Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[Sonsa]

Default only

Well alright. Down the line we aughta have a matchup thread specifically for customs though. Whole different meta and all.

 

[Disgaea D2]

Has anyone talked about Villager v G&W MU?(I use both and I'm curious who's better)

 

[Sonsa]

Has anyone talked about Villager v G&W MU?(I use both and I'm curious who's better)

I'd love to, its actually a pretty interesting matchup each time I play it, but since we're getting a balance patch on the 15th I'd rather wait until after that.

 

[Antonykun]

Has anyone talked about Villager v G&W MU?(I use both and I'm curious who's better)

@ Kofu

 

[Kofu]

@ Kofu

I think it's in Villager's favor, but not by much. Game & Watch has high-priority aerials that beat out slingshots and outrange Villager, is very difficult to gimp, can bucket exploding balloons (and Lloids if you're throwing them out recklessly), and has a good grab game. I think that Villager just has slightly better tools for the MU as Game & Watch generally struggles with characters with solid projectiles.

 

[AnchorTea]

Well alright. Down the line we aughta have a matchup thread specifically for customs though. Whole different meta and all.

@ Indigo Jeans

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I've given serious to thought about that. The Customs Meta Matchup Thread will happen some time after EVO, around the time Lucas is released probably (since he is the last character to be added for the foreseeable future). For the time being though feel free to discuss customs MUs in here.

 

[Sonsa]

I've given serious to thought about that. The Customs Meta Matchup Thread will happen some time after EVO, around the time Lucas is released probably (since he is the last character to be added for the foreseeable future). For the time being though feel free to discuss customs MUs in here.

Cool, sounds dandy! And uh... what's the status on a matchup chart for this thread? Every few pages people ask about Sheik and a few others again, a matchup chart would really help out newcomers and help organize our results. The Lucina Matchup thread is a gorgeous role-model for MU threads with links to notable discussions, it seems tough but um...how close are we to getting our own chart and links?

 

[Disgaea D2]

I think it's in Villager's favor, but not by much. Game & Watch has high-priority aerials that beat out slingshots and outrange Villager, is very difficult to gimp, can bucket exploding balloons (and Lloids if you're throwing them out recklessly), and has a good grab game. I think that Villager just has slightly better tools for the MU as Game & Watch generally struggles with characters with solid projectiles.

True with the MU in Villager 's favor since Villager has stage control with custom tree and G&W has unsafe approaches and has some difficulty with campy characters.

 

[Linkdude74]

How does one deal with the Rosalina and Luma match up? I have so many problems with it and maybe it's just me but it seems 70/30 in her favor

 

[Locke 06]

I have come to pillage your village.

Joking. Mega man boards are discussing the villager MU until Tuesday. Would be great to get your inputs to help dissect the MU.

http://smashboards.com/threads/zero...-thread-villager.371407/page-15#post-18895779

If you would indulge me, I'd prefer you wait until some of the MM's give their input before giving your side of the MU. Mostly because I'm curious how other MM's think.

 

[Sonsa]

How does one deal with the Rosalina and Luma match up? I have so many problems with it and maybe it's just me but it seems 70/30 in her favor

My personal thoughts on that MU here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-15#post-18714581
and here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-15#post-18722257
A tough matchup for us, can't do our usual plans, need to adapt, bait gravitational pull, use gyroid riding mindgames, but certainly not impossible.

I have come to pillage your village.
Joking. Mega man boards are discussing the villager MU until Tuesday. Would be great to get your inputs to help dissect the MU.
http://smashboards.com/threads/zero...-thread-villager.371407/page-15#post-18895779
If you would indulge me, I'd prefer you wait until some of the MM's give their input before giving your side of the MU. Mostly because I'm curious how other MM's think.

Welcome! And sorry, couldn't wait cause my personal thoughts have been here for a while now:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-13#post-18670652
As of right now, I think it's actually one of our very worst matchups. Would love to hear more perspectives though.

