Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[RAzul]

I practice with probably one of the best megaman's in the country and we both agree that MU is pretty bad for Villager

You couldn't be more right.

 

[Sodo]

The Mario matchup is killing me. I play as Mario a lot so I know their basic gameplan is to cape everything. I can pocket stuff, sure, but it doesn't change the fact that Mario's Sideb special basically dictates this matchup. What are your recommendations on dealing with him as Villager?

 

[Antonykun]

If you read some of my earlier post about Mario, you'll see my thoughts on him

 

[Sonsa]

The Mario matchup is killing me. I play as Mario a lot so I know their basic gameplan is to cape everything. I can pocket stuff, sure, but it doesn't change the fact that Mario's Sideb special basically dictates this matchup. What are your recommendations on dealing with him as Villager?

Most Mario's I've fought, I bait the cape. Let's me pocket my tree, which can be a one hit ko, gyroids which can be powerful, you can actually throw that then grab them to make sure they get hit by it. Their recovery is kinda predictable, so get out there and hit em, um... Yeah, I usually just keep my space, bait capes, pocket a lot, and do combos when I get the chance, like if theyre jumping at ya or get hit by a gyroid follow up with slingshot slingshot jump slingshot, you can almost carry em to the other side of the stage. Make good guesses, know what they want, give them what they want only to take it away and turn it in your favor. Hope that helped a bit?

 

[Sodo]

If you read some of my earlier post about Mario, you'll see my thoughts on him

Is there a way to search within a thread? I feel stupid because I tried to do that at first but I simply couldn't find a way to.

Most Mario's I've fought, I bait the cape. Let's me pocket my tree, which can be a one hit ko, gyroids which can be powerful, you can actually throw that then grab them to make sure they get hit by it. Their recovery is kinda predictable, so get out there and hit em, um... Yeah, I usually just keep my space, bait capes, pocket a lot, and do combos when I get the chance, like if theyre jumping at ya or get hit by a gyroid follow up with slingshot slingshot jump slingshot, you can almost carry em to the other side of the stage. Make good guesses, know what they want, give them what they want only to take it away and turn it in your favor. Hope that helped a bit?

Aerials are the way I rack up most damage now, because I'm convinced Mario is the Anti-Villager. But yes, I do appreciate the help. Never thought about pocketing the tree, will have to definitely try that against the next cape-happy Mario I play against.

 

[Atomsk_92]

So what do y'all think of the Villager vs Sonic and vs Diddy match ups?

 

[mmik]

I'm not sure there's enough time to pocket the tree in normal situations. At least I've never done it in normal gameplay. Can you pocket a caped tree or is the Axe end lag too long?

 

[Sonsa]

I'm not sure there's enough time to pocket the tree in normal situations. At least I've never done it in normal gameplay. Can you pocket a caped tree or is the Axe end lag too long?

If you are at a safe enough distance, don't worry about axe endlag, he'll cape it and you'll definitely have time to pocket it. Just dont cut the tree down while youre directly next to it or it will hit almost as soon as he capes.

So what do y'all think of the Villager vs Sonic and vs Diddy match ups?

Vs Sonic... Gyroid, Bowling Ball his usually predictable recovery, shield a lot, its tough but not impossible. For Diddy, pocket that banana and gimp as hard as you can, shouldnt be suuuper hard. I wonder if you can pocket his barrels that fly off though?

 

[Antonykun]

I'm not sure there's enough time to pocket the tree in normal situations. At least I've never done it in normal gameplay. Can you pocket a caped tree or is the Axe end lag too long?

The end lag is too long.

 

[Sonsa]

The end lag is too long.

If you're too close. Just back off a liiittle and you should be fine. An arms or axe's length away.
Edit: I've baited a lot of capes so I could pocket my tree. Only time I got punished is when I was too close once, right up against the tree.

 

[Sodo]

I'm not sure there's enough time to pocket the tree in normal situations. At least I've never done it in normal gameplay. Can you pocket a caped tree or is the Axe end lag too long?

