Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[Sonsa]

cough cough

I main Marth (right alongside Villager and Sheik) and I can use Lucina in friendlies (cuz of the character similarity)

XP Thats why I was debating it, because I know from experience that its PAINFUL to deal with Villagers as Marth and lucina, haha. I'd say 55:45 and 60:40 are good for Marth and Lucina, respectively.

@ Antonykun I say both, haha

Oh? Oh yeah, look at that, ya like him in Brawl and PM! Well okay, sorry. I guess I'm willing to agree to that. No matter how small the advantage is we'll just round up to 55:45 as that's what that implies, a slight advantage.

Any other past matchups anyone else wants to discuss and clear up? I wanna make sure what we've discussed so far can be utilized for a chart on the front page when we get one.
Changes from my personal chart:
vs Marth 55:45
vs Lucina 60:40
vs Bowser Jr. 65:35
vs Sonic Mayyybe even or maybe 45:55, what do the rest of y'all think?
vs Mario 55:45 or is it even or disadvantaged? Weigh in please!

The more we discuss the more we learn and the better results we agree upon!

 

[Darklink401]

Oh? Oh yeah, look at that, ya like him in Brawl and PM! Well okay, sorry. I guess I'm willing to agree to that. No matter how small the advantage is we'll just round up to 55:45 as that's what that implies, a slight advantage.

Any other past matchups anyone else wants to discuss and clear up? I wanna make sure what we've discussed so far can be utilized for a chart on the front page when we get one.
Changes from my personal chart:
vs Marth 55:45
vs Lucina 60:40
vs Bowser Jr. 65:35
vs Sonic Mayyybe even or maybe 45:55, what do the rest of y'all think?
vs Mario 55:45 or is it even or disadvantaged? Weigh in please!

The more we discuss the more we learn and the better results we agree upon!

haha, you don't have to be sorry, Sonsa xD

Also isn't Sonic one of our worst matchups? xD

I'd put him at like 35:65, haha. Maybe 40-60


I think we do have a slight advantage against Mario, simply due to the fact he can be easily gimped. We can even trade his up B with our nair, and come out on top xD

 

[Antonykun]

Oh? Oh yeah, look at that, ya like him in Brawl and PM! Well okay, sorry. I guess I'm willing to agree to that. No matter how small the advantage is we'll just round up to 55:45 as that's what that implies, a slight advantage.

Any other past matchups anyone else wants to discuss and clear up? I wanna make sure what we've discussed so far can be utilized for a chart on the front page when we get one.
Changes from my personal chart:
vs Marth 55:45
vs Lucina 60:40
vs Bowser Jr. 65:35
vs Sonic Mayyybe even or maybe 45:55, what do the rest of y'all think?
vs Mario 55:45 or is it even or disadvantaged? Weigh in please!

The more we discuss the more we learn and the better results we agree upon!

I still think that Sonic is 65:35 Sanic favor just because we cannot kill him as early as he can kill us plus his gazillion zone-breakers.

 

[Sonsa]

haha, you don't have to be sorry, Sonsa xD

Also isn't Sonic one of our worst matchups? xD

I'd put him at like 35:65, haha. Maybe 40-60

I think we do have a slight advantage against Mario, simply due to the fact he can be easily gimped. We can even trade his up B with our nair, and come out on top xD

Okay, sor- er. Okay! XD

No way! Why does everyone keep saying that? Sure he's fast - he's the fastest, but at least before he can run the clock he has to approach and bring his hurtbox to ya! He has fine endlag, just stay near the edge, and off stage you can either punish a laggy homing attack recovery attempt, or turnip and slingshot his predictable up-b. I also recommend walled stages he cant jump off of like Omega Kalos to remove some options and make that - and bowling ball kills easier. Also avoid stages like Smashville or T&C, but instead opt for Battlefield or Lylat.

Player-1 went to a tourney, showed us some nice matches he had with a good Sonic, and also agreed it was even. There's no way its 35:65, Sonic doesnt shut down any of our option or approaches, we just havta be more careful, responsive, and quick-thinking!

I still think it's even. I've been timed out by one, it sucks, but I could've played nearer to the ledge and I think Smashville having lots of space on one side a lot helped Sonic a bunch.

Why would you think it's that bad, 40:60? Spin-dash isn't as unstoppable as we thought. I dunno... Maybe I'm not seeing something clearly. He's got speed and combos, just like Falcon, but that's about it over us I think. What can he even do to edgeguard? Homing attack, forward air? Not ganna hit us. Back-air could be trouble, but it's got that start-up, I think we can usually make it back with balloons or be tricky enough to avoid em.

His running the clock game is strong, you need to anticipate it. But I say - get in the air, near the ledge, and wait for some endlag. Then turnip, slingshot, gyroid, and make a wall. Here I recommend being super defensive and rack up damage. Only go in when he's got that endlag or whipped out spindash. You can jab that, gyroid to stop it, or shield and punish when it ends.

And with Mario, yeah, agreed.

 

[Darklink401]

Okay, sor- er. Okay! XD

No way! Why does everyone keep saying that? Sure he's fast - he's the fastest, but at least before he can run the clock he has to approach and bring his hurtbox to ya! He has fine endlag, just stay near the edge, and off stage you can either punish a laggy homing attack recovery attempt, or turnip and slingshot his predictable up-b. I also recommend walled stages he cant jump off of like Omega Kalos to remove some options and make that - and bowling ball kills easier. Also avoid stages like Smashville or T&C, but instead opt for Battlefield or Lylat.
Player-1 went to a tourney, showed us some nice matches he had with a good Sonic, and also agreed it was even. There's no way its 35:65, Sonic doesnt shut down any of our option or approaches, we just havta be more careful, responsive, and quick-thinking!
I still think it's even. I've been timed out by one, it sucks, but I could've played nearer to the ledge and I think Smashville having lots of space on one side a lot helped Sonic a bunch.
Why would you think it's that bad, 40:60? Spin-dash isn't as unstoppable as we thought. I dunno... Maybe I'm not seeing something clearly. He's got speed and combos, just like Falcon, but that's about it over us I think. What can he even do to edgeguard? Homing attack, forward air? Not ganna hit us! Back-air could be trouble, but it's got that start-up, I think we can usually make it back with balloons or be tricky enough to avoid em. His running the clock game is strong, you need to anticipate it. But I say - get in the air, near the ledge, and wait for some endlag. Then turnip, slingshot, gyroid, and make a wall. Here I recommend being super defensive and rack up damage. Only go in when he's got that endlag or whipped out spindash. You can jab that, gyroid to stop it, or shield and punish when it ends.
And with Mario, yeah, agreed!

Actually.

I forgot you can just jab really fast to stop spindash, haha. So with that being said, I think the MU might be an even 50:50

 

[Antonykun]

Legit question, How are you going to kill Sonic?

 

[Sonsa]

Actually.
I forgot you can just jab really fast to stop spindash, haha. So with that being said, I think the MU might be an even 50:50

That makes all the difference, huh? XD

Legit question, How are you going to kill Sonic?

Alright, well first ya gatta rack up some damage with gyroids, slingshots, and punishes like down-air turnips, jab, or something to answer for his most common approach: spindash. Sonic's other good approaches are dash attack (lots of endlag - only dangerous against our gyroid startup) and run in and grab which is somewhat risky.

Then, he has to approach. He may want to bypass our projectiles with a homing attack. Nair or up-air this. He may want to just jump over it, slingshot, our aerial approaches are better that most of his.

You should stay near the ledge, hope to push him off, and go for the gimp. You may even get lucky with a turnip spike. All Sonic really has besides his up-b is homing attack - lots of start and endlag. Nair is also a good tool. You also really don't need to fear up-b at all since it has no rising hit-box. Totally go and gimp him. Bowling ball and watering can are also nice options.

Now, on-stage, he has lots of damage, but lets say he's up a stock. How do you pin him down and get the kill? It won't be easy. I'll just say we're on smashville cause that's where we were when he timed me out. I'd recommend covering the ground with a gyroid and using slingshot. He's on the floating platform which is rather far from the stage. When it starts floating back he rolls until it gets to the other side and waits on the upper platform some more. But Sonic definitely can't use his speed in the air as much as he can grounded. So gyroid is ganna be quite important. Also plant a tree if he's just ganna stand there - or even just a sapling. Slingshot as much as you can, have good aim, read dodges and landings. Hopefully you can push him off the stage and go for the gimp.

It's a challenge, but Villager totally has the tools to do it. Sanic's got speed. But we have stage control usually. He's ganna be quickly dealing with our active hitboxes if he wants to run so bad. The only reason we have trouble throwing that stuff out is cause he's supposed to be pressuring us.

