The Weapon Triangle: Unofficial Ike Matchup Number Topic

[Rykoshet]

Pit is an easy 3-7D honestly, a character that forces you to recover a certain way is bad mojo.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I don't know anything about the pit match up but I'm going to go ahead and agree with fox being 6-4 A or at least 5.5 because I don't see anything that fox has against Ike besides being able to juggle him a bit. Shine spike has already been said by me and ryko to be useless and Idk of another way to gimp Ike with fox.

I think Ivysaur and squirtile should actually both be 6-4 Maybe even 7-3 A.

Squirtle actually has problems against people with disjointed hist boxes and ranged attacks (not sure if thats like projectiles or a long close up range though) plus is like the 2nd lightest character IIRC. The watergun isn't very good either as the push back hardly does anything. Only time you will die is if you where cutting it close to getting back to the stage in which case a simple edge hug would do. He also has trouble getting kills and Ike can be hard to kill unless your gimping him.

Ivysaur Has a few things going against Ike like the projectile and an easy way to build up damage upon a shield but thats all I can see. With his horrible recovery he can't risk trying to gimp Ike and at most edge hog him. If done wrong an aetherspike can lead into a sure kill at any % just like with Olimar. His recovery is worse than Ikes and extremely easy to edge guard. If he is forced to use his ^B then you pretty much killed him already. He is also very light, and his attacks have a good bit of post lag so landing a Jab cancel U tilt shouldn't be a problem.

I think Squirtle is 7-3 A and Ivysaur 6-4 A just because of the projectile.

 

[Brinzy]

Correct me ASAP on any Ike info I get wrong.

As for the throws killing with out DI shouldn't even be mentioned because I think all throws are incredibly easy to DI you just have to start holding a direction when your grabbed and once you see which throw it is you just adjust it a bit.

Forcing into the aether recovery is also something not worth mentioning as Ike should be using aether 99% of the time. I suppose I was wrong on the PKF thing though. I was sort of thinking out loud.

I believe that you should mention without DI. Why? This means that at said position in a real match, there is a 100% chance of dying from it at said damage... meaning you KNOW you'll die there. Fine, include DI then. Ike dies at nearly 100% if he DI's downward accidentally, because that puts him out of range of the ledge.

Aether recovery is worth mentioning when someone has a special that can lead into a dair and a special that KOs at horrifically low %s when fully charged. I suppose you're right about the fact that he should always use Aether to recover anyway.

Ness 3.5-6.5 D Ness can't be worse than Lucas. That's just not true. In fact I think Ness is 5-5. The only thing he's got on Ike is a projectile game. However, Ike can just grab release to jab-cancel and re-grab. So like AA, cancel, grab, grab attack until release, A (/AA) cancel, regrab etc... Only air release is a real problem with this but might even help to get an usmash or something in.
Also, do remember that where Lucas his PK thunder can kill you easily, Ness will actually send you towards the stage and you'll survive.

It might not be as bad as Lucas, but I can't see the matchup being even. Also, is it impossible to DI away from jabs after taking hits? Can Ike really do what you said he could? This would be news to me. Even if that were the case... you can't keep that up forever, and that said, taking what you've posted to me and assuming it's 100% correct, I don't see why that's grounds for an even matchup. 3-7 Lucas to 5-5 Ness, and the only two differences are PKT and a grab release? As I said before, Ness can predict Aether recovery and kill you with PK Flash (or do a fair bit of damage). It's incredibly easy to do, in my opinion. Lucas can do the same to a lesser extent, but PK Thunder is best for him anyway. PKF can be used as well, and that can lead to an easy spike because aerial PKF generally disrupts the opponent a bit more than grounded PKF (the hitbox of PKF is wider at the bottom, and it falls, thus keeping the hitbox on you unless you hit someone with the very bottom of it).

Ness's aerials kill far better than Lucas's do and his throws kill a bit better than Lucas's do (hell, unless I'm totally mistaken here, if you grab Ike at the very edge of some stages, f-throw at 0%, and he DI's so he goes sideways, he might not make it back). I don't think he's that much worse on Ike than Lucas is, but even match? I disagree.

.

I think Ivysaur and squirtile should actually both be 6-4 Maybe even 7-3 A.

Squirtle actually has problems against people with disjointed hist boxes and ranged attacks (not sure if thats like projectiles or a long close up range though) plus is like the 2nd lightest character IIRC. The watergun isn't very good either as the push back hardly does anything. Only time you will die is if you where cutting it close to getting back to the stage in which case a simple edge hug would do. He also has trouble getting kills and Ike can be hard to kill unless your gimping him.

Ivysaur Has a few things going against Ike like the projectile and an easy way to build up damage upon a shield but thats all I can see. With his horrible recovery he can't risk trying to gimp Ike and at most edge hog him. If done wrong an aetherspike can lead into a sure kill at any % just like with Olimar. His recovery is worse than Ikes and extremely easy to edge guard. If he is forced to use his ^B then you pretty much killed him already. He is also very light, and his attacks have a good bit of post lag so landing a Jab cancel U tilt shouldn't be a problem.

I think Squirtle is 7-3 A and Ivysaur 6-4 A just because of the projectile.

lol...

Squirtle is the same as anyone without a projectile when it comes to answering to a projectile. You dodge and get closer. Here's the thing - he's faster and he can crouch below a lot of projectiles. Projectiles aren't the issue, but it's disjointedness, and that said, characters with tons of disjointed hitboxes don't always beat Squirtle). As for Ike, all Squirtle has to do is wait for Ike to miss an attack and then Squirtle can follow up with a jab combo, ftilt to a combo, utilt a bit into a combo, or use his aerials and knock Ike back at least twice because his fair comes out way faster than all of Ike's except for bair, and rarely will Squirtle's fair challenge Ike's bair.

Water Gun to cover the ledge during Aether = bye bye Ike. Has this never happened to you? To minimize the threat, you'd have to recover in a way where he'd grab the ledge at the apex of his Aether, and if I'm not mistaken, that's a possible edgehog right there.

As for trouble getting kills, Squirtle is designed to be a gimper, not a powerhouse to knock you off screen at 30%. He does that easily enough. Run off the edge and fair/nair Ike. If Ike can make it back even after an aerial or whatever, then Squirtle should use Water Gun instead. Otherwise, it's an easy gimp, easier than most characters in my opinion. Squirtle's Dthrow is also a killing move, and his Usmash can kill at decent %s, but even though those are his best flat out killing moves, as I said, he's not designed for that. He's there to jab you, tilt you, weave in and out of attacks, and just be annoying. That said, Ike can knock him out in a few hits. This is not 7-3 for Ike. No idea what Squirtle's you've been facing. I'd face you myself it I had a working GCN controller (not saying that I'd beat you for sure or anything, just that the match-up is not tilted into Ike's favor that heavily, if at all).