I'm not sure about the Wii U version, which is the one I play, but a number of posts on Reddit, Gamefaqs, etc. seem to confirm the theory on the 3DS. Now that I think about it, his axe does stay out a long time while swinging. I'll have to test this when I get home.

Edit: Nevermind, Antony and Sonsa to the rescue haha.

 

[Antonykun]

If you're too close. Just back off a liiittle and you should be fine. An arms or axe's length away.
Edit: I've baited a lot of capes so I could pocket my tree. Only time I got punished is when I was too close once, right up against the tree.

Well If Mario keeps smacking the tree before it falls with the cape you cannot pocket the tree. But frankly the reward on the pocketed tree is not worth the risk of said tree being reflected IMO its an instakill on us

 

[Atomsk_92]

If you are at a safe enough distance, don't worry about axe endlag, he'll cape it and you'll definitely have time to pocket it. Just dont cut the tree down while youre directly next to it or it will hit almost as soon as he capes.

Vs Sonic... Gyroid, Bowling Ball his usually predictable recovery, shield a lot, its tough but not impossible. For Diddy, pocket that banana and gimp as hard as you can, shouldnt be suuuper hard. I wonder if you can pocket his barrels that fly off though?

This didn't answer my question at all. This was you just saying what you do in the matchup rather than what your opinion of those two are.

 

[Antonykun]

This didn't answer my question at all. This was you just saying what you do in the matchup rather than what your opinion of those two are.

All righty I decided to make an uber beta MU chart for Villager based on all characters
Somethings to note:
I tried making this super conservative, as I often see people complaining that their character loses to* insert top tier here* (not you guys though you're all awesome)
All of Villager's MUs are technically winnable but god are the +2/3 stacked against you

(Major Disadvantage 35:65 or less)

(Disadvantage 40:60)

(Minor Disadvantage 45:55)

(Arbitrarily Close To Even 50:50)
/ /
(Minor Advantage 55:45)

(Advantage 60:40)

(Major Advantage 65:35 or more)


(Not Sure)


It's getting late for me, so tommorrow I'm going to add more thoughts on this list.
Feel free to question/argue any points we could even learn a thing or two.

enjoy

 

[Sonsa]

Well If Mario keeps smacking the tree before it falls with the cape you cannot pocket the tree. But frankly the reward on the pocketed tree is not worth the risk of said tree being reflected IMO its an instakill on us

What? Why? That doesn't make much sense, once reflected with the cape it becomes his, its not like he can reflect his own fire balls before they're reflected first. I've baited a lot of Mario's with this even with them frantically caping. If you stay at a safe distance there is no punishment, the tree stays in the air for a sec, you have time to just press B and you have the instakill move at your disposal.

This didn't answer my question at all. This was you just saying what you do in the matchup rather than what your opinion of those two are.

? I answered what I think Villagers should do in the match-up. What do you want me to say? My opinion on those two is theyre quick but if ya do what I say youve got a good shot. Maybe Im wrong and Im open to discussion, but what I said definitely wasn't...irrelevant?

 

[Antonykun]

What? Why? That doesn't make much sense, once reflected with the cape it becomes his, its not like he can reflect his own fire balls before they're reflected first. I've baited a lot of Mario's with this even with them frantically caping. If you stay at a safe distance there is no punishment, the tree stays in the air for a sec, you have time to just press B and you have the instakill move at your disposal.

? I answered what I think Villagers should do in the match-up. What do you want me to say? My opinion on those two is theyre quick but if ya do what I say youve got a good shot. Maybe Im wrong and Im open to discussion, but what I said definitely wasn't...irrelevant?

