Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[Rockaphin]

Honestly, I feel Villager has an advantage match-up against the major heavies. The only one that I find a possible toss-up is Donkey Kong. Mostly due to his range and speed.

 

[Sonsa]

Honestly, I feel Villager has an advantage match-up against the major heavies. The only one that I find a possible toss-up is Donkey Kong. Mostly due to his range and speed.

Well sure, their size and endlag helps for slingshot juggles and setting up gyroids and trees.

Donkey Kong can be tricky with his speed and range, but can usually be walled and spaced out pretty effectively. His recovery is also a little tricky, I mean, when he's low, he's pretty much dead, bowling ball or turnip that guy, but when he's coming horizontally where his hitboxes are swinging, slingshots won't out-prioritize, so it's best to wait for it to end and punish or play around with ledge options if he goes for the ledge.

I think our most worrisome heavyweight is actually Charizard though,
Villager vs Charizard
Charizard is quite fast, multiple jumps, super-armor up-b pretty much, and a few tools to punish ours. We can get flamethrown if we set up gyroids and sometimes the fire will destroy them too. Same for hiding behind trees or trying to set one up. For gyroid and tree would could also face a flare blitz, which you don't wait to get hit by. Rock smash can also disturb approaches like nair, dair, or fair with its super armor and nice knockback.

Charizard also has nice spacing where he can hit us with f-tilt if we're trying to start a d-tilt combo or start a gyroid again. Charizard's bair acts similarly, just slower with more power. The tip if his tail can kill...can't remember off the top of my head but I'll guess 80%?

Edgeguarding him can be tricky as you may get flare blitzed or killed by a super armored up-b. Gimping is an okay option though. In the reverse situation, he can pop our balloons or interrupt our double jump out of gyroid set-up with fire, and even has a spike if your gyroid set-ups are getting too predictable.

On stage he generally outranges us with grounded options like a quick d-tilt which does a clean 10%, f-tilt with a strong tipper, and a pretty nice jab that launches people quite high up, making Villager havta land which can be uncomfortable as we aren't fast-fallers, but nothing crazy hard.

Charizard is easy to juggle though, it's just getting those kills that are tricky. Best bet is to gimp, really. Charizard however can spike us, pop our balloons, kill off the top, more range on his smashes, kills off the top easier than we can him, even has a kill throw (down throw) at around 130% I think...

Hm...
Call me crazy but... is Villager vs Charizard 40:60 for us...?

 

[Themeatgrinder]

Have u guys gotten to Zelda yet? I've come across plenty of Villagers online so I have decent experience with the MU

 

[Antonykun]

@ Sonsa I know literally nothing about Charizard so I can't help. But I sent a distress signal to the Charizard boards
@ Themeatgrinder Zelda on the other hand

Here are some things to know (Villager is male btw)

• Slingshots + Lloyds lock the woman in meaning Villy can go for his amazing aerials
• On the ground D-tilt and F-tilt is the one true moves for dealing with Zelda.
• Don't bother edguarding Zelda outside of a meaty F-smash Faore will not let him do anything else
• Zelda kills Villager at fraudulent percents, one mess up and your stock goes away
• Zelda is really good at getting away with not moving especially against Villager
• Nairo's Love is a Shoryuken that reflects literally a middle finger to Villager
• Girl Villagers are cuter than Zelda

 

[Sonsa]

@ Antonykun Nice work, we could use more insight.
@ Themeatgrinder We haven't covered it in depth yet, no, we'd love your insight, the more discussion the better the understanding! I've had a few good experiences too I learned a lot from so I'll give my insight too.

Villager vs Zelda

So it's easy to bait her refelctor but actually punishing it can be a hassle as Villager isn't the quickest and Nayru's Love actually hurts and is a good get off me tool. I suggest stalling in the air a bit and then try your best to time a fair or if you were close enough land a dair.

Din's fire is used as a strong zoning tool, careful as it'll certainly be used as you set up gyroid or trees, just stop what you're doing and jump/shield/just don't get hit. It can kill at higher percents.