 

[Darklink401]

That makes all the difference, huh? XD

Alright, well first ya gatta rack up some damage with gyroids, slingshots, and punishes like down-air turnips, jab, or something to answer for his most common approach: spindash. Sonic's other good approaches are dash attack (lots of endlag - only dangerous against our gyroid startup) and run in and grab which is somewhat risky.

Then, he has to approach. He may want to bypass our projectiles with a homing attack. Nair or up-air this. He may want to just jump over it, slingshot, our aerial approaches are better that most of his.

You should stay near the ledge, hope to push him off, and go for the gimp. You may even get lucky with a turnip spike. All Sonic really has besides his up-b is homing attack - lots of start and endlag. Nair is also a good tool. You also really don't need to fear up-b at all since it has no rising hit-box. Totally go and gimp him. Bowling ball and watering can are also nice options.

Now, on-stage, he has lots of damage, but lets say he's up a stock. How do you pin him down and get the kill? It won't be easy. I'll just say we're on smashville cause that's where we were when he timed me out. I'd recommend covering the ground with a gyroid and using slingshot. He's on the floating platform which is rather far from the stage. When it starts floating back he rolls until it gets to the other side and waits on the upper platform some more. But Sonic definitely can't use his speed in the air as much as he can grounded. So gyroid is ganna be quite important. Also plant a tree if he's just ganna stand there - or even just a sapling. Slingshot as much as you can, have good aim, read dodges and landings. Hopefully you can push him off the stage and go for the gimp.

It's a challenge, but Villager totally has the tools to do it. Sanic's got speed. But we have stage control usually. He's ganna be quickly dealing with our active hitboxes if he wants to run so bad. The only reason we have trouble throwing that stuff out is cause he's supposed to be pressuring us.

haha, I love how you turn a single question of how to kill him into an explanation about the steps on how to rack up damage, as well as actually just fighting the MU <3

XD its lovely info.


I'd just say dsmash to usmash after a whiffed grab~ XDD

 

[Sonsa]

haha, I love how you turn a single question of how to kill him into an explanation about the steps on how to rack up damage, as well as actually just fighting the MU <3
XD its lovely info.
I'd just say dsmash to usmash after a whiffed grab~ XDD

Sorry, guess I'm not very concise! But yeah I just wanna be as clear as I can. Down-smash to up-smash or even bowling ball if you wanna play off-stage or he has enough damage anyway are other great options!

Most notable moves to punish due to their endlag: Sonic's dash attack, down-air attack, homing attack, landed foward-air attack, down-smash, up-tilt, and a spindash that ends on the ground. Of course players will try not to just throw these out too close, but just good to know for when you have the opportunity!

 

[Darklink401]

Sorry, guess I'm not very concise! But yeah I just wanna be as clear as I can. Down-smash to up-smash or even bowling ball if you wanna play off-stage or he has enough damage anyway are other great options!

Most notable moves to punish due to their endlag: Sonic's dash attack, down-air attack, homing attack, landed foward-air attack, down-smash, up-tilt, and a spindash that ends on the ground. Of course players will try not to just throw these out too close, but just good to know for when you have the opportunity!

Nono, its fine xD It was just an interesting personality trait I noticed. It's always good expand on what you say, for the most part.

you gotta be careful with that dair tho, because if he does it too high, he'll have no endlag xD

 

[Sonsa]

Nono, its fine xD It was just an interesting personality trait I noticed. It's always good expand on what you say, for the most part.

you gotta be careful with that dair tho, because if he does it too high, he'll have no endlag xD

Oh alright!

Oh, well that's true, I guess if you're juggling him in the air or something. Dair is actually a good tool for Sonic to get back to the ground where he can take advantage of his speed more. I'd try floating towards the ledge, or even beyond to set-up a gyroid as you get back on. He may mess up and try to edgeguard you which you can turn the tables with and counter-edgeguard with turnips, nair, or more.

I guess I was just thinking of a Sonic that hasn't been juggled too high, might go for this as a combo breaker instead of an air dodge to get to the ground. If you can read this though you can punish. When else will Sonic use down-air? Some use it to spike kill, so keep that in mind, but I wouldnt worry about it too much. Some might use it after ending a spin-dash in the air for less lag on that move if you're close. Otherwise, this move isn't used too often, but keep in mind when it's thrown out you can catch it with a dash attack or something.

 

[Darklink401]

Sonics like to dair when they up B. Thats the biggest use for it, I think. Since after a while it will have no landing lag xD

 

[Sonsa]

Sonics like to dair when they up B. Thats the biggest use for it, I think. Since after a while it will have no landing lag xD

I know a fun trick is to jump real high, up-b, and down-air so that when it ends you can land real fast with an aerial like nair. When Sonic does this you can just sorta...avoid him. He can't change his direction after an up-b, so going behind him should be fine. If he doesnt wanna dair yet and keeps following you, just keep going, go off the ledge. He won't be dumb enough to kill himself, but now he has to do a down-air or something and with all the altitude he lost you're ganna be able to punish by jumping back on with a back-air. However, most Sonic wont do that. So again, just avoid it. Go pocket the spring if you want, it's surprisingly great for stage spikes.

 

[Darklink401]

I know a fun trick is to jump real high, up-b, and down-air so that when it ends you can land real fast with an aerial like nair. When Sonic does this you can just sorta...avoid him. He can't change his direction after an up-b, so going behind him should be fine. If he doesnt wanna dair yet and keeps following you, just keep going, go off the ledge. He won't be dumb enough to kill himself, but now he has to do a down-air or something and with all the altitude he lost you're ganna be able to punish by jumping back on with a back-air. However, most Sonic wont do that. So again, just avoid it. Go pocket the spring if you want, it's surprisingly great for stage spikes.

pocketing spring sounds interesting...

Wouldnt it be so OP if, if you had the pocket frames active, as Megaman or Sonic tried to up B, you stole their spring and they DIDNT jump up, but still went into special fall? XD

 

[Sonsa]

pocketing spring sounds interesting...

Wouldnt it be so OP if, if you had the pocket frames active, as Megaman or Sonic tried to up B, you stole their spring and they DIDNT jump up, but still went into special fall? XD

Yeah, Sonic doesnt have a reflect or anything so what else are ya ganna pocket? Throwing it a lil over the ledge and then also throwing a bowling ball right over the ledge is quite powerful too if youre fast enough.

And yeah, that'd be super OP lol. Poor Ness already has to deal with that kinda! Pac-Man too if he needs a 2nd jump on the trampoline.

 

[Darklink401]

Yeah, Sonic doesnt have a reflect or anything so what else are ya ganna pocket? Throwing it a lil over the ledge and then also throwing a bowling ball right over the ledge is quite powerful too if youre fast enough.

And yeah, that'd be super OP lol. Poor Ness already has to deal with that kinda! Pac-Man too if he needs a 2nd jump on the trampoline.

What about B-reverse pocket to drop the thing over the edge, but a couple feet away, but you also land on stage, then drop bowling ball, to cover a larger area? :D

 

[Sonsa]

What about B-reverse pocket to drop the thing over the edge, but a couple feet away, but you also land on stage, then drop bowling ball, to cover a larger area? :D

Spring weirdly drops straight down as soon as you throw it out, it's got no horizontal momentum, so it would probably just hit the stage. Unless... Ohh am I understanding your off stage, B-reverse while heading for the stage, land, bowling ball? Yeah that could work really nicely! Would take some nice precision but the reward sounds great!

 

[Darklink401]

Spring weirdly drops straight down as soon as you throw it out, it's got no horizontal momentum, so it would probably just hit the stage. Unless... Ohh am I understanding your off stage, B-reverse while heading for the stage, land, bowling ball? Yeah that could work really nicely! Would take some nice precision but the reward sounds great!

I really dont even know if it would work as I imagine it, but its 2 AM and my mind is not in peak condition, haha XD

But yeah, it'd be pretty cool if it worked~

 

[Sonsa]

I really dont even know if it would work as I imagine it, but its 2 AM and my mind is not in peak condition, haha XD

But yeah, it'd be pretty cool if it worked~

I'll try and see! Tomorrow I'll head home and try to pull it off, could be a great tech to learn.

Anyway, if there aren't any other objections to the numbers we've agreed on I guess tomorrow I should go in depth with ZSS or Yoshi as he was mentioned. Also still wanna cover Pac-Man and Duck Hunt, those matchups are insane haha

 

[Darklink401]

I'll try and see! Tomorrow I'll head home and try to pull it off, could be a great tech to learn.

Anyway, if there aren't any other objections to the numbers we've agreed on I guess tomorrow I should go in depth with ZSS or Yoshi as he was mentioned. Also still wanna cover Pac-Man and Duck Hunt, those matchups are insane haha

Pacman is a pretty silly matchup indeed.

