Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[Sonsa]

Hey people! I guess I took a bit of a day off for my Financial Accounting exam haha, but I'm here happy to discuss matchups!

Oh, and for our front page I really think we should have a combination of the best of what other matchup threads are doing, for example the Rosalina Matchup Thread is one of many to have a cool chart, but the R.O.B. Matchup Thread has links to notable discussions, which I think would be great because people would be able to get the numbers quickly, but also delve deeper to figure out how we got the numbers and get our advice!
Plus it would help people find what they're looking for instead of just opening up another discussion on an already discussed character, I went through the whole thread today to see what has yet to be covered and Sheik came up a few times. [Edit: The Lucina Matchup Thread is beautiful! Definitely the one to aspire to!]

Another character that came up a few times was Mario, so I guess I'll try to give an overview for that and Doc while I'm at it. I haven't fought many Mario mains, so my matchup experience is limited, responses are always welcome and encouraged!

Villager vs Mario
I guess I'll start with what you can pocket. If you successfully bait the cape at a safe distance, you can get your own tree and gyroids, which are great. You can also pocket some FLUDD water, but only one unit, your watering can is probably better, but hey, this wouldn't need a set-up so use it if you think it'll come in handy and you want your tree up or just need to rush! Mario most likely won't use FLUDD in this matchup though, but I'll get to that later.
Last thing you can pocket is Mario's fireball. It won't do much knockback, but could be some decent damage and maybe even gimp. Villager doesn't have many diagonal options, so this can be nice while it lasts.

Now, why Marios usually won't bother charging FLUDD is of Villager's stellar recovery of course. But in the off-chance it is charged... um... I dunno, it really isn't that big a threat. Just try to balloons quickly to the edge. You may get stage spiked if you're too slow, but you can just try to tech that. Mario's will also want to spike you with their forward air when you're off-stage, so be quick, or have great control of floating with balloons and space. I've never seen this, but recovering diagonally, you could get your balloons popped with fireballs! Or one popped and then spiked by a forward air. So I'd recommend coming in at a right angle, stay low until you're under the ledge (or on walled stages, just a safe distance) and then float up to the ledge.

I'd never really recommend riding on gyroid to recover if Mario is just there waiting. If he's been blasted away at the same time as you in some sort of trade, sure, if you wanna get back to the stage quick because you have some momentum, go for it, but otherwise you'll get caped. You could try mindgames by holding back - slowing the gyroid as you ride it - fool him into caping - and then hold forward to speed up and potentially kill him, but this is still too risky. If he just jumps ahead a bit and capes you, I believe you'll be unable to get off, drift off the stage, and then be hit by an extra tough explosion from the gyroid.

On stage, Mario will want to get in and rack up damage and throw back anything you throw at him, all while covering his approaches with fireballs. Some approaches will just be trying to grab you, some will be descending with a down-air spin or short hop neutral-air, or some might be frustrated with your walls and just send fireballs from a distance and hoping to cape back gyroids and run in to cape your tree.
So here's what I think you should do when approached with these! To avoid fireballs and grabs, short hop turnips and follow up with an umbrella f-tilt! When you see him short-hop dair or nair, you short-hop slingshot - That'll teach him to try and go in! If they get frustrated and decide to fight spacing and camping with the same, I tend to inch forward with a gyroid on the ground, I think they can take 2 or 3 fireballs, and short-hopping slingshot and nair when close enough.
Mario is around the same weight as you, a little heavier, and he isn't particularly floaty, so you can effectively juggle him with up-air turnips for a bit.

Once you get him off the stage you can try to spike him with them too. Mario's can be killed with a bowling ball over the ledge, but your timing needs to be good. Mario's up-b is diagonal, so you can't hit him as he starts with it, but once it's about over and he tries to snap to the ledge, that is your window of opportunity. Plus his up-b actually has more priority, so if you hurl it as he's rising, it may have no effect! Your window of opportunity for this usually is actually kinda strict! So I recommend turnips instead. Even if you dont get the spike you can go deeper and deeper with more turnips or slingshots. Mario's recovery is very limited after he loses his second jump, so gimping is definitely not a bad option.

Oh, another thought! Mario's may try to dash attack you as the hitbox stays out for a while, but the endlag does too, so you can shield-grab this and go for a back throw. Get some space or play an off-stage game, both preferable. Other common Mario tactics include down-throw up-tilt up-tilt up-tilt etc, which you should just jump away from. If somehow your second jump is used and he caught you again, nair. And another miscellaneous thought! For Mario's up-smash, his head has invincibility. Keep this in mind when landing, turnips have a disjointed hitbox, but they might not be the best option at the time.

Mario is an all-around character and doesn't really overwhelm anyone with superior anything, but he's pretty capable, and that's demonstrated pretty well in this matchup. Mario wants to go in and rack up damage - and he can - but if he fails he can try to adapt and play in a different style, a campier one. Mario can only capitalize and make a great kill off stage if you slip up (using riding gyroid, positioning yourself in an unfavorable way, or missing a tech) In this matchup you can't really be overwhelmed by speed or lack of space, but you still need to be smart and stick to strong fundamentals as Mario can keep up with you. I think you have a slight advantage with the off stage game being pretty significantly in your favor and the on-stage game being quite even. I'd say this matchup is 57.5:42.5.

Villager vs Dr. Mario
Now! This is a similar matchup... but there are a few changes that make things significantly different. I'll just cover what's same first.
-You can still pocket everything before, just pills instead of fireballs and no FLUDD water.
-I don't think Mario and Doc's capes act any differently.
-The off-stage game is mostly the same, Doc can only try to foward air-spike you, back-air stage spike you, or hope to gimp you with pills popping balloons.
-Doc's will approach the same, covering approaches with pills and short-hopping down air or nair, or try to grab with a follow up. -They can also try to camp, reflecting gyroids and throwing pills.

Here's what's different! Doc's recovery is a bit different, when very far they'll want to tornado first. When it ends you can try and spike them with turnips! If you don't get lucky, it will usually be enough to gimp them though! Just have good timing and don't get to close! If your timing is off, tornado and both his stronger up-b can hurt you bad! If you're worried about space, you can just try to slingshot him when he's vulnerable. What's he going to do? Cape or shield? Maybe, but after a tornado he needs to up-b or he'll usually die, so I wouldn't worry too much. Maybe you get a slingshot reflected at you which might kill at 150% or so, but he'll fall to his death too.

Doc has no FLUDD to worry about (not like it really helped Mario much in the first place in this matchup) but in its stead he's got the tornado. Helps his recovery if you're not there to interfere because of a trade or something, but can also help him land. If Doc's see you below them hoping to punish something, they'll want to fast-fall tornado before you can. You can juggle Doc like you can Mario, but if you're too late and see him spinning I wouldn't recommend trying to out-prioritize it. It has some noticeable ending lag so I'd punish with a grab or down-smash shovel instead!

Doc's main difference from Mario is he's stronger but slower. He also gets rougher endlag... He can try camping you back with pills and reflections, but I recommend short hopping gyroid, falling slingshot, stay grounded if gyroid is reflected and prepare to f-tilt or something until you can do gyroid again. Keep it up until he gets frustrated and has to go in or makes a mistake with endlag you can punish. If you want to be aggressive and go for short hop turnips or something, it isn't as safe an option, but Doc has the same average range as Mario. Just prepare for an up-air or something. Being up-close is where Doc wants you to be, but even then you can handle yourself pretty well.

Dr. Mario sacrifices some speed for harder hits...which harms more than helps in this matchup. Whereas Mario could keep up with Villager and potentially give him a hard time getting hits in, Doc can't as often. Doc may be able to kill earlier due to neither Mario or him being able to kill Villager off-stage that well and Doc having better damage and knockback, but getting in and landing hits has become that much more of a challenge. I'd say this matchup is 62.5:47.5

Stages I would take these two would be: Battlefield, Lylat, Smashville, maybe Town&City, mayyybe Wuhu, maybe even FD and Omega stages.
Walled stages aren't as important, I'm looking for big stages with room to run, take advantage of better spacing, and lots of off-stage area to play around in.

Stages I'd try to avoid: Duck Hunt, Halberd, Delfino.
Duck Hunt doesn't have enough off-stage to take advantage of and you could die earlier to a back-throw from the Marios. Halberd has a low ceiling, which you can kill with better than Mario probably, but it just isn't a preferable stage when there's plenty of others that give you more of an advantage. Plus Mario could catch you with an up-b in the air and potentially steal your stock. Delfino has too many walk-offs and swimming areas which aren't as helpful when you want to gimp. If your opponent counter-picks this though, you'll at least have room to run. But trees can disappear from transition to transition.

I don't think I missed anything, but go ahead and let me know if I did or if you disagree with anything! Also if anyone has recommendations of who to talk about next I find these in-depth analyses pretty fun.

 

[AnchorTea]

Hey people! I guess I took a bit of a day off for my Financial Accounting exam haha, but I'm here happy to discuss matchups!