What I mean is if he capes the tree the endlag from the axe won't let you pocked the caped tree.
A good mario isn't going to "frantically mash the cape", they're going to play safe bait the tree or just wait until 30 seconds

 

[Sonsa]

What I mean is if he capes the tree the endlag from the axe won't let you pocked the caped tree.
A good mario isn't going to "frantically mash the cape", they're going to play safe bait the tree or just wait until 30 seconds

Oh, I thought you meant if they mashed the cape somehow you couldnt pocket it. The endlag will be your downfall if youre too close. I keep saying if you axe at a safe distance (really not that far) it will take the time of the endlag for the tree to be in the air for a moment, get caped, and it will linger in the air again for a moment. Axe's endlag isn't longer than all that. Ive done it multiple times. And sure they could wait 30 seconds, but plenty of the cast can do that too, its still nice to have a 1 hit ko in your pocket in case you make a nice read. The cape seriously doesnt need to be feared that hard, take advantage of it. A good Mario if definitely less likely to get baited, but just good to know in case you run into one that's nervous or if you just need to take some crazy shot. A good player is less likely to get hit by the tree, but ya still chop it when the opportunity strikes.

 

[CHOVI]

I wonder if you can pocket his barrels that fly off though?

Yes you can


By the way can Falco-reflected trees be pocketed? I've never been able to do it, but maybe I'm too close?

 

[Sonsa]

Yes you can


By the way can Falco-reflected trees be pocketed? I've never been able to do it, but maybe I'm too close?

Oh wow, that's interesting! Ill try to do that after gimping Diddy, I always get nervous about gimping him in fear of dying to rouge barrels.
And definitely yes to Falco reflected stuff, I remember killing one by baiting him. This is back in For Glory on the 3DS version, but I doubt it's been patched out. Some players just figure you're dumb and wanna show ya how much more smart they are by reflecting. If you keep your distance, not so far that you can just barely chop the tree down, but close to there, you will have ample time to grab your tree back. Against Falco and Fox it's even more powerful cause they amplify it right? Or maybe...I think pocket gets rid of those and adds its own properties. I used to think it multiplied both, but read something that it may not? Im unclear sorry.
But yeah! Keep that distance and youre fine.

 

[Player-1]

This didn't answer my question at all. This was you just saying what you do in the matchup rather than what your opinion of those two are.

I think it's pretty evenish until villager has to kill sonic then it turns bad, Villager's kill moves take precision and it's hard to pin down sonic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdjNA9aUXk4

 

[HowaitoKumaSan]

Yeah, baiting the cape is your best bet. Same with most of the reflector characters (except Dark/Pit, since the shields prevent approaches). Typically most Marios will see a Gyroid and cape it. Try to start running with your Gyroid and do an early jump so you can hit them as they're stuck doing the cape.

EDIT: After seeing your matchup chart Antony, I'd like to add that IMO Shulk has a truly hard time with Villager.

 

[Antonykun]

I think it's pretty evenish until villager has to kill sonic then it turns bad, Villager's kill moves take precision and it's hard to pin down sonic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdjNA9aUXk4

Actually that how I feel about all three of Villagers terribad matchups it just its more pronounced on Yoshi.

 

[Antonykun]

EDIT: After seeing your matchup chart Antony, I'd like to add that IMO Shulk has a truly hard time with Villager.

Oh really care to explain?
I know Speed Shulk is annoying but the rest is definitely doable

 

[HowaitoKumaSan]

Oh really care to explain?
I know Speed Shulk is annoying but the rest is definitely doable

It's a spacing issue. Even accounting for Speed, Shulk has no real options for getting in. It's like the Ike matchup, but worse for Shulk since there's no threat of an early kill like with Ike and his Smash attacks. The damage drawbacks in each Monado mode become much more severe since the Lloyds and pellets make his approaches even riskier. Add to the fact that his only ranged attack are his smashes, and it becomes an exercise in frustration for Shulk.

Speaking of Ike, Shulk's recovery is a lot easier to gimp since he has no armor or inv.frames (that I know of) for his UpB. So once he's off the stage, it's more or less a free stock.

I'm not saying it's 80/20 for Villager or anything, but it's definitely bad for Shulk.

 

[Sonsa]

I think it's pretty evenish until villager has to kill sonic then it turns bad, Villager's kill moves take precision and it's hard to pin down sonic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdjNA9aUXk4

Hey good set! Ya did stuff Ive wanted other Villagers to do, (hopefully myself but I cant get to many tourneys) but I think youre totally right there. I fought a Sonic in an online tournament a while ago and he won by time, just ran away from all the stuff I was throwing at him.