Ivysaur also shouldn't be disadvantaged. It's not hard to edgehog Ike with Ivysaur, no sir. Look at 1:28. Ignore the skill level and all. I just want you to see how you edgehog Ike with Ivy. He could've made it back, but he wanted to edgehog me and it backfired. That's all I wanted to show. It could've backfired, but all you have to do is get out of Aether range and Up B. Ivysaur's tether range is HUGE, and he can always grab the ledge farther than Ike can Aether it.

Also, nobody seems to realize that Ivysaur can employ similar strategies as everyone else. What I do when I, as Ivy, get knocked off the stage:

- I hold towards the stage WITHOUT double jumping

- When I am in tether range (or approaching it), I double jump + Razor Leaf

- A very, very short moment later after Razor Leaf reaches my opponent, I Up B.

It works every single time so long as Ivy's Razor Leaf reaches his opponent, and as long as you don't wait forever to try and Up B. What happens is tRazor Leaf takes you off of the ledge and Ivy grabs it for himself. If you're not hanging on with a tether, there's really nothing you can do. Take the hit so Ivy can get the ledge, or try to evade it... and give Ivy the ledge. I guess you can always drop down and hit Ivy, but yeah, it takes a split second to tether the ledge + pull yourself up, so good luck with that. The only way you can't do anything at all is if your double jump (or lack of one) will not place you horizontally even with your opponent). And if all else fails, Ivy can attempt a stagespike with Vine Whip. His recovery is still bad, but not as bad as people think it is.

Ivy isn't lightweight. He's mid, but I guess to the Ragnell that doesn't mean anything. He also has comparable range to Ike. Bair has excellent range, and although it is weak, that move is very safe to use. Edgeguard with it or just stop an opponent's aerial attack with it. Uair packs quite a punch, but I don't know if Uair goes through Ike's dair. Probably not, but it's still a dangerous move to get hit by, and it keeps Ivy relatively safe. The rest of the aerials are nothing special here. Just know that fair can kill and nair can lead into Bullet Seed.

I don't like Ivy's smashes too much in this match-up. One places Ivy in danger if he whiffs it and the other opponent was bringing out his/her own move, one is fairly bad (but has good range), and the other is telegraphed as hell (but powerful). The tilts are much better. Utilt is a typical "get in the air" move, ftilt racks up damage and is one of Ivy's key spacing attacks, and dtilt DOES kill, as it sends the opponent across horizontally as if you were hit by an average ftilt... except it has more range than the average ftilt. I wouldn't mind settling for something like even with Ivy, even though I think he has an advantage here, but disadvantaged? Nah...

Of course, I would like some counter-arguments to be formed. Also, don't write me off just because I have a PT sprite. I use him, but he's not my main, and I won't BS anything from any of my characters... well, not for the most part.

 

[Empy]

It might not be as bad as Lucas, but I can't see the matchup being even. Also, is it impossible to DI away from jabs after taking hits? Can Ike really do what you said he could? This would be news to me. Even if that were the case... you can't keep that up forever, and that said, taking what you've posted to me and assuming it's 100% correct, I don't see why that's grounds for an even matchup. 3-7 Lucas to 5-5 Ness, and the only two differences are PKT and a grab release? As I said before, Ness can predict Aether recovery and kill you with PK Flash (or do a fair bit of damage). It's incredibly easy to do, in my opinion. Lucas can do the same to a lesser extent, but PK Thunder is best for him anyway. PKF can be used as well, and that can lead to an easy spike because aerial PKF generally disrupts the opponent a bit more than grounded PKF (the hitbox of PKF is wider at the bottom, and it falls, thus keeping the hitbox on you unless you hit someone with the very bottom of it).

Ness's aerials kill far better than Lucas's do and his throws kill a bit better than Lucas's do (hell, unless I'm totally mistaken here, if you grab Ike at the very edge of some stages, f-throw at 0%, and he DI's so he goes sideways, he might not make it back). I don't think he's that much worse on Ike than Lucas is, but even match? I disagree.

No there are way more differences I just didn't go into it too deep cause I didn't really expect people to disagree. PK flash can't kill or edgeguard Ike, even if you hit with it let's say once every 3 matches it's still the Ike messing up.

The grab release thing is really useful but works on Lucas as well, it does get in a fair amount of damage, of course 1 can get out of it but you'd have to predict the Ike pretty well. The first jab has a set knock-back and you can't DI it. You could shield it of course and then sidestep the grab, but if Ike goes AAA the last hit of the jab combo can hit you right out of your sidestep. It's not something that definitively has to work but it leaves Ike with a lot of options. This works on Ness and Lucas a bit better for the same reason those release chaingrabs work.

Also Ness his smash moves aren't as good and his fsmash isn't nearly as useful as a killing move. And Ike should be able to dash> usmash and use the crouching to go under Ness so the PKF can't hit him. All in all I guess both Ness and Lucas wouldn't be too hard, if it wasn't for Lucas being able to kill Ike so easily.

Ivysaur also shouldn't be disadvantaged. It's not hard to edgehog Ike with Ivysaur, no sir. Look at 1:28. Ignore the skill level and all. I just want you to see how you edgehog Ike with Ivy. He could've made it back, but he wanted to edgehog me and it backfired. That's all I wanted to show. It could've backfired, but all you have to do is get out of Aether range and Up B. Ivysaur's tether range is HUGE, and he can always grab the ledge farther than Ike can Aether it.

I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. We're looking to see how match-ups are at the highest level of play. Really, that Ike should have known to land on the edge if he misses you. Also, this really doesn't say anything about how you edgehog Ike with Ivy. If the Ike wouldn't be spamming the same stuff in a set pattern, he could've noticed the Ivy coming of the stage, hit him with the start of Aether and just land on the stage itself. You can also tell this Ike can't recover from any type of move, the second stock he just floats right into the opponents attack and the opponent could've been any character using any move, so it really doesn't say much.

No Ivy his lack of a useful projectiel, his lack of priority, his slow moves and his horrible recovery really break him.

Also, nobody seems to realize that Ivysaur can employ similar strategies as everyone else. What I do when I, as Ivy, get knocked off the stage:

- I hold towards the stage WITHOUT double jumping

- When I am in tether range (or approaching it), I double jump + Razor Leaf

- A very, very short moment later after Razor Leaf reaches my opponent, I Up B.

