The Weapon Triangle: Unofficial Ike Matchup Number Topic

[Emblem Lord]

No, sir. I am deadly serious.

I mean it could be better.

But I'll take this one over Yagami's. lolz.

 

[XACE-K]

No, sir. I am deadly serious.

I mean it could be better.

But I'll take this one over Yagami's. lolz.

Oh OK. Than that would make sense.

 

[YagamiLight]

But I'll take this one over Yagami's. lolz.

Numbers aren't really the point of that guide, it's the actual giant articles of text that are significant.

Spoiler

My heart is broken
My numbers are fantastic
Haikus are quite fun

 

[chaos_]

i thought ike kills browser

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

^I think we decided that when we where like "omg grab release pwns but it doesn't work on bowser" now I think that Ike does have the advantage but bowser boards consider Ike to be like one of the 3 good match ups bowser has. Last time I checked anyways.

stuff

Well 1st off don't quote have of my sentences that like if someone says I'm thinking MK is gay then you go and quote "I'm gay".

Why do you keep thinking that squirtle's match up goes along with PTs? ZElda/shiek have 3 diffrent match ups one where they use zelda one where tis shiek and one where its zelda/shiek thats how it is with PT.

Squirtle being able to gimp is not enough because gimping is avoidable. Like I had told you before watergun is pretty much useless since Fair and speed hugging (I think thats the name now) can accomplish the same results a lot better. Not being able to kill is a big deal and if the squirtle never got a save time to transform ivysaur would get Eruption/Fsmash to the face.

I'm thinking that PT should get a match up like that where all 3 are combined though.

stuff again.

MK doesn't have bad aerial range its just Ike has the biggest range in the whole game thanks to his Fair I think. Its not a 6-4 but it could be a 5-5, atm I'm going with 5.5-4.5 D though.

Falco's aerials are better than Ike's and easier to lead into. Falcos Nair is pretty good to and it leads into the jab combo as well. Just Ike's stays out longer. Aether is very odd to land too. you can't use it from the ground you have to hit them while they are in the air and make sure you move the right way so they don't DI out of it. He also has a laser and follow ups to his Dthrow which can get Ike out of his range. Ike isn't as horrible as people think but not everything is 6-4 and 5-5.

Who from the MK, Snake, G&W, or Wario boards has agreed to Even? From every serious MK and Snake player I have talked to, they believe they have the advantage over Ike. I'll ask Hylian about Ike vs G&W later, and I've talked to the Wario guys and they don't think Ike has a large advantage at all. If you are talking about what the Ike players think, then we need to get the other boards in here and get their side of the story as well before we go issuing even numbers without really talking to them.

If you haven't talked to the other boards about matchup numbers or if there are conflicting opinions, then don't post any numbers. Just put a ? mark by it or leave it blank for now. It's better to get it right later than to get it wrong first. That is the approach DanGR is taking to his matchup chart, and it is working well.

Sorry if I sound angry at you guys, I like the fact that each board is working towards a matchup chart, but it is hard to believe some of the new proposed matchup numbers when I haven't seen good character representatives agree on them.

Ubreon has agreed on MK being 5-5 if you want to ride the his better than me so follow his law train.

He said he would change the 5-5 once other boards came in here to argue for them, there is nothing wrong with getting something wrong 1st then right. Its actually a lot better to get something wrong and learn from it rather than wait 2 years to get the right answer. Changing the numbers with a ? is a good idea though.

 

[Brinzy]

Well 1st off don't quote have of my sentences that like if someone says I'm thinking MK is gay then you go and quote "I'm gay".

You're gonna tell me how debates work like you made the law on them and then you have the nerve to tell me how to quote? The difference between your example and mine is that "MK is gay" and "I'm gay" are two completely different messages. You don't chop off complete thoughts to make your own. I never cut off a complete thought of yours and twisted it for something else.

Why do you keep thinking that squirtle's match up goes along with PTs? ZElda/shiek have 3 diffrent match ups one where they use zelda one where tis shiek and one where its zelda/shiek thats how it is with PT.