 

[Sonsa]

Oh, also, regarding capes and reflectors. Also don't chop it down if the opponent is right up against the tree, cause then you will get punished. They're just usually a safe distance away out of fear. If not and they come right up, you can go for a grab or short hop over them turnips if they're Falco I guess.
Just fought some Foxes and a Doc on For Glory and baited reflectors, but after some games they caught on and came closer to the tree, which I responded with - you guessed it - grabs and turnips. It's all situational, just have this info and pull it out when the opportunity strikes.

 

[RAzul]

Actually that how I feel about all three of Villagers terribad matchups it just its more pronounced on Yoshi.

Yoshi is SUCH a damn pain dude. One of my most hated characters. He has too much priority and minimal lag on so many moves. His UAir, NAir and jab are ridiculous.

 

[Sonsa]

I hope we can get that match-up chart on the first page soon. I feel like we're kind of behind while other character match-up threads have weekly discussions and some have some fleshed out results...
It would also help dictate what we should discuss next! Like, I want to discuss the Villager - Wario matchup, but I'm not sure if it has already been done and done well? Sorry if I seem rude, just wanna share data and stuff better

 

[Makai Wars]

Villager v Wario?

I honestly can't say I know too much about this matchup since you very seldom face good Warios on FG and I've yet to peek into the WAH boards to challenge one.

Villager out ranges Wario but Wario out speeds Villager hardcore. If we couldn't hold onto the bike this MU would be much harder.

 

[Sonsa]

Sorry, I think I rushed a bit... I wanna talk Villager vs Wario, but first someone brought up Diddy and Sonic and I touched real briefly on them, when I shoulda gone in depth. To be honest, I was confusing this thread with a social one I think? But first Im ganna offer my thoughts on them.
Villager vs Diddy
Diddy is fast, but manageable (barely) He can be pretty aggressive, but you could potentially wall him out. Gyroids should stop Monkey Flips, and you gatta pocket the banana.
Once you pocket the banana Diddy loses a fast projectile and guaranteed set-ups and follow ups. If you get him off the stage you can again set up a gyroid to stop monkey flips, and when you get him to use his barrels gimp him! Bowling ball, turnips, get down there and do something, don't worry, you'll definitely recover - Villager can go deep! Also, you can apparently pocket his barrel jet pack once it flies off of him, so don't worry about getting stage spiked. Be brave and gimp!
Diddy's can try and be creative with their recoveries though, curving awkwardly, so maybe try to Nair? That could cover more space and it lasts kinda long.
His peanut popgun really shouldnt be a problem, you can grow a tree to keep them from reaching you and retaliate with gyroids.
Also, I'm not sure, but I think your Nair could prevent a HA follow up from the HOO at most percents.
At higher percents, build a wall to pressure him to come to you, shield grab to back throw for a kill, or just get him off stage and gimp.
I think this matchup is 60:40 or 55:45 in Villager's favor.
Edit: Aha...just got some more matchup experience, this monkey can be on you like a Jigglypuff! I'd say this is even, gimping smart Diddy's isn't as easy as I made it out to be. But Villager does still have great tools to do it.
Villager vs Sonic
Now Sonic is faster than Diddy but doesn't have any useful projectiles besides spring, I suppose. It's not useless to pocket either, I've stage spiked with them. But what I mean is Sonic can't throw something at you quickly, he has to go in. And with his speed, he's got the stage control to do it.
A good Sonic will punish a gyroid with a dash attack, at the beginning of a match you're going to want to rely on your melee moves. Umbrella, short hop down-air turnips, weeds, jabs can punish spin dashes with good timing as well. But when you see them starting a spin dash, that's when you can throw a gyroid and short hop fair or bair with slingshots.
In exchange for his speed, his recovery is somewhat more predictable. When launched horizontally and above/close to the ledge, they may want to go for a homing attack, since a Villager might be busy launching a gyroid. I think no matter what Sonic does, all Villager has to do is wait until Sonic makes a decision. Then Villager can punish almost any choice. For a homing attack, you want to spot dodge to punish that endlag, but simply shielding isn't bad either, there's some endlag to punish regardless.
However, if they want to use their spring and are directly below you, you know ya gatta hurl that bowling ball.
However, yet again, if they expect this, they'll want to spring before that and hold towards the ledge, grabbing it without losing any teeth. However, yet again again, I think there's a punishment for this as well - Sonic has no hitbox as he rises (I'm excluding customs in these analyses) so what you're going to want to do is gently push him away with your watering can! The tree nor the axe are really all that useful in this matchup anyway, you're not likely to catch a good Sonic with them. So when you can, plant a seed and use your watering can when the opportunity strikes!
Now, if you're on stages like Final Destination or Battlefield, they can hug the stage and it will push them up to the ledge. In that case, I guess get down there and back air, try to stage spike? There's no hitbox to worry about from him so go do somethin!
As someone said, Sonic is manageable, but when percents are high, he can be tough to pin down and kill. I've been timed out by one, myself. I think you're really ganna want to stand your ground, not waste your time with building walls Sonic can run right through, and really capitalize on getting Sanic off the stage. I think - let him be the aggressive one - he has to be - stand your ground, and push him off the stage to blast zones. Punish spin dashes, dash attack end lag, and predictable recoveries. I think you should really go for stages with walled ledges, many Omega stages like this - Wii Fit Studio, Castle Siege, Yoshi's Island. If for some reason you can't Duck Hunt may be a good stage to go to. I'd fear Sonic's back air, but you can surprise kill with a bowling ball launched from atop the tree or bush. Plus, those walls help eliminate a preferable recovery option for Sonic.
I think this matchup is about 50-50. Even.