 

[Locke 06]

Welcome! And sorry, couldn't wait cause my personal thoughts have been here for a while now:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-13#post-18670652
As of right now, I think it's actually one of our very worst matchups. Would love to hear more perspectives though.

Usually I do research and quote posts from the other character's MU threads or link videos of the MU as a discussion starter. I'll quote your post and dig up some more stuff later tonight and put it in the Mega Man MU thread for people to analyze.

For what it's worth, I skimmed your post and it seems similar to how I think about the MU. Bowling balls are a pain, but with more experience, utilizing Rush's (MM's default up-B) intangibility frames can help avoid it. That said, Villagers can adjust the timing of the bowling ball so that the intangibility frames do not matter. Just another aspect of the MU. ^_^

 

[Linkdude74]

My personal thoughts on that MU here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-15#post-18714581
and here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-15#post-18722257
A tough matchup for us, can't do our usual plans, need to adapt, bait gravitational pull, use gyroid riding mindgames, but certainly not impossible.

Welcome! And sorry, couldn't wait cause my personal thoughts have been here for a while now:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-13#post-18670652
As of right now, I think it's actually one of our very worst matchups. Would love to hear more perspectives though.

Thank you for the info on the Rosaluma MU. It'll be pretty helpful and I might have been over reacting about the MU odds because I had just gotten my butt handed to me by one, but bait the pull seems like a good option. This is without customs of course. It was funny last night because I was using exploding balloons, counter tree, and pushing rocket. The Rosaluma player was like, WTF do I do. I can't approach you.

As to the MM match up, I haven't had nearly as many problems with it, but then I have never really played against good MM players. The ones I do play against just spam F-Smash and I KO them with it. I'm totally willing to work with people over there on this MU if they want to spar it out.

 

[flying_tortoise]

I guess I should've posted about it here to lol
Made a MU chart and posted it into the Villager Social Thread. Because or else it'd be way too big in here

 

[lolreconlol]

Any tips against Fox? They kill me with the reflector.. ugh

 

[Antonykun]

Any tips against Fox? They kill me with the reflector.. ugh

Stop throwing projectiles

 

[Sonsa]

Any tips against Fox? They kill me with the reflector.. ugh

Yep, talked about Fox here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-17#post-18826569

It covers all of Fox, sure, but it makes him havta stop moving for a moment. Baiting it is pretty good, throw a gyroid, forget about it, go for down-air turnips, it'll hit while theyre reflecting. Mindgames with trees, try not to slingshot on the ground as its too fast, but yeah, you can do it.

 

[Comet Knight]

Any tips against Fox? They kill me with the reflector.. ugh

Be patient, bait reflectors with lloid and punish with turnips, don't throw out so many projectiles. Nair and turnips are your besties in the match up, you can nair out of his 1 2 jab lock combo thing(idk what it's called), other than that be on point with your prediction game and take the fight slow.

 

[cree318]

How do you all feel about the Villy VS Jiggles MU? I was facing a really good Jiggly player last week and although I won against him, he was able to dodge though my go to play style. I felt like the match could turn into his favor at any moment.

 

[Sonsa]

How do you all feel about the Villy VS Jiggles MU? I was facing a really good Jiggly player last week and although I won against him, he was able to dodge though my go to play style. I felt like the match could turn into his favor at any moment.

Oh, this one's pretty interesting!
I have some experience too and I think most good Jigglypuffs will do their best to give you as little space as possible. They want to hit you with a nair or fair and follow as you're getting hit with their great air mobility for follow ups. They like to carry people to blast zones with fairs just like us! Just try to mix up your DI to confuse them since theyre used to everyone DI-ing away that they'll go for follow-ups and rests that require that.

Villager's nair is a great "get-off-me" tool and can help greatly! And even if you do get carried off the stage quite badly, launching gyroid stops your momentum, can trip up opponents, and even give them a hitbox to deal with that can knock them back. Also your recovery is pretty darn good so you probably can't be gimped like the rest of the cast.

