Was Javi the best player at one point?

[t3h Icy]

I read a post about this on the Fox boards and thought it'd be interesting to discuss here. For many, many years, Javi has dominated the Mexican scene and like many players we've never seen play North America, we assumed that they're not quite in the same league, which is fair to say. However, after Apex we've seen that Javi is way more than just tech skill and is a very intelligent Fox, can play both super aggressive and super defensive, and adapts incredibly quick (see vs Hungrybox game 3). He's like a super technical Jman.

So is it possible that due to him never coming up to the US before that we just never knew?

Here's Javi vs Twin in 2006: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_4v5wRKhro
Here's Mew2King vs PC Chris in 2006: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNCy31huv7E

There's a very noticeable difference, and of course single matches aren't really enough to compare, and would take a lot of research and such, but it seems like Javi was far ahead for years, at the very least in the technical aspect of the game.

Here's Javi vs Twin in 2009, shortly after Mango defeated Armada at Genesis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aT1jSJZkMk
And here's Lucky vs Dr. PeePee at Pound 4, a couple months later: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMg_3c93pKE

Again, single matches, tournament pressure, etc, but there still seems to be a small gap between the skill levels.

And some interesting quotes I've found about Javi/Twin:

Mango learned lots of his spacie techniques from watching videos of the mexico twins Javi and Tuga. They've been using lots of the shield pressure techniques and movement techniques that mango has adopted over the years and brought into light.

(Source)

look mang if i compare darkrain cause i played hours with that guy and compare it to the other mexican players i can say twin is on darkrains level, EX is a bit better and Javi is waay better, thats like the only observation i can make
javi is like incredibly good compared to any mexican smasher mang

(Source)

I'm not sure if they're completely true, but interesting anyway.

So, is it possible that Javi was the best player for a long time until others caught up, only we just never got to see him? Or did it take these years of experience to get to a level of adaptation required to win internationals? Or is it too difficult to tell and we can only speculate?

 

[Levingy]

Javi might have been the best for a moment. Though it is impossible to say how good he would have done against m2k's Marth and Mango's puff back then. From the looks of it considering apex 2012, it seemed he didn't have very much puff experience. But how i see it, he learned a lot about the puff-matchup even in during the set vs Hbox. So what I'm getting is, he would have probably not won his first major USA-tourney back in the days, but might have won some after getting used to puff's and marth at least. He might have had the potential to be the best, and I think he might have it now too.

In his country, there might be players that has all these days thought that he is the best in the world, until someone comes and proves otherwise. I think that's kinda same that many USA-players have thought also about their best players.

 

[Ken_Y`]

JAvi is really good and I wouldnt doubt that mang0 learned how to play spacies by watching the mexico twins

They all put an extreme amount of pressure on you and force you to your noob habits

JAvi has the best Fox right now, better than Mang0's

 

[LittleBoyLarry]

I think Javi will rise up to the top and bring a new domination era. Let's hope he attends the next National and see how well he does.

 

[LLDL]

During like the 06 07 era, I saw a LOT of posts like "The twins are the best players". Or " 'M2K and PC are the best' 'No Javi and twin are the best players'". I saw that a WHOLE lot, and usually it wasn't by a Mexican poster. I always took those posts into consideration, but I never really watched their matches because they were from camera instead of capture card. So their skill was known back then, probably just ignored by a lot.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm doubtful.

edit: It's clearly too difficult to tell, at any rate. Youtube doesn't convey enough to give us grounds to draw such hefty conclusions. Especially if his field is significantly weaker than him.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Does it really matter?

He obviously isnt now

 

[Pengie]

Pretty much sums this topic up >__>

 

[JPOBS]

I don't really care about the speculation of him being the best player, or even the best fox.

I'm just really glad he came and dominated and didn't choke. Its refreshing to read posts glorifying unrecognized talent than the inevitable circle-jerking of "i told you so" that would have happened if javi came to apex and sucked.

 

[Fuss]

Javi is one solid *** fox.