It works every single time so long as Ivy's Razor Leaf reaches his opponent, and as long as you don't wait forever to try and Up B. What happens is tRazor Leaf takes you off of the ledge and Ivy grabs it for himself. If you're not hanging on with a tether, there's really nothing you can do. Take the hit so Ivy can get the ledge, or try to evade it... and give Ivy the ledge. I guess you can always drop down and hit Ivy, but yeah, it takes a split second to tether the ledge + pull yourself up, so good luck with that. The only way you can't do anything at all is if your double jump (or lack of one) will not place you horizontally even with your opponent). And if all else fails, Ivy can attempt a stagespike with Vine Whip. His recovery is still bad, but not as bad as people think it is.

That simply won't work. You can just wait for the Ivy to razor leaf and then edgehog, and roll back as he tries to up b. Additionally, if you hit Ivy off you can follow him to fair, forcing him to either use an airdodge or a razor leaf already, so he doesn't have time to do another and an upB later on.

 

[DarkDefeater]

Recently, I had a really difficult time with Wolf. He kept spamming his blaster and retreating. There was little I could do.
I actually won, but only because he got careless and self-destructed. Any tips?

 

[Deleted member]

I think wolf and DDD are Ike's only bad matches. good luck.

 

[XACE-K]

Recently, I had a really difficult time with Wolf. He kept spamming his blaster and retreating. There was little I could do.
I actually won, but only because he got careless and self-destructed. Any tips?

Just force him to try and attack you. If he keeps spamming, he just sucks.

I think wolf and DDD are Ike's only bad matches. good luck.

DDD I can understand but Wolf? I don't find him really hard. But the people you play against could be a factor in who you think is easy or hard.

 

[Wyvern-x]

Updated a few things.

I agree with D3, but I find campy Falcos harder than Wolf.

 

[Deleted member]

wolf has the tools to camp ike much better than falco does.

falco isn't too bad.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Correct me ASAP on any Ike info I get wrong.



I believe that you should mention without DI. Why? This means that at said position in a real match, there is a 100% chance of dying from it at said damage... meaning you KNOW you'll die there. Fine, include DI then. Ike dies at nearly 100% if he DI's downward accidentally, because that puts him out of range of the ledge.

Ness's aerials kill far better than Lucas's do and his throws kill a bit better than Lucas's do (hell, unless I'm totally mistaken here, if you grab Ike at the very edge of some stages, f-throw at 0%, and he DI's so he goes sideways, he might not make it back). I don't think he's that much worse on Ike than Lucas is, but even match? I disagree.

Talking about DIing the wrong way doesn't help you get a better match up as match up's are based on using both characters at there maximum level of play. If you DI a jab combo wrong you can DIE at 16% lets just make every match up 10-0 A for Ike with this logic.

lol...

Squirtle is the same as anyone without a projectile when it comes to answering to a projectile. You dodge and get closer. Here's the thing - he's faster and he can crouch below a lot of projectiles. Projectiles aren't the issue, but it's disjointedness, and that said, characters with tons of disjointed hitboxes don't always beat Squirtle). As for Ike, all Squirtle has to do is wait for Ike to miss an attack and then Squirtle can follow up with a jab combo, ftilt to a combo, utilt a bit into a combo, or use his aerials and knock Ike back at least twice because his fair comes out way faster than all of Ike's except for bair, and rarely will Squirtle's fair challenge Ike's bair.

Water Gun to cover the ledge during Aether = bye bye Ike. Has this never happened to you? To minimize the threat, you'd have to recover in a way where he'd grab the ledge at the apex of his Aether, and if I'm not mistaken, that's a possible edgehog right there.

As for trouble getting kills, Squirtle is designed to be a gimper, not a powerhouse to knock you off screen at 30%. He does that easily enough. Run off the edge and fair/nair Ike. If Ike can make it back even after an aerial or whatever, then Squirtle should use Water Gun instead. Otherwise, it's an easy gimp, easier than most characters in my opinion. Squirtle's Dthrow is also a killing move, and his Usmash can kill at decent %s, but even though those are his best flat out killing moves, as I said, he's not designed for that. He's there to jab you, tilt you, weave in and out of attacks, and just be annoying. That said, Ike can knock him out in a few hits. This is not 7-3 for Ike. No idea what Squirtle's you've been facing. I'd face you myself it I had a working GCN controller (not saying that I'd beat you for sure or anything, just that the match-up is not tilted into Ike's favor that heavily, if at all).

Well that whole 1st paragraph tilts the match up in Ike's favor a bit more as his close combat range is huge and he has disjointed hit boxes. Not only that but Ike can string moves together as well, Maybe you can do it to Ike at higher percents but you also need a higher percent to kill him.

The watergun aether has happened to me less than getting edge hugged so thats why Its pretty much useless. When going for the ledge you are supposed to make it so you reach at your apex so you don't get spiked, smashed, or pushed by water. Not only that but (I'm assuming stage strike system is being used like the SBR recommends) Squirtle can get hit by the sword of aether unless he is using watergun at its max range in which case it may not be enough to push Ike to his death. Watergun only kills you when your already cutting it close other wise its a mistake on Ike's part.

being able to anoy your opponent doesn't win you the match up if it did pit would be above metankight. Maybe thats a good thing if your going to build up damage with squirtle and then switch to ivysaur to land the kill like shiek/zelda mains do but if we are talking about the squirtle match up alone then its a big deal not being able to get kills.

I still think this is a 7-3 match up. Besides gimping there doesn't seem anything going for squirtle. Empy already answered your things on ivysaur so I still think that one is 6-4.

 

[Brinzy]

No there are way more differences I just didn't go into it too deep cause I didn't really expect people to disagree. PK flash can't kill or edgeguard Ike, even if you hit with it let's say once every 3 matches it's still the Ike messing up.

That's not true. Once Ness knocks you off of the stage, it takes very, very simple timing to hit him at the apex of Aether. If you want to recover at a different height with Aether, you just have to time it when he's going up or down. The Ike doesn't have to mess up to get hit by it, because his recovery is so limited and telegraphed.

The grab release thing is really useful but works on Lucas as well, it does get in a fair amount of damage, of course 1 can get out of it but you'd have to predict the Ike pretty well. The first jab has a set knock-back and you can't DI it. You could shield it of course and then sidestep the grab, but if Ike goes AAA the last hit of the jab combo can hit you right out of your sidestep. It's not something that definitively has to work but it leaves Ike with a lot of options. This works on Ness and Lucas a bit better for the same reason those release chaingrabs work.

If you can spotdodge it, you can probably perfect shield -> roll away from it, right?

