Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[Sonsa]

Hey, hey, I didn't underestimate him! XD I love Villager but yeah...this is a tough matchup. Weird that I think fighting Sonic is easier, but Yoshi's dash attack doesn't seem to have as much endlag, nair lasts way longer, Yoshi's air mobility is pretty much the best in the game (check out Smash Highlight's Air Mobility Tiers, Yoshi is #1 if not counting Jump Shulk), those eggs are good projectiles, and most importantly Super-Armored Double-Jump!

One of Villager's greatest strengths as a character is being able to go deep and push people off stages, edgeguard them, gimp them, just make sure they don't get back to the stage, but Yoshi just ignores this most times! Sure at higher percents where he needs to burn the jump and land on the ledge we could do something, but usually Yoshi's will recover high and shrug off slingshots, gyroids, nair, even turnips!

Yoshi certainly is frustrating and annoying to us... but with enough patience and spacing Villager does have the tools to potentially win. Just needs to stay around the ledge, on platforms above Yoshi I think, and bait him a lot. I'm ganna go ahead and say this is 40:60 in Villager's favor again. Yoshi is a force to be reckoned with in this game.

Really glad we got a lot of discussion on this though! Also, just wondering, what stages do you think are best for either character?

 

[AnchorTea]

I discovered something that helps the Rosalina MU.

If you jab Luma, he won't get any knockback. You can rack up damage in a very quick succcession on Luma.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'll maybe do a write up later, but just wanna say 1. Dunno who Bonz was but somebody linked a vid of him against gimr earlier and his Yoshi is....
Bleh.
So watching him vs the Villager main that posted it in the previous page, he's not very... gud.
2. It's not 60:40 but it honestly feels like it could either be 50:50 or 55:45 Yoshi favor.

Neither have kill set ups (which is the story for anyone not top tier) and they both camp to get chip damage on each other. Yoshi gets more reward from hit confirms than villager does and also has more weight on his side. He's vulnerable when tossing eggs, but not as vulnerable as Villager is when using rockets (is it llyod or lloid?), and when villager pops a tree up but isn't hiding behind it, it's fairly obvious he's trying to land a kill on us with his axe.

Dunno how you guys rank BC or even know him, but I beat him at TGC1 and he was the most stressful character to deal with but it still was mostly a solid win.

Random but wanna mention nair clanks with tree while falling, at least I had it happen two or so times before. Not saying it's reliable, just kinda funny.

 

[Regralht]

I could probably agree with it being 55:45 in Yoshi's favor.

Villager seems to crumble once Yoshi gets in close, other than Nair, Dair and probably a tilt or something, there isn't much he can do to stop Yoshi from tearing him apart. Neither character seems to really get walled out in neutral, so that should be pretty even there.

I honestly think that Yoshi's double jump armor is pretty overrated, Villager should be easily able to gimp Yoshi if he goes low (go for a footstool and then Dair if you miss, that covers air dodge). Yoshi can't really be challenged when recovering from up high, so watch out for a Yoshi Bomb ledge grab or wait for you chance to punish his landing. Edge guarding Villager can be hell (if they're smart with it, don't just brainlessly go straight for the ledge every time lol)... especially with his explosive up B custom.

Does Villager's Pushy Lloid break through Yoshi's double jump armor somewhat easily at low percent?

 

[Makai Wars]

This seems like one of those times where a few of us should settle it in Smash...

 

[Regralht]

I wouldn't mind fighting some of ya, I'm decent. Plus I have a capture card, if any of you want the match uploaded.

My NNID is Regralht
I'll be able to play tomorrow anytime after 4:00 PM EST if anyone is interested.

 

[AnchorTea]

So... Can we talk about Captain Falcon?

 

[Sonsa]

So... Can we talk about Captain Falcon?

We did a bit on page 14.
My thoughts are here: http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-14#post-18699791
Only thing is someone followed up saying FD and Omega stages arent that bad for Villager, gives Falcon less approach options, which is great cause he has a harder time getting past our walls anyway. I don't think anyone disagreed with my conclusion of 60:40 in Villager's favor.

 

[GSM_Dren]

I wouldn't mind fighting some of ya, I'm decent. Plus I have a capture card, if any of you want the match uploaded.

My NNID is Regralht
I'll be able to play tomorrow anytime after 4:00 PM EST if anyone is interested.

I'm also down to play with ya villagers as well for a couple hours.

 

[Antonykun]

We did a bit on page 14.
My thoughts are here: http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-14#post-18699791
Only thing is someone followed up saying FD and Omega stages arent that bad for Villager, gives Falcon less approach options, which is great cause he has a harder time getting past our walls anyway. I don't think anyone disagreed with my conclusion of 60:40 in Villager's favor.

I have a feeling that once Falcons get better in neutral the MU will be closer to even.
Falcons neutral is cray cray with that god tiered dash and fall speed.
But fo now clear advantage cuz Falcons disadvantage is that bad.