Oh, and for our front page I really think we should have a combination of the best of what other matchup threads are doing, for example the Rosalina Matchup Thread is one of many to have a cool chart, but the R.O.B. Matchup Thread has links to notable discussions, which I think would be great because people would be able to get the numbers quickly, but also delve deeper to figure out how we got the numbers and get our advice!
Plus it would help people find what they're looking for instead of just opening up another discussion on an already discussed character, I went through the whole thread today to see what has yet to be covered and Sheik came up a few times.

Another character that came up a few times was Mario, so I guess I'll try to give an overview for that and Doc while I'm at it. I haven't fought many Mario mains, so my matchup experience is limited, responses are always welcome and encouraged!

Villager vs Mario
I guess I'll start with what you can pocket. If you successfully bait the cape at a safe distance, you can get your own tree and gyroids, which are great. You can also pocket some FLUDD water, but only one unit, your watering can is probably better, but hey, this wouldn't need a set-up so use it if you think it'll come in handy and you want your tree up or just need to rush! Mario most likely won't use FLUDD in this matchup though, but I'll get to that later.
Last thing you can pocket is Mario's fireball. It won't do much knockback, but could be some decent damage and maybe even gimp. Villager doesn't have many diagonal options, so this can be nice while it lasts.

Now, why Marios usually won't bother charging FLUDD is of Villager's stellar recovery of course. But in the off-chance it is charged... um... I dunno, it really isn't that big a threat. Just try to balloons quickly to the edge. You may get stage spiked if you're too slow, but you can just try to tech that. Mario's will also want to spike you with their forward air when you're off-stage, so be quick, or have great control of floating with balloons and space. I've never seen this, but recovering diagonally, you could get your balloons popped with fireballs! Or one popped and then spiked by a forward air. So I'd recommend coming in at a right angle, stay low until you're under the ledge (or on walled stages, just a safe distance) and then float up to the ledge.

I'd never really recommend riding on gyroid to recover if Mario is just there waiting. If he's been blasted away at the same time as you in some sort of trade, sure, if you wanna get back to the stage quick because you have some momentum, go for it, but otherwise you'll get caped. You could try mindgames by holding back - slowing the gyroid as you ride it - fool him into caping - and then hold forward to speed up and potentially kill him, but this is still too risky. If he just jumps ahead a bit and capes you, I believe you'll be unable to get off, drift off the stage, and then be hit by an extra tough explosion from the gyroid.

On stage, Mario will want to get in and rack up damage and throw back anything you throw at him, all while covering his approaches with fireballs. Some approaches will just be trying to grab you, some will be descending with a down-air spin or short hop neutral-air, or some might be frustrated with your walls and just send fireballs from a distance and hoping to cape back gyroids and run in to cape your tree.
So here's what I think you should do when approached with these! To avoid fireballs and grabs, short hop turnips and follow up with an umbrella f-tilt! When you see him short-hop dair or nair, you short-hop slingshot - That'll teach him to try and go in! If they get frustrated and decide to fight spacing and camping with the same, I tend to inch forward with a gyroid on the ground, I think they can take 2 or 3 fireballs, and short-hopping slingshot and nair when close enough.
Mario is around the same weight as you, a little heavier, and he isn't particularly floaty, so you can effectively juggle him with up-air turnips for a bit.

Once you get him off the stage you can try to spike him with them too. Mario's can be killed with a bowling ball over the ledge, but your timing needs to be good. Mario's up-b is diagonal, so you can't hit him as he starts with it, but once it's about over and he tries to snap to the ledge, that is your window of opportunity. Plus his up-b actually has more priority, so if you hurl it as he's rising, it may have no effect! Your window of opportunity for this usually is actually kinda strict! So I recommend turnips instead. Even if you dont get the spike you can go deeper and deeper with more turnips or slingshots. Mario's recovery is very limited after he loses his second jump, so gimping is definitely not a bad option.

Oh, another thought! Mario's may try to dash attack you as the hitbox stays out for a while, but the endlag does too, so you can shield-grab this and go for a back throw. Get some space or play an off-stage game, both preferable. Other common Mario tactics include down-throw up-tilt up-tilt up-tilt etc, which you should just jump away from. If somehow your second jump is used and he caught you again, nair. And another miscellaneous thought! For Mario's up-smash, his head has invincibility. Keep this in mind when landing, turnips have a disjointed hitbox, but they might not be the best option at the time.

Mario is an all-around character and doesn't really overwhelm anyone with superior anything, but he's pretty capable, and that's demonstrated pretty well in this matchup. Mario wants to go in and rack up damage - and he can - but if he fails he can try to adapt and play in a different style, a campier one. Mario can only capitalize and make a great kill off stage if you slip up (using riding gyroid, positioning yourself in an unfavorable way, or missing a tech) In this matchup you can't really be overwhelmed by speed or lack of space, but you still need to be smart and stick to strong fundamentals as Mario can keep up with you. I think you have a slight advantage with the off stage game being pretty significantly in your favor and the on-stage game being quite even. I'd say this matchup is 57.5:42.5.

Villager vs Dr. Mario
Now! This is a similar matchup... but there are a few changes that make things significantly different. I'll just cover what's same first.
-You can still pocket everything before, just pills instead of fireballs and no FLUDD water.
-I don't think Mario and Doc's capes act any differently.
-The off-stage game is mostly the same, Doc can only try to foward air-spike you, back-air stage spike you, or hope to gimp you with pills popping balloons.
-Doc's will approach the same, covering approaches with pills and short-hopping down air or nair, or try to grab with a follow up. -They can also try to camp, reflecting gyroids and throwing pills.

Here's what's different! Doc's recovery is a bit different, when very far they'll want to tornado first. When it ends you can try and spike them with turnips! If you don't get lucky, it will usually be enough to gimp them though! Just have good timing and don't get to close! If your timing is off, tornado and both his stronger up-b can hurt you bad! If you're worried about space, you can just try to slingshot him when he's vulnerable. What's he going to do? Cape or shield? Maybe, but after a tornado he needs to up-b or he'll usually die, so I wouldn't worry too much. Maybe you get a slingshot reflected at you which might kill at 150% or so, but he'll fall to his death too.

Doc has no FLUDD to worry about (not like it really helped Mario much in the first place in this matchup) but in its stead he's got the tornado. Helps his recovery if you're not there to interfere because of a trade or something, but can also help him land. If Doc's see you below them hoping to punish something, they'll want to fast-fall tornado before you can. You can juggle Doc like you can Mario, but if you're too late and see him spinning I wouldn't recommend trying to out-prioritize it. It has some noticeable ending lag so I'd punish with a grab or down-smash shovel instead!

Doc's main difference from Mario is he's stronger but slower. He also gets rougher endlag... He can try camping you back with pills and reflections, but I recommend short hopping gyroid, falling slingshot, stay grounded if gyroid is reflected and prepare to f-tilt or something until you can do gyroid again. Keep it up until he gets frustrated and has to go in or makes a mistake with endlag you can punish. If you want to be aggressive and go for short hop turnips or something, it isn't as safe an option, but Doc has the same average range as Mario. Just prepare for an up-air or something. Being up-close is where Doc wants you to be, but even then you can handle yourself pretty well.

Dr. Mario sacrifices some speed for harder hits...which harms more than helps in this matchup. Whereas Mario could keep up with Villager and potentially give him a hard time getting hits in, Doc can't as often. Doc may be able to kill earlier due to neither Mario or him being able to kill Villager off-stage that well and Doc having better damage and knockback, but getting in and landing hits has become that much more of a challenge. I'd say this matchup is 62.5:47.5

Stages I would take these two would be: Battlefield, Lylat, Smashville, maybe Town&City, mayyybe Wuhu, maybe even FD and Omega stages. Walled stages aren't as important, I'm looking for big stages with room to run, take advantage of better spacing, and lots of off-stage area to play around in.

Stages I'd try to avoid: Duck Hunt, Halberd, Delfino. Duck Hunt doesn't have enough off-stage to take advantage of and you could die earlier to a back-throw from the Marios. Halberd has a low ceiling, which you can kill with better than Mario probably, but it just isn't a preferable stage when there's plenty of others that give you more of an advantage. Plus Mario could catch you with an up-b in the air and potentially steal your stock. Delfino has too many walk-offs and swimming areas which aren't as helpful when you want to gimp. If your opponent counter-picks this though, you'll at least have room to run. But trees can disappear from transition to transition.

I don't think I missed anything, but go ahead and let me know if I did or if you disagree with anything! Also if anyone has recommendations of who to talk about next I find these in-depth analyses pretty fun.

I shall pray to you every night from now on...

 

[Zensay]

I was wondering if anyone was interested in discussing :4Marth:? I can't seem to find much in the way of discussion or videos between these two. Personally I find it more of a waiting game as Villager than other characters, but that of course could just be my style/experience. Here are my thoughts:

Marth Advantage:

Better ground game in general with speed, reach, and ability to grab OOS with little to no punishment.
Tipper can kill as early as 60%
Attacks seem to have just the right amount of lag that they are easy to avoid but not easy to punish due to spacing.
Typically doesn't have to worry about being grabbed.
Has a long counter window and able to counter Llyods to ignore damage and punish grab approaches.
Sword typically out prioritizes turnips and makes juggling more difficult.
Higher shield pressure forces more dodges and rolls.
Spacing can force your slingshots to stay at max range causing little damage/kb.
Able to keep stage control easier and limits options for returning to stage with good edge guard ability.
Up+B can stage spike at higher percents while returning with balloons. Can also eat through turnips gimps if expected.
Attacks can reach through tree.
Has nothing to pocket.