Teleport is one of Zelda's most used kill moves, you really need to watch out for this and maybe be more aggressive than usual, cause if you try to be defensive and run away to set up a gyroid, you can die. However, the start-up is a little long, so attacking her during it is recommended! I've killed Zelda's trying to land from the air with a killing teleport by jumping and u-air turniping em.

Her down-b isn't so bad. Kinda hope they buff this move cause i havent seen it be that useful. I suppose in theory it could pop balloons easy, but I havent seen this. You can pocket it too, but be careful, Zelda can reflect it back and it'll have all those damage multipliers. Just use it for edgeguards really. Both characters should only use it for that truly.

Zelda has some nice follow-ups and combos, but our nair should keep us safe. She's kinda laggy so it's kinda easy to avoid constant pressure from her. Once you get space though, expect din's fire.

Be careful with fairs and bairs... if theyre reflected itll hurt a lot and they might go over Zelda as she does her fairs and bairs which are even more reliable killers.

For Villager in this MU...there's no real moment where you can be comfortable. Fire, teleport, spacing tools reflected back at you, tilts are essential here. But Zelda is somewhat laggy so you'll have some room for error to get back on track.

I think this MU is... Even? 50:50? Maybe slightly in Zelda's favor?

 

[Antonykun]

oh I forgot to say that I personally am no longer doing MU numbers as there are very few MU I can safely drop a number

 

[Steeler]

Villager is pretty annoying for Zard, the matchup is all about who gets the lead first because both characters are bad at approaching. This will usually swing very heavily on how well either player can land a KO move. First person to take a stock can start to snowball very hard. Villager on stage doesn't seem to really set up for kills very well, and neither does Charizard. They both just kind of play their game until the opponent messes up and gets punished by something strong. Both characters also have great recoveries that are difficult, but possible, to gimp. Honestly, I would lean toward neutral or Zard having a slight advantage, but effective ledge camping is really rough for Zard to get around because of 1) his large size 2) his slow aerial mobility 3) his aerials are either slow or small (compared to his body). Flamethrower is a big help because it can be angled to hit the ledge and below it. This seems like an even matchup, because either character can get really far ahead off the first stock and either character can gain a handy lead at first.

 

[Themeatgrinder]

@ Sonsa I know literally nothing about Charizard so I can't help. But I sent a distress signal to the Charizard boards
@ Themeatgrinder Zelda on the other hand
Here are some things to know (Villager is male btw)
Slingshots + Lloyds lock the woman in meaning Villy can go for his amazing aerials
On the ground D-tilt and F-tilt is the one true moves for dealing with Zelda.
Don't bother edguarding Zelda outside of a meaty F-smash Faore will not let him do anything else
Zelda kills Villager at fraudulent percents, one mess up and your stock goes away
Zelda is really good at getting away with not moving especially against Villager
Nairo's Love is a Shoryuken that reflects literally a middle finger to Villager
Girl Villagers are cuter than Zelda

U forgot to mention that Timber shuts us down too

@ Antonykun Nice work, we could use more insight.
@ Themeatgrinder We haven't covered it in depth yet, no, we'd love your insight, the more discussion the better the understanding! I've had a few good experiences too I learned a lot from so I'll give my insight too.

Villager vs Zelda

So it's easy to bait her refelctor but actually punishing it can be a hassle as Villager isn't the quickest and Nayru's Love actually hurts and is a good get off me tool. I suggest stalling in the air a bit and then try your best to time a fair or if you were close enough land a dair.

Din's fire is used as a strong zoning tool, careful as it'll certainly be used as you set up gyroid or trees, just stop what you're doing and jump/shield/just don't get hit. It can kill at higher percents.

Teleport is one of Zelda's most used kill moves, you really need to watch out for this and maybe be more aggressive than usual, cause if you try to be defensive and run away to set up a gyroid, you can die. However, the start-up is a little long, so attacking her during it is recommended! I've killed Zelda's trying to land from the air with a killing teleport by jumping and u-air turniping em.