 

[Player-1]

falcon beats villager probably between 55-45 to 60-40

 

[MJG]

I really don't think it's 60:40. I know you play with a good falcon down in GA and I've had my share of Falcon play as well. Just have to anticipate falcons speed really but it's not nearly as tedious as sheik. I watched you play it and falcon mostly capitalized on openings rather than using speed to get past walls (or to take us across the stage as he grabs and takes us past lloid).

EDIT: I agree with Falcon beating villager...for now
EDIT2: My view on MU ratios may be skewed too. I haven't looked at MUs that way in awhile though. Just aware of what strengths and weaknesses I have in said MU.

 

[Antonykun]

falcon beats villager probably between 55-45 to 60-40

please explain lord player 1 as I believe that right now n-air beats dashes and Falcon's disadvantage is laughably bad

 

[Player-1]

I really don't think it's 60:40. I know you play with a good falcon down in GA and I've had my share of Falcon play as well. Just have to anticipate falcons speed really but it's not nearly as tedious as sheik. I watched you play it and falcon mostly capitalized on openings rather than using speed to get past walls (or to take us across the stage as he grabs and takes us past lloid).

EDIT: I agree with Falcon beating villager...for now
EDIT2: My view on MU ratios may be skewed too. I haven't looked at MUs that way in awhile though. Just aware of what strengths and weaknesses I have in said MU.

For reference, he MMed zinoto's villager too at apex and Zinoto couldn't take any games and something along the lines of it's impossible or a really bad MU or something

please explain lord player 1 as I believe that right now n-air beats dashes and Falcon's disadvantage is laughably bad

falcon dashes, you nair, he shields, then what? If you double nair and he holds shield I think he can dash grab you since there's not much shield stun in this game especially not from villager's nair and falcon's dash grab is like the best in the game. If you jump away then you get setup into uair juggles. Getting out lloid's in the MU can be hard because of Falcon's amazing dash grab. The only thing we have in this MU is edgeguarding

 

[Sonsa]

Whaaat? Well first off the off-stage game, Villager wins for sure, we can all agree on that, right?

On-stage, sure, you definitely want to stay near ledges to push him off-stage with a back-air or something when you get the chance. He can't really force you to the center of the stage. When in that space though, down-air turnips covers a lot of approaches and lasts a while. He shields? Okay you retreat or go right over him, maybe try again with a double-jump, still shielding, okay, well you should be a good space away so spot-dodge or anything else any other character faces in that situation. All characters can potentially fail an approach, doesnt mean they lose! Sure, Falcon's got a super fast dash grab, but it can be predictable so try to react quick, Villager has very low cool-down.

Falcon is a good character, but I do not think he has an advantage over us, we have too many tools that stop his momentum, keep him from getting in, and keep him off-stage. His recovery is also predictable, has noticeable start-up, and a small hitbox that will never go through turnips. I still think we have the advantage, 55:45 in our favor at least.

 

[Player-1]

Whaaat? Well first off the off-stage game, Villager wins for sure, we can all agree on that, right?

On-stage, sure, you definitely want to stay near ledges to push him off-stage with a back-air or something when you get the chance. He can't really force you to the center of the stage. When in that space though, down-air turnips covers a lot of approaches and lasts a while. He shields? Okay you retreat or go right over him, maybe try again with a double-jump, still shielding, okay, well you should be a good space away so spot-dodge or anything else any other character faces in that situation. All characters can potentially fail an approach, doesnt mean they lose! Sure, Falcon's got a super fast dash grab, but it can be predictable so try to react quick, Villager has very low cool-down.

Falcon is a good character, but I do not think he has an advantage over us, we have too many tools that stop his momentum, keep him from getting in, and keep him off-stage. His recovery is also predictable, has noticeable start-up, and a small hitbox that will never go through turnips. I still think we have the advantage, 55:45 in our favor at least.

no you don't want to stay near the edges, but falcon forces you there anyway, most characters force villager to the edge. Most MUs you don't want to be near the edge ever, you're just cornering yourself and limiting your options. Villager is a character that gets forced to the edge easily though, one of his weaknesses. Retreating nair/dairs or going over him he'll just dash at you and cover that space anyway, Falcon is fast and his uair is amazing for juggles. He's a fast, hard hitting character. Villager does not have very low cool down, he has high cool down on most moves that aren't nair. Villager basically loses for the same reason he loses to most rush down chars.

 

[Sonsa]

no you don't want to stay near the edges, but falcon forces you there anyway, most characters force villager to the edge. Most MUs you don't want to be near the edge ever, you're just cornering yourself and limiting your options. Villager is a character that gets forced to the edge easily though, one of his weaknesses. Retreating nair/dairs or going over him he'll just dash at you and cover that space anyway, Falcon is fast and his uair is amazing for juggles. He's a fast, hard hitting character. Villager does not have very low cool down, he has high cool down on most moves that aren't nair. Villager basically loses for the same reason he loses to most rush down chars.

Limits your options? I dunno, Im not saying you should be ON the ledge, just near. Cause even off-stage you have much better options. Watch out for Falcon's spikes, but otherwise he can't go that deep to finish you off. Villager's cool down isn't really that bad, punishable, but only if you really commit to something kinda dumb.