Marth Disadvantage:

Is forced to approach.
Once off stage can be gimped with ranged attacks rather safely.
Has a very hard time gimping Villager. Greedy Marth's can eat a slingshot to the face and get stage spiked.
Taller target, easier to hit with slingshots.
Many of his attacks leave him wide open and have a lot of lag that is very punishable if positioned right.
Counter timber sapling and tree aid in keep away harassment games.
Explosive balloons can mess with his gimp game hard.

Overall I feel you need to play keep away and out range Marth. Selective OOS options at certain percents are good but make sure he is knocked away enough afterwords or else you will get hit. Harass him until he gets frustrated and goes for something risky. You will become very familiar with the ledge in this MU as off stage is very safe for you in comparison. Punishing jumps and mix ups with trees along with off stage ranged gimps seem to be the best time to get your KO's.

 

[Sonsa]

I was wondering if anyone was interested in discussing :4Marth:? I can't seem to find much in the way of discussion or videos between these two. Personally I find it more of a waiting game as Villager than other characters, but that of course could just be my style/experience. Here are my thoughts:

Marth Advantage:

Better ground game in general with speed, reach, and ability to grab OOS with little to no punishment.
Tipper can kill as early as 60%
Attacks seem to have just the right amount of lag that they are easy to avoid but not easy to punish due to spacing.
Typically doesn't have to worry about being grabbed.
Has a long counter window and able to counter Llyods to ignore damage and punish grab approaches.
Sword typically out prioritizes turnips and makes juggling more difficult.
Higher shield pressure forces more dodges and rolls.
Spacing can force your slingshots to stay at max range causing little damage/kb.
Able to keep stage control easier and limits options for returning to stage with good edge guard ability.
Up+B can stage spike at higher percents while returning with balloons. Can also eat through turnips gimps if expected.
Attacks can reach through tree.
Has nothing to pocket.

Marth Disadvantage:

Is forced to approach.
Once off stage can be gimped with ranged attacks rather safely.
Has a very hard time gimping Villager. Greedy Marth's can eat a slingshot to the face and get stage spiked.
Taller target, easier to hit with slingshots.
Many of his attacks leave him wide open and have a lot of lag that is very punishable if positioned right.
Counter timber sapling can destroy most approaches and force easy to punish jumps. Makes edge guarding much safer.
Counter tree makes for an amazing defensive tool to hide behind while spamming that punishes his approaches and most attacks due to the wide arcs.
Explosive balloons can shut down his gimp game entirely if played properly. Also make for a great mix up/ko option on a Marth returning from above.

Overall I feel you need to play keep away and out range Marth. Selective OOS options at certain percents are good but make sure he is knocked away enough afterwords or else you will get hit. Harass him until he gets frustrated and goes for something risky. You will become very familiar with the ledge in this MU as off stage is very safe for you in comparison. Punishing jumps and mix ups with trees along with off stage ranged gimps seem to be the best time to get your KO's.

Sure, I love discussin this stuff! I agree with a lot of what you say and think I have a few things to add. Just wanna put my emotes so when scrolling back I can find this quicker
Villager vs Marth
You're right about it being a waiting game. Marth is usually waiting for a moment to dash in and grab you or poke you with his sword, and Villager is waiting for one if his moves to hit hard so he can go for a safer follow-up. What I find especially interesting and dangerous in this matchup is Marth's tipper... the spacing in this match is very scary, you definitely want to keep your space and see what hits (slingshots, gyroids) but you don't want to commit to anything with too much start-up or you could get tippered and die!

Marth also has some nice combos that you can't really nair your way out of usually, as his sword, naturally with no hurtbox, is usually keeping you a safe distance away. You need good DI and air-dodges, which good players can expect and punish.

So on-stage, Villager is suffering a bit as Marth not only keeps up with him, but can usually stop us from what we're doing with a down-tilt or something. I recommend actually going in a little, the best defense here seems to be a good offense, and when Marth is in hitstun from short-hop turnips or an f-tilt, you can try setting up your tree and definitely launch another gyroid. I also think when you have to box, down-tilt (weed pulling) is a good tool as it covers more space than it looks and can get reliable follow-up slingshot.

Off-stage, Villager has a pretty good advantage. You can cover your approach to the ledge with a gyroid and falling slingshot, and poke him with up-air turnips if he tries to counter these. Marth can't really pop two balloons at the same time, but can go a bit deep trying to get a down-air. When Marth's off-stage his recovery is a bit more predictable and you can probably time your bowling balls and turnips correctly, but what you said about his sword out-prioritizing this with good timing is still true. Maybe you should try going deep and using nair or a slingshot instead? He has to up-b at a certain point and is just waiting to position himself correctly, so if you get in his way you could get stage spiked with up-b with bad timing, or if you have better timing and stay away from the stage aiming for Marth's back I think you'll be good!

Ledge-trumping is also a good option! Since you can predict when Marth will be back, shield the up-b if necessary, run off and do a ledge-trump (quick execution of this requires you to sort of spin the left stick in a circle) and then you can follow up with slingshot or turnips, OR let him grab the ledge again with no invincibility, and turnip spike potentially. Once trumped, Marth either has to go for the ledge again or up-b then and try to fall onto the stage. He has no horizontal way to get back, his neutral-b needs a long charge to get some mobility. Even using up-b and falling towards the stage leaves him helpless AND I'm not even sure he could get back on, I think he may have to grab the ledge anyway. Ledge-trumping is actually a GREAT option for this matchup!

In this matchup I think you're both rewarded for risks and bravery, but slipping up is a bit more devastating. You have to be on-point as Villager to not get tippered, and on-point as Marth to get pushed off and lose the off-stage game. As Villager you want to keep your space but punish a little extra so you have more time to start-up gyroid or things without worrying about getting the tip. Marth can offer some worrisome pressure, attacking at a safe range and even has a shield breaker and counter for when you start looking predictable.
I think this matchup is... demanding. Marth can kill earlier and keep a safe distance but dash in and punish when he needs to. Villager can't take a breath, but can adapt to this with a nice blend of offense and defense. And can go deep off-stage against Marth's somewhat strong, yet predictable recovery.
Let me know what you think the numbers are but for now I'm going to say this is...even? 50:50? Or do one of them have a slight disadvantage? 51.5:48.5 or somethin maybe?

Also while we're here...

Villager vs Lucina
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only huge difference between Lucina and Marth is that Lucina doesn't have a tipper, the power is the same throughout the sword.
This is pretty much the same matchup, but Lucina at a safe distance punishing you quickly isn't as rewarding so she can't kill as quickly.
In this case I'd say the matchup is 55:45 for Villager

Stages I'd prefer taking em: Battlefield, Lylat, Smashville, maybe Wuhu
Stages I wouldn't: FD, Omega stages without walls (preferably ones you cant wall jump off of, Marth and Lucy cant wall-jump), Town&City

 

[Zensay]

Sure, I love discussin this stuff! I agree with a lot of what you say and think I have a few things to add. Just wanna put my emotes so when scrolling back I can find this quicker
Villager vs Marth
You're right about it being a waiting game. Marth is usually waiting for a moment to dash in and grab you or poke you with his sword, and Villager is waiting for one if his moves to hit hard so he can go for a safer follow-up. What I find especially interesting and dangerous in this matchup is Marth's tipper... the spacing in this match is very scary, you definitely want to keep your space and see what hits (slingshots, gyroids) but you don't want to commit to anything with too much start-up or you could get tippered and die!

Marth also has some nice combos that you can't really nair your way out of usually, as his sword, naturally with no hurtbox, is usually keeping you a safe distance away. You need good DI and air-dodges, which good players can expect and punish.

So on-stage, Villager is suffering a bit as Marth not only keeps up with him, but can usually stop us from what we're doing with a down-tilt or something. I recommend actually going in a little, the best defense here seems to be a good offense, and when Marth is in hitstun from short-hop turnips or an f-tilt, you can try setting up your tree and definitely launch another gyroid. I also think when you have to box, down-tilt (weed pulling) is a good tool as it covers more space than it looks and can get reliable follow-up slingshot.

Off-stage, Villager has a pretty good advantage. You can cover your approach to the ledge with a gyroid and falling slingshot, and poke him with up-air turnips if he tries to counter these. Marth can't really pop two balloons at the same time, but can go a bit deep trying to get a down-air. When Marth's off-stage his recovery is a bit more predictable and you can probably time your bowling balls and turnips correctly, but what you said about his sword out-prioritizing this with good timing is still true. Maybe you should try going deep and using nair or a slingshot instead? He has to up-b at a certain point and is just waiting to position himself correctly, so if you get in his way you could get stage spiked with up-b with bad timing, or if you have better timing and stay away from the stage aiming for Marth's back I think you'll be good!