Her down-b isn't so bad. Kinda hope they buff this move cause i havent seen it be that useful. I suppose in theory it could pop balloons easy, but I havent seen this. You can pocket it too, but be careful, Zelda can reflect it back and it'll have all those damage multipliers. Just use it for edgeguards really. Both characters should only use it for that truly.

Zelda has some nice follow-ups and combos, but our nair should keep us safe. She's kinda laggy so it's kinda easy to avoid constant pressure from her. Once you get space though, expect din's fire.

Be careful with fairs and bairs... if theyre reflected itll hurt a lot and they might go over Zelda as she does her fairs and bairs which are even more reliable killers.

For Villager in this MU...there's no real moment where you can be comfortable. Fire, teleport, spacing tools reflected back at you, tilts are essential here. But Zelda is somewhat laggy so you'll have some room for error to get back on track.

I think this MU is... Even? 50:50? Maybe slightly in Zelda's favor?

True. When I play this MU I find that Nayru's is easily punished by Villager. Don't worry about Din's tho

Also I think u guys have a slight advantage. I'll make a writeup later but I honestly don't think I've faced a good Villager

 

[Antonykun]

U forgot to mention that Timber shuts us down too


True. When I play this MU I find that Nayru's is easily punished by Villager. Don't worry about Din's tho

Also I think u guys have a slight advantage. I'll make a writeup later but I honestly don't think I've faced a good Villager

do you want to fight a good villager?
Also Timber shuts her down? Do go on.

 

[Themeatgrinder]

do you want to fight a good villager?
Also Timber shuts her down? Do go on.

I'd like to try fighting u before putting down my input. Some insights covered seems to have changed my thoughts a bit. Honestly it seems like I came in here in haste after fighting a few Villas but it definitely felt like I was missing obvious points

I just think that I need to look at the MU more closely. A couple of matches are OK

I also think Timber shuts Zelda down becuz controlled space in the stage thnx to trees limits her defensive options and makes them unsafe. Zeldas are not going to play aggressive becuz it is (almost) impossible for Zelda to approach safely

Buttt add my 3DS FC and we can play a few matches I guess

 

[Themeatgrinder]

I'd like to try fighting u before putting down my input. Some insights covered seems to have changed my thoughts a bit. Honestly it seems like I came in here in haste after fighting a few Villas but it definitely felt like I was missing obvious points

I just think that I need to look at the MU more closely. A couple of matches are OK

I also think Timber shuts Zelda down becuz controlled space in the stage thnx to trees limits her defensive options and makes them unsafe. Zeldas are not going to play aggressive becuz it is (almost) impossible for Zelda to approach safely. Ur tilts and smashes are disjointed which is to be feared

Buttt add my 3DS FC and we can play a few matches I guess

 

[Themeatgrinder]

Haha srry quoted it on accident. I was trying to edit it

 

[Antonykun]

Well I'm free right now so...

 

[Sonsa]

Have fun you too, but I'm not sure Zelda should respect Timber that much. Zelda's Ive faced have just din's fire'd from afar till it was destroyed or interrupted any set ups I wanted to try from afar. or just annoyed me and whittled my shield. Zelda isn't very aggressive no, but she makes Villager need to be the one to go in. Villager can do that, but isn't the best character for that...especially when Villager's approaches can be reflected and when close that reflector will send em back kinda far.

Villager just has to play Zelda's game, you know? Zelda has responses for each move Villager has. If only Villager could pocket din's fire...

 

[Themeatgrinder]

Have fun you too, but I'm not sure Zelda should respect Timber that much. Zelda's Ive faced have just din's fire'd from afar till it was destroyed or interrupted any set ups I wanted to try from afar. or just annoyed me and whittled my shield. Zelda isn't very aggressive no, but she makes Villager need to be the one to go in. Villager can do that, but isn't the best character for that...especially when Villager's approaches can be reflected and when close that reflector will send em back kinda far.

Villager just has to play Zelda's game, you know? Zelda has responses for each move Villager has. If only Villager could pocket din's fire...