Also Ness his smash moves aren't as good and his fsmash isn't nearly as useful as a killing move. And Ike should be able to dash> usmash and use the crouching to go under Ness so the PKF can't hit him. All in all I guess both Ness and Lucas wouldn't be too hard, if it wasn't for Lucas being able to kill Ike so easily.

They're not as good for killing, admittedly. However, the bat kills at roughly the same damages as the stick does. The difference is that Ness trades a powerful Usmash and Dsmash for his yo-yos (which CAN still kill, notably Dsmash) for stronger aerials and stronger throws. He doesn't need to rely on his smash attacks to get kills. Lucas's aerials aren't the best for killing. Bair requires a special sweetspot, dair is a comparatively weak meteor (both can be canceled anyway), uair sends you up at an angle, which makes Ness's better for killing anyway, fair shouldn't kill you earlier than anything else unless you get edgeguarded by it, and nair doesn't kill. All of Ness's aerials are reliable killing moves, so to say that his Fsmash (which isn't actually drastically slower than Lucas's and is actually STRONGER) isn't as useful isn't really placing Ness at a significant disadvantage.

You don't base your game off of PKF. Crouching under PKF to get an Usmash? If you try that against any competent Ness player, they can just grab you right there, or they can shield/dodge Usmash and punish you immediately.

I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. We're looking to see how match-ups are at the highest level of play.

That's nice, but the point of the video was to show a way that Ike can be edgehogged by Ivysaur, not, "OMG THIS IS HOW IT WORKS, IVY WINS!" Had I put that in text, nobody would've believed me on that happening. Besides, who wouldn't try to edgehog Ivysaur? That's something that would happen at the highest levels of play.

Really, that Ike should have known to land on the edge if he misses you.

He tried to edgehog me, not hit me.

Also, this really doesn't say anything about how you edgehog Ike with Ivy. If the Ike wouldn't be spamming the same stuff in a set pattern, he could've noticed the Ivy coming of the stage, hit him with the start of Aether and just land on the stage itself.

Uh, at 9%, the hitstun of what, one or two hits of Aether when going up is virtually non-existent. He would've still been edgehogged. I would've been hit (and I'm already IN the sweetspotting area) and that wouldn't have done anything to me because Ike would not have made it back anyway if he Aether'd earlier.

You can also tell this Ike can't recover from any type of move, the second stock he just floats right into the opponents attack and the opponent could've been any character using any move, so it really doesn't say much.

Once again, notice that I never said, "This is how Ivysaur beats Ike." That's why I wanted you to ignore the rest of the video, but you went out and assumed what I told you to not do and you didn't focus primarily on what I wanted to show. I'll reiterate - Ivysaur can edgeguard Ike fairly well, despite the fact that people think a tether character can't play off-stage.

That simply won't work. You can just wait for the Ivy to razor leaf and then edgehog

No you can't. Razor Leaf the person on stage. Razor Leaf at the edge so the edge is covered by your hitbox as your Vine Whip grabs it. You can't just wait for it, because you Up B when Razor Leaf is right there. For your situation to happen, you'd have to grab the edge RIGHT before Razor Leaf gets to you, and a perfectly thrown Razor Leaf will cover the edge and anyone who tries to walk off and grab the ledge.

and roll back as he tries to up b.

That would be giving the ledge to Ivysaur.

Additionally, if you hit Ivy off you can follow him to fair, forcing him to either use an airdodge or a razor leaf already, so he doesn't have time to do another and an upB later on.

Follow him to fair? Do you realize that you can be a bit ABOVE the stage with Ivy and still tether the ledge? As soon as you tether, you're going to swing straight down. The most you can do is drop down and Aether, hoping for a stagespike.

Talking about DIing the wrong way doesn't help you get a better match up as match up's are based on using both characters at there maximum level of play.

I'm sorry, but does that not fall PERFECTLY in line with what I've been saying? To DI Ness's b-throw right would be to either 1) not DI at all (because you get thrown at a 45 degree angle) or 2) DI in the direction that keeps you alive longest. The problem with this? Ike will not live past whatever damage I gave you unless Ness is b-throwing from one end of FD to the opposite blast zone. Period. DIing "right" will not let Ike survive at whatever % I gave earlier, which I'm sure isn't perfect, but I haven't checked it yet.

If you DI a jab combo wrong you can DIE at 16% lets just make every match up 10-0 A for Ike with this logic.

Or, let's go with my logic. "For a sure kill, b-throw Ike at this %. DIing it at all will not help you because said % is, as I just said, a SURE %."

Well that whole 1st paragraph tilts the match up in Ike's favor a bit more as his close combat range is huge and he has disjointed hit boxes. Not only that but Ike can string moves together as well, Maybe you can do it to Ike at higher percents but you also need a higher percent to kill him.

I say it's 6-4 Ike, not 7-3, This alone is why I give Ike an advantage. Squirtle is not a killer as it stands. I guess you have to rate Squirtle alone for the fight, but the nature of PT should suggest otherwise, because... well, that's how it works. He still has a Down B, much like Zelda/Sheik do. I don't understand why people do Zelda, Sheik, and Zelda/Sheik but only one of each of the Pokemon when they're rated as a whole in the end in the first place. (Not to mention they're based off of averages, which is ********, and I'll explain why.)

If you kill Squirtle, that's it. No more Squirtle until/unless the opponent brings him out again. If Squirtle decides to fight you in CONJUNCTION with Ivysaur, then the match-up shouldn't be 6.5 - 3.5 Ike. It should be better than that for PT because you now eliminate Squirtle's issue of having to get a kill and you have a fresh Ivysaur to work with, who has a ton of killing moves, both in raw power and trajectory.

The watergun aether has happened to me less than getting edge hugged so thats why Its pretty much useless.

"I survive more than it kills me, so it's useless"? If it kills you, then it kills you. It doesn't matter if you can get around it. That's something Squirtle has to do because he supposedly lacks killing power, correct? It's hardly useless, and it's a safe thing to do because Squirtle doesn't want to try and edgeguard Ike with his body when Ike is using Aether.

When going for the ledge you are supposed to make it so you reach at your apex so you don't get spiked, smashed, or pushed by water.

I can see why you'd recover at the apex (though it contradicts what Empy said about Aethering early on, but whatever), but it doesn't always save you from water. It CAN be angled downward. not only that, but I'm pretty sure that Ike can be edgehogged there anyway. He might not get spiked or smashed, and he might be able to evade water, but he can't really prevent an edgehog.