And yeah Yoshi is definitely in Yoshi's favor, we just gotta find out by how much XD haha


Anyway, see ya tomorrow, for more discussin ;D

This thread is fun :3

 

[F1reants]

Speaking of Yoshi, I battled a pretty good one last night on For Glory, and the MU feels to be more in Yoshi's favor. I tried keeping my distance and pulling up trees and gyroids to find an opening for Down-Airs and grabs, but getting in was a challenge as they began to throw out eggs, which come out fairly fast. It took me a while to find their pattern to get in but their ability to zone got some free damage off on me. It may just be this yoshi, but they were super aggressive so I managed to snag some kills with trees as they kept running after me as I watered my sapling. Their combo game is insane, it's difficult to approach without being punished for one missed move. This player recovered super high so bowling balls were no-go's either. Ultimately it felt like we were about the same skill level and knew our characters very well but Yoshi was able to gain a couple more wins than me.

 

[RAzul]

Speaking of Yoshi, I battled a pretty good one last night on For Glory, and the MU feels to be more in Yoshi's favor. I tried keeping my distance and pulling up trees and gyroids to find an opening for Down-Airs and grabs, but getting in was a challenge as they began to throw out eggs, which come out fairly fast. It took me a while to find their pattern to get in but their ability to zone got some free damage off on me. It may just be this yoshi, but they were super aggressive so I managed to snag some kills with trees as they kept running after me as I watered my sapling. Their combo game is insane, it's difficult to approach without being punished for one missed move. This player recovered super high so bowling balls were no-go's either. Ultimately it felt like we were about the same skill level and knew our characters very well but Yoshi was able to gain a couple more wins than me.

Some added insight on this MU on my end. Talking numbers, I'd say 60-40 as a stretch but 55-45 as more of a reasonable number. I have much experience in this MU as my best friend is a Yoshi main. He wins a lot and I'd like to say we're on just about the same skill level. I pride myself in my Villager play, though everyone always needs improvements. I think Vill's difficulty in netting a stock is the major issue here. Yoshi is not easily gimpable due to his DJ SA. Therefore, patience and cunning are huge in this MU. His USmash is scary as well as his NAir, Uair and jab. A mix of hard pressure offense and run away, spaced defense is how I see it. Yoshi is VERY strong and you ALWAYS need to look out for his FAir spike off the edge. After a while, you leRn it and never get caught by it, at least I don't. Make sure to utilize aerial Neutral B reverses to fake them out and land safely on stage. Aside from that, sapling water accumulation for surprise kills and stages with platforms that Yoshi cant USmash through s a big help. Always have a lol it's out but don't abuse it or punishment will follow. That's my general knowledge aside from turnip usage and the rest of our useful tools. Hope I helped.

P.S. Can anyone PLEASE direct me to the best strategies when facing a player??? He's short' quick and very interruptive. I need help -- badly. Thanks in advanced.

 

[Darklink401]

Some added insight on this MU on my end. Talking numbers, I'd say 60-40 as a stretch but 55-45 as more of a reasonable number. I have much experience in this MU as my best friend is a Yoshi main. He wins a lot and I'd like to say we're on just about the same skill level. I pride myself in my Villager play, though everyone always needs improvements. I think Vill's difficulty in netting a stock is the major issue here. Yoshi is not easily gimpable due to his DJ SA. Therefore, patience and cunning are huge in this MU. His USmash is scary as well as his NAir, Uair and jab. A mix of hard pressure offense and run away, spaced defense is how I see it. Yoshi is VERY strong and you ALWAYS need to look out for his FAir spike off the edge. After a while, you leRn it and never get caught by it, at least I don't. Make sure to utilize aerial Neutral B reverses to fake them out and land safely on stage. Aside from that, sapling water accumulation for surprise kills and stages with platforms that Yoshi cant USmash through s a big help. Always have a lol it's out but don't abuse it or punishment will follow. That's my general knowledge aside from turnip usage and the rest of our useful tools. Hope I helped.

P.S. Can anyone PLEASE direct me to the best strategies when facing a player??? He's short' quick and very interruptive. I need help -- badly. Thanks in advanced.

Ness is easy. Pocketing Pk fire is neat, but you can always just jump over itfollowed by a lloid on the ground.

It's actually easy to punish Ness that uses PK Fire by jumping over it and doing FF slingshot. With a few of those he will be at enough damage to take offstage, where if you can get his jump away, with a slingshot or such, pocketing his PK thunder is easy.

 

[Antonykun]

Some added insight on this MU on my end. Talking numbers, I'd say 60-40 as a stretch but 55-45 as more of a reasonable number. I have much experience in this MU as my best friend is a Yoshi main. He wins a lot and I'd like to say we're on just about the same skill level. I pride myself in my Villager play, though everyone always needs improvements. I think Vill's difficulty in netting a stock is the major issue here. Yoshi is not easily gimpable due to his DJ SA. Therefore, patience and cunning are huge in this MU. His USmash is scary as well as his NAir, Uair and jab. A mix of hard pressure offense and run away, spaced defense is how I see it. Yoshi is VERY strong and you ALWAYS need to look out for his FAir spike off the edge. After a while, you leRn it and never get caught by it, at least I don't. Make sure to utilize aerial Neutral B reverses to fake them out and land safely on stage. Aside from that, sapling water accumulation for surprise kills and stages with platforms that Yoshi cant USmash through s a big help. Always have a lol it's out but don't abuse it or punishment will follow. That's my general knowledge aside from turnip usage and the rest of our useful tools. Hope I helped.

P.S. Can anyone PLEASE direct me to the best strategies when facing a player??? He's short' quick and very interruptive. I need help -- badly. Thanks in advanced.

uhhh N-air and respect the Sheild? You can react to PK fire assuming no lag. But seriously respect the Shield and the dash grab.

 

[Sonsa]

Well I tried the spring b-reverse bowling ball edgeguard. It's just too hard, but kinda possible! I'd just chase Sonic off-stage though.

Yoshi now? I do think Yoshi has annoying...I guess priority. Well lemme see here:
Villager vs Yoshi
Well you can pocket eggs... can be kinda helpful, but you can't spam them like he tends to do. Plus they go at seemingly random angles. I think it's whatever angle Yoshi chose, but sometimes you pocket it before you can tell what angle it is exactly. Pocket might be better for recovering maybe.

Yoshi's tend to always recover high. This would be great if Yoshi's second jump didn't have super armor for some reason... I don't know the exact frames, and I don't suggest getting close since you could just get attacked, but um... bowling ball and watering can could are great when he isn't recovering high. When he is...I guess try and punish the landing? But yknow - when he burns that second jump and it's over, slingshot, keep him off the stage cause now all he can do is egg to recover!

Yoshi's nair, dash attack, and jabs are great. Jab can get you away from them if youre trying to follow-up with something, dash can punish gyroid attempts, and nair lasts long and lets Yoshi travels to where he wants usually.

Yoshi's also have that forward-air spike and would love to use it, so throw a gyroid from afar, don't really ride one, don't set one up while you're kinda close, and...I'd recover low with Balloons. Not a whole lot Yoshi can do - maybe a back-air to try and stage-spike you or pop balloons.

Tree can help keep them away from you if you need to think for a bit, but they'll be throwing eggs trying to destroy it. Axe could always help too.

Slingshots are pretty good, Yoshi will want to approach in the air due to his great air movement. Umm... Your nair should stop some Yoshi combos too I guess, but he isn't very combo heavy, more just follow ups.

Oh, Yoshi's can also roll up into an egg. Watering can they off a ledge if you can, they will die. If you can't just shield or down-air turnips, but not many people go for the egg. Yoshi also has that command grab where he...eats you. What can I say? Watch out. Oh and his down-b. So don't be right under him unless you have good timing with up-air turnips! Those will stop him. And grounded, it functions like Bowser's down-b, so y'know...keep your space.

Yeah, I dunno... It's quite tough. Yoshi can get tripped up by some projectiles, but when he gets momentum he can run with it, and that jab, dash, and nair can kill our momentum quite quick too. Plus edgeguarding him would make this even if he didn't have super-armor. I'd also give this a 40:60 in Villager's favor...

Stages Villager prefers: Battlefield, ...umm... Maybe Walled Omega's?
Stages Yoshi prefers: Smashville, T&C, FD, Duck Hunt, Delfino probably, Wuhu probably

Now Ness? Ness should be easier.

Villager vs Ness
Okay, well you can pocket PK Thunder and PK Fire! But be careful, these energy based attacks you steal can heal Ness if he predicts your use of them! He might just be baiting you! If you really want your pocketed PK fire to activate for some reason and can't catch Ness, it'll activate when you hit your tree with it. So yknow! There's that!