I think you're underestimating Villager here? Neutral is a challenge, sure, but Villager can be patient, careful, and handle it. Off-stage he dominates Falcon. Up-air can be a problem from Falcon, so definitely head to Smashville or FD and Omega stages to limit his approach options.

 

[Player-1]

yes it limit your options, if you're off stage and falcon is on stage then that's a terrible position. Falcon's bair can kill pretty early especially near the balst zone. Villager's cool down is bad. I'm not underestiming villager, villager just isn't a good char.

A MU where we only win off stage is not a winning MU.

 

[Sonsa]

yes it limit your options, if you're off stage and falcon is on stage then that's a terrible position. Falcon's bair can kill pretty early especially near the balst zone. Villager's cool down is bad. I'm not underestiming villager, villager just isn't a good char.

A MU where we only win off stage is not a winning MU.

Well yeah, but Falcon needs to commit to that. You can give him a gyroid, see what he's ganna do, if he commits to something you can go around, recover high, if he's waiting and wants to hit you low, you space out your B-mashing, and go, you have way more options than the other way around. If he comes down super early you can even slingshot to down-air turnips him and kill him as you recover. Even footstooling is a great option.
It really isn't? We can't just go back and forth yes it is no its not, here's the best evidence I can find in numbers http://smashboards.com/threads/blat...-hitbox-frame-data-and-other-research.368614/ You can see that active frames are pretty much all the frames, the endlag is usually maybe 6 frames on most attacks you want to approach/defend yourself with.
Another thing, you really don't need to approach, Falcon is forced to come to you and attempt to get past your walls.
Villager isn't a good character? He's A-Tier at least, what happened?
That's true, but he dominates off-stage and it's pretty much even on stage, so? I still think Villager's got a leg-up here.

 

[Player-1]

Well yeah, but Falcon needs to commit to that. You can give him a gyroid, see what he's ganna do, if he commits to something you can go around, recover high, if he's waiting and wants to hit you low, you space out your B-mashing, and go, you have way more options than the other way around. If he comes down super early you can even slingshot to down-air turnips him and kill him as you recover. Even footstooling is a great option.
It really isn't? We can't just go back and forth yes it is no its not, here's the best evidence I can find in numbers http://smashboards.com/threads/blat...-hitbox-frame-data-and-other-research.368614/ You can see that active frames are pretty much all the frames, the endlag is usually maybe 6 frames on most attacks you want to approach/defend yourself with.
Another thing, you really don't need to approach, Falcon is forced to come to you and attempt to get past your walls.
Villager isn't a good character? He's A-Tier at least, what happened?
That's true, but he dominates off-stage and it's pretty much even on stage, so? I still think Villager's got a leg-up here.

Villager's recovery is slow, falcon has more than enough time to jump out throw out a rising bair, get back to the edge and strt to cover your landing if you recover high.

That thread doesn't tell us when the moves ends so that does nothing, I have no idea where you're getting this 6 frame end lag stuff. Long lasting hitboxes aren't always the best either since an opponent has plenty of time to come and shield during the later ends of the active frames and then punish you.

Villager is at best c tier, he's not good (assuming customs off)

He dominates falcon being edgeguarded, he is still prone to being edgeguarded and falcon wins solidly on stage.

 

[Sonsa]

Villager's recovery is slow, falcon has more than enough time to jump out throw out a rising bair, get back to the edge and strt to cover your landing if you recover high.

That thread doesn't tell us when the moves ends so that does nothing, I have no idea where you're getting this 6 frame end lag stuff. Long lasting hitboxes aren't always the best either since an opponent has plenty of time to come and shield during the later ends of the active frames and then punish you.

Villager is at best c tier, he's not good (assuming customs off)

He dominates falcon being edgeguarded, he is still prone to being edgeguarded and falcon wins solidly on stage.

A rising bair? Why would Villager recover high like that against Falcon when they could get knee'd too? And without a gyroid to cover that option from Falcon? Slingshots can stop his aerials too.
You talking about him going down, double jump while back air stage spike and get on the ledge? A good option, cover it with gyroid, be creative with your up-b, tech, you certainly aren't helpless.
Where it says active frames, it was the best I could find sorry, but if you look at the game he's got significantly less endlag on mostly all his moves then the rest of the cast, just his grab is a huge mistake to throw around.
Yes, I am talking about customs off and no way! So many people including me disagree, you used Villager in tourneys right? What happened?
An inexperienced Villager against a good Falcon won't have an easy time sure, but just looking at the character's tools, Villager wins. Falcon has plenty of endlag on side-b, down-b, landing knee, landing down-air, all moves Falcon wants to use to get in, punish rolls, and kill require commitment that Villager can patiently avoid and take advantage of. He's fast and hits hard but it comes at a price.