Ledge-trumping is also a good option! Since you can predict when Marth will be back, shield the up-b if necessary, run off and do a ledge-trump (quick execution of this requires you to sort of spin the left stick in a circle) and then you can follow up with slingshot or turnips, OR let him grab the ledge again with no invincibility, and turnip spike potentially. Once trumped, Marth either has to go for the ledge again or up-b then and try to fall onto the stage. He has no horizontal way to get back, his neutral-b needs a long charge to get some mobility. Even using up-b and falling towards the stage leaves him helpless AND I'm not even sure he could get back on, I think he may have to grab the ledge anyway. Ledge-trumping is actually a GREAT option for this matchup!

In this matchup I think you're both rewarded for risks and bravery, but slipping up is a bit more devastating. You have to be on-point as Villager to not get tippered, and on-point as Marth to get pushed off and lose the off-stage game. As Villager you want to keep your space but punish a little extra so you have more time to start-up gyroid or things without worrying about getting the tip. Marth can offer some worrisome pressure, attacking at a safe range and even has a shield breaker and counter for when you start looking predictable.
I think this matchup is... demanding. Marth can kill earlier and keep a safe distance but dash in and punish when he needs to. Villager can't take a breath, but can adapt to this with a nice blend of offense and defense. And can go deep off-stage against Marth's somewhat strong, yet predictable recovery.
Let me know what you think the numbers are but for now I'm going to say this is...even? 50:50? Or do one of them have a slight disadvantage? 51.5:48.5 or somethin maybe?

Also while we're here...

Villager vs Lucina
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only huge difference between Lucina and Marth is that Lucina doesn't have a tipper, the power is the same throughout the sword.
This is pretty much the same matchup, but Lucina at a safe distance punishing you quickly isn't as rewarding so she can't kill as quickly.
In this case I'd say the matchup is 55:45 for Villager

Stages I'd prefer taking em: Battlefield, Lylat, Smashville, maybe Wuhu
Stages I wouldn't: FD, Omega stages without walls (preferably ones you cant wall jump off of, Marth and Lucy cant wall-jump), Town&City

This is most eloquently written and you make a lot of great points! I find this fight to be grueling and frustrating at times because the pace tends to be set by the Marth and I feel like I have a hand tied behind my back on stage. I think your right that you have to get brave in this fight if you want to win. Neither can really take the stock with out going further than whats safe otherwise you might time.

Some points you made that I want to back up:

Down-tilt is a great option in this fight due to the high KB and deceptive hit box. At mid to high percents this can safely pop him up and out of retaliation reach.
Offstage Nair is a great surprise gimp tool if you catch them off guard but I don't suggest doing this when you are at high percents unless you really want to take the gamble as he will most likely be spamming Up+B in a panic and even a sour spot has a good chance to kill you if you are sitting at 100% or above.
Getting behind Marth while he is recovering and hitting him in the back with a sling shot is a much safer option and quite effective.
Ledge-trumping is a fantastic recommendation. The reasons you've listed are more than enough reason to learn this skill to gimp Marth and other characters with similar recovery.

Battlefield and Lylat are really the best places to fight them, especially Lylat when the tilting edges mess with their recovery and they get stuck underneath. Any flat stage is a stage I will not recommend in this MU. Though I prefer to stay away from Delfino and Castle Siege due to the walk off shenanigans, and inconsistent ledge to gimp with. The statues in Castle Siege give a lot of projectile cover too.

 

[Antonykun]

@ Sonsa refrain from calling MUs 57.5/42.5 and stuff the minimum increment is 5:5

 

[Sonsa]

This is most eloquently written and you make a lot of great points! I find this fight to be grueling and frustrating at times because the pace tends to be set by the Marth and I feel like I have a hand tied behind my back on stage. I think your right that you have to get brave in this fight if you want to win. Neither can really take the stock with out going further than whats safe otherwise you might time.

Some points you made that I want to back up:

Down-tilt is a great option in this fight due to the high KB and deceptive hit box. At mid to high percents this can safely pop him up and out of retaliation reach.
Offstage Nair is a great surprise gimp tool if you catch them off guard but I don't suggest doing this when you are at high percents unless you really want to take the gamble as he will most likely be spamming Up+B in a panic and even a sour spot has a good chance to kill you if you are sitting at 100% or above.
Getting behind Marth while he is recovering and hitting him in the back with a sling shot is a much safer option and quite effective.
Ledge-trumping is a fantastic recommendation. The reasons you've listed are more than enough reason to learn this skill to gimp Marth and other characters with similar recovery.

Battlefield and Lylat are really the best places to fight them, especially Lylat when the tilting edges mess with their recovery and they get stuck underneath. Any flat stage is a stage I will not recommend in this MU. Though I prefer to stay away from Delfino and Castle Siege due to the walk off shenanigans, and inconsistent ledge to gimp with. The statues in Castle Siege give a lot of projectile cover too.

Thank you! Ahh, yeah, might wanna avoid those walk-offs, Marth's grab is clearly better. Castle Siege wouldnt be too bad though, especially the 1st and 3rd stage. But on the 2nd I guess I'd stay around the top and try to catch him with a bowling ball. Or just use this stage to try and rack up damage?
Also what would you say the numbers are? Even 50:50?

@ Sonsa refrain from calling MUs 57.5/42.5 and stuff the minimum increment is 5:5

I've seen other threads get very specific with their numbers, but alright I suppose! What do you think the Marth matchup numbers are? And I suppose Mario would be 55:45 while Doc is 60:40 then?

 

[Antonykun]

Thank you! Ahh, yeah, might wanna avoid those walk-offs, Marth's grab is clearly better. Castle Siege wouldnt be too bad though, especially the 1st and 3rd stage. But on the 2nd I guess I'd stay around the top and try to catch him with a bowling ball. Or just use this stage to try and rack up damage?
Also what would you say the numbers are? Even 50:50?

I've seen other threads get very specific with their numbers, but alright I suppose! What do you think the Marth matchup numbers are? And I suppose Mario would be 55:45 while Doc is 60:40 then?

The problem with going more "specific" than 5:5 increments is that people really argue about how specific it has to be. This is why some people use the +/- version.

As for Marth vs Villager...I think it's arbitrarily close to even. Tippers are bad and Marth is borderline ungimpable but Marth can't challenge Lloyd and once you're in you have the better frame data and stuff.

Lucina on the other hand is 55:45 aka still playable. You only have to respect the F-Smash really

 

[Sonsa]

The problem with going more "specific" than 5:5 increments is that people really argue about how specific it has to be. This is why some people use the +/- version.

As for Marth vs Villager...I think it's arbitrarily close to even. Tippers are bad and Marth is borderline ungimpable but Marth can't challenge Lloyd and once you're in you have the better frame data and stuff.

Lucina on the other hand is 55:45 aka still playable. You only have to respect the F-Smash really

Ahh, I see. Alright, guess I'll just say the matchup is about even.
Mhm, agreed. Sounds like the 3 of us came to a pretty good conclusion on that!
Anyone agree with my Mario and Dr.Mario analyses or did I fail to consider something?

 

[Zensay]

Thank you! Ahh, yeah, might wanna avoid those walk-offs, Marth's grab is clearly better. Castle Siege wouldnt be too bad though, especially the 1st and 3rd stage. But on the 2nd I guess I'd stay around the top and try to catch him with a bowling ball. Or just use this stage to try and rack up damage?
Also what would you say the numbers are? Even 50:50?

That is good advice on the 2nd stage which is really the only part I find disadvantageous. Sticking to the top and pelting with projectiles would be the safest thing to do and something I should try doing more often myself.

I think I might give a slight nudge to Villager due to the safety of his offstage slingshot and his edge poke mixups. Yes the slingshot will be doing around 2% most of the time but that's 2% more than what Marth can do if you get campy and overly safe.

Getting onto the stage we have many ways to mix up our recovery and edge pokes to keep him guessing (Slingshot, Turnips, Tree, Rocket) On the other hand Marth only has a few options to get on stage which are all very similar and much more predictable by nature. You even have the option to wait for him a safe distance away to get up or jump and punish with a rocket/slingshot with out fear of a counter attack where as Marth has to be closer to punish a getup and slingshot will almost always be in range. If you whiff you can just retreat and scrape by his dash attack/Fair.

The whole fight sometimes is very much the same song and dance with Marth having the stage and Villager having the ledge. But I think ultimately that is where Marth is forced to take risks if he wants to win where as Villager not so much. I don't think its worth an increment of 5 for Villager though so I'd say 50:50 as well.

 

[Sonsa]

That is good advice on the 2nd stage which is really the only part I find disadvantageous. Sticking to the top and pelting with projectiles would be the safest thing to do and something I should try doing more often myself.

I think I might give a slight nudge to Villager due to the safety of his offstage slingshot and his edge poke mixups. Yes the slingshot will be doing around 2% most of the time but that's 2% more than what Marth can do if you get campy and overly safe.

