The Weapon Triangle: Unofficial Ike Matchup Number Topic

[Deleted member]

ike owns bowser badly.

 

[YagamiLight]

Yagami: To make a detailed analysis on a matchup enough people have to agree on how good or bad the matchup is. The numbers are there so we can determine how bad or good the matchup is and make an analysis from there.

Well, if that's the case I may as well get my opinions on the matchups out there. This is all either personal experience, videos and the like. If I don't know for sure, I'll put an * next to it.


Meta Knight 4-6 D
Snake 3.5-6.5 D
Mr G&W 5-5 N
Marth 5-5 N
Falco 3-7 D
R.O.B. 4-6 D
King Dedede 4-6 D
Wario 6-4 A
Olimar 4-6 D
Lucario 4-6 D
Donkey Kong 5-5 N
Wolf 4-6 D
Pit 3-7 D
Ice Climbers 4-6 D
Pikachu 5-5 N
Toon Link 5-5 N
Kirby 5-5 N
Diddy Kong 4-6 D
Zelda 5-5 N
Fox 5-5 N
Lucas 4-6 D
Ness 5-5 N
Zero Suit Samus 4-6 D
Luigi 6-4 A
Peach 5-5 N
Sonic 5-5 N
Charizard 5-5 N
Ivysaur 5-5 N
Squirtle 6-4 A
Mario 5-5 N
Bowser 5-5 N
Link 4-6 D
Sheik 4-6 D
Jigglypuff 6-4 A
Samus 6-4 A
Ganondorf 7-3 A
Yoshi 5.5 - 4.5 A
Captain Falcon 7-3 A


I think Ike's worst match-ups are Pit and Falco really, and they aren't unwinnable by any stretch. This is the original post's list with me lowering some scores and making others higher. On a side note, I made TL neutral to Ike while Link has a slight advantage.

Opinions?

 

[MysticKenji]

MK is worse than Snake for Ike imo

Marth isn't neutral, it's his advantage 6-4

vs Ivy is Ivy's advantage and vs Boozer should be even or Boozer's

Zamus, IC's and Diddy are all around 6-4 for them, not too bad, but not even either

5-5 vs Ness is not an advantage lol

 

[ROOOOY!]

I honestly don't think Sonic's neutral. Should be 6-4 in favour of Sonic.
He can cancel all his approaches, goading Ike into using a laggy offensive move, which he'll get punished for.
Also, an Ike offstage is also a dead Ike, spring gimps are too good.
I honestly can't see how Ike can hold his own against Sonic. I suppose his best attacks for this match-up are his jab and retreating fairs. The only thing he's got going to him is that he kills Sonic faster due to his KO moves and Sonic's lightweight, though Sonic mains are wary of not just running into danger because of low priority and that.
I know Tenki seconds Ike along with myself, I'd like to see his thoughts on this.

 

[YagamiLight]

MK is worse than Snake for Ike imo

Marth isn't neutral, it's his advantage 6-4

vs Ivy is Ivy's advantage and vs Boozer should be even or Boozer's

Zamus, IC's and Diddy are all around 6-4 for them, not too bad, but not even either

5-5 vs Ness is not an advantage lol

I'm actually of the opinion that MK isn't a terrible match-up for Ike. I made a topic in the MK forums so I'll update according to that.

Marth and Ivysaur I've fought on several occasions, and Ike's reach and power does really help out. I'd like to hold off before changing this.



Bowser I'll make even until further notice, and I'll change the rest of your suggestions unless I gets posts stating otherwise.


Edit: Regarding Sonic, the retreating fair really is highly useful in the matchup, but I won't deny Sonic's gimp capabilities.

 

[Ussi]

ROOOY I battled Tenki and darknes, normally its around even. One, We will never underestimate Sonic's speed and that if we use a laggy move you'll come from across the stage to punish us.


I will never understand how IC's have the advantage when Ike is the best at killing stupidity (Nana)

Marth will always have the advantage. You're just very experienced man. Get used to it, lots of people CP Marth(As well as others) against Ike. Plus we don't want Emblem Lord coming here preaching Marth to us now? Let's not bother him ;P

 

[XACE-K]

Opinions?

Well for me, you should put Mario at a 5.5 advantage over Ike. Ike is of course stronger and has more range than him but if the Mario is really good, he can gimp Ike badly with the cape and FLUDD.