 

[SoniCraft]

A rising bair? Why would Villager recover high like that against Falcon when they could get knee'd too? And without a gyroid to cover that option from Falcon? Slingshots can stop his aerials too.
You talking about him going down, double jump while back air stage spike and get on the ledge? A good option, cover it with gyroid, be creative with your up-b, tech, you certainly aren't helpless.
Where it says active frames, it was the best I could find sorry, but if you look at the game he's got significantly less endlag on mostly all his moves then the rest of the cast, just his grab is a huge mistake to throw around.
Yes, I am talking about customs off and no way! So many people including me disagree, you used Villager in tourneys right? What happened?
An inexperienced Villager against a good Falcon won't have an easy time sure, but just looking at the character's tools, Villager wins. Falcon has plenty of endlag on side-b, down-b, landing knee, landing down-air, all moves Falcon wants to use to get in, punish rolls, and kill require commitment that Villager can patiently avoid and take advantage of. He's fast and hits hard but it comes at a price.

Falcon may have endlag on those moves, but one thing he doesn't have much endlag on, and is super duper good, is his dash grab, which is really what he's going to use most of the time to get something going. I think Player 1's on to something about our endlag frames being not that great compared to Falcon's speed. If he shields a move like, say bair, he has the speed to run out of it and grab us while we're still landing. Worse yet, if the Falcon just runs up and shields while we're falling(think closer to the ground, not high up), we can't really do anything to avoid getting grabbed.

I was playing a fairly decent Falcon on For Glory once, and it left me rethinking our supposed advantage in the MU. In the earlier days when people had no idea how to fight Villager, we just had a grand time spamming slingshots and Falcon panicking with some dumb committal move that led to us punishing hard. Now, Falcons know to play more patient because they can close the gap between us and them super quickly if they just wait for the right moment. Of course Villager will wreck Falcon if he's edgeguarding him, but Falcon doesn't have a bad time edgeguarding us either.

I'm sorry to say, but I think for now we should give the slight advantage to Falcon. 55:45

As for Villager's position on the tier list, I think B tier's a good home, a similar spot to where ZSS was in Brawl, and with customs on, easily A tier.

 

[Player-1]

A rising bair? Why would Villager recover high like that against Falcon when they could get knee'd too? And without a gyroid to cover that option from Falcon? Slingshots can stop his aerials too.
You talking about him going down, double jump while back air stage spike and get on the ledge? A good option, cover it with gyroid, be creative with your up-b, tech, you certainly aren't helpless.
Where it says active frames, it was the best I could find sorry, but if you look at the game he's got significantly less endlag on mostly all his moves then the rest of the cast, just his grab is a huge mistake to throw around.
Yes, I am talking about customs off and no way! So many people including me disagree, you used Villager in tourneys right? What happened?
An inexperienced Villager against a good Falcon won't have an easy time sure, but just looking at the character's tools, Villager wins. Falcon has plenty of endlag on side-b, down-b, landing knee, landing down-air, all moves Falcon wants to use to get in, punish rolls, and kill require commitment that Villager can patiently avoid and take advantage of. He's fast and hits hard but it comes at a price.

You're the one that said to recover high, not me, but yes sometimes you have to recover high.

Well yeah, but Falcon needs to commit to that. You can give him a gyroid, see what he's ganna do, if he commits to something you can go around, recover high,

IDK what you're talking about with lloid rocket, I'm talking about once Villager has entered up-b he doesn't have a lot of options, he pretty much has to tech the stage which is just free damage. Also, villager's slingshot is not transcendent. Opponents can totally throw out hitboxes to clank with it and still hit you.

Active frames=/= end lag, active frames are the frames the hitbox is out. It can have 2 active frames and 60 frames of lag, it can have 60 frames active frames and 60 frames of end lag.

Most higher level villagers agree that he's not very good. You can see a discussion here.
http://smashboards.com/threads/i-have-an-erie-feeling-that-villager-will-be-nerfed-badly.391192/

I'd say I'm an experienced Villager and I play against one of the best falcons petty consistently. Falcon's side-b, down-b, landing knee, and landing dair are not good moves in general, he's not just going to throw them out there hoping they're going to hit. Falcon gets in by having such a threatening dash grab and ground speed. If you whiff a move, Falcon can punish you from a long distance away because his run speed is good and he gets hard punishes. But sometimes you also have to throw out your moves as threats from his running in anyway, it's not the easiest thing to react to. Falcon gets kills off of grabs and getting you in the air and trapping you. Villager gets trapped in the air pretty easily due to his sub-par air speed. Throwing out uairs and bairs is not much of a commitment when you're in the air. Falcon's neutral game is literally all based around his ground speed + dash grab and the threat of it. Villager's neutral game is primarily based on lloid rocket. Unfortunately, lloid's hitbox is not until frame 53. The lloid itself is out on frame 1 and takes 12 damage to explode which is outside the range of most moves that an opponent would want to approach with. Not only does falcon slide when he dash grabs someone, but throws are invincible in this game so even if the dash grab doesn't slide away from the lloid after you pull one out he can just throw you and lloid will just blow up without anything happening to him. So basically any time you try to pull out a lloid in neutral you run the risk of falcon getting in on you and punishing you hard. The reason lloid is so good for villager is because bair and fair aren't exactly safe. Fair has more end lag than bair and has less knockback and shield stun so basically your fairs have to be like perfectly spaced to keep someone out which isn't viable since it takes time to jump and fair and then land back down which gives an opponent plenty of time to adjust their spacing. Bair has the same problems but to a lesser extent since it has less end lag and more knockback and shield stun (if you manage to get a landing bair off up close, but no so close they can grab you or anything like that then it's pretty safe since slingshot is more powerful the closer you are), the problem with bair though is if the opponent does get next to you your facing away from your opponent meaning our jab, one of our best close quarter combat moves, is not an option anymore, and neither is our sub-par grab).