Not only that but (I'm assuming stage strike system is being used like the SBR recommends) Squirtle can get hit by the sword of aether unless he is using watergun at its max range in which case it may not be enough to push Ike to his death.

Uh....... Water Gun's range is almost half of FD. It's weaker from far away at pushing, but Squirtle can still get a strong push in and be completely out of Aether's range. I'm pretty sure that Squirtle players will jump off the stage, Water Gun, jump back to the stage, cling to the edge, and then get back up (or they can just skip the clinging and get back up anyway).

Watergun only kills you when your already cutting it close other wise its a mistake on Ike's part.

Not necessarily true, but Water Gun isn't really the best move anyway.

being able to anoy your opponent doesn't win you the match up if it did pit would be above metankight.

Squirtle goes in, damages, D-throws (or just gimps), and leaves. It aids PT. Pit can't switch out, so he doesn't have the ability to be an annoyance and then switch to a KOer with lots of range to make up for his previous abilities.

Maybe thats a good thing if your going to build up damage with squirtle and then switch to ivysaur to land the kill like shiek/zelda mains do but if we are talking about the squirtle match up alone then its a big deal not being able to get kills.

Again, I already explained why it's a fallacious argument for *everyone* to rate one Pokemon for this fight as if you're only going to face 1/3rd of PT for 10 matches. Ike has his advantages on Squirtle, undeniably. However, it is NOT a big deal that Squirtle wasn't designed to flat out kill opponents (same with Sheik) if both of them are being used in conjunction with their harder-hitting counterparts. The difference is that Squirtle WILL be preceding Ivysaur.

I still think this is a 7-3 match up. Besides gimping there doesn't seem anything going for squirtle.

Aerial speed, generally faster attacks, having the better throws overall (they damage more and D-throw kills the fastest out of all throws here), and having techniques that boost his mindgaming ability. I say it's 6-4, and that doesn't say much considering you still have to contend with the other two.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

If you can spotdodge it, you can probably perfect shield -> roll away from it, right?
yes you can but if you just start hitting your shield as soon as your let go you'll just get grabbed again.


so to say that his Fsmash (which isn't actually drastically slower than Lucas's and is actually STRONGER) isn't as useful isn't really placing Ness at a significant disadvantage.

It's one of the things, I don't think he said that this made it a win for Ike automatically.

You don't base your game off of PKF. Crouching under PKF to get an Usmash? If you try that against any competent Ness player, they can just grab you right there, or they can shield/dodge Usmash and punish you immediately.

Ness can grab and shoot projectiles at the same time? holy crap watch out metaknight someone is gana take your place.


That's nice, but the point of the video was to show a way that Ike can be edgehogged by Ivysaur, not, "OMG THIS IS HOW IT WORKS, IVY WINS!" Had I put that in text, nobody would've believed me on that happening. Besides, who wouldn't try to edgehog Ivysaur? That's something that would happen at the highest levels of play.

Everyone here would have belived you. We all know how easy it is to edge hog Ike which is why a higher level player wouldn't have had this happen to him.

He tried to edgehog me, not hit me.
He was being stupid. He shouldn't have tried to edge hog you like that.


Uh, at 9%, the hitstun of what, one or two hits of Aether when going up is virtually non-existent. He would've still been edgehogged. I would've been hit (and I'm already IN the sweetspotting area) and that wouldn't have done anything to me because Ike would not have made it back anyway if he Aether'd earlier.
If you get hit with aether you can't grab the ledge as fast. doesn't matter what % your at and If you get hit by 2 hits of aether your going to be spending your time DIing out of it not spaming upB because that will just leave you in there and get you killed. If he hit you then you wouldn't have been in the sweetspot area seriously wtf is with you this reply is just ********. aim at you and aiming at the ledge are to different scenarios and would have different outcomes.



Once again, notice that I never said, "This is how Ivysaur beats Ike." That's why I wanted you to ignore the rest of the video, but you went out and assumed what I told you to not do and you didn't focus primarily on what I wanted to show. I'll reiterate - Ivysaur can edgeguard Ike fairly well, despite the fact that people think a tether character can't play off-stage.
You wanted us to foucus on how a bad Ike made a mistake in order to put Ivysaur at an advantage? We all know how easy it is to edge guard Ike but it's even easier to edge guard Ivysaur



No you can't. Razor Leaf the person on stage. Razor Leaf at the edge so the edge is covered by your hitbox as your Vine Whip grabs it. You can't just wait for it, because you Up B when Razor Leaf is right there. For your situation to happen, you'd have to grab the edge RIGHT before Razor Leaf gets to you, and a perfectly thrown Razor Leaf will cover the edge and anyone who tries to walk off and grab the ledge.
Do you think that Ike is going to jump off and use aether to get into the ledge in order to edge hog you? Not only is that the stupidest way of edge gaurding Ike could come up with you can simply stand at the edge and when Ivysaur uses his razorleaf just hit diagonally down and grab the ledge. Worst case scenario both Ike and ivy die.


That would be giving the ledge to Ivysaur.
Quit life. This probably threw away all of your credibility.


Follow him to fair? Do you realize that you can be a bit ABOVE the stage with Ivy and still tether the ledge? As soon as you tether, you're going to swing straight down. The most you can do is drop down and Aether, hoping for a stagespike.
OMG GO DIE IN A GUTTER. You know that as your coming up from the tether Ike has enough time to hit you with eruption? How the hell do you think that the only option he has is to try and stage spike you? Can he not just jump back onto the stage? can he not hit you while your swinging? do you get the invisibility frames as soon as vine whip grabs the ledge?


I'm sorry, but does that not fall PERFECTLY in line with what I've been saying? To DI Ness's b-throw right would be to either 1) not DI at all (because you get thrown at a 45 degree angle) or 2) DI in the direction that keeps you alive longest. The problem with this? Ike will not live past whatever damage I gave you unless Ness is b-throwing from one end of FD to the opposite blast zone. Period. DIing "right" will not let Ike survive at whatever % I gave earlier, which I'm sure isn't perfect, but I haven't checked it yet.
No it doesn't because all you've been saying is hey if Ike does all the things he isn't supposed to do ivysaur wins the match up. And idiot the whole point of DIing is so you can live longer why else would it be so important? DI changes the angel at which something is thrown if you DI something wrong you die earlier if you DI it right you die later it works both ways.


Or, let's go with my logic. "For a sure kill, b-throw Ike at this %. DIing it at all will not help you because said % is, as I just said, a SURE %."
don't know what this actually accomplishes besides making you look dumber.