Villager v Wario?
I honestly can't say I know too much about this matchup since you very seldom face good Warios on FG and I've yet to peek into the WAH boards to challenge one.
Villager out ranges Wario but Wario out speeds Villager hardcore. If we couldn't hold onto the bike this MU would be much harder.

Villager vs Wario
I fought an alright one, I want to say, in an online tournament, and they don't wanna give you the bike, but they really want to use it. If you can slingshot or turnip, something to get them off that bike and you steal it, this game is nearly over. At that point, Wario's recovery isn't stellar and he may have to burn the fart just to get back to the ledge. I dont think he can eat gyroids, so wall him out with trees, slingshots, gyroids, and when the percent is high enough, kill with back throw, shovel to fireworks, or bowling ball or turnips once you get him off the stage.
Pocketing the bike seems crucial to me, once you do that it's pretty easy to win.
I'd say this is... 60-40 in Villager's favor?

 

[Antonykun]

Sorry, I think I rushed a bit... I wanna talk Villager vs Wario, but first someone brought up Diddy and Sonic and I touched real briefly on them, when I shoulda gone in depth. To be honest, I was confusing this thread with a social one I think? But first Im ganna offer my thoughts on them.
Villager vs Diddy
Diddy is fast, but manageable. He can be pretty aggressive, but you could potentially wall him out. Gyroids should stop Monkey Flips, and you gatta pocket the banana.
Once you pocket the banana Diddy loses a fast projectile and guaranteed set-ups and follow ups. If you get him off the stage you can again set up a gyroid to stop monkey flips, and when you get him to use his barrels gimp him! Bowling ball, turnips, get down there and do something, don't worry, you'll definitely recover - Villager can go deep! Also, you can apparently pocket his barrel jet pack once it flies off of him, so don't worry about getting stage spiked. Be brave and gimp!
Diddy's can try and be creative with their recoveries though, curving awkwardly, so maybe try to Nair? That could cover more space and it lasts kinda long.
His peanut popgun really shouldnt be a problem, you can grow a tree to keep them from reaching you and retaliate with gyroids.
Also, I'm not sure, but I think your Nair could prevent a HA follow up from the HOO at most percents.
At higher percents, build a wall to pressure him to come to you, shield grab to back throw for a kill, or just get him off stage and gimp.
I think this matchup is 60:40 or 55:45 in Villager's favor.
Villager vs Sonic
Now Sonic is faster than Diddy but doesn't have any useful projectiles besides spring, I suppose. It's not useless to pocket either, I've stage spiked with them. But what I mean is Sonic can't throw something at you quickly, he has to go in. And with his speed, he's got the stage control to do it.
A good Sonic will punish a gyroid with a dash attack, at the beginning of a match you're going to want to rely on your melee moves. Umbrella, short hop down-air turnips, weeds, jabs can punish spin dashes with good timing as well. But when you see them starting a spin dash, that's when you can throw a gyroid and short hop fair or bair with slingshots.
In exchange for his speed, his recovery is somewhat more predictable. When launched horizontally and above/close to the ledge, they may want to go for a homing attack, since a Villager might be busy launching a gyroid. I think no matter what Sonic does, all Villager has to do is wait until Sonic makes a decision. Then Villager can punish almost any choice. For a homing attack, you want to spot dodge to punish that endlag, but simply shielding isn't bad either, there's some endlag to punish regardless.