I still use Villager in tournaments, but I primarily play Diddy since he's better character (If you didn't know I was considered a very high level diddy player in brawl, so it's not just me bandwagoning btw, at the beginning I said I was going to main Diddy/Villager).
You can see a tournament set vs our Falcon in GA here to see some of the stuff I'm talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKnTBRDUjiw

I could have won and I did do things wrong and had missed opportunities, but the same can be said on the other side to. I've beaten him in tournament before with Villager and even then I was saying it's Falcon's favor, I think he thought it was even until we sat down and played a lot of friendlies and then agreed it's falcon's favor. I think he thinks it's 60-40, I thought it was 55-45 so I just say in between 6-4 and 55-45.

 

[Sonsa]

Falcon may have endlag on those moves, but one thing he doesn't have much endlag on, and is super duper good, is his dash grab, which is really what he's going to use most of the time to get something going. I think Player 1's on to something about our endlag frames being not that great compared to Falcon's speed. If he shields a move like, say bair, he has the speed to run out of it and grab us while we're still landing. Worse yet, if the Falcon just runs up and shields while we're falling(think closer to the ground, not high up), we can't really do anything to avoid getting grabbed.

I was playing a fairly decent Falcon on For Glory once, and it left me rethinking our supposed advantage in the MU. In the earlier days when people had no idea how to fight Villager, we just had a grand time spamming slingshots and Falcon panicking with some dumb committal move that led to us punishing hard. Now, Falcons know to play more patient because they can close the gap between us and them super quickly if they just wait for the right moment. Of course Villager will wreck Falcon if he's edgeguarding him, but Falcon doesn't have a bad time edgeguarding us either.

I'm sorry to say, but I think for now we should give the slight advantage to Falcon. 55:45

As for Villager's position on the tier list, I think B tier's a good home, a similar spot to where ZSS was in Brawl, and with customs on, easily A tier.

Maybe I'm underestimating Falcon, but...I just can't agree to this being in Falcon's advantage. He's got a great neutral sure, but that's not where you want to be, you want to be near a ledge with a wall. So he has to approach and you're ready for it. He can wait for the tree to end, yeah, but we shoot gyroids, he shield or jumps, we slingshot... I dunno. Maybe it's even.

You're the one that said to recover high, not me, but yes sometimes you have to recover high.

IDK what you're talking about with lloid rocket, I'm talking about once Villager has entered up-b he doesn't have a lot of options, he pretty much has to tech the stage which is just free damage. Also, villager's slingshot is not transcendent. Opponents can totally throw out hitboxes to clank with it and still hit you.

Active frames=/= end lag, active frames are the frames the hitbox is out. It can have 2 active frames and 60 frames of lag, it can have 60 frames active frames and 60 frames of end lag.

Most higher level villagers agree that he's not very good. You can see a discussion here.
http://smashboards.com/threads/i-have-an-erie-feeling-that-villager-will-be-nerfed-badly.391192/

I'd say I'm an experienced Villager and I play against one of the best falcons petty consistently. Falcon's side-b, down-b, landing knee, and landing dair are not good moves in general, he's not just going to throw them out there hoping they're going to hit. Falcon gets in by having such a threatening dash grab and ground speed. If you whiff a move, Falcon can punish you from a long distance away because his run speed is good and he gets hard punishes. But sometimes you also have to throw out your moves as threats from his running in anyway, it's not the easiest thing to react to. Falcon gets kills off of grabs and getting you in the air and trapping you. Villager gets trapped in the air pretty easily due to his sub-par air speed. Throwing out uairs and bairs is not much of a commitment when you're in the air. Falcon's neutral game is literally all based around his ground speed + dash grab and the threat of it. Villager's neutral game is primarily based on lloid rocket. Unfortunately, lloid's hitbox is not until frame 53. The lloid itself is out on frame 1 and takes 12 damage to explode which is outside the range of most moves that an opponent would want to approach with. Not only does falcon slide when he dash grabs someone, but throws are invincible in this game so even if the dash grab doesn't slide away from the lloid after you pull one out he can just throw you and lloid will just blow up without anything happening to him. So basically any time you try to pull out a lloid in neutral you run the risk of falcon getting in on you and punishing you hard. The reason lloid is so good for villager is because bair and fair aren't exactly safe. Fair has more end lag than bair and has less knockback and shield stun so basically your fairs have to be like perfectly spaced to keep someone out which isn't viable since it takes time to jump and fair and then land back down which gives an opponent plenty of time to adjust their spacing. Bair has the same problems but to a lesser extent since it has less end lag and more knockback and shield stun (if you manage to get a landing bair off up close, but no so close they can grab you or anything like that then it's pretty safe since slingshot is more powerful the closer you are), the problem with bair though is if the opponent does get next to you your facing away from your opponent meaning our jab, one of our best close quarter combat moves, is not an option anymore, and neither is our sub-par grab).