 

[SmashGod17]

Well for me, you should put Mario at a 5.5 advantage over Ike. Ike is of course stronger and has more range than him but if the Mario is really good, he can gimp Ike badly with the cape and FLUDD.

True, but a good Ike could beat a good Mario. Ike has Counter on his side.

 

[Brinzy]

Mario has his cape on his side. His side-B even!

 

[SmashGod17]

Yeah, the Cape is good at gimping. I'll give you that.

 

[Zench]

I didn't know Ike had advantages against anyone.. ;D

 

[doom dragon 105]

ike has the advantage over meta knight

 

[Brinzy]

Until he gets off the stage.

 

[Jibbles]

Marth 5-5 N

I disagree.
Offstage, Marth will gimp Ike fairly easily. Onstage, Ike needs to deal with Marth's faster attacks and the occasional Counter. Marth can punish Ike's moves because they tend to lag. Even Ike's jab can be punished if Marth shields it. His speed also allows him to get inside Ie's range without too much of a hassle, and Marth even outranges Ike in certain cases. Dancing Blade can push Ike off the edge and allow Marth to go into his edgeguarding game. Aether can be Countered against, or be gimped by Dolphin Slash (go behind Ike when he Aethers nd Up B onto the edge before Ike does and Ike will die if he didn't aim for the stage).

 

[Tenki]

I honestly don't think Sonic's neutral. Should be 6-4 in favour of Sonic.
He can cancel all his approaches, goading Ike into using a laggy offensive move, which he'll get punished for.
Also, an Ike offstage is also a dead Ike, spring gimps are too good.
I honestly can't see how Ike can hold his own against Sonic. I suppose his best attacks for this match-up are his jab and retreating fairs. The only thing he's got going to him is that he kills Sonic faster due to his KO moves and Sonic's lightweight, though Sonic mains are wary of not just running into danger because of low priority and that.
I know Tenki seconds Ike along with myself, I'd like to see his thoughts on this.

Well, I've had a few games with some people who tried to use Sonic against Ike.

`.`; I can read/react to Sonic's movements pretty well, and I basically got through games with jab, F-air, N-air, and retreating pivot grabs. This was between my subpar Ike vs mediocre Sonic.

XD they were kinda (er... really) predictable and overabused spindashes, which I jabbed them out of, and at times, RPG'd (retreating pivot grab = rpg? lolol) out of.

But sloppy missed moves will kill Ike, and moves with little ending lag are few and far between for Ike.

Thus, between a good Ike and a good Sonic, both players will have to rely on reading their opponents' moves, but both be aware of which moves are laggy (or aren't) and avoid sloppily creating openings for their opponents. This means that Ike will not just spam F-air (for Ike mains who haven't fought competent Sonic mains, your F-air's IASA aren't enough to protect you from Sonic's punishment), and not throw out laggy moves. This also means that the Sonic main won't be stupid and try to spindash the whole game away, since it leaves him pretty vulnerable.

Moveset vs moveset, Sonic would win if Ike overabused laggy moves (which is a scary majority of Ike's moveset), and Ike would win if Sonic overabused spindashes (which is a ... minority of Sonic's moveset). On top of that, Ike's recovery game is pretty owned by spring.

That said, Sonic would seem to have an advantage over Ike, but between good players, it's neutral at best (for Ike).

 

[ROOOOY!]

Whilst I agree, you maining Sonic kinda gets you into the mindset of Sonic. You know his capabilities better than probably any Ike mains and so know common traits and what Sonic is gonna do in a certain situation, so you could react better with Ike and overall cope better.
It's the fact that Sonic can punish just about everything Ike can throw out via cancelling approaches and quite easily gimp him offstage that puts it in Sonic's advantage in my eyes.

 

[Rykoshet]

Marth vs ike is a pretty blatant 7-3 in the marth's favor, sorry. He has 2 freebie ways to gimp ike at will, and the second doesnt even require his jumping off the stage.

 

[XACE-K]

True, but a good Ike could beat a good Mario. Ike has Counter on his side.

Also true but Counter can't gimp a character's recovery.