Ness also actually has a reflector though - his bat, so you can bait him into using that and pocket your own non-energy based projectiles - tree, gyroid, bowling ball even on stages with platforms!

Pocket has another great use in this matchup though, when you see Ness is going to PK Thunder himself into you use Pocket's invincibility to have him go right through you and potentially fly right off the stage! (Killed with this, it was awesome)

When Ness is recovering he'll try to use his jumps as wisely as possible to avoid using PK Thunder (which you can pocket to gimp him) But thankfully he doesn't have super armor, he can attack, but it can cut his jump short, so slingshot him so he has to PK thunder. And thats when you pocket that and win.

When you're trying to recover, Ness may try to spike you or use PK thunder to pop a balloon or hit you so he can follow up with an up-air. I'd just give him a gyroid to deal with (as always) and recover low. Maybe he'll pop a balloon, but you can still make it back fine while he has PK Thunder endlag. He may just avoid all this and try to stage spike you though - so yknow, prepare to tech just in case and you will live. He could also try to PK Flash, but... we can be creative and quick with our recovery and dodge it. Just don't ride gyroid. Ya wouldnt wanna do that anyway as Ness can reflect you to your death. Riding gyroid to recover high could be fine though! You'll be in a helpless state though so...be tricky in landing.

Ness's PK Flash shouldnt be a problem overall, it has huge start-up and needs a good read. Villager doesnt have a lot of cool down overall so I'd just send a gyroid his way and keep your distance.

PK Fire can be annoying, but it doesnt activate on shield anymore (yay!) and it's got some endlag. You should be sticking in the air anyway for slingshots and turnips so jump over it and punish.

Tree can be good, axe can be good, watering can could be great for forcing him to PK Thunder, aaand you're nair can command space, especially after Ness's down-throw, he'll want to go for 2 or 3 foward airs. All your tilts are pretty great. Another good Ness approach is a falling nair. Up-Tilt this! You can go for a turnip follow up too!

Overall, I think Villager has a clear upper hand. I'd just stay in the air usually, keep some distance, really...respect his shield and grab, don't get too close. When Ness is getting a bit to close tilts are dandy, but his dash attack is good - covers lots of space -so be wary of that. You can shield grab too though! Your back-throw kills almost as good as his! Plus pocketing Ness's recovery is just...embarrassing for the poor kid. But his bat reflecting things real fast is annoying! And he is short. But...the recovery...

I'd say 60:40 in Villager's favor. At least 55:45.

Stages in Villager's favor: Battlefield, Lylat, maybe Wuhu, Halberd
Stages in Ness's favor: Smashville, T&C, FD and most omegas, Delfino

Uh-oh, here comes a 3rd one.
Villager vs Rosalina
After fighting with getting my butt kicked by AceStarThe3rd, a really awesome Rosalina, we talked a bit about this matchup. First here's just what I noticed.
No pocketing anything, and using it for invincibility can get you killed with its endlag. But um...could come in handy against passing moves like an up-air as you float to the stage, and I guess you can pocket stuff that falls from your tree. But no star bits, I learned the hard way.

Rosalina's jab is really good...but the best thing you can do is just wait it out, she does get pushed back albeit slowly... thing is it can push you into Luma and suddenly you're getting hit. I'd really respect the jab. However if used on the wrong side, it can have some endlag so I'd try to bury her. Luma can still attack while Rosalina is buried, so try to follow up quick! Up-smash, foward smash, or if Luma is really close, settle for a down or forward tilt.

Rosalina's up-air is also very scary and can be a main kill tool. Try to air dodge at the right time and avoid staying in one place for too long!

Luma is also awesome, but when you kill him, which shouldnt be too bad, a chopped tree could do it! He doesn't have a shield so have at it. But anyway, when he's gone, it can be tough to pin Rosa down. She's quite floaty and can gravitation pull your slingshots. But it's doable! Get near and try to predict where she jumps!

Speaking of gravitational pull... It absorbs a lot of your moveset including your cover, stage control, some approaches, and even kill moves. It also lasts a bit longer than it seems... Just try to shoot one thing (a gyroid) to bait it and punish. Careful though, it also has a hitbox (your spinning projectile) though not that devastating.

Tilts should be used more than usual and I'd try to stay grounded. Nair can be a good tool that also could separate Rosalina and Luma. Turnips are great too as always.

Edgeguarding each other is tricky. Villager can recover low and avoid most set ups. Riding gyroid and playing mindgames with the momentum is effective too! Some will gravitational pull out of habit and some will just start charging a smash to get you. But yknow...dont use this too often, they can catch on and go down-air you. Rosalina could get a bowling ball if she's trying to recover from right below the ledge, but horizontally Rosalina can usually just bypass you entirely. You may be able to punish with a slingshot at least!

Overall... You need to play differently with Villager. You can't just throw out whatever you want, Villager can't really overwhelm with projectiles as well as other characters, you need to focus on your melee attacks punishing mistakes. Gravitational pull, Luma, and up-air are the greatest pains. Ace and I agreed this matchup is 45:55 in Villager's favor.

I think Villager prefers Smashville and Rosa might prefer Halberd and T&C. Battlefield seems like a nice neutral stage.

 

[RAzul]

Well I tried the spring b-reverse bowling ball edgeguard. It's just too hard, but kinda possible! I'd just chase Sonic off-stage though.

Yoshi now? I do think Yoshi has annoying...I guess priority. Well lemme see here:
Villager vs Yoshi
Well you can pocket eggs... can be kinda helpful, but you can't spam them like he tends to do. Plus they go at seemingly random angles. I think it's whatever angle Yoshi chose, but sometimes you pocket it before you can tell what angle it is exactly. Pocket might be better for recovering maybe.

Yoshi's tend to always recover high. This would be great if Yoshi's second jump didn't have super armor for some reason... I don't know the exact frames, and I don't suggest getting close since you could just get attacked, but um... bowling ball and watering can could are great when he isn't recovering high. When he is...I guess try and punish the landing? But yknow - when he burns that second jump and it's over, slingshot, keep him off the stage cause now all he can do is egg to recover!

Yoshi's nair, dash attack, and jabs are great. Jab can get you away from them if youre trying to follow-up with something, dash can punish gyroid attempts, and nair lasts long and lets Yoshi travels to where he wants usually.

Yoshi's also have that forward-air spike and would love to use it, so throw a gyroid from afar, don't really ride one, don't set one up while you're kinda close, and...I'd recover low with Balloons. Not a whole lot Yoshi can do - maybe a back-air to try and stage-spike you or pop balloons.

Tree can help keep them away from you if you need to think for a bit, but they'll be throwing eggs trying to destroy it. Axe could always help too.

Slingshots are pretty good, Yoshi will want to approach in the air due to his great air movement. Umm... Your nair should stop some Yoshi combos too I guess, but he isn't very combo heavy, more just follow ups.

Oh, Yoshi's can also roll up into an egg. Watering can they off a ledge if you can, they will die. If you can't just shield or down-air turnips, but not many people go for the egg. Yoshi also has that command grab where he...eats you. What can I say? Watch out. Oh and his down-b. So don't be right under him unless you have good timing with up-air turnips! Those will stop him. And grounded, it functions like Bowser's down-b, so y'know...keep your space.

Yeah, I dunno... It's quite tough. Yoshi can get tripped up by some projectiles, but when he gets momentum he can run with it, and that jab, dash, and nair can kill our momentum quite quick too. Plus edgeguarding him would make this even if he didn't have super-armor. I'd also give this a 40:60 in Villager's favor...

Stages Villager prefers: Battlefield, ...umm... Maybe Walled Omega's?
Stages Yoshi prefers: Smashville, T&C, FD, Duck Hunt, Delfino probably, Wuhu probably

Now Ness? Ness should be easier.

Villager vs Ness
Okay, well you can pocket PK Thunder and PK Fire! But be careful, these energy based attacks you steal can heal Ness if he predicts your use of them! He might just be baiting you! If you really want your pocketed PK fire to activate for some reason and can't catch Ness, it'll activate when you hit your tree with it. So yknow! There's that!

Ness also actually has a reflector though - his bat, so you can bait him into using that and pocket your own non-energy based projectiles - tree, gyroid, bowling ball even on stages with platforms!

Pocket has another great use in this matchup though, when you see Ness is going to PK Thunder himself into you use Pocket's invincibility to have him go right through you and potentially fly right off the stage! (Killed with this, it was awesome)

When Ness is recovering he'll try to use his jumps as wisely as possible to avoid using PK Thunder (which you can pocket to gimp him) But thankfully he doesn't have super armor, he can attack, but it can cut his jump short, so slingshot him so he has to PK thunder. And thats when you pocket that and win.