 

[Mew2King]

dude he's ****, but i think he mostly specializes in comboing and fighting the fast fallers

 

[Fregadero]

dude he's ****, but i think he mostly specializes in comboing and fighting the fast fallers

He was in my room playing friendlies Thursday night and he was going evenish w/ KK and Captain Jack. Can't deny he wrecks spacies and that hes a great player but hes not the insanse-mexican-out of nowhere-boss everyone is making him out to be.

I don't think hes better than Peepee either.

 

[SheerMadness]

Javi and Twin were most likely two of the top players in the world in 2005/2006. Look at their vids, they were wayyyy ahead of the curve.

Not sure if they would have came over and won mlg, because I think they lacked matchup experience and still do. But they probably would have given anyone a challenge back then.

These days Javi still ***** but IMO he's not on the same level as Mango/Armada. From vids I've seen Twin is not as **** as he used to be (still really good though).

Twin might have actually been better than Javi back in like 05/06. I remember watching their vids when I started in late 05 and Twin won most of them. I can't find their earliest FD vids on youtube anymore though. =[

 

[Strong Badam]

Lol @ citing GameFAQs posts.

 

[KrazyKnux]

Yeah, Twin has really fallen off the radar tbh. He was #2 solidly back then, but now he gets consistently beaten by EX, and drops sets to Yu, Rael (who i think is the best Falco down there), Valdo, and company. I had always thought Javi was a top player back then (I made it well-known, and everyone disagreed lol) but to say he was the best is impossible, especially with limited match up experience.

Monterrey has a pretty good scene, so we can only hope a few more guys show up for the next big tournament to gauge the overall skill level of Mexico. Plus is would be pretty hype.

 

[Atlus8]

There were also other videos back in late 06'/early 07' that have long since been deleted! There is absolutely no doubt in my head that Javi AND Tuga were the best space animals at that time!

 

[Binx]

PC was better back then IMO, not as technical but crazy smart. Mindgames are hard to see in vids though.

 

[Landry]

I read a post about this on the Fox boards and thought it'd be interesting to discuss here. For many, many years, Javi has dominated the Mexican scene and like many players we've never seen play North America, we assumed that they're not quite in the same league, which is fair to say.

Not that it's a particularly pertinent point, but Mexico is definitely part of North America last I checked.

 

[BaLD]

.....Mexico is part of North America....

 

[PeruvianNova]

I saw Javi and Tuga since 2006, and oh yeah, his style is different than the 2006 melee US pro players, maybe now he's not the best, but he still ROCKS! and he can fight with any pro, from any country. Javi is just... too ****ing good.

 

[Bones0]

I think a relevant point to make is that players who know each other really well tend to look much more solid. I know I look like a freakin' boss vs. the Marth player I play all the time, but when I play another Marth, even one who is significantly worse, my style looks much more off even if I do better overall. When you play someone over and over, you get so used to their DI patterns, their mixups, etc. that you start to seem like you're making good reads when in actuality, it's just obvious to you and no one else because you've played them a million times. This is why I don't think you can make a comparison between Javi vs. Twin and M2K vs. PC Chris. The former are brothers that have literally developed almost their entire style against each other, whereas the latter are players that probably only played each other in a handful of sets before that.

 

[KishPrime]

As to the hbox round 3 game, to me I saw hbox simply going all out at that point with a bit of unsafe stuff to try to kill him off before he really could figure anything out. In other words, he dropped himself a couple metagame layers to a more powerful but more punishable style. Obviously, Javi did start to pick it up, but I'm not certain he was anywhere near close to "figuring out the matchup," considering how much he clearly did not know it during the first two rounds AND that round 3 was his counterpick. That was my take.

That said, I think the way he played, he could certainly challenge for Top 3s for as long as he plays. He showed the talent and skill to handle the speed matchups well.

 

[AxL 33]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW4UxlyFLJU&feature=related

yeah since 2006 it's to good

 

[ShroudedOne]

Ooooh. Five stocks, ten minute timer? That actually sounds kinda nice...

EDIT: But only for that tournament. Well, nvm.

 

[Anth0ny]

Ooooh. Five stocks, ten minute timer? That actually sounds kinda nice...