I say it's 6-4 Ike, not 7-3, This alone is why I give Ike an advantage. Squirtle is not a killer as it stands. I guess you have to rate Squirtle alone for the fight, but the nature of PT should suggest otherwise, because... well, that's how it works. He still has a Down B, much like Zelda/Sheik do. I don't understand why people do Zelda, Sheik, and Zelda/Sheik but only one of each of the Pokemon when they're rated as a whole in the end in the first place. (Not to mention they're based off of averages, which is ********, and I'll explain why.)

If you kill Squirtle, that's it. No more Squirtle until/unless the opponent brings him out again. If Squirtle decides to fight you in CONJUNCTION with Ivysaur, then the match-up shouldn't be 6.5 - 3.5 Ike. It should be better than that for PT because you now eliminate Squirtle's issue of having to get a kill and you have a fresh Ivysaur to work with, who has a ton of killing moves, both in raw power and trajectory.
So if you agree that you have to rate squirtle alone then why are your still arguing that Not killing isn't a problem? This isn't the PT match up its the squirtle match up all your saying here is pretty much useless.


"I survive more than it kills me, so it's useless"? If it kills you, then it kills you. It doesn't matter if you can get around it. That's something Squirtle has to do because he supposedly lacks killing power, correct? It's hardly useless, and it's a safe thing to do because Squirtle doesn't want to try and edgeguard Ike with his body when Ike is using Aether.
its useless because those times that I survived you could have killed me with something else and those times it does kill me you could have also killed me with something else with a lot less trouble. If this is the only save way of killing Ike for squirtle then fine it brings down all the other ways he has.


I can see why you'd recover at the apex (though it contradicts what Empy said about Aethering early on, but whatever), but it doesn't always save you from water. It CAN be angled downward. not only that, but I'm pretty sure that Ike can be edgehogged there anyway. He might not get spiked or smashed, and he might be able to evade water, but he can't really prevent an edgehog.
When going for the ledge moron. The ledge, the stage, and a character are not the same thing. Being able to edgehog him there is exactly what makes watergun useless. Thank you, don't come again.


Uh....... Water Gun's range is almost half of FD. It's weaker from far away at pushing, but Squirtle can still get a strong push in and be completely out of Aether's range. I'm pretty sure that Squirtle players will jump off the stage, Water Gun, jump back to the stage, cling to the edge, and then get back up (or they can just skip the clinging and get back up anyway).
Squirtle can't get enough of a strong push if he is doing that. Especially if (you know how you talk about squirtle being able to do diffrent things? well guess what Ike can too.) he aims for the stage instead of the ledge since your so far away. If he jumps out Ike can just hit him there, If he is to far to hit him he was probably going to die anyways.


Not necessarily true, but Water Gun isn't really the best move anyway.
you saying its not true doesn't disprove it.


Squirtle goes in, damages, D-throws (or just gimps), and leaves. It aids PT. Pit can't switch out, so he doesn't have the ability to be an annoyance and then switch to a KOer with lots of range to make up for his previous abilities.
*sigh* this is the Squirtle match up not PT as a whole.


Again, I already explained why it's a fallacious argument for *everyone* to rate one Pokemon for this fight as if you're only going to face 1/3rd of PT for 10 matches. Ike has his advantages on Squirtle, undeniably. However, it is NOT a big deal that Squirtle wasn't designed to flat out kill opponents (same with Sheik) if both of them are being used in conjunction with their harder-hitting counterparts. The difference is that Squirtle WILL be preceding Ivysaur.
again? its the same post stupid. If people wanted to they could use squirtle alone in the match and no one else.


Aerial speed, generally faster attacks, having the better throws overall (they damage more and D-throw kills the fastest out of all throws here), and having techniques that boost his mindgaming ability. I say it's 6-4, and that doesn't say much considering you still have to contend with the other two.
Mindgames are not a valid argument in match up's everyone has mind games. Plus if you get mind gamed by Ike you die. The other 2 aren't in this match up and they are at a disadvantage or at neutral. Hell maybe even both of them are at a disadvantage.

Holy crap you are dumb.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

double post FTW! since no one else replied or started a new match up discussion.

Well I'm thinking zelda should be 6-4 now thanks to ryko and some talk of him in the official tier discussion thread. And just to add some credibility I'll pull a falconv and ride the elitist train.

I don't understand how Zelda has any sort of advantageous match against Ike. Thankfully, I don't need to when picking her character slot.

 

[YagamiLight]

I'd probably agree with making Zelda an advantage, but I'd hold off on making it 6-4 for now.

In any case, I'm not really in the mood to repost my list, since we may as well just edit this one, I've gained some trust in the OP's judgments.

First off, I'd make Snake, Toon Link, Pit, Diddy and MK neutral. Then make Falco and Wolf both 6-4 and Ice Climbers an advantage. If you wish to argue these points, feel free to do so. If not, please fix them.

 

[MysticKenji]

Falco is still easily a 7-3 match.

 

[YagamiLight]

Falco is still easily a 7-3 match.

Could be, but Falco does have a terrible recovery and well as a poor weight, so I'd argue that it might be 6-4 against Ike, even with lasers and a cg.

 

[XACE-K]

I'd probably agree with making Zelda an advantage, but I'd hold off on making it 6-4 for now.

In any case, I'm not really in the mood to repost my list, since we may as well just edit this one, I've gained some trust in the OP's judgments.

First off, I'd make Snake, Toon Link, Pit, Diddy and MK neutral. Then make Falco and Wolf both 6-4 and Ice Climbers an advantage. If you wish to argue these points, feel free to do so. If not, please fix them.

Well I'm not sure what to make them but I say.

Zelda:4.5-5.5 D
Snake: Neutral
TL: 4.5-5.5 D
Pit: 4-6 D
Diddy: Neutral
MK 4-6 D
Falco: 4-6 D
Wolf: 4-6 D
Ice Climbers: 6-4 A

These are just from personal experiences but they're probably wrong.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Could be, but Falco does have a terrible recovery and well as a poor weight, so I'd argue that it might be 6-4 against Ike, even with lasers and a cg.

I'd agree with this.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Well I'm not sure what to make them but I say.

Zelda:4.5-5.5 D
Snake: Neutral
TL: 4.5-5.5 D
Pit: 4-6 D
Diddy: Neutral
MK 4-6 D
Falco: 4-6 D
Wolf: 4-6 D
Ice Climbers: 6-4 A

These are just from personal experiences but they're probably wrong.

Why would you consider zelda at a small disadvantage? Possibly the best zelda of all has a hard time playing ryko's Ike. ryko even said he refuses to use zelda against him now.