Oh I never knew Din's couldn't be pocketed haha

Also I believe that I might be giving Villager too much credit. Zelda imo has a great and underrated arsenal that the Zelda player can take advantage of if used correctly. Perhaps I need to experiment more with the MU

 

[Themeatgrinder]

Oh I never knew Din's couldn't be pocketed haha. After all everytime I used Din's it always wrecked the trees

Also I believe that I might be giving Villager too much credit. Zelda imo has a great and underrated arsenal that the Zelda player can take advantage of if used correctly. Perhaps I need to experiment more with the MU

 

[Themeatgrinder]

*sigh* I need to stop quoting on accident

 

[Antonykun]

question how much combo food is Zelda?

 

[Sonsa]

question how much combo food is Zelda?

Eh, imagine Shulk with a Nayru's Love I think?

 

[Antonykun]

Eh, imagine Shulk with a Nayru's Love I think?

So Very + Nairo's Love

 

[Sonsa]

So Very + Nairo's Love

Yeah, Zelda's pretty yummy combo food, she's pretty laggy, up-air turnips for sure, but that nayru is a good get-off-me and reflector so you can't get too slingshot crazy or even string nairs

 

[Zylach]

For the Zelda MU:

Villager doesn't want to approach but Zelda will usually try to get him to do it because she'll reflect Lloid rockets and use Din's to take pot shots at you until you get out from behind your sapling/tree. Also, cutting a tree down such that it'll hit Zelda is just a bad idea since she can reflect it and instakill you.

Villager is great at keeping Zelda out of his space using ftilt, dtilt, and his aerials and Zelda needs to get in eventually in order to actually build damage quickly and also kill since Din's and Phantom can't sustain for the entire match and she has no other projectiles to speak of. The good thing for Zelda in this MU is that Villager's silly ledge camping stat doesn't work on her at all so customs work in her favor though timber counter is still annoying when it's not being used to camp the ledge. What works in Villager's favor though, if Zelda does get in, is that she has a tough time stringing together combos against Villager just because of his nair while Zelda is fairly easy for anyone to juggle though Nayru's Love can still interrupt combos. It's not too reliable though since the hitbox comes out on frame 13 I think and it can be baited and super-punished.

What Zelda really has against Villager is her kill potential. While Villager can kill Zelda early with stuff like fsmash and the tree, these are projectiles and she will not resist the urge to reflect these if she sees them coming. Meanwhile, Zelda has a lot of tools to end Villager's stock early like dair offstage against Villager's non-damaging up-B recovery, her patented elevator technique, and her other aerials which will kill Villager fairly early compared to much of the cast (He is quite light. Correct me if I'm wrong about this).

Overall, I feel like Villager's ability to play keep-out against a character that needs to get in for real damage and kills is what puts this MU slightly in his favor. Like with any MU, Zelda has to play patiently in order to come out on top but this isn't one of those MU's where she's at a horrible disadvantage for playing overly defensive which is often what she needs to do. Villager's grab isn't the best so Zelda can keep her shield up and not worry too much which she's comfortable doing considering she has some of the best OoS options in the game. Furthermore, since she can reflect a lot of Villager's attacks, that immediately gives her points against him. Villager's end/landing lag is about middle-of-the-road so he's not unpunishable like Sheik or Pikachu which Zelda is happy with. In conclusion, I feel like this MU is slightly in Villager's favor but not too much in his favor.

45:55

 

[Sonsa]

For the Zelda MU:
45:55

He's midweight, around the Mario Bros weight, but agreed - it's easier for Zelda to get the kill than it is for Villager... Usually in this matchup I just kill with back throw and up-air turnips. Zelda can kill with Din's Fire, her teleport, her fair and bair, her spike, her up-air, etc.

She has responses, buuut she is just a lil too slow and laggy so I may agree it's slightly in Villager's favor? Definitely a more demanding matchup, not a lot of time to breathe. Mmm...ehh... I dunno, just seems like Zelda has the better and more effective tools in this matchup specifically... I dunno, I'd still say it's even or even give the slight advantage to Zelda.

She has more options and responses while Villager really has to play her game. He can do it, but he's the one who needs to put in more work here. I think Zelda benefits from the "rock paper scissors" like situations more often, I really am just convincing myself more in more it's 45:55 for Villager...