When you're trying to recover, Ness may try to spike you or use PK thunder to pop a balloon or hit you so he can follow up with an up-air. I'd just give him a gyroid to deal with (as always) and recover low. Maybe he'll pop a balloon, but you can still make it back fine while he has PK Thunder endlag. He may just avoid all this and try to stage spike you though - so yknow, prepare to tech just in case and you will live. He could also try to PK Flash, but... we can be creative and quick with our recovery and dodge it. Just don't ride gyroid. Ya wouldnt wanna do that anyway as Ness can reflect you to your death. Riding gyroid to recover high could be fine though! You'll be in a helpless state though so...be tricky in landing.

Ness's PK Flash shouldnt be a problem overall, it has huge start-up and needs a good read. Villager doesnt have a lot of cool down overall so I'd just send a gyroid his way and keep your distance.

PK Fire can be annoying, but it doesnt activate on shield anymore (yay!) and it's got some endlag. You should be sticking in the air anyway for slingshots and turnips so jump over it and punish.

Tree can be good, axe can be good, watering can could be great for forcing him to PK Thunder, aaand you're nair can command space, especially after Ness's down-throw, he'll want to go for 2 or 3 foward airs. All your tilts are pretty great. Another good Ness approach is a falling nair. Up-Tilt this! You can go for a turnip follow up too!

Overall, I think Villager has a clear upper hand. I'd just stay in the air usually, keep some distance, really...respect his shield and grab, don't get too close. When Ness is getting a bit to close tilts are dandy, but his dash attack is good - covers lots of space -so be wary of that. You can shield grab too though! Your back-throw kills almost as good as his! Plus pocketing Ness's recovery is just...embarrassing for the poor kid. But his bat reflecting things real fast is annoying! And he is short. But...the recovery...

I'd say 60:40 in Villager's favor. At least 55:45.

Stages in Villager's favor: Battlefield, Lylat, maybe Wuhu, Halberd
Stages in Ness's favor: Smashville, T&C, FD and most omegas, Delfino

Uh-oh, here comes a 3rd one.
Villager vs Rosalina
After fighting with getting my butt kicked by AceStarThe3rd, a really awesome Rosalina, we talked a bit about this matchup. First here's just what I noticed.
No pocketing anything, and using it for invincibility can get you killed with its endlag. But um...could come in handy against passing moves like an up-air as you float to the stage, and I guess you can pocket stuff that falls from your tree. But no star bits, I learned the hard way.

Rosalina's jab is really good...but the best thing you can do is just wait it out, she does get pushed back albeit slowly... thing is it can push you into Luma and suddenly you're getting hit. I'd really respect the jab. However if used on the wrong side, it can have some endlag so I'd try to bury her. Luma can still attack while Rosalina is buried, so try to follow up quick! Up-smash, foward smash, or if Luma is really close, settle for a down or forward tilt.

Rosalina's up-air is also very scary and can be a main kill tool. Try to air dodge at the right time and avoid staying in one place for too long!

Luma is also awesome, but when you kill him, which shouldnt be too bad, a chopped tree could do it! He doesn't have a shield so have at it. But anyway, when he's gone, it can be tough to pin Rosa down. She's quite floaty and can gravitation pull your slingshots. But it's doable! Get near and try to predict where she jumps!

Speaking of gravitational pull... It absorbs a lot of your moveset including your cover, stage control, some approaches, and even kill moves. It also lasts a bit longer than it seems... Just try to shoot one thing (a gyroid) to bait it and punish. Careful though, it also has a hitbox (your spinning projectile) though not that devastating.

Tilts should be used more than usual and I'd try to stay grounded. Nair can be a good tool that also could separate Rosalina and Luma. Turnips are great too as always.

Edgeguarding each other is tricky. Villager can recover low and avoid most set ups. Riding gyroid and playing mindgames with the momentum is effective too! Some will gravitational pull out of habit and some will just start charging a smash to get you. But yknow...dont use this too often, they can catch on and go down-air you. Rosalina could get a bowling ball if she's trying to recover from right below the ledge, but horizontally Rosalina can usually just bypass you entirely. You may be able to punish with a slingshot at least!

Overall... You need to play differently with Villager. You can't just throw out whatever you want, Villager can't really overwhelm with projectiles as well as other characters, you need to focus on your melee attacks punishing mistakes. Gravitational pull, Luma, and up-air are the greatest pains. Ace and I agreed this matchup is 45:55 in Villager's favor.

I think Villager prefers Smashville and Rosa might prefer Halberd and T&C. Battlefield seems like a nice neutral stage.

Nice tips sir. Many thanks.

 

[Antonykun]

Well I tried the spring b-reverse bowling ball edgeguard. It's just too hard, but kinda possible! I'd just chase Sonic off-stage though.

Yoshi now? I do think Yoshi has annoying...I guess priority. Well lemme see here:
Villager vs Yoshi
Well you can pocket eggs... can be kinda helpful, but you can't spam them like he tends to do. Plus they go at seemingly random angles. I think it's whatever angle Yoshi chose, but sometimes you pocket it before you can tell what angle it is exactly. Pocket might be better for recovering maybe.

Yoshi's tend to always recover high. This would be great if Yoshi's second jump didn't have super armor for some reason... I don't know the exact frames, and I don't suggest getting close since you could just get attacked, but um... bowling ball and watering can could are great when he isn't recovering high. When he is...I guess try and punish the landing? But yknow - when he burns that second jump and it's over, slingshot, keep him off the stage cause now all he can do is egg to recover!

Yoshi's nair, dash attack, and jabs are great. Jab can get you away from them if youre trying to follow-up with something, dash can punish gyroid attempts, and nair lasts long and lets Yoshi travels to where he wants usually.

Yoshi's also have that forward-air spike and would love to use it, so throw a gyroid from afar, don't really ride one, don't set one up while you're kinda close, and...I'd recover low with Balloons. Not a whole lot Yoshi can do - maybe a back-air to try and stage-spike you or pop balloons.

Tree can help keep them away from you if you need to think for a bit, but they'll be throwing eggs trying to destroy it. Axe could always help too.

Slingshots are pretty good, Yoshi will want to approach in the air due to his great air movement. Umm... Your nair should stop some Yoshi combos too I guess, but he isn't very combo heavy, more just follow ups.

Oh, Yoshi's can also roll up into an egg. Watering can they off a ledge if you can, they will die. If you can't just shield or down-air turnips, but not many people go for the egg. Yoshi also has that command grab where he...eats you. What can I say? Watch out. Oh and his down-b. So don't be right under him unless you have good timing with up-air turnips! Those will stop him. And grounded, it functions like Bowser's down-b, so y'know...keep your space.

Yeah, I dunno... It's quite tough. Yoshi can get tripped up by some projectiles, but when he gets momentum he can run with it, and that jab, dash, and nair can kill our momentum quite quick too. Plus edgeguarding him would make this even if he didn't have super-armor. I'd also give this a 40:60 in Villager's favor...

Stages Villager prefers: Battlefield, ...umm... Maybe Walled Omega's?
Stages Yoshi prefers: Smashville, T&C, FD, Duck Hunt, Delfino probably, Wuhu probably

Now Ness? Ness should be easier.

Villager vs Ness
Okay, well you can pocket PK Thunder and PK Fire! But be careful, these energy based attacks you steal can heal Ness if he predicts your use of them! He might just be baiting you! If you really want your pocketed PK fire to activate for some reason and can't catch Ness, it'll activate when you hit your tree with it. So yknow! There's that!

Ness also actually has a reflector though - his bat, so you can bait him into using that and pocket your own non-energy based projectiles - tree, gyroid, bowling ball even on stages with platforms!

Pocket has another great use in this matchup though, when you see Ness is going to PK Thunder himself into you use Pocket's invincibility to have him go right through you and potentially fly right off the stage! (Killed with this, it was awesome)

When Ness is recovering he'll try to use his jumps as wisely as possible to avoid using PK Thunder (which you can pocket to gimp him) But thankfully he doesn't have super armor, he can attack, but it can cut his jump short, so slingshot him so he has to PK thunder. And thats when you pocket that and win.

When you're trying to recover, Ness may try to spike you or use PK thunder to pop a balloon or hit you so he can follow up with an up-air. I'd just give him a gyroid to deal with (as always) and recover low. Maybe he'll pop a balloon, but you can still make it back fine while he has PK Thunder endlag. He may just avoid all this and try to stage spike you though - so yknow, prepare to tech just in case and you will live. He could also try to PK Flash, but... we can be creative and quick with our recovery and dodge it. Just don't ride gyroid. Ya wouldnt wanna do that anyway as Ness can reflect you to your death. Riding gyroid to recover high could be fine though! You'll be in a helpless state though so...be tricky in landing.