Getting onto the stage we have many ways to mix up our recovery and edge pokes to keep him guessing (Slingshot, Turnips, Tree, Rocket) On the other hand Marth only has a few options to get on stage which are all very similar and much more predictable by nature. You even have the option to wait for him a safe distance away to get up or jump and punish with a rocket/slingshot with out fear of a counter attack where as Marth has to be closer to punish a getup and slingshot will almost always be in range. If you whiff you can just retreat and scrape by his dash attack/Fair.

The whole fight sometimes is very much the same song and dance with Marth having the stage and Villager having the ledge. But I think ultimately that is where Marth is forced to take risks if he wants to win where as Villager not so much. I don't think its worth an increment of 5 for Villager though so I'd say 50:50 as well.

Mhm, thanks! Yeah, around even I suppose. Maybe 51:49 ish, but it's so close to even we'll just say about even with a slight lead to Villager. Anyway,

I see ya main or second MegaMan! Do ya think ya have much insight on the Villager vs MegaMan matchup? I've fought AdaptChance's Megaman a few times and always felt somewhat pressured from far away by nonstop projectiles, closer I would be pelted with pellets, and if I wanted to approach from above I'd get his up-air tornado which can be fun to pocket, but another ones on the way. This dude just had projectiles out so quick that I didn't feel like I could defend myself properly or approach. It was a while ago, so I've probably gotten better since then, but I'm not sure... Does Villager have a disadvantage here? Some in this thread have agreed, but I haven't thought in-depth about it yet with what numbers the matchup would use or what stages to go on and etc.

I guess I feel like I'm not qualified to start the in-depth discussion just cause I was so lost during the match haha, but what do ya - and anyone else! - think deeply about this matchup? MegaMan slight advantage? Significant advantage? Villager has the advantage I haven't realized yet?

 

[Zensay]

Mhm, thanks! Yeah, around even I suppose. Maybe 51:49 ish, but it's so close to even we'll just say about even with a slight lead to Villager. Anyway,

I see ya main or second MegaMan! Do ya think ya have much insight on the Villager vs MegaMan matchup? I've fought AdaptChance's Megaman a few times and always felt somewhat pressured from far away by nonstop projectiles, closer I would be pelted with pellets, and if I wanted to approach from above I'd get his up-air tornado which can be fun to pocket, but another ones on the way. This dude just had projectiles out so quick that I didn't feel like I could defend myself properly or approach. It was a while ago, so I've probably gotten better since then, but I'm not sure... Does Villager have a disadvantage here? Some in this thread have agreed, but I haven't thought in-depth about it yet with what numbers the matchup would use or what stages to go on and etc.

I guess I feel like I'm not qualified to start the in-depth discussion just cause I was so lost during the match haha, but what do ya - and anyone else! - think deeply about this matchup? MegaMan slight advantage? Significant advantage? Villager has the advantage I haven't realized yet?

He has quickly become my secondary in the past few weeks. Just a lot of fun to play, and isn't too much a stretch from Villager's mindset for me.

I want to say there might be an advantage to Mega Man due to his power shots. They can do so much at such little cost. But unfortunately I have little to no first hand experience fighting Villager or Mega Man as one or the other so I can't speak from real experience and am probably not qualified either.

 

[JohnnyB]

I don't think we have the right tools for the job when it comes to the mu. Most of our usual advantages get nullified. To elaborate:

Timber:

Almost completely useless. You might be able to tag him with the growth, or make use of the axe, but he can literally shoot crash bombs at the tree as fast as they can hit it and the explosions hurt you. It's basically like links bombs on crack.

Pocket:

Not as bad as timber but not great either. Your better off catching metal blades the old fashioned way. Most of his projectiles aren't really worth it individually. Dair and uair are situationaly useful but difficult to put to use. Fsmash is obviously great but I find it hard to get unless megaman Is so gracious to charge it (which I think he should almost never do in this matchup).

Lloid:

Again, almost useless. Metal blades go right through it. Megaman can easily throw out more projectiles than you can lloids. It doesn't control space well and cover you. Lloids aren't doing their job here at all.

Gimping:

Not very easy against megaman. He has sonics vertical recovery. It comes out instantly and quickly pops him up high. It's not impossible to interrupt but espically if the stage is a floating platform, it can be difficult to get where you need to be quickly enough. It's easier for megaman to gimp us with a dair than it is for us to gimp him.

Aerials:

Still good, but megaman has the tools to overcome and punish those approaches. Utilt, uair and usmash are fast anti-air moves and utilt and usmash kill early, and that's not even mentioning bair, fair, and his pellets. His shieldgrab is pretty good too. Our own fair and bair at a distance are risky since megaman is better at those ranges than us. No advantage for us here either.

This isn't to say that I think it's an unwinnable matchup. We can still get in there and do what we have to, we just don't have any help getting there, unlike our opponent.

I've been told that megaman is one of the hardest characters to play. You have to be really on point and perform a lot more inputs in a shorter time frame than most characters to get less done in the end. It sounds counter intuitive to everything I said above, but I think our only real advantage is that megaman players have to put in more work to use him to his fullest. If you are near the same skill level as the megaman player, you might come out on top for that reason alone.

I'm no expert either though, just my two cents worth.

 

[Zensay]

I don't think we have the right tools for the job when it comes to the mu. Most of our usual advantages get nullified. To elaborate:

Timber:

Almost completely useless. You might be able to tag him with the growth, or make use of the axe, but he can literally shoot crash bombs at the tree as fast as they can hit it and the explosions hurt you. It's basically like links bombs on crack.

Pocket:

Not as bad as timber but not great either. Your better off catching metal blades the old fashioned way. Due to the properties of Pocket claiming the blade as yours Mega can just throw another one at you where as if you grab it he cannot toss another one until you dispose of the first. Most of his projectiles aren't really worth it individually. Dair and uair are situationaly useful but difficult to put to use. Fsmash is obviously great but I find it hard to get unless megaman Is so gracious to charge it (which I think he should almost never do in this matchup).

Lloid:

Again, almost useless. Metal blades go right through it. Megaman can easily throw out more projectiles than you can lloids. It doesn't control space well and cover you. Lloids aren't doing their job here at all.

Gimping:

Not very easy against megaman. He has sonics vertical recovery. It comes out instantly and quickly pops him up high. It's not impossible to interrupt but espically if the stage is a floating platform, it can be difficult to get where you need to be quickly enough. It's easier for megaman to gimp us with a dair than it is for us to gimp him.

Aerials:

Still good, but megaman has the tools to overcome and punish those approaches. Utilt, uair and usmash are fast anti-air moves and utilt and usmash kill early, and that's not even mentioning bair, fair, and his pellets. His shieldgrab is pretty good too. Our own fair and bair at a distance are risky since megaman is better at those ranges than us. No advantage for us here either.

This isn't to say that I think it's an unwinnable matchup. We can still get in there and do what we have to, we just don't have any help getting there, unlike our opponent.

I've been told that megaman is one of the hardest characters to play. You have to be really on point and perform a lot more inputs in a shorter time frame than most characters to get less done in the end. It sounds counter intuitive to everything I said above, but I think our only real advantage is that megaman players have to put in more work to use him to his fullest. If you are near the same skill level as the megaman player, you might come out on top for that reason alone.

I'm no expert either though, just my two cents worth.

Your post inspired me to try some things out in training mode (as best I could juggling two controllers) and I'd like to share my findings as well as expand on some of your thoughts as they are well received. None of this comes from actually playing the MU so please take it with as many grains of salt as you'd like.

Timber: It takes 6 crash bombs to destroy the tree, and like you mentioned they come fast and do damage to you if you are too close. Metal blade and Leaf shield both go through the tree no problem. Leaf shield will eat a rocket and still go through the tree. Putting the tree between yourself and Mega Man just gives him a shield to hide behind.

Pocket: 100% agreed that you should never waste pocket on a Metal blade since you can just grab it normally. If a Mega Man sees you pocket a Metal blade he will take that as an invitation to use his f-smash with out fear of it being pocketed. Actually any projectile you pocket will indicate to the Mega Man that its now safer to use an f-smash. Use this to your advantage if possible. There is enough delay on the start up that you shouldn't have too much trouble timing the pocket correctly.

I think Up+Air might be a decent projectile to grab as it lifts him straight up at a set distance and allows for some juggles. Mega Man doesn't have the best options to defend from below, dair which has too much start up, Metal blade both thrown and Z-dropped are slow and easily avoided, and Leaf shield can be poked through with turnips or other extended hit boxes. All that being said he can just Rush Coil up and away from Villager to break the juggle so it might make for a decent gamble on a 3 turnip Up+Air to seal a stock or for just the single hit/pressure.

Gimping: One more thing to remember about Rush is that he hangs around for a little bit after being summoned and anyone can jump on him during that time. This means that if you quickly spike Mega right after a Rush Coil potentially he will be saved from the gimp and now heading back towards Villager at high speeds. Turnips do stay out for a while though so if someone wants to test if you can double spike Mega Man that would be really fun to see.

I was testing Mega's Dair against Villagers balloons and the chances of him hitting both balloons is low, and hitting both while not hitting Villager is even lower due to the meteor effect. I tested his other projectiles and none of them are able to take out both balloons in one shot. There is a slight chance that two power shots placed perfectly might be able to pop them but testing that out proved to be as difficult as landing the dair. Actually I ran into a weird thing trying to pop the balloons with lemons where sometimes Villager would tank the hit like he had super armor and a balloon would not pop but the impact sound and character jostle still happened. If anyone knows more about that please do share.