No it's not. That's not how it is with PT. You can choose to fight with just Zelda, with just Sheik, or with both of them. You don't have a choice with PT, and a matchup of... say, 50:50, means that character A should win half of the matches and character B should win the other half. Squirtle doesn't win matches. Pokemon Trainer does. Squirtle's match-up goes along with PT because PT is all three of them and Squirtle will enter every single serious match, even if to just come out after Zard dies and to be Down B'd. You won't see Sheik in 95% of my Zelda matches, but others won't use Zelda and some use both, so of course you'd probably rank all three of them. There are no fights where PT will use only one Pokemon the entire time.

It is understandable why people rank each Pokemon on their own... however, they don't take into consideration what those match-up numbers mean and then what PT is. A 3-stock match with Ike being 5:5 with Charizard = Charizard is out 100% of the time in 10 matches and wins 5 of them. That doesn't happen.

Squirtle being able to gimp is not enough because gimping is avoidable. Like I had told you before watergun is pretty much useless since Fair and speed hugging (I think thats the name now) can accomplish the same results a lot better.

Uh... killing moves are avoidable. Does that mean they get penalized? No. Gimps are avoidable, but they still exist and should not be penalized because they're not a sure thing. It's not a sure thing that you can gimp Ike with characters who are good at it, so does this mean that it's minimized because they won't gimp all the time?

Pretty sure a Water Gun off the stage wherever Ike is will usually be enough to push him out of Aether range, considering you're getting close enough for it to push him back... and then you can just make it back to the edge, because you will make it back before Ike does for the most part, unless you screw up. Again, as I said, it's not really that good of a move, but it's not useless.

Not being able to kill is a big deal and if the squirtle never got a save time to transform ivysaur would get Eruption/Fsmash to the face.

Undeniably, I don't make the best decisions when it comes to transforming/changing Pokemon because sometimes I expect it to load at a certain rate and it really takes a bit longer than expected, so I get hit. However... if Squirtle never got a save time to transform, why would Ivysaur be getting hit? Squirtle goes to Ivy after a D-throw or any other move that pushes Ike away far enough or when he dies.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

You're gonna

ok

No it's not. That's not how it is with PT. You can choose to fight with just Zelda, with just Sheik, or with both of them. You don't have a choice with PT, and a matchup of... say, 50:50, means that character A should win half of the matches and character B should win the other half. Squirtle doesn't win matches. Pokemon Trainer does. Squirtle's match-up goes along with PT because PT is all three of them and Squirtle will enter every single serious match, even if to just come out after Zard dies and to be Down B'd. You won't see Sheik in 95% of my Zelda matches, but others won't use Zelda and some use both, so of course you'd probably rank all three of them. There are no fights where PT will use only one Pokemon the entire time.

It is understandable why people rank each Pokemon on their own... however, they don't take into consideration what those match-up numbers mean and then what PT is. A 3-stock match with Ike being 5:5 with Charizard = Charizard is out 100% of the time in 10 matches and wins 5 of them. That doesn't happen.

Idk why there couldn't be a person who uses squirtle only. If people are willing to main ganon why not 1 pokemon alone? A lot of people choose to opt 1 pokemon by changing as soon as it comes out. This guy I fought today skipped squirtle once his charizard died. If you where to do 30 1 stock matches against PT charizard could be out 100% of the time if chosen to. (30 so its the same amount of stocks.)

Uh... killing moves are avoidable. Does that mean they get penalized? No. Gimps are avoidable, but they still exist and should not be penalized because they're not a sure thing. It's not a sure thing that you can gimp Ike with characters who are good at it, so does this mean that it's minimized because they won't gimp all the time?

Pretty sure a Water Gun off the stage wherever Ike is will usually be enough to push him out of Aether range, considering you're getting close enough for it to push him back... and then you can just make it back to the edge, because you will make it back before Ike does for the most part, unless you screw up. Again, as I said, it's not really that good of a move, but it's not useless.

Killing moves are avoidable yes but Ike doesn't just rely on killing moves especially against squirtle. Having only one of them would put Ike at a bigger disadvantage. Things being avoidable do get penalized thats why you here of save kill moves and unsafe ones. Ike can gimp too but people rarely take that into account.

When Ike is coming back to aether on the ledge he should have his second jump and not use it till right before he aethers. If you water gun here it won't work since Ike will still be able to make it back. If his second jump can't bring him back then a speed hug would have worked better. I'm discarding it because every character in the game can gimp Ike as well as squirtle's water gun if not better.

