VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[_lemons]

don't dash attack into a wd back fsmash

 

[Sim]

> You dont approach with turnips, plain and simple. If you do have a turnip in your hand, run towards him like you're gonna turnip--> then smash throw it behind you and go into a floating low bair.

Haha that's original. I don't think it will work repeatedly though but I can mix it up I guess and it'll confuse him.

> Edguarding

Thanks for the advice. I was actually forced to do that but I never thought of beating his fireballs. Since he doesn't expect me there he'll go for the sweetspot (naturally) and that's when you can punish his follow-up.

> Also, DI as if he were Falcon. You're gonna get hit by a few up airs, but it really doesnt matter cuz Mario can only follow it up with ****ty options.

That's where trouble rings the door. If I DI that way (down and away), mario will foll0w-up with a sweetspot FIRESMASH once he's spaced correctly. He'll juggle with me with a few uairs until he can space it right, and then BAM, in da face!
It's not like doc because the mario firesmash has much greater range than doc's and it also hits much above the stage! Mario also wavelands really far so if I DI that way he'll just waveland across the stage and fsmash, and then I'll cry because I should have DI'd up >_>
But If I do I get infinite juggle'd, which isn't better.

> Shield pressure is key here. He cant do anything about repeated FC nairs/bairs on his shield but roll away, which you can predict and punish.

Well, if I'm not quick enough I get jabbed in the face, but that's something I can practice.

> He can punish FC aerial --> downsmash depending on how close he is, so be careful with that.

Yes, indeed. It's a chance I also play Puff so I don't have my finger always hovering above the c-stick because I would get *****. Mario's dsmash has in fact more range than, and beats peach's. Also, his fsmash has also more range, and I've seen him wd > usmash a few times.

I usualyl follow-up my FC aerials with grabs, but half the time I get jab'd so I jab instead, or wd back and re-establish. Or I just space it wrong for once and eat a fsmash / utilt / ftilt in the face.

dumb >.<

Thanks man, much appreciated.

> don't dash attack into a wd back fsmash

Where did I type wd back fsmash? lol. I typed "fsmash spaced incredibly well". It's beyond wd back fsmash. It's the exact positioning which punishes best any of my moves, as well as leaving little to no opening because mario has little dead frames after that fsmash (can follow-up with jab which is very fast, or utilt which pops up after a delicious 5 frames and ruins my aerial approach --> same as marth btw).

thx anyway man, I won't do it I promise.

 

[thesage]

Sounds like you're too predictable.

 

[Dark Hart]

wait...

Mario's downsmash > Peach's downsmash??

 

[_lemons]

trufax, I didn't actually read your post. My biggest problem with my extremely limited mario experience has been mario's WD back and fsmashing when i get predictable with dash attack (happens soooo much)

 

[Sim]

> Mario's downsmash > Peach's downsmash??

Depends on the spacing, but yeah, it can happen. Don't know why, though.
But I've played that mario for over 30 hours so...

also, the upsmash has strange priority as well.

> Sounds like you're too predictable.

Maybe, that's why I request help from you guys and get more suggestions concerning mix-up solutions. So far, rosedemon's post was quite enlightening.

> My biggest problem with my extremely limited mario experience has been mario's WD back and fsmashing when i get predictable with dash attack (happens soooo much)

Yea, it could definitely happen.
He's a player that adapts quite fast, and he hates Peach AND knows that the fsmash is bothersome, so he tries to plug it the most he can.

Now, I don't have as an habit to dash attack that much, I usually use it to juggle FFers, but I know for sure that he's been placing fsmashes in weird ways, and that I couldn't do much about it since mario has little down time when doing it and it has great range (compared to Doc's).

So... the main problem I have is that at first, when I started playing him, I was winning most of the matches because I was playing pretty ABC smash. Long story short he adapted, I started mixing things up but ran out of useful approaches and follow-ups because of the cape and his spaced fsmashes, mainly.

Any ideas?

 

[bladeofapollo]

The first thing you should keep in mind is that you're not playing this match from 0-120% like with every other character. Mario WILL combo you, but he can't kill you unless you mess up bad. So you're usually playing from 60-180%. Which means you don't have much of a CC game.

Also, in dealing with his ground game, you gotta float a little higher than usual, cuz Usmash and tilt-Fsmash hit pretty high.

 

[Rosedemon]

Honestly, you shouldnt be in a position be combo'd by upair while also being close enough to the ground to be hit by a sweetspotted forward smash. Even if you are (which means you're at low percents, or getting combo'd above a platform), Mario's killing power is so ****ty that you can DI to live almost ANY follow up.

Mario's downsmash beats Peach's because it comes out faster while also having larger startup range (remember, her downsmash hitbox gets slightly larger the longer its out). But there really shouldnt be a situation where you're challenging downsmashes with him.

Like I said, its not a game of mixups and approaches. You ARE a better character. Just hit him, and then hit him some more. You could simply outlast him because you're Peach and hes Mario.