And don't be discouraged if you've suffered a lot of damage while your opponent might have nothing. Jigglypuff dies quite early! You can fair her off the screen too btw. Trees are great too, growing em or choppin em down. Jiggs is quite slow, has no projectiles, and air dodging can cause some bad landing lag. So if they keep trying to be "all up in your grill" chop a tree and theyll probably die.

Edgeguarding her isn't so bad either, turnips, slingshots, make sure she runs out of jumps and she'll only have side-b to help her a teensy bit. They might try their hardest to get to the ledge quick and be successful if you arent ready with a bowling ball or something.

She can be tough if you can't get space, and she's one of the best in the game at that, but...that's kinda all ya gatta worry about, spacing. Otherwise, Villager kills pretty early, has good tools to get space, and is a master edgeguarder against a character with...well not a bad recovery no, 5 jumps is quite nice, but that's about it, yknow what I mean?

Anyway...I thiiink it's... maybe leaning towards 60:40? How my matches went, is that I actually thought I was ganna lose both times, but because I can kill so early, nair was quite helpful, and fair and bowling ball edgeguards, I won 2 - 0 in this specific example. It might be a difference in playstyles, I'm kinda an aggressive Villager, many slingshots and turnips covered by gyroid before I plant a tree or...stop going in. I don't like giving my opponents much space either, haha!

 

[cree318]

I play as an aggressive Villager too, but this player just seemed to know what I was throwing out at him every time I tried to get something going. The biggest hurdle I had to face when playing Puff was that her aerials last a very long time and most have good priority too. I couldn't just fly in with fairs and overpressure her. Her high aerial speed in conjunction with aerial dodges and her nair/fair made me move to a more defensive play style. Also, that rest is always something you have to lookout for as it is super dangerous.

Based on my matches I would have said this was a 50:50 matchup since we both have the ability to kill each other pretty quickly (Villy with fsmash/tree/dtilt and Jiggly with rest/fsmash/bair) but I really haven't played that many other good Jiggly players aside from that one guy.

 

[Sonsa]

Mhm, well hey, I only fought maybe 3 great puffs in total and they all seemed to do the same thing. Jigg's Nair and fair did outprioritize my slingshots, so I think I started going for more turnips. I know I've killed with up-air at least a third of the time. But yeah, nair or turnips with slingshot as a nice follow-up. Slingshot was really useful for edgeguarding and using up her jumps though!

The matchup is a strange dance, they want to be around you horizontally as back air is a killer and fair pushes ya with follow ups ready, but I was just aiming for turnips and nair, circling around each other.
I dunno, maybe it's closer to 55:45, but I do think Villager has at least a slight advantage. Jigglypuff as a character is to take advantage of endlag and follow her opponent everywhere till theyre dead. Villager's get off me nair, low cooldown, great spacing tools, and awesome recovery alone give him the advantage. At least I think so!

 

[AnchorTea]

Be prepared everyone. Once the upcoming patch comes out. Our observations will (most likely) be in vein.

 

[Smob]

What would you guys consider villager's worst MU? I've been looking through this thread and can't find it.

 

[Antonykun]

@ Indigo Jeans can you edit the OP so it says "BTW Villager loses to Sheik"

 

[Sonsa]

What would you guys consider villager's worst MU? I've been looking through this thread and can't find it.

Sheik comes up a lot and is one of Villager's toughest matchups, but vs MegaMan is arguably tougher.

 

[Antonykun]

Here's a not fun exercise:
vs

 

[Sonsa]

Here's a not fun exercise:
vs

Hey, getting any new matchup outta the way is pretty fun, but uh, Mii Swordfighters...I don't have a lot of experience with them, but I know their movement is pretty lacking and paired with their endlag and linear recoveries (I know at least 1111 set is super lame recovery) makes most people believe that Mii Swordfighter belongs at the bottom of the tier list.