Ness's PK Flash shouldnt be a problem overall, it has huge start-up and needs a good read. Villager doesnt have a lot of cool down overall so I'd just send a gyroid his way and keep your distance.

PK Fire can be annoying, but it doesnt activate on shield anymore (yay!) and it's got some endlag. You should be sticking in the air anyway for slingshots and turnips so jump over it and punish.

Tree can be good, axe can be good, watering can could be great for forcing him to PK Thunder, aaand you're nair can command space, especially after Ness's down-throw, he'll want to go for 2 or 3 foward airs. All your tilts are pretty great. Another good Ness approach is a falling nair. Up-Tilt this! You can go for a turnip follow up too!

Overall, I think Villager has a clear upper hand. I'd just stay in the air usually, keep some distance, really...respect his shield and grab, don't get too close. When Ness is getting a bit to close tilts are dandy, but his dash attack is good - covers lots of space -so be wary of that. You can shield grab too though! Your back-throw kills almost as good as his! Plus pocketing Ness's recovery is just...embarrassing for the poor kid. But his bat reflecting things real fast is annoying! And he is short. But...the recovery...

I'd say 60:40 in Villager's favor. At least 55:45.

Stages in Villager's favor: Battlefield, Lylat, maybe Wuhu, Halberd
Stages in Ness's favor: Smashville, T&C, FD and most omegas, Delfino

Uh-oh, here comes a 3rd one.
Villager vs Rosalina
After fighting with getting my butt kicked by AceStarThe3rd, a really awesome Rosalina, we talked a bit about this matchup. First here's just what I noticed.
No pocketing anything, and using it for invincibility can get you killed with its endlag. But um...could come in handy against passing moves like an up-air as you float to the stage, and I guess you can pocket stuff that falls from your tree. But no star bits, I learned the hard way.

Rosalina's jab is really good...but the best thing you can do is just wait it out, she does get pushed back albeit slowly... thing is it can push you into Luma and suddenly you're getting hit. I'd really respect the jab. However if used on the wrong side, it can have some endlag so I'd try to bury her. Luma can still attack while Rosalina is buried, so try to follow up quick! Up-smash, foward smash, or if Luma is really close, settle for a down or forward tilt.

Rosalina's up-air is also very scary and can be a main kill tool. Try to air dodge at the right time and avoid staying in one place for too long!

Luma is also awesome, but when you kill him, which shouldnt be too bad, a chopped tree could do it! He doesn't have a shield so have at it. But anyway, when he's gone, it can be tough to pin Rosa down. She's quite floaty and can gravitation pull your slingshots. But it's doable! Get near and try to predict where she jumps!

Speaking of gravitational pull... It absorbs a lot of your moveset including your cover, stage control, some approaches, and even kill moves. It also lasts a bit longer than it seems... Just try to shoot one thing (a gyroid) to bait it and punish. Careful though, it also has a hitbox (your spinning projectile) though not that devastating.

Tilts should be used more than usual and I'd try to stay grounded. Nair can be a good tool that also could separate Rosalina and Luma. Turnips are great too as always.

Edgeguarding each other is tricky. Villager can recover low and avoid most set ups. Riding gyroid and playing mindgames with the momentum is effective too! Some will gravitational pull out of habit and some will just start charging a smash to get you. But yknow...dont use this too often, they can catch on and go down-air you. Rosalina could get a bowling ball if she's trying to recover from right below the ledge, but horizontally Rosalina can usually just bypass you entirely. You may be able to punish with a slingshot at least!

Overall... You need to play differently with Villager. You can't just throw out whatever you want, Villager can't really overwhelm with projectiles as well as other characters, you need to focus on your melee attacks punishing mistakes. Gravitational pull, Luma, and up-air are the greatest pains. Ace and I agreed this matchup is 45:55 in Villager's favor.

I think Villager prefers Smashville and Rosa might prefer Halberd and T&C. Battlefield seems like a nice neutral stage.

You got to fight @AceStarThe3rd ?!
QQ

 

[cree318]

Great write-up, here are my feelings on these MUs


- His high airspeed sets him apart from other heavyweights, which makes him harder to sting together hits. This also allows him to come in with aerials, and if you're shielding, retreat to a safe distance.
- The super-armor he receives from his double jump protects him from being gimped by Villy and allows him to have a safe recovery. If you can get him to use his double jump early or hit him after the super-armor is over he becomes much more gimpable.
- A pocketed egg isn't great but it can be strung in after a dash attack or short hop dair.
- He can jab cancel into an upsmash so watch out for that.
- Although his airspeed allows him to close the gap, using Lloids are a great way to control the airspace as well as the ground game.
- IIRC he can ledge trump to Bair rather easily, which can lead to easy KOs depending on the stage.
- As with almost all MUs, make him recover low and snipe him with either a bowling ball or chopped tree.

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/632322479
video of my most recent Villy vs Yoshi set, match starts at 35:00

If I had to pick I'd say it's probably 60:40 Villager's favor but I think I need more practice against other Yoshi players to see what they can do.


- One of his biggest assets is his Fsmash. It reflects while also increasing the speed and damage output of the projectile. Try to bait out this with a Lloid and either pocket the reflection or come in with an aerial like nair or dair.
- His PK fire can combo into grabs, smashes, and aerials and is one of his better ways at racking up damage.
- Look out for the classic dthrow > fair > fair > ... This is a great way for him to push you off stage and even get a KO. Nair is your best move in this situation due to its fast starting speed and ability to push Ness away a decent amount.
- His PK thunder can be used to safely combo off stage. It can disrupt your recovery and may also be able to pop your balloons.
- Both PK fire and thunder can be pocketed, but watch out when you use them because he can PSI magnet them and there is little to no ending lag when hes recovering damage.
- You can also pocket his PK thunder to gimp his recovery but make sure you don't go for it too late or you will be hit with his PK thunder 2. You can also use the watering can to move him out of position or off the stage while PK thunder is active.
- His Bthrow is devastating when you are at higher percentages and his Fthrow can be used to get quick kills on walk off stages like the second part of Castle Siege.
- Personally, I prefer a pre-watered to the axe as a kill move, but both are great ways to secure the KO.

This MU can get pretty tough, but Ness shouldn't be able to out-zone you. I'd agree in saying it's in the 60:40 - 55:45 area in Villager's favor.

(I don't really have that much experience playing against her but I'll add my thoughts based on what I've played)
- Rosalina herself doesn't have that many KO moves, but Luma can get kills quite easily.
- The main goal of the game is to get Luma out as quickly as possible. If she shoots Luma away from her, ping it with fairs/bairs or come in close with dairs or ftilts. You can also plant saplings and hit Luma with the growing tree for some easy damage.
- Above Rosalina is a bad place to be, her uair, utilt, and usmash all cover directly above her and make hitting her back very difficult. Try to just got for the ledge or overshoot it and recover low.
- Rosalina is very tall so it makes hitting her with fairs/bairs much easier and should allow you to string together attacks easily.
- Gravity Pull puts a damper on Villy's zoning game and depending on how often your opponent uses it, may require you to fight more up close than you're used to.
- Her recovery is long but shoots at an angle (I think the launch angle can be modified but not by that much) and has no hitbox. Try to make her recover low and get in some damage with either aerials of bowling balls and if possible force her under the stage.

Based on what I've played I'd say its either an even 50:50 or 45:55 in Rosa's favor. The key to winning though is changing up your playstyle depending on how anti-zone Rosa is.

 

[Makai Wars]

Very good post, I wanted to throw my two cents in for a few;

If I had to pick I'd say it's probably 60:40 Villager's favor but I think I need more practice against other Yoshi players to see what they can do.

60:40 sounds about right, one thing I wanted to note is that Villager's Uair totally beats out Yoshi's Down B, both range and priority wise, so knocking Yoshi into the air with a DSmash to USmash is pretty viable.

Based on what I've played I'd say its either an even 50:50 or 45:55 in Rosa's favor.

My best friend is an avid RosaLuma main-- I'd honestly like to say this is a bad MU for Villager thanks to Rosa neutralizing pellets and rockets and because Luma is just anti Villager in general.
I actually wanted to shift the thread topic to talking about RosaLuma because it's such a troublesome matchup for me, personally. Like I said before, Rosa's Gravitational Pull makes the rockets nearly moot unless you ride on them, and landing it would be super situational due to how Rosa doesn't have too much lag on missed smashes than say, Ness or Falcon, even with heavy mindgames, you'd be lucky to hit with a ridden rocket maybe twice.

