The Weapon Triangle: Unofficial Ike Matchup Number Topic

[XACE-K]

Two things

1. Olimar should be 7:3 Olimar
2. The Fox boards changed Fox vs Ike to 6:4 Fox

I agree with both of those. Also the DK vs Ike match-uop is neutral.

 

[Wyvern-x]

I changed the Olimar matchup, but is there any reason they changed Fox-Ike back to 6-4?

 

[Ussi]

Someone explain to me what Ness has on Ike?

 

[MysticKenji]

Ike-Ike is another slow, but deadly type. The name of the game here is “Dodge and combo” Ike is horrifically strong, and can kill you amazingly early. But you’re the 3rd fastest character, so you can usually get out of the monster's way. His ending lag is bad(besides his bair, ill get to that in a sec), so use the openings to get in and attack. His neutral A combo is a big pain, and his utilt can be if timed right, If you can't get out of the way of neutral A, shield the WHOLE thing. Ikes usually edgeguard with either fair or charging B on the edge. This shouldnt be too much of an issure for you since fox has shine stall, and a fast side B. Ikes B air is deceptive. Its crazy fast, and its coming from a slow character. Be ready for it. If he jumping backwards at you, its pretty obvious its coming. His Side B is super easy to dodge and edgeguard, but aether isnt. Many ikes stay on the ledge, wait for you to come over, then drop and up b, giving them a free aether on you. Recognize this and watch for it.

Ike: he's an easy matchup. His only "fast" moves are his jab combo, utilt, and back air.

His Neutral air autocancels, so Nair > jab combo works.

His smashes all leave an impact if they hit, so don't let them.

His side b is useless because of PK thunder.

Bthrow kills at 145% or so (w/DI)

By playing smart and not leaving himself open, Ness should win by a stock or so. Instead of Normal WoP, attack whenever the Ike is in wind-down lag after he misses, and punish spot-dodges with grabs.

I'd say moderate advantage for Ness (7-3)

PK Flash his up-b, just watch out for his jab and his jab cancel

I prefer larger stages when fighting Ike that way I have some buffer of not getting Ko'd to early. Although, I guess veiwpoints differ depends on if you gimp his recovery or not. If he's charging his side B to get back jump in front of him and have him hit you. Once this happens he can no longer do anything except fall to his death. If he waits and recovers with UpB merely edgehog him before he jumps just watch out for his massive sword that goes through the stage and could get in your way.

As for in general his jabs and other things that build up damage are things you should watch out for. Nothing is more dangerous than facing Ike than high %. Most of his KO moves can be seen a mile a way so they should be easy to dodge. He is heavier than most characters so a bthrow will won't kill at 120 but instead at 140 depending on how he DI's.

Keep your spacing and only attack to punish his lag as Ike can and will try to outspace your attacks. On platform stages watch out if you're on the platform above him as his sword will reach you their. His Utilt has more horizontal range than you might think to me it seems the hitbox extends somewhat past the tip of his sword.

Don't fight him on the ground as its death waiting to happen so instead juggle him in the air if possible. Most of his aerials have some start up lag (except for his bair) so its easy to punish.

Pillar spiking him is also I another methods Ness could use to gimp him, as if you miss you can normally catch him with your PKT2 right afterwards. Just aim yourself for the ledge and 9 times out of 10 you'll get there before he does or hit him out of his upB. Chances are he'll be trying to get back to ledge as well.

Ike does not have any longrange or projectile attacks so spam your PKTs and PKFs. Annoy him so much that he approaches you and when he tries to get you with dash attack sidestep, punish with a grab or whatever seems plausible.

Its rather easy to punish Ike as alot of his moves have lag afterwards that you can take advantage of. Thats pretty much it, Ike is rather disadvantaged here so you shouldn't face many problems here.

10foxesandnesses

 

[doom dragon 105]

ike has a definite advantage vs meta knight

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ike has a definite advantage vs meta knight

any proof?

 

[Rykoshet]

Yeah his delusion, mk vs ike is a fkn joke of a fight. MK ****s all over ike.

His neutral A combo is a big pain, and his utilt can be if timed right, If you can't get out of the way of neutral A, shield the WHOLE thing

"Except if he grabs you out of your shield, or resets the jab combo, or starts it again immediately."

Ike vs Fox is likely truly a 5:5, there's nothing fox can do up close that ike cant counteract with proper shielding and jab/grab setups. He's fast but he has to get in your face, the fact that ike gets access to quick draw as a travel/tech chase method bumps him up to boot.

 

[XACE-K]

ike has a definite advantage vs meta knight

If your on the stage I can understand but once both of you are off the stage, MK has the advantage.