 

[ConnorTheKid]

the mario brothers are an odd match up

just down smash that *****

 

[KirbyKaze]

what the ****

 

[DoH]

April Fools *****es

 

[thesage]

down smash

 

[MacD]

i wish i understood these posts...

i hope i find a way to avoid this site tomorrow

 

[PandaCobo]

why is peach's dpwn tilt rarley used? i have matched lots of peach vids and the d-tilt is not used very often. i think it starts some great air combos or at least at higher percents can lead to a fair. Maybe it is because im new to playing smash at higher levels.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Needs setup, awesome though, needs to be used more.

 

[thesage]

D-tilt is awkward to space, it has awesome rewards, but awkward to space.

Also I started intercepting spacies with uair today. It's awesome.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Favorite dtilt use, WD back, dtilt against a fairing or bairing sheik. Dtilt SO good.

 

[Get Low]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k

I know most of you have seen this, but I was wondering, what other characters besides Ganondorf do you think this could be pulled off against?

 

[john!]

rockcrock played that match really poorly, in my opinion. he had plenty of opportunities to hit peach and just failed to do so.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Help my Peach!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJKv7X9HmFw&feature=channel_video_title

I know it's friendlies and Raynex wasn't "trying" or whatever but I actually was so point out my errors and faults and shortcomings. The B-throw when I was CGing him was a mistake. I don't like turnips vs Fox that much onstage because I feel they're too slow unless Fox is committing to a fullscreen camp or something.

Beyond that, I'm totally open to criticism and eagerly await your comments!

 

[john!]

your peach is already better than most of ours... lol

it's hard to criticize peach matches vs. a good fox, because the peach can do almost nothing wrong and still lose. peach only wins if the fox makes mistakes. i'll watch them later and point things out if i notice anything

 

[Composeur]

Haha, the first KO sounds like a chicken bawking.

Um, so your peach is rull good. A few times you made effective use of saving her float to defy expectations. You did the same with her grabs, really effectively using them to punish when you made good reads. Nice footwork with the wavedashing, as well. You kept him on his toes. Overall, your defensive game seems really solid to me. Really smart playing. Good quick nairs, too.

He only went for one shinespike and it looks like he got it pretty easily, but I don't know if you were exceptionally careless because of a random lapse in focus or if that situation is something that you actually need to think more about.

Keep it up ^^ You're already one of the finest peach players...

 

[KirbyKaze]

Haha, the first KO sounds like a chicken bawking.

Um, so your peach is rull good. A few times you made effective use of saving her float to defy expectations. You did the same with her grabs, really effectively using them to punish when you made good reads. Nice footwork with the wavedashing, as well. You kept him on his toes. Overall, your defensive game seems really solid to me. Really smart playing. Good quick nairs, too.

Haha, Raynex was playing sort of sloppy and complaining about not knowing what to do the entire time so it was easier to "read" him than normal

I really like floating and then dropping out of the float. It feels like a good way to stay mobile and force them to adjust their spacing while still retaining the ability to change plans or add actions. The wavedash movement is just a habit retained from several years of being a Sheik main (Kirby and Ice Climbers are also fairly WD-heavy characters and I mained them prior to Sheik, which also encourages this habit).

I love her Nair. I'm not sure it's really that good vs Fox but Raynex is kind of rushy so I don't like trying to get an elaborate Fair or Bair setup going. I feel Fox can just keep you from getting your positioning and then wreck you from there.

He only went for one shinespike and it looks like he got it pretty easily, but I don't know if you were exceptionally careless because of a random lapse in focus or if that situation is something that you actually need to think more about.

He went for another and it turned into a FF laser off the ledge. In the Dreamland match

I do agree I'm not good at avoiding Shines offstage, though. I'm really unsure how to go about trying to dodge them. I normally just toss out a hitbox and hope for the best but lately they've been shining me through my startup or through the move itself. I'm considering trying to time Up+B to get the invincibility but bleh.

Shines are hard to fight. Definitely open to some outside input on this one.

Keep it up ^^ You're already one of the finest peach players...

Haha, I doubt it. I'm trying though lolol.

 

[Rosedemon]

KK logged off of aim before I could talk to him, so this is me saying sorry:

 

[thesage]

I just watched the first match. Don't always pull a turnip when edgeguarding fox. Go for bair/dair against up-b and nair against side b.

Good movement and fc's though. I wish I could've Peach ditto'd you at Pound 5. How would slow campy Peach fair against fast Peach.

 

[PandaCobo]

so i went to a tourny and try different applications with the dtilt. Spacing with it was horrible, as mentioned. Against fast fallers, except waveshinning fox, CCing d-tilt to a n-air or a f-air did wonders.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I just watched the first match. Don't always pull a turnip when edgeguarding fox. Go for bair/dair against up-b and nair against side b.

Good movement and fc's though. I wish I could've Peach ditto'd you at Pound 5. How would slow campy Peach fair against fast Peach.