Snake I might agree with. But TL is harder to fight against than Link so he shouldn't be a neutral unless link is at a disadvantage.

don't know about pit but I think diddy is a nuetral as well. I think Mk is already 4-6 D, falco might be 3-7D, Same with wolf.

Ice climbers idk about, there chain grab will destroy Ike and it isn't easy for Ike to avoid grabs. I've only won against Ice climbers because I'm better than them.

 

[Wyvern-x]

Arturito hit the nail on the head with Zelda and the ICs.

Diddy: The bananas coupled in with his speed give Ike a big problem once Diddy gets momentum going.

Falco: He can camp Ike the best out of any character. The lasers are a huge pain and reflector can be used to space. Sure you can overcome it, but up close he can just chaingrab you(assuming you haven't taken much damage)

Wolf: He is like a less campy version of Falco, but more close range orientated

Snake, TL, and MK I'll consider moving down a bit.

 

[Alus]

Can i say that i strongly dissagree with the ike vs bowser machup... ikes aireals outrange bowser in general so well that its possible to win by spaming n-air and f-air... while gimping only reqires SH and counter if bowser isnt very low below the stage already....

Wolf: He is like a less campy version of Falco, but more close range orientated

acctually falco is a little more agressive and can also chain grab you into a spike if you somehow amazingly get close... while wolf rewards people with bad spacing and simply reqires to blaster> fsmash >blaster > f-smash >blaster >grab release > d-smash >wolf illousion spike near edge> grab edge, ike will try to aether up and fail because you are edgehogging with the remainder of your frames... so yes... both of them can be close combat orientated...(whatever that means.)

 

[Empy]

A campy Wolf is much more dangerous than a campy Falco imo.

 

[•Col•]

A campy Wolf is much more dangerous than a campy Falco imo.

This.... xD I have a lot of experience with a campy Wolf.....

 

[Wyvern-x]

twoskilld4u as for Bowser you'll have to take that up with the other members of the board. You can aether fast enough before Falco can spike you after his chaingrab.

I've never played a campy Wolf so I don't really have a say in how bad he camps Ike.

 

[Alus]

it depends if the wolf knows how to short hop or not....

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

A campy Wolf is much more dangerous than a campy Falco imo.

thats because camping works better for wolf. But camping isn't the highest wolf and falco can go.

edit: I'm wondering why squirtle and Ivysaur haven't been changed. Didn't me and empy argue the match ups well enough? That guy argueing against us was kind of stupid with his hey If Ike double jumps then aethers away from the stage to edge guard the match up goes to PT as a whole but squirtle and Ivysaur would still be 0-100

same goes for metaknight no one argued against that.

 

[Brinzy]

I didn't say Ike would double jump and then Aether away from the stage. Why do you keep conjuring BS about what I said? Go back and read my posts. I was going to respond to you, but you're too busy flaming me when I wasn't flaming you in the first place, so whatever. Do whatever you'd like here. Though I just need to say that you totally put so many words into my mouth. I'm dumb because I say that you're giving the ledge to a tether character by getting off of it? Sure thing, guy.

Also, Squirtle and Ivysaur aren't changed because the arguments you presented was full of flaming and apparently it wasn't credible enough for him to just flat out change it. Note how Empy argued for advantage to Ike while I did neutral. Currently, Ike has a small advantage, which works for the two of us. I see that the OP has posted here since then, so apparently your arguments don't hold together as well as you think. (Hint: throwing out tons of insults and then trying to disprove credibility never works.)

I agree with the numbers he put. 6:4 Ivy and 7:3 Squirtle my foot. Also, you can't go, "Oh, nobody argued against us except for that dumb guy, so we win," because that's just stupid, and as I've already said, flaming doesn't help you. I accept the numbers he put, so I have nothing else to argue for. Prove that it's what you say it is... because as far as I'm concerned, you haven't done so legitimately yet.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I agree with the numbers he put. 6:4 Ivy and 7:3 Squirtle my foot. I accept the numbers he put, so I have nothing else to argue for. Prove that it's what you say it is... because as far as I'm concerned, you haven't done so legitimately yet.

Those aren't the numbers he put though he didn't even change them and if those are the numbers that I was arguing for. 5.5-4.5 is considered a nuetral match up.

I wasn't flaming you I was stating facts. You kept on talking about mistakes that Ike could make to give PT guys the advantage and that squirtle wasn't affected by its disability to kill when it is considered a separate match up.

Also, you can't go, "Oh, nobody argued against us except for that dumb guy, so we win," because that's just stupid, and as I've already said, flaming doesn't help you.

yes I can thats how debates work. Also I may flame you but it doesn't change a thing I only did it because you're arguments got redundant and I didn't need to bother arguing against them. I only flame thick headed people with bad arguments. If you go back and read my original points of squirtle having trouble killing, guys with disjointed hist boxes and long range you would notice that you never disproved me.

up until someone compatent comes in here and gives vaild points then it should be 7-3 squirtle and 6-4 ivysaur

 

[Brinzy]

EDIT: Any point in this post where I said that the fight is ____ and ___ is now invalidated because the OP has changed the numbers.

Those aren't the numbers he put though he didn't even change them and if those are the numbers that I was arguing for. 5.5-4.5 is considered a nuetral match up.

If 5.5-4.5 is neutral and not small advantage, fine by me. That would coincide with my opinion anyway.

I wasn't flaming you

How the hell are you a Smash Debater? Read. You're talking about my supposed lack of credibility, yet you flamed me in two different posts (one of which I wasn't even HERE to be insulted again) and you flamed me in just now.

You kept on talking about mistakes that Ike could make to give PT guys the advantage and that squirtle wasn't affected by its disability to kill when it is considered a separate match up.

That's inane. I never once said that Ivy or Squirtle had any semblance of an advantage in this fight, as in they will never be 5.5 or higher against Ike at this rate. They do have things they can do, and that's what I put forward. Squirtle can't kill? Down B. Yet since you want to continue to pretend like Squirtle is going to stay out a full-stock vs. Ike (from the middle of FD):

- d-throw kills, without DI, at 165%. Do not ask me for numbers with DI. Anything will kill Ike sooner because it sends him at a 45 degree angle.

- fair kills at 150%

- Fsmash (no charge) kills at 125%

- Dsmash (no charge) kills at 130%

- Usmash (no charge) kills at 103%


(By the way, these "kills" are when Ike actually gets sent off into the blastzone, not when he just doesn't/can't recover.)