I know there's a custom where Mii Swordfighters get to reflect things, so yknow. You can bait that and pocket your own things, but dont recover with riding on gyroid.

There's also a move they have where they can copy Ike and do a quick draw, that can help theyre movement, but overall they just have a lot more startup and endlag than most characters and I just can't imagine one beating a high-level Villager. They also have a down-b that helps them thrust forward and at an angle in the air, but its knockback is nothing impressive. And it's still pretty slow for some reason.

I'd love to say 80:20 or something, but...I guess hypothetically if someone were to care about Mii Swordsman enough they wouldn't have their options shut down or anything. But... they'd have to be kinda defensive I guess? Make really good reads? But Villager doesnt really need to approach so...

Oh, also they can shoot tornados you can pocket. So that's fun. But yeah, I dunno, 70:30? I don't know how Swordfighter would win.

 

[AnchorTea]

Hey, getting any new matchup outta the way is pretty fun, but uh, Mii Swordfighters...I don't have a lot of experience with them, but I know their movement is pretty lacking and paired with their endlag and linear recoveries (I know at least 1111 set is super lame recovery) makes most people believe that Mii Swordfighter belongs at the bottom of the tier list.

I know there's a custom where Mii Swordfighters get to reflect things, so yknow. You can bait that and pocket your own things, but dont recover with riding on gyroid.

There's also a move they have where they can copy Ike and do a quick draw, that can help theyre movement, but overall they just have a lot more startup and endlag than most characters and I just can't imagine one beating a high-level Villager. They also have a down-b that helps them thrust forward and at an angle in the air, but its knockback is nothing impressive. And it's still pretty slow for some reason.

I'd love to say 80:20 or something, but...I guess hypothetically if someone were to care about Mii Swordsman enough they wouldn't have their options shut down or anything. But... they'd have to be kinda defensive I guess? Make really good reads? But Villager doesnt really need to approach so...

Oh, also they can shoot tornados you can pocket. So that's fun. But yeah, I dunno, 70:30? I don't know how Swordfighter would win.

We shouldn't fret. Mii Swordfighter loses against everything. (Unless something is changed in the upcoming patch)

@ Indigo Jeans can you edit the OP so it says "BTW Villager loses to Sheik"

I actually won a Sheik match yesterday quite easily. I might post a video on it.

 

[Sonsa]

Well yeah, its not impossible to beat Sheik, but she certainly has the advantage. More often than not good Sheik players will beat good Villager players. Had a really great set with a Sheik, great match on omega battlefield, won with a tree punishing her jump and killing off the top at 35%!

Ive said this before, but it might actually be better to take her to omegas and FD as that gives her less places to hide with her superior speed, even if you lose out on bowling ball surprise kills.

Had another great set with customs on. I don't think my opponent was using any, and all I was using different was the...uh...that tripping sapling. It was still pretty close, but Villager took it. It was a good match, hopefully I get a capture card sometime soon and may be able to show.

And yeah, Swordfighter isn't a threat at all to pretty much anyone except maybe Ganondorf.

 

[SoniCraft]

I wouldn't sleep on Mii Swordfighter too quickly. Trela won a tournament recently going 100% DEFAULT Swordfighter(customs were off)! You can check it out on the Mii Swordfighter boards. He has a really strong fsmash, and dthrow to uair is a combo at low percents.

 

[AnchorTea]

I wouldn't sleep on Mii Swordfighter too quickly. Trela won a tournament recently going 100% DEFAULT Swordfighter(customs were off)! You can check it out on the Mii Swordfighter boards. He has a really strong fsmash, and dthrow to uair is a combo at low percents.

Wow. It's about time Mii Swordfighter had a chance...

 

[Sonsa]

I wouldn't sleep on Mii Swordfighter too quickly. Trela won a tournament recently going 100% DEFAULT Swordfighter(customs were off)! You can check it out on the Mii Swordfighter boards. He has a really strong fsmash, and dthrow to uair is a combo at low percents.