 

[charizardbro]

Assuming there isn't any ledge shenanigans going on (I'm bad with ledge camping), I think I could speak about the MU decently. I'm mostly a For Glory scrub but I've watched enough high level Villager to have a decent idea of what parts of my experience aren't reflective of most good villager players.

So, neither character likes approaching. Neutral is usually pretty tame. I'm not sure if this is the case for all characters' dash attacks, but Zard's can clash with Gyroid, take no damage himself, and damage Villager. Zard's great dash speed makes this an easier read to pull off so you all are probably better off resisting the urge to overuse Gyroid in neutral despite Charizard's lack of a projectile. You could probably abuse the slingshot a little more safely though. Definitely make use of your Nair because just about the only move of Charizard's that comes out 'quickly' is the jab, which is still 1 frame slower than Villager's Nair.

I also see a lot of Villagers landing with down air. Zard's Utilt definitely outranges that (our wings and tail are disjoint) and Uair also can too but the timing is much more strict. Charizard's head is invulnerable during Uair so airdodging or getting to the ledge is probably your best bet for landing. Charizard's airdodge bait game is not great since our 2nd and 3rd jumps don't do a whole lot and our aerial mobility is terrible so give that option a try. I'm also honestly unsure if Charizard's tail during the end of Nair can outrange Villager's Uair but I guess you all can find that out.

In terms of kill options to watch out for, do not take any aerial other than Nair (but even then, a sweetspot offstage can still kill at high percents; I'd figure about 130%+) off stage once you get anywhere in the vicinity of kill percent, especially closer to blast zones. Sweetspot Bair kills very early (definitely less than 100% depending on stage positioning). Fair kills deceptively early but not that early (at around 100% offstage without rage, in my experience). Dair, of course, will kill early. Uair also kills somewhat early if you're close to a blast zone. Luckily, all of these except for Nair and Fair (8 frame startup) are pretty slow on startup so they are very airdodge-able if you don't challenge them (try not to miss any Fair of your own from close). Usmash OoS is very quick and kills well. Uspecial OoS kills very well but it's 1 frame slower. Do not land on top of Charizard. Recover to the ledge. Our ledgetrump game is pretty non-existent as far as I know because Dsmash is just that slow (14 frames of startup).

Tipper Ftilt will kill near ledge at kill percents and it's disjointed with a longer range than Villager's umbrella. As will Dthrow. Dtilt has higher base knockback than Ftilt but it won't kill very well at all. It's a decent followup out of Nair but Villager's Ftilt puts a stop to that. Utilt can kill at kill percent and it's also disjointed. Jab combos can kill at ridiculously high percents near the ledge (around 180%, I want to say). So pretty much Villager does not want a boxing match with Charizard. I'd give a solid advantage to Charizard once Zard gets close enough to prevent Villager from using his great spacing tools. Similarly, I'd give a solid advantage to Villager if Villager can space well and prevent Charizard from getting in close. Which is why, as @ Steeler said, both characters tend to snowball pretty easily. Once Charizard gets a lead, Villager feels the need to approach and even up the stocks which puts Charizard at an advantage and Charizard with rage is very dangerous. Similarly, once Villager gets a lead, Villager has no reason to be looking for anything remotely killing and can steadily rack up percent with projectiles and other safe options as Charizard tries to take a stock.

In terms of kill options I recommend for Villager, Fsmash/Tree off the ledge works great because when Charizard recovers low, Charizard really takes its time to do so between two really small airjumps and a somewhat slow Uspecial. Jump cancel Usmash can also catch a lot of Charizard's onstage landings because it catches our Nair landings so well and we typically don't have the horizontal momentum to airdodge it very well. But be quick about it and mix it up often so that you don't get Rock Smashed. Our aerials (yes, all of them) have a TON of lag when they don't autocancel. Nair and Fair are our only aerials that autocancel out of a shorthop (the timing is extremely strict for Fair). Use your short skid animation to punish with Utilt or JC Usmash, whichever kills earlier. Villager's Dair is not as useful because of Charizard's Uair and Uspecial armor but you could still gimp by stringing together Fairs or Nairs offstage.

