of if he did the right thing to win, that does not equate to learning a matchup..icy..same goes to you. we are takking ab out learning character matchups not p'ayr matchups. aber, Isaid that was a possibility, and that of course it helps but no whe3re near as muc as tournament.

I'm driving now so my typing is going out the window from here

 

[Divinokage]

*Sigh* I swear to ****...

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

wtf kage, you have no argument here. I proved you wrong with armada losing in matchups he didn't know. now you're talking about him switching to yl as if that relevan to aything, that was not his first time playing hungrybox..

by your logic, the first time armada played hbox he should've won since he needed to "quickly adapt" but he didn't. so what's your point?

 

[Divinokage]

You seriously think you absolutely need to play Hbox to beat him? My logic is that you can learn ways to beat someone your level by using others. Playing Hbox once or twice in a set is not enough to gather enough data for everything. You HAVE to do your homework outside tournament as well.

 

[Merkuri]

You seriously think you absolutely need to play Hbox to beat him? My logic is that you can learn ways to beat someone your level by using others. Playing Hbox once or twice in a set is not enough to gather enough data for everything. You HAVE to do your homework outside tournament as well.

He isn't talking about playing Hbox(at least I don't think so) he's talking about playing other skilled Puffs. And I think he is absolutely right on that.

 

[Divinokage]

Eh? The argument was that you don't need to actually play a pro player to learn a match-up which is true. The only difference as your level goes higher is that everything is faster and stuff like that like I explained already, everything occurs differently per player but ya it's still up to you to do everything you can to win. It's easy to say that I can try to adapt with Ganon vs Jiggs but I'm still the one limited in my approach more than Jiggs and I'd say same with Peach though that's another story.

 

[Bing]

If a person doesnt understand a match up, or has no one to practice said MU. I find the best thing to do is just to learn the character yourself. that way by playing others as the character a little bit, learning it capabilities, the way it moves, attacks and combos, you can atleast have something to go into the match with. Especially for a Characters ranked so high.

 

[Divinokage]

If a person doesnt understand a match up, or has no one to practice said MU. I find the best thing to do is just to learn the character yourself. that way by playing others as the character a little bit, learning it capabilities, the way it moves, attacks and combos, you can atleast have something to go into the match with. Especially for a Characters ranked so high.

Oh ya definitely. This should also be relevant to the argument.

 

[Warhawk]

I don't think Armada switching to YL is a good example on learning matchups.

But he did learn the matchup, just with another character.

 

[stelzig]

stelzig,
youre over analyzing my use of the word trick. every single player uses 'tricks' to get their opponent to do stupid/wrong things. hbox does things to convince his opponent that they are safe to attack, for example..

I'm not denying that hbox is better at his stuff and that he would clearly be the best player for experience (especially when we're talking about practice for the hbox/player matchup rather than the puff/character matchup) but it's not like experience from playing other puffs can't be used at all just because they aren't as high level as him. And it is silly to claim that hbox specifically can't be beaten without playing him because of his tricks.

I'm not arguing wether javi is actually good at the matchup or not anyway. Though from what I remember he actually did some pretty nice things in the matchup.

Edit: And that previous post still says that hbox is at a higher level than other puffs because he does tricks that they don't. I don't see how I can have overanalyzed that post in any way. If there were other puffs at his level of play, it wouldn't really change what you just stated.

On a sidenote though, I do remember armada stating that part of him choosing young link was because he didn't really have any great puff main to practice the matchup against so he went with a matchup that hbox would have equally/more trouble with learning. (and as such I still don't disagree that greater players give greater practice and experience. Just the idea that this is purely because of their tricks. Actually I remember people saying that mango (the player you used as a trickster example) was specifically bad for learning matchups because of his playstyle)

 

[SheerMadness]

Someone should ask Javi why he doesn't fast fall his dairs most of the time...