I still use Villager in tournaments, but I primarily play Diddy since he's better character (If you didn't know I was considered a very high level diddy player in brawl, so it's not just me bandwagoning btw, at the beginning I said I was going to main Diddy/Villager).
You can see a tournament set vs our Falcon in GA here to see some of the stuff I'm talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKnTBRDUjiw

I could have won and I did do things wrong and had missed opportunities, but the same can be said on the other side to. I've beaten him in tournament before with Villager and even then I was saying it's Falcon's favor, I think he thought it was even until we sat down and played a lot of friendlies and then agreed it's falcon's favor. I think he thinks it's 60-40, I thought it was 55-45 so I just say in between 6-4 and 55-45.

I said to recover high after Falcon has already committed to something. I'm saying when you're launched away and need to recover, you cancel that momentum by sending a gyroid near the ledge. Then you have a double jump to be creative, see what Falcon does, and finally up-b.

I know what active frames are, that's the best data I could find. I guess I misinterperented another collumn for total frames, sorry.
Yeah, I'm actually part of that discussion, and as I recall some are saying yes nerf, some are saying no he needs buffs, but most are saying he's fine as is?
Well you have more experience so I can't really say much. Pshhh, alright, I guess I'll agree to 45:55 in Villager's favor. I probably just haven't played an optimal one yet.

 

[warionumbah2]

Have you guys touched upon the MK MU yet? If so I'd like to hear your opinions on it.

@ Antonykun

 

[Antonykun]

Have you guys touched upon the MK MU yet? If so I'd like to hear your opinions on it.

@ Antonykun

Ehhhh...I try to not talk about that MU because I know very little of high level MK play other than what you and a few others say.
Like I can theorycraft a bit but I'll need your help.
Here's some things i know:

• Edguarding Mk will (almost) never happen, don't risk it unless you know you could kill if you pull it off
• Edguarding Villager can be done in Mk's sleep
  
• MK and Villager have roughly the same non-projectile range but MK's normals are all disjointed
  
• MK has some annoyingly good landing options with DC but Villager's d-air is pretty good?
• MK kills earlier but it has to be from a punish just like Villy

That's all I got i have no idea how badly Villy loses (but i think she loses, I thought she loses to pika but turns out its about even)

 

[warionumbah2]

Ehhhh...I try to not talk about that MU because I know very little of high level MK play other than what you and a few others say.
Like I can theorycraft a bit but I'll need your help.
Here's some things i know:

• Edguarding Mk will (almost) never happen, don't risk it unless you know you could kill if you pull it off
• Edguarding Villager can be done in Mk's sleep
  
• MK and Villager have roughly the same non-projectile range but MK's normals are all disjointed
  
• MK has some annoyingly good landing options with DC but Villager's d-air is pretty good?
• MK kills earlier but it has to be from a punish just like Villy

That's all I got i have no idea how badly Villy loses (but i think she loses, I thought she loses to pika but turns out its about even)

Villagers Dair is very good, MKs U-Smash and Utilt beat it though so you may as well not challenge it. MK has hit confirms to aid his kills unlike Pika....thats it you're right about everything else. (o_o ')

 

[FirestormNeos]

So are there any hard counters for this guy?

I swear I keep running into this ***** every other match at my scene.

 

[Antonykun]

Villagers Dair is very good, MKs U-Smash and Utilt beat it though so you may as well not challenge it. MK has hit confirms to aid his kills unlike Pika....thats it you're right about everything else. (o_o ')

Some more things i was thinking about the two:

• Villager can b-reverse pocket for a safe landing but it's just a mixup rather than guaranteed.
  
• Air to air Villager loses if MK f-airs and there's no reason for him not to f-air though Villager can use Lloyd to help but then MK uses his sexy dash.
• A good MK that knows the MU will never get hit by a bowling ball offstage
• D-tilt outranges everything MK has on the ground
• 1-2 Jabs stop his dashes

 

[SoniCraft]

But will he get hit by nairs or dairs offstage?

 

[HowaitoKumaSan]

So I got 2nd place in my region's wifi weekly after getting hilariously stomped on by the Ness player who usually takes 1st. Was wondering if there were any pointers/suggestions that could be had from the footage that was recorded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ec6i7bVnsI

Trying to git gud for EVO and possibly NCR, so any sort of advice would be welcomed.

 

[Sonsa]

So I got 2nd place in my region's wifi weekly after getting hilariously stomped on by the Ness player who usually takes 1st. Was wondering if there were any pointers/suggestions that could be had from the footage that was recorded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ec6i7bVnsI

Trying to git gud for EVO and possibly NCR, so any sort of advice would be welcomed.