I actually remembered that turnips =/= always good after the 1st match. I think I was a lot better about it as the games went on. This addresses a different problem anyway, though, so I'm glad you brought it up. I'm not always 100% sure when I should be grabbing a veggie or not; I'm not really familiar with the distances where it's good to or the general rules of thumb or anything like that. Can anyone share some wisdom on that one?

Also, now that spacies don't DI or DI away from the weak turnips, the inability to combo to an aerial directly makes me sad when I use turnips. I still like using them and I feel I can cover a bunch of options when I do, but I really wish it just combo'd them straight into the Nair or whatever and made them dead

Fox is hard enough without his recovery also being good.

 

[thesage]

I do turnip to fair usually. Armada is good at edgeguarding spacies with turnips watch that. IDK how to explain it though, it's just something you have to know... =/

 

[KirbyKaze]

Well that doesn't help me

How am I supposed to "know"?

 

[Teczer0]

You do sorta get a feel for it once you keep playing her =3.

I guess I would say, don't pull it if you hit someone with a weak move to nab them off. That way you can be more responsive to fast recoveries like DJ immediate illusion.

If you landed like a fair or something I'd say its worth it to pull a turnip and throw it out of a FH to cover a high fire fox.

If you're far away pull a turnip and do a dash throw to cover illusion, its not like you'd reach it without pulling the turnip anywho.

 

[KirbyKaze]

^ thank you

I know a lot of this is probably intuitive and known by all of you but I've not been playing her as long so tell me anyway :x

 

[Teczer0]

If by all of you, you meant Armada then sure =3.

I learned a lot of edgeguard tricks from watching him play

<33333

 

[MacD]

You do sorta get a feel for it once you keep playing her =3.

I guess I would say, don't pull it if you hit someone with a weak move to nab them off. That way you can be more responsive to fast recoveries like DJ immediate illusion.

If you landed like a fair or something I'd say its worth it to pull a turnip and throw it out of a FH to cover a high fire fox.

If you're far away pull a turnip and do a dash throw to cover illusion, its not like you'd reach it without pulling the turnip anywho.

this is what i was gonna say, only thing i'd add is if they are far out, you kinda just gotta judge how high to go/throw the turnip, so like different heights from her jump, not always at the highest (which i'm sure you already knew )

i'm sure you've seen my do the dash throw, lately i've been missing with that which is , but normally i'll get it

but one thing is, you gotta know how far the turnip is gonna go from your throw, ergo the you gotta get a feel for it

i'll either edit this after i watch the match or talk to you on aim or something

the closer fox is to the ledge, the less you should go out from it, like in the first match, i forgot where it was but he came up under your bair and got you

about 4:20 he up'Bed really close to the stage and you had a turnip, you can do that turnip > nair stuff in situations like that

ouch, shine spike at 5:15 and the one at 4:50ish? i forgot the time mark, i'll talk to you on aim about avoiding shine spikes, but yea, dropping your float there was a horrible idea, once you dropped your float, you were dead

lol at all the z drop regrab of turnips

you know this i'm sure, but around like 8:40-8:50, i saw you keep float > dairing, but on yoshi's, if you float before the slant, they have a lot more room for error because you are so high above the ledge, so you have to float near the ledge, it's annoying and makes it easy to miss edgeguards

the shine should have hit you at 9:00, idk why it didn't

when you died about 10:50, gotta watch your float heights back to the stage if they are there, like there you weren't high enough to come back safely with a fair against a fox, best option would have probably been float right before the ledge and bait the usmash or just take the ledge

at like 12:40ish or so, you got a grab with your back facing the ledge, at lower percents, you can dthrow and tech chase them, only have like 2 options to cover and it's easy to react to tech roll behind you, especially if they try DIing off the stage and dont make it

lol armada syndrome, whenever you upthrow onto a platform, don't be afriad to wavedash on and catch them, you keep going for the missed tech or tech in place or something, but he's been getting there and shielding first

i think that is a good summary, idk, you know i suck at this but whatever, should be enough to get you going

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

4:20 he up'Bed really close to the stage and you had a turnip, you can do that turnip > nair stuff in situations like that

he shoulda been doing something else at 4:20

 

[Rosedemon]

Dash throwing covers almost any low option, and sets you up for an edgeguard if they dodge and come from below.

Dash throwing *****.

 

[thesage]

Dash throwing?

 

[MacD]

like

you are running, then push A to throw

ie dash attack with a turnip

 

[Teczer0]

Man.

Then an actual peach main makes me look silly.

Way to go McCain

 

[MacD]

haha, well i wanted to say what you said before watching the vid, but didn't know how to/care how to, then you did it for me haha

then idk, the knowledge took over for me

which is surprising cause i've been playing LoL for like a week straight now with no smash (yes vanz, that's really me, geez)

 

[GooeyBanana]

I would love some advice as well on how not to get shine spiked so easily offstage against Fox when recovering lower if you wouldn't mind sometime MacDeezy =3