Mega Man's upsmash actually doesn't really kill that early unless its fully charged. The Mega Man boards have it listed uncharged killing at 124%. Otherwise its a fantastic move with many uses against Villager. I think Mega's Fair can also be used as a defensive tool against slingshot spam as its a long lasting, large hitbox that probably clanks against the pellets much like Mario's Nair.

Branching off onto something else: I think customs will make this MU even harder for Villager as most of Villagers customs will not benefit him as much where as Mega Man's will just continue to make things easier.

 

[Sonsa]

Okay, so again, just needed some back-up that me feeling disadvantaged just wasn't cause I'm bad at the game. But I can try offering some input, fought a few Megamen, notably AdaptChance in an online tourney which is some dude that is apparently really great in his state or something.

Villager vs Megaman

The above two posts are great and you should read those first!
I agree that your tree is pretty darn useless. Megaman never has to approach you. He won't even come there like other characters trying to reflect it or destroy it. His metal blade goes right through so Megamen will be happy to shoot at you and destroy the tree from afar. But hey, you'll have your axe which is great (if ya ever get to use it...)

But your watering can could be great too at times. Megaman has that vertical recovery and fears the bowling ball, so many will try to recover high. Sometimes though, they'll recover high a lil far and aim for grabbing the edge. This is when you can use your watering can. You shouldnt worry about being hit too much, theyll have launched a crash bomb a lil while ago hoping to punish your edgeguard, what they believe to be a jump to turnips, and then theyll have to stay inactive to grab the ledge. This is a great time to use your watering can. It won't always happen, but isn't a really low chance either!
Many Megamen will want to recover high. (Fearing bowling balls cause of their predictable recovery again) Usually onto the stage sure, there you can try and beat the down-air start-up and turnips, but sometimes yeah, theyll wanna land on the edge! So - watering can!

I'd take the dude to stages like Battlefield trying to drop bowling balls but he quickly up-aired up-aired up-aired, I didn't know Megamen could make you navigate a lil maze of tornados like that, but yeah, being above Megaman might not be so great with platforms in the way...

Being mid-range gets you pellets. You can't really grab Megaman or attack with most moves at that range as your grab is too slow for another pellet comes out, and most of your melee attacks won't reach. Another incoming pellet will just stop your dash attack too. Down-tilt might reach and be fast enough sometimes! Sometimes. But because of pellets being fast and constant, you don't really wanna be at that range... If you try to start a gyroid to get past the pellets, Megaman can quickly punish with his slide, the down-tilt. This range... just aint good...

At far trying to launch gyroids and slingshots you'll get metal blades going through your gyroid start-up as well as crash bombs. While Megaman has room to breathe he can throw his metal blade down and pick it up, a metal blade thats been picked up is actually stronger for some reason. While he's holding it he can shoot more crash bombs, and he could also set up a leaf shield which will let him usually block your slingshots and if he's already thrown or Z-dropped his metal blade, leaf shield can really help him get a grab which allows for a few strong follow ups.

I really, honestly, have little to know clue where you want to be in this matchup... Do you wanna play around the ledge maybe? Play ledge games? Do you need a specific stage? Is this one of the few times we'd prefer FD and Omega stages?

Another neat trick to take note of, some Megaman will throw a metal blade on the ground, wait for people to go pick it up, and punish with a shoryuken (Mega upper - aka up-tilt) to kill. Its a Metal Blade Bait. Don't fall for it! Metal Blade isn't that worth it either. I coulda sworn holding the metal blade or pocketing it acted the same as pocketing Pac-Man's fruit before a patch, but maybe not... Anyway, now it really isn't worth pocketing one.

What's interesting about this matchup...is you can pocket almost all Megaman's moveset...but it isn't really helpful! You can pocket a lot of Duck Hunt and Pac-Man's (other matchups I really wanna get around to) moves, but they can't pressure you like Megaman. With Megaman, when you pocket one thing that may come in handy, it feels like another three projectiles are on the way! All I think is worth pocketing is Megaman's Up-Air, Foward-Smash of course, though good Megamen are aware you want this and will just kill other ways (back-air, down-air, up-air, up-tilt, up-smash, down-smash - he's got plenty of options)

What else is useful to pocket... Eh... I wanna say crash bomb can come in handy sometime, but the large majority of the time, you pocket metal blade you get hit with crash bomb. You try pocketing crash bomb you get a metal blade. MegaMan far away are happy to pressure you with metal blade crash bomb metal blade crash bomb, to try and force you to approach, cause as we've covered, approaching from above isnt so great and getting mid-range is miserable.

The only time you're having a good time is when Megaman is recovering to the stage. There you can bowling ball, watering can, or try and gimp with some pocketed leaf shield or slingshots and turnips. A thrown leaf shield can be good to pocket, however rare. Just covers a large sorta area. But even then, Mega can recover high onto the stage most times. You could try and punish with an up-air turnip, but usually so what? He's still back on the stage...alive.

This matchup... is even worse than Shiek... Megaman has such pressure, I don't even know where you wanna be in this matchup, not like you can approach diagonally, even if you could Metal Blade goes everywhere. I really think Megaman shuts you down in a lot of ways and you should try using another character. I might be over-dramatic... but I really think this matchup is totally 35:65.

I am clueless when in this matchup. Everywhere I go Megaman has an answer. Whatever I do Megaman has something faster. I'd love to grab him, but uh...Villager grab, heheh... I'm sorry I can't help ya here. I dont even know what stage to go to, I guess FD? Omega Stages with walls, maybe ones you cant wall jump on like Kalos League could help narrow Megaman's recovery options a bit. Lylat might be good cause of tricky ledges, but... I dunno, sorry, good luck.

 

[Asdioh]

hey guys we're talking about villager on the kirby boards!
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...scussing-villager.383428/page-4#post-18673432

 

[Antonykun]

Errr IDK about Kirby

 

[AnchorTea]

Ok guys. We all know that ROB has a tiny bit of disadvantage when it comes to Villager.

But what about a campy/defensive ROB? Especially getting back on stage.

 

[Antonykun]

If they camp camp right back. Then slowly work your way into getting close. Also when recovering try to not hug the stage as thats just begging to be spiked.

 

[AnchorTea]

If they camp camp right back. Then slowly work your way into getting close. Also when recovering try to not hug the stage as thats just begging to be spiked.

When you grab the ledge though, they can dair.

 

[Antonykun]

When you grab the ledge though, they can dair.

Yes you have one frame of non invincibility when you grab the ledge. Better yet is to not go offstage unless you're gimping him.

 

[AnchorTea]

Yes you have one frame of non invincibility when you grab the ledge. Better yet is to not go offstage unless you're gimping him.

What if he launches you and you have to get back on stage?

 

[Antonykun]

What if he launches you and you have to get back on stage?

In theory he shouldn't knock you off that easily because Villager out zones him and kidnaps his Gyro. Uhh you can try scrooging under the stage. If its like Omega Wily's Castle then DI towards the wall and tech it.

 

[AnchorTea]

In theory he shouldn't knock you off that easily because Villager out zones him and kidnaps his Gyro. Uhh you can try scrooging under the stage. If its like Omega Wily's Castle then DI towards the wall and tech it.

Tech?

 

[Sonsa]

Oh hey, I fight a good ROB and a few good Kirbys! Hope I can help!

Villager vs Kirby
Okay! ...where to start... I guess with what you can pocket. Kirby doesn't have a lot of projectiles, but you can pocket the... wind or whatever it is that comes out of Kirby's sword after his up-b. It's not really that worth it, but good to know.

Speaking of recoveries, both are pretty great! Villager's is faster, both his balloons and riding gyroid, but his riding gyroid leaves him a bit vulnerable at times, even though you can slow it down and do mindgames, and Balloons have no hitbox (disregarding customs) And Kirby can use attacks in the middle of his jumps, while his up-b has a few hitbox's. Only thing is it's rather linear, so pretty easily punished a well timed bowling ball.

It's rather tricky but if you can execute a footstool then Kirby will lose all his jumps and have to up-b, which you could punish with a turnip spike or just a turnip gimp. After that Kirby may have a tough time getting to the ledge as all he can do is go straight up and down pretty much, if you can master a footstool punish then killing Kirby could be pretty easy. However, it isn't easy to get that footstool, so don't be so relieved.

Whereas if Villager is off stage and trying to recover with balloons, I think Kirby may be able to pop his balloons with a back-air, jump, back-air, jump back to the stage with good name. Or maybe a well sniped forward air? Kirby can also try a down-b kill if your on a walled stage and being to predictable and vertical with your recovery.

Basically, both recoveries are pretty great and you need to be pretty on point to finish each other off. Both have spikes that need some luck, Villager's more random but rewarding, and both can gimp with good enough aim.

As for killing on-stage, both have some hard hits. Kirby has a better grab that can be converted into pretty good combos, sometimes ending with a smash. Be wary of foward throw to around four up-airs to a back-air. Or a down-air to a grab or smash. Try to break these combos with nair or good DI and use of 2nd jump.