My thoughts on Villager vs Ness are here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-15#post-18714581
I also recently fought a good Ness in an online tourney and landed two forward air slingshots from the middle of the stage into pocketing Ness' recovery. Fun stuff. Just pocketing his recovery when he has to like you did multiple times is great too!
As for pointers from watching your match:
-I'd avoid going for grabs unless their outta shield punishes or you predict he'll stay shielding a gyroid.
-Also about gyroids, you'd rather launch em slightly in the air. That way Ness can't reflect them and he can't approach you with his nice forward air.
-Also! About reflecting - you can bait them. I see you throw a gyroid and jump when Ness reflects it. You can go over and down-air.
-The stages you went to are kinda iffy for the matchup I think too. Duck Hunt can be good against some opponents, but back-throw from Ness will kill even earlier and the ducks get in the way of slingshots sometimes, while it seems PK Thunder went through just fine. I'd prefer battlefield and maybe smashville. Lylat was also a good choice.
-I might be being dumb again, but the thing that seems to have caused you most trouble is Ness' up-air. Your opponent seemed to like PK Fire and PK Thundering you into the air so he could use it more. Next time you fight him I'd try to stay grounded more, especially when he's close. Have a gyroid launched in the air to make him come to you grounded. Shouldnt be a problem with that Timber Counter sprout.
-Speaking of which, if youre ganna use that, you want it out whenever you have a moment to breath and you wanna stick around it more. Ness kinda has to come to you. He can try and hit you from afar with his PK attacks, but they have some endlag and you have pocket. He wants to get you, especially this one seemed kinda rushdowney.
Good luck!

I also just wanted to let y'all know in regards to the Villager vs Sheik matchup, I fought a great Sheik and it died at 35% thanks to me landing a tricky tree. Some wont rushdown as hard and will wait for it to disappear, but we were on Omega Battlefield, so not as many platforms to run to. I dunno, just thought it would be nice to share and keep in mind.

 

[cree318]

So I got 2nd place in my region's wifi weekly after getting hilariously stomped on by the Ness player who usually takes 1st. Was wondering if there were any pointers/suggestions that could be had from the footage that was recorded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ec6i7bVnsI

Trying to git gud for EVO and possibly NCR, so any sort of advice would be welcomed.

You played pretty well, although it seemed like you weren't as fluid with Villy as you could be (granted this was on wifi so it could just be due to some lag). The one thing I would point out is you didn't really try to use the sprouting tree as an attack. Although counter tree's attack power is much weaker than normal timber it is still a viable option as the hitbox is huge and lasts a long time.
Don't be afraid to repocket a reflected projectile. Although chances are that you won't get a hit with it, it's a great way to force the opponent to act around it due to it being much more powerful after the reflection and pocket.

I also wrote a bit on the MU too, which can be found here: http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-15#post-18717546

 

[RAzul]

Can someone please link me to or break down the D3 MU. I played a pretty darn good one today and just couldn't figure **** out really. After about 20 matches, I was getting more used to the patterns and slowing down but I really need assistance guys. I felt like a terrible player after and like I was a complete nub. this clearly isn't the case as I've picked Villager from the Demo day 1 and grown immensely but I've never had this problem before. Granted (and not to John here) but all of these games were on FG so all omega and there were significantly effective lag spikes on inputs I try to register which simply did not (we've all been there). So, ideally, I'd pick BF or some other stage than just all flat. My main issues were the Gordos (though I do know how to manage them a bit) and respecting him mid space. He has retardedly deceptive range. D3 kills too damn early if you're not careful and near the edge. Please though, any help would be greatly appreciated. I really felt down after losing so mch today. Thanks in advanced.

 

[Makai Wars]

Can someone please link me to or break down the D3 MU.

I've only played one really decent D3 so don't regard my post as fact-- The D3 MU is where Villager's zoning game really has to shine, otherwise you're going to get bopped over the head by D3's silly range. Short hop approaching fairs/bairs , retreating fairs, Gyroid into fair or dash attack to nair, it's all about those pellets. They can also send a Gordo but when you're faced with those, it's best to retreat before using pocket so if you flub it, you're still at a safe enough distance to put up your shield or dodge or whatever. When RELEASING a gordo, be safe, I like to chuck it at his shield for that pressure, or when he's recovering, then follow up with a tree or nair to edgegaurd.
The thing is, if you Pocket a Gordo, they WILL be anticipating it, if you throw it with distance between you two it WILL get reflected and you'll die and look like a massive tool, point blank is the way to go with a gordo, especially since you don't suffer from lag like D3 does.
Also a gordo v pocket gordo will not work in your favor, don't try that.

One thing to be wary of is D3's Down Smash, I like to approach with a shorthop Dair (well fullhop in this MU) just to stay safe from that and potential grab set ups. Your own down smash is good since D3 is so big, cover yourself with Gyroids, ect ect.