Ha-whaaa? Alright, alright, I'll havta see that. Disregard my previous inexperienced guesses.

 

[Antonykun]

Ha-whaaa? Alright, alright, I'll havta see that. Disregard my previous inexperienced guesses.

Me-"Oh don't worry, Lady Sonsa, I'll get the stream!"
Twitch-This video cannot be found or was deleted by the user
Me

 

[SoniCraft]

Aw no the stream was taken down??? Noooo that was possibly our only footage of a Swordfighter being viably used. Well lemme tell you it was impressive. He beat Sonic, ZSS, Marth, and others. Of course they probably had no idea what they were fighting, but it was still really cool. It looks like his default neutral b is kind of a garbage projectile though. Does like 2% and barely hits. The up b is kinda lame, a good recovery but not much else. He did get a spike on the down hit with it though which was pretty hype. Down b is a counter which he pretty much never used, and side b is the spinning ball thing, which he didn't use much, but to me it looks like a fairly promising move.

Anything you can remember you'd like to add Antonykun? I know you saw that thread on the Swordfighter boards too, right?

 

[SoniCraft]

Aw no the stream was taken down??? Noooo that was possibly our only footage of a Swordfighter being viably used. Well lemme tell you it was impressive. He beat Sonic, ZSS, Marth, and others. Of course they probably had no idea what they were fighting, but it was still really cool. It looks like his default neutral b is kind of a garbage projectile though. Does like 2% and barely hits. The up b is kinda lame, a good recovery but not much else. He did get a spike on the down hit with it though which was pretty hype. Down b is a counter which he pretty much never used, and side b is the spinning ball thing, which he didn't use much, but to me it looks like a fairly promising move.

Anything you can remember you'd like to add @ Antonykun ? I know you saw that thread on the Swordfighter boards too, right?

Ohhhh shoot sorry double post. I was trying to edit my other one to add the "@" to Antonykun.

 

[Antonykun]

Aw no the stream was taken down??? Noooo that was possibly our only footage of a Swordfighter being viably used. Well lemme tell you it was impressive. He beat Sonic, ZSS, Marth, and others. Of course they probably had no idea what they were fighting, but it was still really cool. It looks like his default neutral b is kind of a garbage projectile though. Does like 2% and barely hits. The up b is kinda lame, a good recovery but not much else. He did get a spike on the down hit with it though which was pretty hype. Down b is a counter which he pretty much never used, and side b is the spinning ball thing, which he didn't use much, but to me it looks like a fairly promising move.

Anything you can remember you'd like to add Antonykun? I know you saw that thread on the Swordfighter boards too, right?

@Trela made F-smash one of my favorite Swordfighter moves

 

[AnchorTea]

@Trela made F-smash one of my favorite Swordfighter moves

I'll admit. Mii Swordfighter has an amazing F-smash.

@ Sonsa Anything on Mii Gunner?

 

[flying_tortoise]

Aw no the stream was taken down??? Noooo that was possibly our only footage of a Swordfighter being viably used. Well lemme tell you it was impressive. He beat Sonic, ZSS, Marth, and others. Of course they probably had no idea what they were fighting, but it was still really cool. It looks like his default neutral b is kind of a garbage projectile though. Does like 2% and barely hits. The up b is kinda lame, a good recovery but not much else. He did get a spike on the down hit with it though which was pretty hype. Down b is a counter which he pretty much never used, and side b is the spinning ball thing, which he didn't use much, but to me it looks like a fairly promising move.

Anything you can remember you'd like to add Antonykun? I know you saw that thread on the Swordfighter boards too, right?

Mii fighter's side B comes out so slow tho, i agree with Trela for not rly using it much.
That is so crazy tho of all the mii's I thought the sword fighter was without a doubt the worst. Wish I could see that footage