The other issue is that Rosa has so much range when she moves, especially since she can extend her range with Luma, making pellet spacing even more unfavorable. Closing in on her feels like a fool's errand since she's perfectly capable of out camping Villager by ridding you of projectiles then simply shieldgrabing and tossing you away before running off while waiting for Luma to respawn so she can rinse and repeat.

Hitting her while she recovers is also pretty unfun, since her uair beats out Villager's dair, and she can go in pretty deep diagonally before needing to recover--it seems she can snap to the ledge before being in range of the bowling ball but that might be just me, ledge trumping doesn't do much either thanks to her fair being one of her best attacks and her nair's silly range.

Playing defensive would work for a bit, Luma can be dealt with by a few approaching dairs or a tree/axe swipe, but after that you're left with either being forced to approach or waiting for Luma to come back so she can shoot it at you again and get free %.
Play offensive and she goes on the defense, play defensive and she just sits back and runs the clock, I feel like this MU is akin to the Abadango (Pac-Man) V Dabuz(Rosa) set from Apex, where Dabuz won by running the clock twice and Pac couldn't do much about it because of some of the things I listed above.
I'm sorrry this post sounds llike a huge whine fest, but I'd really hope fellow Villagers can help me out with this MU because it seems so dismal to me. Like, I actually picked up Pikachu just to fight her.

 

[Sonsa]

So two people think Yoshi is 60:40 in our favor? Well alright, I do think while Yoshi has good tools Villager can handle it. I haven't really fought any Yoshi's outside of For Glory, so I dunno. But what about super armor on double jump and his great jab? What to do about those? But alright, I guess it's 60:40 then. Well... I'm not sure. I guess Villager has better tools, but "just waiting for his 2nd double jump to end so you can attack without it having super armor" doesn't work usually, Yoshi can throw out an attack that has the same priority as slingshot, like nair. I dunno...I just haven't seen or played this matchup enough I guess... Just seems like every attack I land Yoshi has something with faster frames than any of my follow ups. I always switch to Greninja when dealing with Yoshi.

Rosalina is a very tricky matchup. I actually had another set with another good Rosalina today. Not as good as Ace's but still gave me some ideas.

What's tough about this matchup is, as Ace told me, you have to play different against Villager. Your usual game plan as Villager just doesn't work. You have to be very creative.

I was trying to do my usual gyroid cover to slingshot approach, but whoops - gravitational pull. Now I'm close to Rosa and two characters can hit me.

What's much better and I was even told to do - so even as Ace predicted it, it was just a strong option for Villager, was to send a gyroid and try and get in there for a melee attack like turnips or nair. Rosa still wants to gravitational pull because gyroid will still hit Luma, and when Luma dies Rosa loses some kill options and needs to run for a bit!

I also think using the tree can be important. You must be tricky with your timing cause it can be gravitationally pulled, but a fallen tree couuuld break Rosa's shield and send Luma flying. Even better, the hitbox by just growing the tree can be a powerful attack on Rosalina who is light and often going for grabs. Also hurts Luma quite a bit!

The most important thing for this matchup, in my opinion, is using gyroid constantly, to bait the pull and condition opponents into using the pull when they see a gyroid. Make it like a habit to them. Gyroid = Gravitational Pull. Because that's how you get some important kills by riding the gyroid.
I've tricked Rosalinas quite a lot with this! Riding the gyroid to recover! Gravitational Pull has no effect on it and they can actually die from it. Even if they try to charge a smash you can slow the ride by holding back and attack or at least kill Luma (or at least launch him up for a slingshot follow-up to death maybe?)
Now, this is obviously quite risky though. Rosa's can dip under and hit you with an up-air just like they can when you're simply setting up a gyroid to cover you. Rosa's can also just jump if they expect this and hurry to punish your helpless state.
But...I think that's just how you havta play. You need to be brave, risky, and out of your comfort zone. Smart Rosa's have all the tools to keep up with you and probably time you out too.

I think the most important tools you have are gyroid, turnips, growing the tree, and being able to recover by flying under the stage to the other ledge. Rosa's sometimes to garuntee the kill will start setting things up on one side, and get frustrated when you say "nope" and head to the other. They often can't punish in time either, but you still need a smart get-up option.

It's a really uncomfortable matchup where you need to sorta...break habits and think differently. I try staying grounded and it helps. I try to only use slingshot when Rosa jumps in for an approach and gyroid isn't out or off-stage for a potential kill. Tilts should be used more often. And instead of just having strong options like other matchups you're options need to be a lot more calculated. I think this is a matchup where both characters need to know their opponent well and make great predictions and condition each other. The only difference is I don't think Rosalina needs to be as unpredictable. 45:55 still sounds good to me as both have good tools, but Rosa benefits from rock/paper/scissors situations more often than not.

 

[cree318]

I got the chance to play a Rosalina player the other day (we were testing out custom sets). Customs aside, I'd say this MU is in Rosa's favor. It's definitely not unwinnable but it'll require some creative setups and more up close combat than Villy is used to. I'd say it's somewhere in the 45:55 ~ 40:60 range.

 

[Sonsa]

I got the chance to play a Rosalina player the other day (we were testing out custom sets). Customs aside, I'd say this MU is in Rosa's favor. It's definitely not unwinnable but it'll require some creative setups and more up close combat than Villy is used to. I'd say it's somewhere in the 45:55 ~ 40:60 range.

Aha, if only I could be that concise. But yeah, basically what I was rambling about, agreed! Very specifically maybe like 43:57.

But anyway, what about Yoshi? He seems to have significant frame advantage and that super armor can more often than not make our off-stage game irrelevant and shrug off kill attempts with up-air turnips and let Yoshi punish these attempts with a wide variety of moves. I really don't agree with 60:40 and need help understanding why two people have agreed to that.

 

[SoniCraft]

Another important thing when fighting Rosalina is to always have a tree up so that you have the option to use axe. Axe is a very solid melee option that you pretty much need because you can't really use slingshot as effectively, and you need more options so you can mix it up. Also one good thing slingshot can do is smack that little Luma until it dies, which I know is what we all want. x3

 

[cree318]

But anyway, what about Yoshi? He seems to have significant frame advantage and that super armor can more often than not make our off-stage game irrelevant and shrug off kill attempts with up-air turnips and let Yoshi punish these attempts with a wide variety of moves. I really don't agree with 60:40 and need help understanding why two people have agreed to that.

From what Yoshi's I've played, they tend to try and use the eggs to cover the air and force you to approach in the ground. From there yoshi has the advantage of either throwing out quick attacks (nair, jab), try to set up on you with fair/dair, or still try to keep you at bay with ftilt/dtilt. However Villager has the benefit of out zoning them, leaving them to have to approach on our terms. The most helpful thing I can think of is to always have control of the air with Lloids or Slingshots. These are invaluable at keeping yoshi players from coming in with their strong aerial game. By limiting them to the ground they are most likely to do sh aerials (nair being the most used one). If you can predict this, try to either shield it and counter with an OoS nair or dodge and follow up with a pivot ftilt or even a well timed dair.

I'll try to get more matches in with other yoshi players sometime this week but this is just what I've been seeing when I've been playing against them.

 

[Sonsa]

From what Yoshi's I've played, they tend to try and use the eggs to cover the air and force you to approach in the ground. From there yoshi has the advantage of either throwing out quick attacks (nair, jab), try to set up on you with fair/dair, or still try to keep you at bay with ftilt/dtilt. However Villager has the benefit of out zoning them, leaving them to have to approach on our terms. The most helpful thing I can think of is to always have control of the air with Lloids or Slingshots. These are invaluable at keeping yoshi players from coming in with their strong aerial game. By limiting them to the ground they are most likely to do sh aerials (nair being the most used one). If you can predict this, try to either shield it and counter with an OoS nair or dodge and follow up with a pivot ftilt or even a well timed dair.

I'll try to get more matches in with other yoshi players sometime this week but this is just what I've been seeing when I've been playing against them.

I need more matches with Yoshis, but I've only seen Yoshi's start spamming eggs when I've set up a tree or am trying to. Slingshot wont hit them, theyre too low to the ground and eggs get in the way, but gyroid can help, but then you need to approach. Trees can help though, after those two jumps Yoshi's mobility options are quite limited.
Maybe I've only planned constantly rolling and annoying ones on For Glory, I tend to struggle with worse players somehow... But yeah, I can see how both characters can utilize their strengths. Maybe 40:60 was too hopeless, but 60:40 seems like you're underestimating Yoshi...

I guess let's...get some more experience and try to figure out the numbers at a later date. In any case, if any great Yoshi mains are out there reading this... we challenge you! XD

 

[cree318]

I guess it wouldn't hurt to throw this up on the Yoshi MU thread. I checked there and they seem to already have some discussion about this MU (there's some talk about Yoshi and Villager earlier in this thread too) but it'll help to get a discussion going with some Yoshi mains.