Undeniably, I don't make the best decisions when it comes to transforming/changing Pokemon because sometimes I expect it to load at a certain rate and it really takes a bit longer than expected, so I get hit. However... if Squirtle never got a save time to transform, why would Ivysaur be getting hit? Squirtle goes to Ivy after a D-throw or any other move that pushes Ike away far enough or when he dies.

If squirtle transforms despise not having a save opportunity to do it Ivysaur will wish it was cuba. transforming into Ivysaur at high percents also leaves you vulnerable, having the ability to switch out chars doesn't only cover your previous characters weaknesses it also adds new ones.

 

[Deleted member]

you people argue too much. charge fsmashes @ MK.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

dk neutral? i usually find ike's pretty easy since i'm as strong as them, and faster, with better recovery. they're also pretty easy to gimp. given, ike's really disjointed and that can hurt a bit but i don't see what makes it neutral, i'd think its like 6:4 dk

 

[Ussi]

Well, DK is easy to gimp as well (Dtilt or dair) Our jab is faster than you and cancels DK's Up-B, jab, and ftilt. DK can't defend in front of himself too well in the air against Ike for his fair is too laggy and if DK starts it early Ike can counter. Sure if you have a Charged DK Punch you can use that to protect the front. Bair can be outranged (Not neglecting its speed though) just saying it can. Also Ike can combo DK to 0-50% with a dair combo(dair > dair > something[correct me if i'm wrong]) if you're not careful ;o. CSS can be teched...can be. CDT I forget if that works 100%. Up B has major lag when landing on the ground (Unless you get that sweetspot)


And just because you have an easy time, doesn't mean it determines the match up

 

[Wyvern-x]

Bringing this back. Updated.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I think the PT boards agreed that squirtle is at a 70-30 D against Ike. Not 100% sure but they did say he was the one that did worse against Ike. Then we found the chain grab on him soo lol.

 

[YagamiLight]

I think the PT boards agreed that squirtle is at a 70-30 D against Ike. Not 100% sure but they did say he was the one that did worse against Ike. Then we found the chain grab on him soo lol.

The CG leads into a free Fair which is quite deadly as well.

75-25, maybe?

 

[Wyvern-x]

Their matchup chart says 55-45 Squirtle's favor...

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm hoping that's just outdated...

EDIT: Wait, Pit is 3:7 D?

 

[MysticKenji]

Their matchup chart says 55-45 Squirtle's favor...

They must have forgotten that we DDD them.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

wario should be 4-6.

I really hope that thing is out dated because saying squirtle is the worse match up against Ike and having it as a neutral is just ignorant.

 

[Wyvern-x]

EDIT: Wait, Pit is 3:7 D?

Pit has too many ways of gimping Ike. How many of you think it's 6.5-3.5?

 

[Guilhe]

Their matchup chart says 55-45 Squirtle's favor...

I’m still impressed by their hypocrisy. I remember they bragging about their guests always claim advantage over all their Pokémons for the sake of the matchup. And even after we’ve argument how Squirtle was in severe disadvantage against Ike (and that was before the grab release discoveries) they simply ignore all evidences and pull matchup ratios out of their *****.

Matchup ratios really get on my nerves. I don’t think this thread is going to get us anywhere fast, this thread is flooding with crapy ratios.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's better here than the endless squabble on the match-up guide.

 

[XBart-ManX]

to tell you truth, Ike can almost defeat anyone if the Ike player knows his timing on his attack.
As we all know,some of his attacks are laggy,but he has 2 effective moves that are not laggy: Jab Cancel and Combat Walk.well the 2nd one is not a very effective one, but if you know how to use it, you will be unstoppable....

 

[Ussi]

........fail

 

[HeroMystic]

lol @ Ussi.

At least the thread got bumped.

 

[•Col•]

At least his post was good for something-- a lol.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

bartman hay alguna posibilidad de que seas de chihuahua chihuahua? Voy así allá para navidad y tengo muchas ganas de jugar con los smashers de allá. La ultima ves fui a une centre de video juegos pero me la pase jugando contra las computadoras por que nadie me reta va. Tambien se me paso un torneo en Torreón porque me regrese al el paso.

Ojala hayan torneos ahora que regreso.

edit: to be on topic I think the old list before it got bumped was more accurate than this new one.