As you can see, you're right - Squirtle lacks flat out killing moves. However, this has already been admitted to. It doesn't matter, however, because Squirtle isn't designed to flat out kill. He gimps. It's the same as Sheik; anyone with any common sense will realize that you don't say they suck at killing because they don't flat out kill like Ike, because both of them like to gimp before they kill. That said, Squirtle and Sheik have killing counterparts in their own characters, and THAT said, you can just rack up damage with Charizard, switch to Squirtle safely (kill Ike or just D-throw him) and then use any of the above killing moves on Ike and get out. That's how Squirtle is supposed to fight here, but no, let's pretend he doesn't have a gimp game and two other characters to do the damage for him and let's pretend that he's going to obviously stay out a full stock in a disadvantageous fight when the other two do better than him. If you still cling to your idea that you rate them alone, then I still say it's 6-4 Ike.

yes I can thats how debates work.

Wait, so the person who gets the last word wins automatically? News to me. I'm gonna enter a debating class and just conclude the argument with my opinion. Flawless debate. Also, no, just because more people are arguing with you than against doesn't mean that you're completely correct. This has been disproved so many times throughout history.

Also I may flame you

Something clicked up there?

but it doesn't change a thing I only did it because you're arguments got redundant and I didn't need to bother arguing against them.

Horrible logic. "I'm tired of debating you because you keep trying to drill something into me and I keep trying to reject it the same way every single time, so you're an idiot."

I only flame thick headed people with bad arguments.

Funny. In every other character debate where someone has called me names and whatnot, the end result, so far, has always tipped into my favor anyway, so apparently I'm not thick-headed and apparently I don't have bad arguments, because, hey, the match-ups in this thread STILL agree with me!

If you go back and read my original points of squirtle having trouble killing, guys with disjointed hist boxes and long range you would notice that you never disproved me.

For crying out loud. I already said that Squirtle had trouble with disjointed hitboxes and that he does have trouble getting flat out kills to the blastzones on the side and the ceiling. I never once said otherwise, not once. I agreed with you there. So yes, your statement that I never disproved you has some truth to it, but for an obvious reason.

up until someone compatent comes in here and gives vaild points then it should be 7-3 squirtle and 6-4 ivysaur

Yet more insults.

I assure you that I am a competent player, but the only Ike I've played so far was Ryko's, so whatever. I'd rather have some Ike players who don't spend all day putting crap into other people's posts to say something on this, or even better, I'd rather that the thread stay the way it is with the current numbers.

I also gave you plenty of valid points. Quoting you to me,

"you saying its not true doesn't disprove it."

You saying that the fight is ____ doesn't mean that it is just that... but ok.

 

[YagamiLight]

The OP is getting better and better.

However, I think it is general consensus that MK, Snake and G&W are even and Ike has a pretty big advantage on Wario and a slight one on Zelda.

Too tired to argue anything besides the stuff we've agreed upon in various places.

 

[Wyvern-x]

Ike does have things going for him against MK, but not enough to warrant a neutral. Same with Snake, but has a few more things going for him there. I can understand G&W. Just need some MK, Snake and G&W mains to put in their input before I make a move.

Zelda does not have an advantage over Ike as said before, but what does Ike have giving him a 5.5-4.5 or6-4 over her?

 

[YagamiLight]

Ike does have things going for him against MK, but not enough to warrant a neutral. Same with Snake, but has a few more things going for him there. I can understand G&W. Just need some MK, Snake and G&W mains to put in their input before I make a move.

Zelda does not have an advantage over Ike as said before, but what does Ike have giving him a 5.5-4.5 or6-4 over her?

You know what the chances are of the Ike boards getting MK, Snake and G&W mains AND having them check the topic AND check the last page is AND providing input is? Rather. Were I you, I'd first change those match-ups to neutral. That way, the mains of those characters will see a neutral score and read on and eventually debate over the score.

And as for Zelda, it's more or less that Ike's aerials are better, he has better range and he kills earlier. The current topic of the match-up guide is Zelda, so we'll probably have a nice article on her soon.

On a side note, I forgot to mention that Ike probably doesn't have the disadvantage against Toon Link and Link, seeing as how he soundly beats them in close quarters combat.

That's all for now.

 

[akkon888]

Ike vs MK= 6-4 A. Metaknight's lack of range, especially in the forward airs, prevent him from working with much horizontal movement in air. Ike clearly dominates the air with 6 spectacular air moves, not accounting retreating aerials. The only way this isn't 6.5-3.5 or 7-3 is that MK's ground game is significantly faster than Ike's, and Ike can't really punish a noob MK.

Also on Falco. 2.5-7.5 is a little extreme. You are not factoring in the aerial advantage of Ike. He wins in nair, fair, Aether, and bair. Falco wins in uair and dair, but those do not give much horizontal movement, and the dair hardly give vertical movement. Possibly move it down to 3-7 or 3.5-6.5 or tell me why it is that extreme.

 

[Brinzy]

Ike doesn't have an advantage on MK.

Falco, as far as I know, is supposed to be able to force Ike out of a comfort zone with his laser and shine, but I don't know the specifics of the fight.

 

[DMG]

The OP is getting better and better.

However, I think it is general consensus that MK, Snake and G&W are even and Ike has a pretty big advantage on Wario and a slight one on Zelda.

Too tired to argue anything besides the stuff we've agreed upon in various places.

Who from the MK, Snake, G&W, or Wario boards has agreed to Even? From every serious MK and Snake player I have talked to, they believe they have the advantage over Ike. I'll ask Hylian about Ike vs G&W later, and I've talked to the Wario guys and they don't think Ike has a large advantage at all. If you are talking about what the Ike players think, then we need to get the other boards in here and get their side of the story as well before we go issuing even numbers without really talking to them.

If you haven't talked to the other boards about matchup numbers or if there are conflicting opinions, then don't post any numbers. Just put a ? mark by it or leave it blank for now. It's better to get it right later than to get it wrong first. That is the approach DanGR is taking to his matchup chart, and it is working well.

Sorry if I sound angry at you guys, I like the fact that each board is working towards a matchup chart, but it is hard to believe some of the new proposed matchup numbers when I haven't seen good character representatives agree on them.

 

[imdavid]

I heard Ike has a really good matchup against Texas, Texas is too big to dodge all the fsmash's and Great Aethers

 

[DMG]

I heard Ike has a really good matchup against Texas, Texas is too big to dodge all the fsmash's and Great Aethers

The Hurricane Jokes end once people have died.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Holy **** this match-up thread reeks of ACCURACY!!!!!

Smells so FAWKING delicious.

 

[Wyvern-x]

Thanks EL,

 

[XACE-K]

Holy **** this match-up thread reeks of ACCURACY!!!!!

Smells so FAWKING delicious.

Smells like FAWKING sarcasm.