You should also beware Kirby's down-b. It's strong and can catch you when you try to kill with an up-air. It's pretty tempting knowing Kirby is a light character, but you have to stay away from directly under him. At least his rock move is very linear and has some significant start-up and end-lag. Just be patient.

You should try and rack up damage with gyroids, slingshots, well placed tilts (all come in handy quite often) Short hop down-air is also a great approach as always, when Kirby doesnt wanna jump - maybe cause of a gyroid ya launched. Slingshot combos can still work, but due to Kirby's small size, not as often as it may work on other characters. However quick follow ups like down-tilt to up-air or down-air to forward-tilt are still pretty great. Spacing out usually works, but be careful because Kirby does have the ability to jump over your walls.

I rarely see Kirby use his hammer, especially in this matchup, there's no time when Villager is constantly keeping his space and pressuring with slingshots.

The tree can come in handy, the axe too, the watering can however is usually useless. When Kirby recovers with his up-b from below the ledge, the watering can probably wont have an effect. When Kirby uses it above the ledge his sword will always hit Villager's head before the watering can's droplets hit Kirby.

Kirby's copy ability can be very useful, pocketing much of Villager's moveset. However, Villager will now be able to pocket back some of his own moveset - and sucking Villager in can be quite difficult with the startup and endlag. Especially when Villager wants to be quick and jumpy up close, and keep his space with a gyroid gaining stage control beyond mid-range. But! If Villager gets caught, Kirby gets a much more useful neutral-special! He can steal a gyroid and approach noticeably easier by covering his approach with it.

So... Both are good in the air, both are pretty good off-stage with Villager having a bit of an advantage, and both are good on stage with Kirby having a liiil bit of an advantage. You both don't need to be that risky, but your combos and hits should be on point. Solid aim and timing and you should be rewarded nicely. One or the other might have a slight advantage, but unless I'm completely forgetting something I think this matchup is pretty even. 50:50!

Stages Villager would prefer: Lylat, Battlefield, maybe Kongo Jungle
Stages Kirby would prefer: Probably Wuhu, Skyloft, Halberd

And now the other fun matchup!

Villager vs R.O.B.
I usually start with what you can pocket so why stop now? You can pocket a lazer, which is fine, but you really wanna pocket the Gyro, cause as most of us know, once you get this Rob cant use it. It's really easy to get too as Rob must spawn one by launching it away from him, usually pretty far. Rob's will want to use this as its pretty important for their camp game, but only when they think they can catch your startuplag or endlag, usually when you plant a sapling. Just shield, and it's yours. Even if it hits you, most ROBs will pick it up and throw it again or the gyroid might be positioned for you to take damage if you approach ROB. Basically its really easy to get this thing and it gives you a good advantage!

Rob will usually only have lazers to camp with and those need time to charge so now Rob kinda has to go in and approach. He can use his side-b to reflect projectiles, but it isnt really that helpful unless used up close - catching you. Used form afar, Villagers shouldnt use gyroid and just stand there. Villager will usually gyroid and jump over for a follow-up which totally works when Rob uses his side-b. You may also short hop gyroid and approach on the ground. If Rob uses the spin at this point I recommend shield and then punish when the move ends. Rob's side-b has very significant endlag. I wouldnt really use the tree unless Robs already in hitstun or youre chopping from a platform above so you have time to get outta there to avoid a reflected tree.

So with his side-b and down-b rendered a lil useless what else can Rob do? He can lazer with good timing! It can hit you during your gyroid start-up and even through trees. Its pretty good, so yknow, be mindful of it. Just try and shield, its startup makes it rather predictable, so you can usually shield in time if they just throw it out to get some damage.

Rob has some nice follow ups like down-throw to up-air or a down-tilt to grab. You'll want to just avoid approaches mostly with slingshots and well placed turnips. Rob is pretty big so it's kinda easy to land hits on him. Staying aerial is usually good, but all your tilts are great against him too. Be wary of Rob's dash attack though, its quick and can get you in the position to receive a follow up.

Now for Rob's up-b. It's not so great against Villager. Rob cant shield during this, he can only attack. All his aerials however are close range. Just do slingshots, good knockback and gimp potential. Rob's up-b also has limited fuel so if you keep him off-stage enough and keep pushing him he'll run out and die. You can attempt to juggle with up-air turnips, Rob's spike has noticeable start-up, but you really dont have to risk it usually. To cover themselves best Rob's will want to use neutral-aerial when they feel threatened after an up-b. So yeah - slingshot.

Watering can, axe, and tree all have their uses at times.

Rob has some good range and can get some follow-ups and combos set up, but it is pretty challenging. As Villager, pocket that gyro, keep your space while approaching, and feel free to push Rob around and off the stage. Remember to refresh your pocket timer and punish Rob's choices that sometimes he must make. As usual, I'm open to discussion but as of now I'm rather sure this matchup is 65:35 in Villager's favor.

Stages Villager might prefer: Lylat, Battlefield, T&C, I think maybe Duck Hunt
Stages Rob may prefer: Halberd, maaaybe Kongo Jungle, maybe Smashville, FD and Omega stages maybe

 

[cree318]

Totally agree with the ROB and Kirby MU. Just as a side note on ROB; although the gyro should be your go to thing to pocket, IIRC a pocketed fully charged laser can kill ROB at really early percents.

 

[Sonsa]

Whoops, I've been informed that footstool jumping doesnt remove all your jumps, it will cause a set amount of tumble, but Kirby can still jump so not as useful as I thought. Sorry!

Doesnt really change my thoughts on the matchup though, still even, footstooling is tricky to land anyway, I usually use slingshots and turnips or prepare a bowling ball if Ive kept Kirby in the air long enough to use most of his jumps.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Mega Man main reporting in!
Villager is a matchup that Mega Man really does well in due to being able to out wall Villager. Like said above, Mega Man will NEVER shoot a fsmash at you unless there is something else in your pocket. Pocket won't deprive him of his Metal Blade either (for some reason).

He just seems to have an answer for every defensive option Villager can toss out. Bowling Balls and Watering Cans can be an issue though.

 

[Antonykun]

Mega Man main reporting in!
Villager is a matchup that Mega Man really does well in due to being able to out wall Villager. Like said above, Mega Man will NEVER shoot a fsmash at you unless there is something else in your pocket. Pocket won't deprive him of his Metal Blade either (for some reason).

He just seems to have an answer for every defensive option Villager can toss out. Bowling Balls and Watering Cans can be an issue though.

Hmmm So what you're saying is a well timed (Super) Watering Can will gimp MM?

 

[PigglyJuff]

Hmmm So what you're saying is a well timed (Super) Watering Can will gimp MM?

Finally! Some sort of reason to use the Super Timber!

 

[Antonykun]

Finally! Some sort of reason to use the Super Timber!

not like counter timber is going to help much anyways

 

[CopShowGuy]

Hmmm So what you're saying is a well timed (Super) Watering Can will gimp MM?

About as well as anyone else, I guess. I'm not too familiar with the move but if you can get in between Mega Man and the ledge without getting hit, it would probably work.

 

[Sonsa]

Fought a good Link from around here a few hours ago, and that there's a fun matchup. I hope I'm not being too annoying with all these write-ups, I just enjoy em quite a bit. Sorry if this bothers anyone!

Villager vs Link

There are projectiles flying everywhere! You can pocket boomerangs, arrows, and bombs, all pretty useful! Boomerang will be out often to try and control space, however it can be destroyed with a slingshot if you don't want to pocket it. Arrows will usually only be used when you are quite far and Links are hoping to keep you away from the ledge, or kill at high percents. Bombs will and should be used a lot, they help Link a lot, one slingshot won't destroy it, bombs are durable and have decent damage and knockback, but lucky for us Villagers, pulling a bomb out has pretty noticeable start-up.

A neat bomb technique with Link you should take note of is Link can sorta spawn one, drop it near him, and spawn another, he just sorta farms these bombs. They'll usually do this while you're growing a tree or something, but this little strategy lets him quickly throw two bombs your way. Bombs are great for getting past your slingshots and punishing gyroid start-up, so be careful!

I think you want to be aggressively pressuring Link. Go in a bit more, don't let him breathe with his projectiles, ya know? He has some hard-hitting moves that can be very scary, but he also has noticeable start-up for much of these moves that Villager can out-speed. Link's jab can be good of he connects it all, it'll push you a little far. But it's not like Villager can't cover his approaches and get in.

I thought Link's hylian shield would be more of a problem, but it really didnt do much good. I guess most slingshots are aimed for Link's head anyway. I might need to fight more Links, maybe my opponent just didnt utilize this tool as much as he should of. I guess Link's infinite jab is something else to worry about! I won't be considering it too much though, as I haven't really seen it been used competitively. Except by me in For Glory. But the execution needs to be good, so I dunno. Consider this as much as you consider Villager's "One-Chop Trick".

When recovering back to the stage as Villager, Link might be able to shoot an arrow at one of your balloons, and he does have a spike now, but due to Link's heavy weight, most players won't want to take huge risks and go deep for the kill. Especially if you cover your recovery with a gyroid.