I didn't really touch on Rock Smash, Fly, and Flare Blitz very much because they've already been mentioned. Yea, watch out for our armor, but all of these moves are really laggy when they miss. They can make and break the game for either player.

Overall, I'd give the edge to Villager when Villager plays campy by the ledge and then I'd give the edge to Charizard when Villager doesn't, making it a 50-50.

 

[AnchorTea]

Pac-Man anyone?

 

[Sonsa]

Pac-Man anyone?

It's a really fun matchup, both characters are quite adaptable and have tricks, it's pretty close to even I hear. I actually went to the Pac-man MU boards a while ago to talk about it. But I can't get quite deep into it cause...I dunno, headache, and there's that patch coming soon so might as well wait a bit.
Edit: Good thing I waited, ya cant pocket trampoline anymore and maybe some other interesting things

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Villagers, Rosalina is now analyzing you at her match-up analysis thread. If you have anything to contribute for the Rosalina vs. Villager match-up, Villager will be analyzed until the end of 4/17.

 

[Antonykun]

To all Villagers, Rosalina is now analyzing you at her match-up analysis thread. If you have anything to contribute for the Rosalina vs. Villager match-up, Villager will be analyzed until the end of 4/17.

it's time

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I think Zelda vs villager is evenish. Villager can aggressive camp Zelda until he has a lead and just attempt to pester her with slingshots as she attempts an approach.

Nayrus can reflect slingshots and Lloyd so mixing and matching how you approach with them can aid in confusing Zelda to allow you to hit her. nayrus helps Zelda minimize projectile damage. Running forward with dtilt in between helps her approach around slingshots because it crouches her hurtbox.

Tree is really nothing to Zelda. Villager can Lloid from in front of it but not behind while Zelda can Dins from afar, it feels to me more like a janky road block for Zelda because she can Dins it from afar. phantom is only kind of helpful as a slingshot block. Him being pocketable makes him too deadly for much more than a wall or close range instant hit for spacing.

Zelda is juggleable, but I think a fub Dair can trade off a single turnip Uair in some instances but more or less Zelda will opt to DI away if your hanging out under her. I've mostly fought bad Villagers but the more interesting ones i feel a slight more annoying never any serious disadvantage.

 

[FirestormNeos]

I would still like to know if there are any counters against this guy.

 

[Sonsa]

I would still like to know if there are any counters against this guy.

Against Villager? I still think Megaman could be your best bet.

 

[Antonykun]

Now we have to have @ Indigo Jeans edit the op to say "BTW we lose to Megaman" as Sheik has been nerfed

One more thing rising short hop f-air hits a standing rosalina

 

[Action Kazimer]

Anyone have any Olimar input? My buddy just picked him up and it's made for some really interesting back and forths. I'll try to toss some notes up when I get more time.

 

[AnchorTea]

Ok. I literally cannot approach the Villager ditto. Help.

 

[TR33]

Ok. I literally cannot approach the Villager ditto. Help.

In the ditto I find that the villager that's vertically lower than the other has the advantage. because the fair travels in an arc and is fired from the top of the character's body you want your opponent above you. Also as far as I've seen, and I could be wrong on this, villager's Uair out prioritizes his Dair. Again this has only been the case from my matches. The rest is a game of spacing to pop the other one into that perfect height. Again this is just how I approach the m/u and why I think doing so will gain you advantage. Pocket stray lloids if you have the time and they don't have a tree up since double lloid + villager's options = great offensive pressure / frame traps.

 

[Sonsa]

Anyone have any Olimar input? My buddy just picked him up and it's made for some really interesting back and forths. I'll try to toss some notes up when I get more time.

Sorry I held off on this forever!
Villager vs Pikmin
SO, the captains are ganna wanna rack up damage by using their side-b, here's the thing: If you get Pikmin on you, just down-tilt. It gets Pikmin off immediately and if you keep doing it they'll die as when they get off you they fall a little beside you. So in this matchup you can actually make Olimar pluck more than usual. If you can get him in the air and keep him there with juggles you really limit his options.