 

[GSM_Dren]

Yoshi now? I do think Yoshi has annoying...I guess priority. Well lemme see here:
Villager vs Yoshi
Well you can pocket eggs... can be kinda helpful, but you can't spam them like he tends to do. Plus they go at seemingly random angles. I think it's whatever angle Yoshi chose, but sometimes you pocket it before you can tell what angle it is exactly. Pocket might be better for recovering maybe.

Yoshi's tend to always recover high. This would be great if Yoshi's second jump didn't have super armor for some reason... I don't know the exact frames, and I don't suggest getting close since you could just get attacked, but um... bowling ball and watering can could are great when he isn't recovering high. When he is...I guess try and punish the landing? But yknow - when he burns that second jump and it's over, slingshot, keep him off the stage cause now all he can do is egg to recover!

Yoshi's nair, dash attack, and jabs are great. Jab can get you away from them if youre trying to follow-up with something, dash can punish gyroid attempts, and nair lasts long and lets Yoshi travels to where he wants usually.

Yoshi's also have that forward-air spike and would love to use it, so throw a gyroid from afar, don't really ride one, don't set one up while you're kinda close, and...I'd recover low with Balloons. Not a whole lot Yoshi can do - maybe a back-air to try and stage-spike you or pop balloons.

Tree can help keep them away from you if you need to think for a bit, but they'll be throwing eggs trying to destroy it. Axe could always help too.

Slingshots are pretty good, Yoshi will want to approach in the air due to his great air movement. Umm... Your nair should stop some Yoshi combos too I guess, but he isn't very combo heavy, more just follow ups.

Oh, Yoshi's can also roll up into an egg. Watering can they off a ledge if you can, they will die. If you can't just shield or down-air turnips, but not many people go for the egg. Yoshi also has that command grab where he...eats you. What can I say? Watch out. Oh and his down-b. So don't be right under him unless you have good timing with up-air turnips! Those will stop him. And grounded, it functions like Bowser's down-b, so y'know...keep your space.

Yeah, I dunno... It's quite tough. Yoshi can get tripped up by some projectiles, but when he gets momentum he can run with it, and that jab, dash, and nair can kill our momentum quite quick too. Plus edgeguarding him would make this even if he didn't have super-armor. I'd also give this a 40:60 in Villager's favor...

Stages Villager prefers: Battlefield, ...umm... Maybe Walled Omega's?
Stages Yoshi prefers: Smashville, T&C, FD, Duck Hunt, Delfino probably, Wuhu probably

Great write-up, here are my feelings on these MUs


- His high airspeed sets him apart from other heavyweights, which makes him harder to sting together hits. This also allows him to come in with aerials, and if you're shielding, retreat to a safe distance.
- The super-armor he receives from his double jump protects him from being gimped by Villy and allows him to have a safe recovery. If you can get him to use his double jump early or hit him after the super-armor is over he becomes much more gimpable.
- A pocketed egg isn't great but it can be strung in after a dash attack or short hop dair.
- He can jab cancel into an upsmash so watch out for that.
- Although his airspeed allows him to close the gap, using Lloids are a great way to control the airspace as well as the ground game.
- IIRC he can ledge trump to Bair rather easily, which can lead to easy KOs depending on the stage.
- As with almost all MUs, make him recover low and snipe him with either a bowling ball or chopped tree.

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/632322479
video of my most recent Villy vs Yoshi set, match starts at 35:00

If I had to pick I'd say it's probably 60:40 Villager's favor but I think I need more practice against other Yoshi players to see what they can do..

I feel that the matchup ratio is quite opposite, with Yoshi being +1 against Villager. The reason being is that Yoshi is definitely mobile enough to weave through the slingshot and lloid onslaught and beat up villager in close range. Both characters have fantastic projectiles, and either side can outcamp the other. Pocketed eggs are alright, but they only go in the trajectory they were thrown by the yoshi if i recall correctly.

Yoshi has a 3 frame jab and Nair that certainly gives him the edge in close combat. OoS options are nasty now that Yoshi has them, so space your attacks safely on his shield. Dash attack also serves to close the gap to quickly get underneath villagers who're SH slingshots or rockets. Yoshi has a heavy armor in his double jump which lasts for 1-69 frames I believe, you are able to knock him out of it if you do enough damage. Just know that he can quickly retaliate with a heavy armor'd Nair.

Egg toss is vital to keep up with villager's projectiles and tree wall. Seemingly, the stage control can go back and forth depending on how aggressive/defensive either player is. Slingshots are definitely annoying and can stop a lot of yoshi's approaches coupled with the rockets, but Yoshi can still get through pretty handily tossing eggs right back. With a confirmed hit from an egg toss, yoshi can easily follow up with a nair/fair or if egg toss is shielded, villager is in position to be command grabbed by egg lay.

Egg lay is one of yoshi's bread and butter moves that allows him to rack up more damage and setup for kills upon releasing from the egg with Usmash/Uair/Grounded yoshi bomb. It means that you'll have to keep on your toes and likely keep to the air to avoid the egg lay.

One of villager's strengths is definitely the ability to camp on the ledge as yoshi really can't do anything unless villager makes a mistake. At this point I just run to the other side of the stage to get him back on. If customs were on I would say this matchup would go to villager for the timber counter and exploding balloons for that camp game.

Villager can cover yoshi's approach from above handily with Usmash, but then you'd have to watch out for the B-reverse. Bowling ball/tree on the ledge is lethal as well if yoshi recovers low. Tree is just a great option to wall out yoshi and setup for those nasty sprouts/axe kills.

Overall, I think you guys may be underestimating yoshi in this matchup as he does have the tools to combat the projectile game, and close it out in the end.

 

[SoniCraft]

Yeah guys let's be careful to not underestimate any characters or give ourselves the confidence of a MU advantage when we don't actually have it. This could lead to us overestimating our character, so we won't practice against those more difficult MUs with the correct mentality, or worse, we may underestimate a person who plays a character like Yoshi, and then quickly find ourselves on the clapping side of the winner screen.

 

[cree318]

Overall, I think you guys may be underestimating yoshi in this matchup as he does have the tools to combat the projectile game, and close it out in the end.

Thanks for that write-up, and you're probably right about the MU. I haven't had a chance to play many Yoshi players aside from my main sparring partner, so I still feel like I'm not seeing all that Yoshi can do (or maybe I just know my partner's play style too well).

But speaking of the MU, I did notice that Yoshi's eggs are a great way for him to approach while Villy is slingshotting. If the eggs connect with the bullet they nullify the hit (idk if the egg explosion hitbox is still active though), while Yoshi's aerial momentum can allow him to keep approaching. And he has the benefit of using as many eggs as he wants while in the air, so he can easily keep up the pressure and come in with an aerial.

Side note: Just from my play style though, I will say that one of the easiest ways to get a kill (or at least score some extra damage) is by using the sprouting tree. That thing has a massive hitbox that lingers for a while and can disrupt Yoshi as he comes in for an aerial.

 

[Antonykun]

Great write-up, here are my feelings on these MUs


- His high airspeed sets him apart from other heavyweights, which makes him harder to sting together hits. This also allows him to come in with aerials, and if you're shielding, retreat to a safe distance.
- The super-armor he receives from his double jump protects him from being gimped by Villy and allows him to have a safe recovery. If you can get him to use his double jump early or hit him after the super-armor is over he becomes much more gimpable.
- A pocketed egg isn't great but it can be strung in after a dash attack or short hop dair.
- He can jab cancel into an upsmash so watch out for that.
- Although his airspeed allows him to close the gap, using Lloids are a great way to control the airspace as well as the ground game.
- IIRC he can ledge trump to Bair rather easily, which can lead to easy KOs depending on the stage.
- As with almost all MUs, make him recover low and snipe him with either a bowling ball or chopped tree.

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/632322479
video of my most recent Villy vs Yoshi set, match starts at 35:00

If I had to pick I'd say it's probably 60:40 Villager's favor but I think I need more practice against other Yoshi players to see what they can do.

Wait are you saying Villager WINS the matchup?
nonononono
Yoshi is a combo platter of everything Villager hates.
Fast moves, heavy weight, hard to edgeguard, great mobility, "good enough" projectiles.
By the time we have Lloyd out, Yoshi is already chasing after us in top speed or throwing an egg at us
Outside of being knocked off the ledge really far Yoshi has no reason (as far as I know) to recover low. He can just use his air speed and aerials/air dodge to cover his landing.
Literally the only saving grace Villager has to this MU is that Yoshi needs a hard read to actually KO... but guess what? So do we!
How this matchup is anything less than a clear 40:60 or worse is beyond me.