Now when Link is off stage, you can go pretty deep. Link's weight make him a lil helpless. He doesnt want to attack unless it's up-b cause the start and endlag of his aerials could end up killing him, and pushing him further with slingshots and turnips is a bit easy. Also if Link's try to tether recovery, though they wont if youre on stage, usually, a bowling ball will punish really well. Especially walled stages like Duck Hunt. I wouldnt recommend using watering can against Link's up-b. Sure, if he's already helpless take that stock, but I think Link's up-b would hit you before any droplets effect him, it's at a pretty good angle for that

Link has good range with his sword, but his startup lag is too vulnerable to an aggressive Villager. Villager can act as a Jigglypuff in the sense that they won't leave you alone, but Villager even does this at a safe distance. Link can do work though! Bombs are pretty necessary to get through Villager's walls. Both grabs aren't that great, but Link's aerial hookshot is a good move that could give aggressive Villagers some trouble. Link's throws also aren't superb, they're decentish, but Villager's back-throw can kill at high percents, so they balance out like that I guess!

I think I wanna say this matchup is... without being too precise, very close to 60:40, Villager doesn't really shut anything down for Link, he can still use any of his projectiles after any of them are pocketed, but because Villager can have a much quicker pace and kill with a deadly off-stage game...kinda easy, I'd say he has a solid advantage with better tools.

Stages Villager should prefer: Battlefield, Lylat, Kongo Jungle, Town & City maybe
Stages Link probably prefers: FD&Omegas(without walls), Smashville

 

[Volya]

One of the greatest counter pick stage for villager against Link is any FD with vertical walls and Duck Hunt.
Villager can punish Link's up b VERY easily on theses stages (more than on BF for example) and he can ledge trump the tether recovery easily since it's a "slow" action.

I still agree about the 60:40 mu for Vil.

 

[Sonsa]

One of the greatest counter pick stage for villager against Link is any FD with vertical walls and Duck Hunt.
Villager can punish Link's up b VERY easily on theses stages (more than on BF for example) and he can ledge trump the tether recovery easily since it's a "slow" action.

I still agree about the 60:40 mu for Vil.

Thanks for the input! I'm a little paranoid about Duck Hunt because the ducks get in the way of slingshots and such, but you can surprise Link with a bowling ball from up the tree or bush. It probably is an advantaged stage, but I guess I'd just go Omega Onett or something. You don't kill from the sides as quickly, but with Villager's off-stage game being quite amazing at pushing Link around I think it's no huge loss.

Now I understand you wanted to discuss Diddy more! I discussed Diddy a few pages back, but without much matchup experience I thought Villager had a noticeable advantage. Now I think it's even 50:50, because Diddy's up-b is not as easy to gimp as I made it out to be. I mean, yes, Villager has much more helpful tools than most characters, but Diddy's up-b can go in a variety of angles and it's really quick. AND its got a hitbox. But! You can kill early if you just nudge him off the stage, Diddy still needs to charge it up. It's just at high percents where Diddy flies far away that it's harder to finish him off...

Otherwise, pocketing the banana makes him easier to deal with and I would definitely not recommend Duck Hunt or Castle Siege... I was doing so well until we went there, those were good counter-picks. Ducks got in the way of my projectiles and Diddy just ran from me by monkey flipping back and forth from those top two flag things in CS's 2nd transformation.

Well what do you think? Do either have a slight advantage? I don't think this is far from even, but I cant be too sure I suppose.

 

[JohnnyB]

I sometimes have trouble getting in there on link. I find it's better to zone him out for a bit and wait for him to get a little hungry for those up close hits. Our zoning seems to cancel his out and get through more than his can, so I feel we have a bit of an advantage in that position. Once he gets a little agro and reckless I like to let him have it and repeat the process again.

In any case I really like the matchup. I always have fun playing link!

 

[Sonsa]

I sometimes have trouble getting in there on link. I find it's better to zone him out for a bit and wait for him to get a little hungry for those up close hits. Our zoning seems to cancel his out and get through more than his can, so I feel we have a bit of an advantage in that position. Once he gets a little agro and reckless I like to let him have it and repeat the process again.

In any case I really like the matchup. I always have fun playing link!

Oh, I agree! The boomerang controls some space but Villager can dodge or get rid of it pretty easy with a pocket or slingshot. However, bombs are the best tool Link has to disrupt our zoning. I'd recommend going in when Link gets desperate and throws something out with endlag, but also when Link is pulling out a bomb as the start up lag is quite significant! Give it a shot, I think you'll have even more fun!

 

[Volya]

I think Diddy have the matchup over Villager. like i said in the other thread, i played with a lot of top french player playing ddk and i tried different playstyle to see how Villager can manage to win against the monkey.
Thing is, villager is bad against fast character. Even if you keep ddk's banana with villager's pocket, he's still able to reach you easily with his side b or with correctly timed dash>perfectshield on missile >something.

Pocketting the rocket isn't a thing, good ddk player are not dumb and they'll use their up b only when they're safe enough.

imo the MU is way more something around ~35/65 for ddk than 50:50
If someone play ddk against me, i'll pick Ness instead of Villager for sure.

I'll do a quick list of my MU thought of all "important" character this week if you guys are interested.

 

[Sonsa]

I think Diddy have the matchup over Villager. like i said in the other thread, i played with a lot of top french player playing ddk and i tried different playstyle to see how Villager can manage to win against the monkey.
Thing is, villager is bad against fast character. Even if you keep ddk's banana with villager's pocket, he's still able to reach you easily with his side b or with correctly timed dash>perfectshield on missile >something.

Pocketting the rocket isn't a thing, good ddk player are not dumb and they'll use their up b only when they're safe enough.

imo the MU is way more something around ~35/65 for ddk than 50:50
If someone play ddk against me, i'll pick Ness instead of Villager for sure.

I'll do a quick list of my MU thought of all "important" character this week if you guys are interested.

Alright, I trust you've got matchup experience, but I really don't think Diddy shuts down any of Villagers options like 35:65~ suggests. Villager actually shuts down Diddy's banana set-ups, while Diddy just sort of makes landing more uncomfortable. Sonic is fast but Villager can hold his own. Falcon and Mac are fast too but I think Villager has advantages there too.

Diddy Kong can absolutely reach you, he can stay on you like a Jigglypuff at times, but he has to get through slingshots and gyroids as well as long-lasting disjointed hitbox turnips, those lovely turnips! And of course Nair can help you get some space plenty of times.
Side-B has rather quick start-up, but it is noticeable enough to jump out of the way and punish its significant endlag with turnips. I'm not sure what you mean with the dash...you mean he perfect shields the gyroid, dash attacks, and follow ups with something? It's possible, but I really don't think you should use your gyroid that close, if used at the right range just for stage control, then you have ample time to do whatever else. Up close you should be trying to push Diddy away with tilts, turnips, or catch him with a down-smash.

You can't pocket the rocket-barrel pack while he's wearing it, sure, but if you hit him you can pocket it as it flies off and potentially kills you. And yeah, good Diddy players aren't dumb and definitely don't want to get gimped, but at times they're forced to use their up-b! They can't side-b to the stage when diagonal or just below the ledge and out of jumps. That's when you capitalize. I killed that good Diddy player at 40% by nudging him off the stage (sorry - at college now, I'll check the replay and be more specific Friday haha sorry!) getting him right under T&C's ledge having to use up-b and whamo, right when he pulled it out - turnip spike!
It's only at higher percents where they fly too far where it's much harder to get the gimp/kill. But if you're fast enough I do believe a slingshot aimed at an approaching Diddy will knock him off, and you can go for a gimp after he tumbles for a set amount and has to try again. Or maybe you could try to punish it's landing lag. It is tricky, but I think Villager has the tools. Maybe if Diddy is far off stage and about to come in with a fully charged up-b, lay down a gyroid to cover a lot of landing spots to give you another shot at gimping him.

I still think this matchup is around 50:50, nothing beyond 45:55 or 55:45. Oh, and more input is always interesting!

 

[cree318]

This is just going off previous tournament experiences I've had so take this with a grain of salt:

I've played some good Diddy players at tourneys and I'd say it's not a terrible MU but still in Diddy's favor (maybe something around 45:55 ~ 40:60).
Diddy's ability to easily keep pressure on Villy makes it hard for us to keep some space between them, making zoning hard. Diddy does have problems when you're able to pocket a banana, but he's not helpless without them. His monkey flip (side b) is great for getting up close and tacking on some extra damage. And his Fsmash makes a great finisher due to its range and disjointed hitbox. I seem to always have a problem with his popgun, the peanut moves just slow enough though the air to limit my approaches.
Although Villy has an easy time dealing with him once off stage, I feel like getting him to that point can be difficult. If he is not letting you zone effectively with the usual fair/bair or Lloid, try to utilize Villager's close up zoning tools like his ftilt or retreating nairs. The Lloid can be used to help curb Diddy's monkey flip and other approaches. I'm also always looking to bait Diddy's to monkey flip over an already watered sapling, which is a great way to get in some extra damage and maybe even a KO.