However, if they want to use their spring and are directly below you, you know ya gatta hurl that bowling ball.
However, yet again, if they expect this, they'll want to spring before that and hold towards the ledge, grabbing it without losing any teeth. However, yet again again, I think there's a punishment for this as well - Sonic has no hitbox as he rises (I'm excluding customs in these analyses) so what you're going to want to do is gently push him away with your watering can! The tree nor the axe are really all that useful in this matchup anyway, you're not likely to catch a good Sonic with them. So when you can, plant a seed and use your watering can when the opportunity strikes!
Now, if you're on stages like Final Destination or Battlefield, they can hug the stage and it will push them up to the ledge. In that case, I guess get down there and back air, try to stage spike? There's no hitbox to worry about from him so go do somethin!
As someone said, Sonic is manageable, but when percents are high, he can be tough to pin down and kill. I've been timed out by one, myself. I think you're really ganna want to stand your ground, not waste your time with building walls Sonic can run right through, and really capitalize on getting Sanic off the stage. I think - let him be the aggressive one - he has to be - stand your ground, and push him off the stage to blast zones. Punish spin dashes, dash attack end lag, and predictable recoveries. I think you should really go for stages with walled ledges, many Omega stages like this - Wii Fit Studio, Castle Siege, Yoshi's Island. If for some reason you can't Duck Hunt may be a good stage to go to. I'd fear Sonic's back air, but you can surprise kill with a bowling ball launched from atop the tree or bush. Plus, those walls help eliminate a preferable recovery option for Sonic.
I think this matchup is about 50-50. Even.

Villager vs Wario
I fought an alright one, I want to say, in an online tournament, and they don't wanna give you the bike, but they really want to use it. If you can slingshot or turnip, something to get them off that bike and you steal it, this game is nearly over. At that point, Wario's recovery isn't stellar and he may have to burn the fart just to get back to the ledge. I dont think he can eat gyroids, so wall him out with trees, slingshots, gyroids, and when the percent is high enough, kill with back throw, shovel to fireworks, or bowling ball or turnips once you get him off the stage.
Pocketing the bike seems crucial to me, once you do that it's pretty easy to win.
I'd say this is... 60-40 in Villager's favor?

I'll go talk about all these MUs again tommorow or friday

also @SolidSense Said some very interesting things about Luigi vs Villager

Spoiler

Luigi vs. Villager is about patience. Don't take damage from slingshots and Loid, make your way toward Villager steadily. Once you get in, you can deal so much damage that you will get the lead. Just get a couple of grab combos and sit pretty at 50%, while canceling Villager's camping attempts.

Now, to deal with him offensively (when he's trying to get to you when you're in the lead)... he'll use Loid + either slingshot over it or run up to shield or dash attack. His grab is laggy so he won't try to grab you unless he sees that you're shielding too much. In this situation I just jump in the air; Luigi's jump is pretty high. If Villager wants to go that high to use slingshot, you just fastfall land and run in to gain space or hit him with Cyclone because he'll make himself vulnerable; his aerial mobility isn't that great so he won't be getting to you this way overall.