Pikmin can go through your tree and gyroid start-up, but yknow. Down-tilt. OR, you can still pocket any type of Pikmin hurled at you, but it's only their side-b. Though their f-smash and some other stuff counts as projectiles, you can't pocket them.
Olimar's will also want to grab you a lot to perform down-tilt to forward air, or try to kill with an up-throw (kinda almost like ROB?)

Not a lot else to cover. Olimar's B Move pluck... Yeah, not a huge deal, if you can stop him from doing it, great, if not, whatever.
His Down-B will call Pikmin back. No biggie, prepare for more side-b I guess. Doesn't have the super-armor from Brawl I believe.

Ummm... Both your recoveries are really good and both of ya have spikes. Be creative when recovering of course and try to cover your approach to the ledge with a gyroid, unless they're already mid-jump expecting to punish gyroid start-up.
When they're recovering they'll want to be creative too, avoiding bowling ball and maybe using an aerial to act out of up-b as offense can be a great defense. Olimar and Alph can act out of their up-b's ya know. They still go helpless afterwards to maybe go for this mindgame: They're recovering high, get real close, they think if they hit ya they've got a safe landing, don't do any attack just be real close and just air dodge, uh-oh, now they're helpless, hit em with an up-air.

F-Tilt's great as it'll stop Pikmin and grab attempts, both players should always be conscious of which Pikmin's in use. Blue has great throws, Purple will kill, etc. Gyroid can cover a lot of space and stop Pikmin. Tree, I recommend using, Olimar will just try to use this to his advantage by throwing all his Pikmin at you, but you can kill them all by chopping down the tree, he'd havta whistle but usually can't save em all.

Yeah, it's a neat match-up. I've always considered it even and still do I think. Yup. 50:50. Always happy to hear other thoughts though.

 

[Themeatgrinder]

After reading @ Zylach and @ Sonsa 's posts, I actually think Villagers I've played don't know the MU

But neither did I

 

[TR33]

Against Villager? I still think Megaman could be your best bet.

I haven't really been following the majority of this thread but is a good palutena not still considered a hard counter too? a long lasting reflector she can act out of + a wind box on said reflector that makes it so you have to predict the reflect to punish or jump awkwardly high and attempt to come in on her uair which stuffs all of villager's options. I don't want to sound like I'm oversimplifying the m/u and well placed slingshots aren't useless but the neutral game, which villager normally dominates, feels like it's totally in pal's favor. Also pre patch shiek was considered a hard counter for villager as well, and as far as I know none of her nerfs detracted from that, sure she can't kill reliably off of bair that isn't exactly what made that m/u hard to begin with ( unless her fair was actually nerfed, I've heard people saying it wasn't touched and others saying it's been nerfed so as not to combo as much )

TL;DR Pal and Shiek still bad m/u's right?

 

[Antonykun]

I haven't really been following the majority of this thread but is a good palutena not still considered a hard counter too? a long lasting reflector she can act out of + a wind box on said reflector that makes it so you have to predict the reflect to punish or jump awkwardly high and attempt to come in on her uair which stuffs all of villager's options. I don't want to sound like I'm oversimplifying the m/u and well placed slingshots aren't useless but the neutral game, which villager normally dominates, feels like it's totally in pal's favor. Also pre patch shiek was considered a hard counter for villager as well, and as far as I know none of her nerfs detracted from that, sure she can't kill reliably off of bair that isn't exactly what made that m/u hard to begin with ( unless her fair was actually nerfed, I've heard people saying it wasn't touched and others saying it's been nerfed so as not to combo as much )

TL;DR Pal and Shiek still bad m/u's right?

Palutena's reflector is super laggy on a character whose projectiles exist to get you to not move plus her frame data is slow while also being rather light

No Palutena is not a bad matchup

 

[SoniCraft]

So I actually co-main Olimar with Villager, so I have some ideas to contribute to this MU!

I posted my thoughts at this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-discussion-lets-learn-together.368178/page-8

My post is at the very bottom. Tell me what you guys think!