 

[Ussi]

Burrito what did you say? >_>

Google is being stupid and saying you said this:

bartman there is any possibility that you are of chihuahua chihuahua? I'm going well beyond Christmas and I am very keen to play with the smashers there. The last look I went to join the center of the video games but I go by playing against the computers that no one will challenge me. Also, I step into a tournament because I return to Torreon step.

Ojala tournaments have now returned.

 

[Wyvern-x]

edit: to be on topic I think the old list before it got bumped was more accurate than this new one.

Which matchups?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

link should be a 4.5-5.5 they seem to agree on that one. Lucario should be .5 more in his favor. Pikachu should be closer to neutral or neutral Ussi knows that one really well since he mains both characters. Samus is our advantage the samus boards agree and I think they have it as a 6.5-3.5 Ike. Wario should be a 4-6 D and zelda a 4-6 A at least. Zelda boards seem to agree on that.


edit: I was just talking about going to chichuahua chihuahua for the holidays. Smashmex came down which is like the SWF for mexico even though it doesn't have as many people and the last post in the mexico thread in the regional zones was like a month ago so I felt like asking him.

 

[Ussi]

Pikachu is 45/55 at best. If it feels 50/50 most likely the pikachu does not know how completely to fight Ike.

 

[Guilhe]

From what I’ve experienced, fighting Olimar or DDD with Ike is like hitting the head against a wall: Pointless. 80-20 disadvantage.

 

[Ussi]

DDD is not impossible. But Olimar yes.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I've thought of olimar being a 80-20 a few times too.











80-20 Ike that is!!



jking but idk is it really that bad? shouldn't we make it a 75-25 first?

 

[YagamiLight]

What is with this "Olimar is impossible!" feeling that's going around, seriously?

Dash attack and Nair to great success.

 

[Ussi]

I fought a skilled player today who challenged my Ike with olimar. I won 2-0 LOL. He doesn't main olimar though.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

It's not as simple as that yagami. You should really do the 1 hour drive for a good tournament so you can know what the rest of us are talking about.

 

[YagamiLight]

It's not as simple as that yagami. You should really do the 1 hour drive for a good tournament so you can know what the rest of us are talking about.

Ouch, low blow. (It's one and a half, to be precise.)

Anyways it's obviously not that simple, but I don't like this mentality of calling match-ups instantly "impossible", so I just said something. I'd like to review, whenever you guys feel is a good date, the Falco, Dedede and Olimar match-ups to realize just how bad they are.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Sorry but its just that experience in a tournament internment is a big deal. Still one and a half is no biggy you should find people to car pool for some big tournament like once a month hell I'm going to do an 8 hour drive next month because NM and AZ don't host anything =\.

Let's do it on wensday I'll get a lot of Olimar and Falco pratice on tuesday and come back with some new thoughts.

The IDC already reviewed DDD and we actually came up with it being 65-35 but we can go into more detail with more people if you want. There are some impossible match ups though just look at pikachu and fox.

 

[HeroMystic]

I play against an Olimar main, and it's not impossible at all, but ****, it's hard if you're not careful throughout the entire match.

DDD's harder imo.

 

[YagamiLight]

Sorry but its just that experience in a tournament internment is a big deal. Still one and a half is no biggy you should find people to car pool for some big tournament like once a month hell I'm going to do an 8 hour drive next month because NM and AZ don't host anything =\.

Let's do it on wensday I'll get a lot of Olimar and Falco pratice on tuesday and come back with some new thoughts.

The IDC already reviewed DDD and we actually came up with it being 65-35 but we can go into more detail with more people if you want. There are some impossible match ups though just look at pikachu and fox.

Yeah, now that college apps are over I'll look into getting out farther for tourneys and whatnot.

Sure, Wednesday is fine with me. We'll hold a giant conference (haha) in the match-up topic. And we'll do Dedede, Olimar and Falco just as a set, I think it's best that everyone contributes to it. And I am also aware of impossible match-ups (Pikachu v Fox, Dedede v DK, etc), I just don't think Ike has any of them.

 

[Ussi]

how does that olimar main do in tourneys hero?

Remember skill matters.. I'm thinking Olimar being 30/70 though. it's not like anyone can pick up Olimar and **** Ike like Falco can so.. Yea.