Just stay calm in midrange and work your way in with fireballs vs. loids, n-airs vs. slingshots, and jab vs. Villager up close. His best OOS option is n-air, your jab will beat that easily. Jab once on shield, then walk away just a little to avoid the n-air.

It's not an easy matchup but it's not too hard either.

Also, learn Jumpless Cyclone because otherwise you will get Bowling Balled offstage, and that's no fun!

 

[Antonykun]

http://smashboards.com/threads/peach-match-up-thread-sheik-added.373319/

Guys we need to step up our MU

Any ways I wanted to make a full write up on Diddy and Sonic but @ Sonsa covered alot of points so I'll just add to what he said

Diddy:
Fair snuffs Slingshot
Diddy kills earlier
If Diddy d-throw to U-air mash n-air it might help

Sonic:
Its an even matchup...Until you have to land the killing blow then it is a 65:35 MU

Wario:
Pocketing the Bike causes a bit of a Morton's Fork, Don't Use the Bike or use it and never use it again.
Wario's Lingering F-air is a godsend against Villager.

 

[Sonsa]

http://smashboards.com/threads/peach-match-up-thread-sheik-added.373319/

Guys we need to step up our MU

Any ways I wanted to make a full write up on Diddy and Sonic but @ Sonsa covered alot of points so I'll just add to what he said

Diddy:
Fair snuffs Slingshot
Diddy kills earlier
If Diddy d-throw to U-air mash n-air it might help

Sonic:
Its an even matchup...Until you have to land the killing blow then it is a 65:35 MU

Wario:
Pocketing the Bike causes a bit of a Morton's Fork, Don't Use the Bike or use it and never use it again.
Wario's Lingering F-air is a godsend against Villager.

Yeah, we really gatta step it up, I'd also really enjoy a matchup chart with our numbers (50:50, 60:40, etc) with links to our discussions on those characters.

As for those follow up discussions,
Diddy's fair is good, but I think a jump-drift away slingshot could handle it, though, the hit if timed right might have no effect on Diddy. Im not sure though.
Diddy can kill earlier, but I think Villager can potentially gimp him if your execution is good enough, you havta push him off the stage and off his barrels too - Villager has lots of tools for this. Slingshot, bowling ball, even some disjointed and long lasting hitbox turnips.
I can't remember if I covered that, but I agree, if I didn't I definitely meant to, sorry!

As for Sonic... agreed. To kill you might want to send a gyroid to bait a dash attack and then quickly pin em down with a shovel while theyre in endlag? Its very tough. Really try to take him to a stage with walled ledges so you can kill with bowling ball easier.

As for Wario, I don't disagree just cause I don't have enough experience. Ive played this match-up a few times and have never really had trouble keeping my space. Is Wario's fair really that good?

 

[Antonykun]

Wario's F-air is BnB in Neutral Starts on frame 5 and lingers all up till frame 17. The move alone allows Wario to camp from Mid Range (Villager worst range)

 

[Sonsa]

Wario's F-air is BnB in Neutral Starts on frame 5 and lingers all up till frame 17. The move alone allows Wario to camp from Mid Range (Villager worst range)

Ahh, okay... thanks. Maybe try to stay grounded as you build your wall and attempt to punish this with an uptilt?

 

[Antonykun]

Ahh, okay... thanks. Maybe try to stay grounded as you build your wall and attempt to punish this with an uptilt?

Don't forget that air Villager >> grounded Villager If anything you want to stay close to wario and use your frame 3 n-air

 

[Sonsa]

Don't forget that air Villager >> grounded Villager If anything you want to stay close to wario and use your frame 3 n-air

You want to beat it with nair? I don't know. I mean, sure, it could work, but its all situational, my approach could work at times too, they may even expect it less. In any case, I don't think Villager should be the aggressor. Space Wario our and let him come to you. Well... after you get his bike anyway.
Maybe before he gives it up youll want to get close, ready to punish and push him off it. But after that keeping your space should be pretty easy with falling back slingshots and gyroids. Wario's stubby legs and ...I dont want to say "short" range, but, nothing uncontrollable to deal with, should be enough to handle.
So yeah, what was I...? Right! To deal with Wario's forward air approach. Personally, Id prefer to fall back slingshot or stay grounded and maybe jab out of shield if they try fast falling into me expecting a punish. Nair could be a great punish too though if you predict it correctly.