Also, FG was probably why you got bodied, I feel battlefield/Smashville is a much better stage for Villy here since he has more room to bounce around and throw out that forward air nonsense

We should invite some D3's in here to train against, I actually don't think I've ever seen a good one in FG, could D3 be a rarer main than Villager?

 

[SoniCraft]

I think it's highly likely that there are more good villagers than good D3s.

 

[MJG]

My thoughts on Villager vs Ness are here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-15#post-18714581
I also recently fought a good Ness in an online tourney and landed two forward air slingshots from the middle of the stage into pocketing Ness' recovery. Fun stuff. Just pocketing his recovery when he has to like you did multiple times is great too!
As for pointers from watching your match:
-I'd avoid going for grabs unless their outta shield punishes or you predict he'll stay shielding a gyroid.
-Also about gyroids, you'd rather launch em slightly in the air. That way Ness can't reflect them and he can't approach you with his nice forward air.
-Also! About reflecting - you can bait them. I see you throw a gyroid and jump when Ness reflects it. You can go over and down-air.
-The stages you went to are kinda iffy for the matchup I think too. Duck Hunt can be good against some opponents, but back-throw from Ness will kill even earlier and the ducks get in the way of slingshots sometimes, while it seems PK Thunder went through just fine. I'd prefer battlefield and maybe smashville. Lylat was also a good choice.
-I might be being dumb again, but the thing that seems to have caused you most trouble is Ness' up-air. Your opponent seemed to like PK Fire and PK Thundering you into the air so he could use it more. Next time you fight him I'd try to stay grounded more, especially when he's close. Have a gyroid launched in the air to make him come to you grounded. Shouldnt be a problem with that Timber Counter sprout.
-Speaking of which, if youre ganna use that, you want it out whenever you have a moment to breath and you wanna stick around it more. Ness kinda has to come to you. He can try and hit you from afar with his PK attacks, but they have some endlag and you have pocket. He wants to get you, especially this one seemed kinda rushdowney.
Good luck!

I also just wanted to let y'all know in regards to the Villager vs Sheik matchup, I fought a great Sheik and it died at 35% thanks to me landing a tricky tree. Some wont rushdown as hard and will wait for it to disappear, but we were on Omega Battlefield, so not as many platforms to run to. I dunno, just thought it would be nice to share and keep in mind.

Sheik died at 35?! That's incredible. I also liked the tid-bit about firing lloid off the ground so that ness cannot only reflect it back at us but it limits where he shines best, which. I'll probably be playing a ness in tourney this weekend, so I'll touch more on the MU later but it looks like it's been covered pretty well so far. The last time I fought a ness, I ended up reverting to a pure defensive game until I took the stock lead, which almost seems backwards but I did that to counter any sudden approaches since they obviously need to take my first stock and carry on. I went back to being defensive once I was prone to dying from back throw though.

 

[Sonsa]

Sheik died at 35?! That's incredible. I also liked the tid-bit about firing lloid off the ground so that ness cannot only reflect it back at us but it limits where he shines best, which. I'll probably be playing a ness in tourney this weekend, so I'll touch more on the MU later but it looks like it's been covered pretty well so far. The last time I fought a ness, I ended up reverting to a pure defensive game until I took the stock lead, which almost seems backwards but I did that to counter any sudden approaches since they obviously need to take my first stock and carry on. I went back to being defensive once I was prone to dying from back throw though.

Yup! I saved it on a replay so I can try to show you if you'd like, pretty interesting stuff, maybe we need to play her on FD and omegas so we can wall better while giving her less places to hide/maneuver?

Yeah, the Ness matchup is kinda scary. Ness is scary in this one overall, I played him in the past, but here he seems a bit faster. But in a set I had with a good one a week ago or so, with that kill throw you have to play defensive, slingshots, gyroids, keep him away! Bair can kill nicely if you rack up enough damage (120-130%ish?) and just getting him off the stage, reading and punishing what he does with double jump and pocketing PK thunder is key in this matchup. Also if you want to pocket a PK Fire, most people try to destroy trees with them so yknow, hide behind one just a sec and if they keep going (they try to kill it similar to Megaman's crash bombs and such) PK fire can be punished by down-air turnips a lot, you might get lucky and kill if you get 3!

 

[zeezee]

The Megaman struggles are very real...I'd like some different perspectives on this, how do you guys usually try to deal with his pellets?

 

[Sonsa]

The Megaman struggles are very real...I'd like some different perspectives on this, how do you guys usually try to deal with his pellets?

My thoughts and other peoples' great thoughts are around here.
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-13#post-18670652
I really don't know where you want to be against Megaman. I mean, you want to approach diagonally I imagine, but Villager's moves are a lot more linear, usually only vertical or horizontal, so getting in is tougher than it is for other characters. I say getting in because if you don't or try to hide behind your tree, crash bomb metal blade crash bomb metal blade crash bomb metal blade etc... They're not really worth pocketing either. If only pocketing metal blade had the same effect as pocketing Diddy's banana or Rob's gyroid had...
I'm sorry but I think I'd recommend a counter-pick or just a reliable secondary against MM, this matchup is... arguably the worst Villager has.