 

[YagamiLight]

Here's the updated list with explanations and alphabetized:

Bowser 5-5 N
Captain Falcon 7-3 A
Charizard 5-5 N
Diddy Kong 5-5 N
Donkey Kong 5-5 N
Falco 3-7 D
Fox 5-5 N
Ganondorf 7-3 A
Ice Climbers 5-5 N
Ivysaur 5-5 N
Jigglypuff 6-4 A
King Dedede 4-6 D
Kirby 5-5 N
Link 5-5
Lucario 4-6 D
Lucas 4-6 D
Luigi 6-4 A
Mario 5-5 N
Marth 4-6 D
Meta Knight 4-6 D
Mr G&W 5-5 N
Ness 5-5 N
Olimar 4-6 D
Peach 5-5 N
Pikachu 5-5 N
Pit 3-7 D
R.O.B. 4-6 D
Samus 6-4 A
Sheik 4-6 D
Snake 3.5-6.5 D
Sonic 5-5 N
Squirtle 6-4 A
Toon Link 6-4 A
Wario 6-4 A
Wolf 4-6 D
Yoshi 5.5 - 4.5 A
Zelda 5-5 N
Zero Suit Samus 4-6 D

Essentially, due to popular demand I gave Marth a sizable advantage against Ike. I, however, made Diddy Kong and Ice Climbers simply neutral. Mario I kept 5-5 for the following reason: A good Mario will beat a decent Ike by gimping numerous times, but an equally good Ike will learn to space his Aethers enough so that they can't be Fludd'd or caped. At the higher echelons, it's probably neutral. I also made one VERY debatable change:

I made Toon Link a 6-4 advantage for Ike, I don't consider his projectiles really meaningful to the match, while Ike's swordplay great beats it. TL is also pretty light. Link I decided to raise to neutral, this is probably one of the only matches in which he does better than TL in.

I'm really confused on Sonic versus Ike, I haven't played any good ones, so I'm just going by hearsay that it's neutral, I'll look a bit more into it.

I'm also considering making Zelda an advantage and Pit only a moderate disadvantage, any thoughts on that?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

well first off this list should be more organized since this thread is pretty active. At least put it in abc order.

Mario: counter isn't going to help in this match frankly I don't think it helps in any match idk where you got that from. Anyways Flud and the cape aren't all that great. If you have your second jump you'll make it back like 90% of the time. Flud actually keeps you afloat for a while since the water starts in a downward angle and then goes up. If he waits till you actually start to aether which will work better if he hits you you can use your sword to hit him depending on the stage.

Ike is also a lot heavier and stronger than him. Mario can jungle him to like 50% but people can chain grab him that high as well and if you get hit with Ike you can get juggled by a lot of people if you don't DI right. Mario has a very bad recovery as well maybe worse than Ike's and you can be risky about edge guarding him because his only defense will send you back into the stage. I think its going to be 65-35 in Ikes favor.

With sonic I think its neutral. Since he has no projectiles and he can be grabbed out of his spinning attacks you can play very defensive. I've never really played a good sonic though but looking at the statistics he doesn't seem like such a threat. He's light, Weak, low priority, and a small range. Plenty of people can gimp Ike its nothing special.

 

[Delta_BP26]

I must say, Luigi has the advantage over Ike. Luigi is a faster character, not to mention he can juggle Ike to hell via U-Tilt.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

thats it though only speed and juggling to 50% past that theres nothing. Ike is heavier, stronger, and has a further reach. Most of Luigi's recoveries can be gimped even with 4 different ones. The only things they really do is that you can recover from anywhere.

 

[YagamiLight]

There, I alphabetized the list. (not by hand, of course....)

I'm not changing anything else yet, but that's more of a "need more people" thing, as for a boardwide matchup chart we need boardwide input.

 

[XACE-K]

I'm not changing anything else yet, but that's more of a "need more people" thing, as for a boardwide matchup chart we need boardwide input.

Well how is the Fox match-up neutral? I don't disagree with it but thats one of my lesser known match-ups. I need to find some info on it.

 

[Delta_BP26]

I've faced a really good Ike before and I could see why you'd give Ike the advantage. However, you forget that against a faster character, Ike is limited to very few moves, most of which can be dodged via airdodging or spotdodging. Luigi can also keep insane pressure on Ike with fireballs; I have to admit that's what won me the match. He refused to approach me, so I could deal like 20+ damage at mid range. Ike is limited in approaches, and to kill Luigi early he has to use his smashes, which have very punishable lag. I scored 2 kills (He stopped using it after that; it was in a 5 stock game) by dodging his F-Smash and giving him a taste of the Super Fiery Jump Punch of Death.
Towards the end, he spammed B-Air because I had a large advantage on him. B-Air and F-Tilt are really Ike's best bet.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I don't think that was a very good Ike. Besides Ike doesn't need his smashes to kill luigi early. actually his F smash is the only one that kills early. U smash kills like 2% under u air on average and that kills like 2% under Utilt. Killing him isn't a problem and neither is camping, all your fire balls really do is get rid of QD and we've already decided how bad that is.