EDIT: But only for that tournament. Well, nvm.

That would fix the Hungrybox/Armada problem

I'm not sure you can say he was the best in the world at one time. Hard to say considering he didn't play the American competition. Regardless, I hope Javi could make it out to more nationals. His Fox is sublime.

 

[Thanos828]

It's hard to really say that but I most definitely think he could have easily been a top contender in our Melee scene in 06/07 as well.

 

[Bing]

It kind of seems like some people are forgetting that its about more then tech-skill, yes he did adapt decently against hungrybox(He may have saved himself if he figured Hbox out sooner). I believe that he would have finished around 5th even still. Clearly he is lacking some knowledge and experience with certain MU's, and most of us only saw him play Puff,Falco, Fox and Sheik. Theres a lot more out there.

Also I watched KirbyK play him Day 3, he was 3 stocking him consistently, enough said.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

That would fix the Hungrybox/Armada problem

I dont think an extra stock and two minutes is gonna stop Armada from camping with Ylink...
i mean if he already has the patience to camp for 4 stocks one more isnt all that bad

 

[Chisk1n]

Tuga was the best falco in the world from 2006-2009 , then after seven years of being the best players of Mexico and probably the world, javi & twin stopped playing and dedicated to party, hangout w/friends, work, school, etc, until a few weeks ago, rusty javi practiced a little for the apex 2012 but he is no more the best in the world, maybe with a little more practice he could beat armada, who imho is the best in the world in this precisely moment.

My top 5 atm:
Armada
Hungrybox
Mango
Javi
Tuga

Distant 6 and so on (in no particular order):
silentspectre , m2k , pp

 

[Metakill]

^ what the **** with PP??
He's better than hbox for sure lol

I think Javi is at the same level than Armada/Mango, he only need to get bettet in matchups.
So start a found to get Javi and Tuga to Genesis 3!!!

edit: LOL i didn't see hbox > mango ... Nice joke mah friend

 

[Sinji]

Javi told me that the third best in Mexico is a peach main and that he is very experienced in the match up.

 

[Chisk1n]

Probably EX, but i dont rate him highly

 

[Poloz]

Javi told me that the third best in Mexico is a peach main and that he is very experienced in the match up.

he is not liying you , third best in Mexico is Ex a great peach player

 

[Merkuri]

he is not liying you , third best in Mexico is Ex a great peach player

I think Atlus said that he feels Ex is about as Good as Armada. I wouldn't take that too seriously had Javi not beaten PP like that.

 

[KrazyKnux]

Yeah EX's style is mad weird, but he does some pretty jank stuff and it works out nicely. He seems to be a really smart player. I feel like he would be Armada's level if he was just more technical. Otherwise, I think Armada has the edge, but i'm sure he could compete as the best Peach up here.

 

[felipe_9595]

I dont know where i heard that Ex back then could beat anyone without lcanceling O-o

 

[Roneblaster]

Tuga was the best falco in the world from 2006-2009 , then after seven years of being the best players of Mexico and probably the world, javi & twin stopped playing and dedicated to party, hangout w/friends, work, school, etc, until a few weeks ago, rusty javi practiced a little for the apex 2012 but he is no more the best in the world, maybe with a little more practice he could beat armada, who imho is the best in the world in this precisely moment.

My top 5 atm:
Armada
Hungrybox
Mango
Javi
Tuga

Distant 6 and so on (in no particular order):
silentspectre , m2k , pp

I dont like to be this guy but...

Post of the year right here. Nothing will be as funny as this.

/lookatmeimcoollikeblisteringspeed

 

[Chisk1n]

I dont like to be this guy but...

Post of the year right here. Nothing will be as funny as this.

/lookatmeimcoollikeblisteringspeed

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

ur other pic was funnier imo

 

[pheX]

dude he's ****, but i think he mostly specializes in comboing and fighting the fast fallers

I agree with that. I think he would have been defeated by Mangos and then Hbox Jiggz from 2007 till now. I also think Armada would have beaten him at 2009. But we can never tell. He is an amazing fox player and i hope we'll see more from him.