 

[Antonykun]

You want to beat it with nair? I don't know. I mean, sure, it could work, but its all situational, my approach could work at times too, they may even expect it less. In any case, I don't think Villager should be the aggressor. Space Wario our and let him come to you. Well... after you get his bike anyway.
Maybe before he gives it up youll want to get close, ready to punish and push him off it. But after that keeping your space should be pretty easy with falling back slingshots and gyroids. Wario's stubby legs and ...I dont want to say "short" range, but, nothing uncontrollable to deal with, should be enough to handle.
So yeah, what was I...? Right! To deal with Wario's forward air approach. Personally, Id prefer to fall back slingshot or stay grounded and maybe jab out of shield if they try fast falling into me expecting a punish. Nair could be a great punish too though if you predict it correctly.

To tell the truth Wario is more than capable of Camping us out with f-airs and shields (My Wario doesn't camp much tho) and Villager gets alot of reward being in advantage.
If you can get to long/close/top of Slingshot range you should be able to harras him with the slingshot.
Be very careful with your shield, the best you get OOS is a n-air and Wario's Chomp deals reasonable damage, comes out quick, and charges the Waft
Right as I type this i forget about Waft..err be very careful when you are recovering against an at least half charged Wario (it takes about a minute usually less because of Chomp). Atcertain scenarios he doesn't even need Waft he can just B-air you.

It certainly is great to talk about an MU I know about.

 

[Sonsa]

To tell the truth Wario is more than capable of Camping us out with f-airs and shields (My Wario doesn't camp much tho) and Villager gets alot of reward being in advantage.
If you can get to long/close/top of Slingshot range you should be able to harras him with the slingshot.
Be very careful with your shield, the best you get OOS is a n-air and Wario's Chomp deals reasonable damage, comes out quick, and charges the Waft
Right as I type this i forget about Waft..err be very careful when you are recovering against an at least half charged Wario (it takes about a minute usually less because of Chomp). Atcertain scenarios he doesn't even need Waft he can just B-air you.

It certainly is great to talk about an MU I know about.

Discussing MUs is always great! Shares knowledge and spreads awareness.
Hm. Maybe I just haven't been fighting good Wario's Ive never really had trouble like that! Ive always tacked on damage by keeping space and killed with back throws or shovel -> fireworks.
Chomp also, Ive rarely been caught in, keeping my distance. I usually shove a gyroid or umbrella in his mouth.
The waft can be dangerous. Keep your space sure, but sometimes, Warios will chase ya down. They can also try to use their bikes to extend the hitbox. Ive snuck in very quickly, pocketed the bike, and avoided the waft.
Also, if youre really good at using your pocket invincibility, that'd be the time to use it!
Wario's bair is a good move, but could be somewhat predictable. Be careful! Would nair beat that or do ya not think so?

 

[Antonykun]

Discussing MUs is always great! Shares knowledge and spreads awareness.
Hm. Maybe I just haven't been fighting good Wario's Ive never really had trouble like that! Ive always tacked on damage by keeping space and killed with back throws or shovel -> fireworks.
Chomp also, Ive rarely been caught in, keeping my distance. I usually shove a gyroid or umbrella in his mouth.
The waft can be dangerous. Keep your space sure, but sometimes, Warios will chase ya down. They can also try to use their bikes to extend the hitbox. Ive snuck in very quickly, pocketed the bike, and avoided the waft.
Also, if youre really good at using your pocket invincibility, that'd be the time to use it!
Wario's bair is a good move, but could be somewhat predictable. Be careful! Would nair beat that or do ya not think so?

Technically speaking, n-air brats all of Warios moves as it's frame 3 and Wario fastest attacks are frame 4,but there's also spacing and timing involved so...