Ike isn't really limited by fast characters as well since his main moves are jab, Fair, and Nair and I don't think luigi can punish those very well.

 

[MysticKenji]

Ike > Luigi at:
1. Power
2. Range by A LOT
3. Weight

Luigi > Ike at:
1. Recovery
2. Attack speed
3. Camping (Luigi's fireball might be a crappy projectile, but it is still one)

They can edgeguard about equally well.

I'd say it's near even.

words.

1. The "I can dodge your moves" argument doesn't work.
I can dodge yours too >_>
2. Jab > Fireball
3. lol fsmash
4. Or he can use his tilts...or edgeguard >_>

 

[Delta_BP26]

all your fire balls really do is get rid of QD and we've already decided how bad that is.

That is not true. Granted QD is a terrible move outside or recovery but Ike has problems countering camping.

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

R.O.B should be a 7:3 disadvantage. For 2 reasons:

1.R.O.B is heavy, so he won't die easily
2.If a good R.O.B gets you off the stage.........you're not coming back.

 

[Kodachrome]

To be honest,luigi's fireballs don't pose a problem for me, either. I either jab them out and wait for the next move, OR, when i'm feeling fat and sassy/feeling like trying something else... I shorthop a quickdraw over them for a skidding landing to get in his face. unfortunately, this can backfire.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

luigis fire balls aren't even a fast enough move to spam though. You should at least show some evidence of this (not wifi). But usually Ike can get around spam at some point as it leaves you open if you aren't careful and once your in Ike,s reach your dead.

Mystic kenji also forgot priority which puts Ike ahead on the statistics.

 

[MysticKenji]

Diddy Kong 5-5 D

wut

matchups

What makes Samus our advantage and Zelda neutral?
Just wondering.

 

[YagamiLight]

wut


What makes Samus our advantage and Zelda neutral?
Just wondering.

Fixed the 5-5s to neutral.

And as for Samus and Zelda, I was under the impression that Samus's poor killing power and not so good projectile game allows Ike to get in and deal plenty of damage. And for Zelda, I'm actually considering making it 6-4 Ike, as while she has killing power and a better (Though still not great) projectile, her range is shorter and she is also really light. REALLY light.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Well zelda has some pretty laggy moves so if you shield them you can get hits in and an early kill. For samus I have no idea but my friend has a very good samus and a decent DK, he has more trouble against me with samus that DK so it has to be something.

 

[Wyvern-x]

Updated my list and made it a whole lot neater.

 

[WeretigerX]

The biggest problem I have with this list is DK and Fox. They have an advantage against Ike. I personally believe that Sonic had a disadvantage against him though.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

The DK boards have Ike as a neutral match you just need to look into it again. Pages 9 and 10 have pretty detail analysis's of the DK Ike match up.

As for Fox I'm not sure what gives him the advantage besides being fast. Could be because I don't fight many foxes my friend stopped using him.

edit: I'm thinking the olimar match up is more 6:4 or 7:3 rather than 8:2

 

[Wyvern-x]

I'm pretty sure both boards agree on the DK-Ike matchup being neutral.

I don't have too much experience with Olimar so any input would be helpful Arturito_Burrito.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Well I don't have much experience either, tournaments here are like once every 2 months.

so I'm going to go off statistics

Ike:
weight
recovery (holy crap)
power
priority

Olimar:
range (grabs and pikmin throw)
Speed
camping

Well olimars camping isn't a big problem if you wait long enough you will get an opening and most of the time olimar jumps up into the air to get a bigger range out of it and you have a longer air range.

In the ground Olimar has the longer range and his grab is huge so you have to be careful on when and with what to approach since pretty much everything gets grabbed. Once he grabs you, you can end up getting juggled to 50% but mario and luigi can do that and its no big deal.

Killing olimar isn't hard since he has the 2nd worst recovery in the game. once you get him off the stage just get him to waste his second jump and edge hog him. Aether spikes are a sure kill at any percent as well so if you can land one of those its a free kill.


I may be wrong on this stuff so feel free to correct me people.

 

[MysticKenji]

Two things

1. Olimar should be 7:3 Olimar
2. http://The Fox boards changed Fox vs Ike to 6:4 FoxThe Fox boards changed Fox vs Ike to 6:4 Fox