 

[Falconv1.0]

ike has a definite advantage vs meta knight

Yeah, Ike' raw speed and ability to punish MK's laggy moves is too good.


Oh wait, ****.

 

[doom dragon 105]

i made a post about it

 

[Falconv1.0]

i made a post about it

And there was so little substance to it, seriously, who cares if MK dies at a lower percents than Ike, that's like saying Bowser beats Kirby, it's just not true.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

By that logic DDD > everyone, since his weight + recovery make him the hardest to beat...

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

By that logic DDD > everyone, since his weight + recovery make him the hardest to beat...

thats why they hate us 08ers ehh. Wyvern-x is like the smartest person to sign up this month. I don't think any of his posts have been a waste. You should add a link to the match up chart http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186338 and maybe the other topics used in it so lazy people will be more encouraged to argue for Ike.

edit: Well Lets see, Ike vs fox should be a neutral match up. "Shielding the whole thing" isn't a smart thing to do as you can reset it go into a grab or if he has been shielding the whole thing every time you get a jab in you can cancel it into a D tilt and poke trough his shield.

Fox is pretty hard to edge guard because of his shine stall but when he is put in the position where he needs to use his Side be right away (when Ike needs QD) he can be edge guarded easily. You can jump out and Fair, use eruption if you can time it right, Dair, or what I still think could be used to edge guard is Nair. During his side b he looses all control so you just have to wait for your chance.

Ness: Nair should qualify as another of "his only fast moves" maybe even Dair since it comes out pretty quick just has a good bit of post lag.

tilts leave as much of an impact as 2/3 of the smashes so you don't need to rely on them.

Side b is useless 10534% of the time. Thats why it owns so much.

"by playing smart" since yesterday Ike is not allowed to play smart I hope everyone got the memo they sent us.
Thats why we are using up b as an attack now.

To me when ever people talk about gimping Ike's >B I feel like they don't know how to fight Ike.

Like always you need to keep your moves Fast and wait for openings. Ness will try and use his Pk fires to keep you at bay and usually follow up with a grab if you get hit so shield them or use your dash attack if you have an opportunity as it will go trough it. Then just keep close to him and play a game of jab, shield grabs. The other thing he can use is his Fair which is pretty annoying. I'm sure your Fair and Nair can hit trough it though, plus shield dropping to jabs is awesome. (I'm actually reconsidering my thoughts on his aerials though)

For some reason I always find my self approaching with Dair, probably because Lucas does it, and it actually works well if you jump over one of his PKF you will hit him and end up behind him. Fairs are good if he is in the air and if you are coming down on him Nair's to jabs are the answer.

Now pillar spiking can be a problem you have to watch out for that. If you see him jump out try and save your second jump as long as you can. Turning on the tap jump helps out against this because Ness's spike owns and you can spam the tap jump unlike X and Y. The trying to get to the ledge before you if he misses can always backfire on him and allow you to get an easy aether spike.

I'm thinking that edge guarding this match could become extremely easy if you predict right. Ledge hopped Counters will lead into orgasms especially at high percents since his up B has so much knock back. If his aim sucks counter once again ofcourse this is pretty much like our QD so don't count on it.

 

[Wyvern-x]

Thanks Arturito. This topic has been added to that matchup chart already I believe.

 

[YagamiLight]

The original post seems to have not incorporated much of the list I posted. I suggest you look it over again and we shall have a debate so as to get a proper match-up list.

 

[Ussi]

Whatever was posted about Ness i have read from the Ness boards. I still don't see why its advantage to Ness? PK thunder does NOT gimp Ike, only stage spikes him for hanging on too long. Ike can pressure Ness's air game with his long reach. And Ike has longer reach on ground as well. Proper spacing allows Ike to actually do something in this fight. PK Fire requires DI to get out of then they'll start dash attacking since that covers more ground than grabbing. Ness can PK cross/flash (whatever) Up B, so if you see him charging, TIME YOUR AETHER TO HIS CHARGING OR USE QUICK DRAW!

I know Ness has nasty Aerials but it's not hard to see coming. A simply shield grab/turn around jab will get him if its NOT fair.

 

[Wyvern-x]

Updated a couple matchups.

 

[metroid1117]

edit: Well Lets see, Ike vs fox should be a neutral match up. "Shielding the whole thing" isn't a smart thing to do as you can reset it go into a grab or if he has been shielding the whole thing every time you get a jab in you can cancel it into a D tilt and poke trough his shield.

Fox is pretty hard to edge guard because of his shine stall but when he is put in the position where he needs to use his Side be right away (when Ike needs QD) he can be edge guarded easily. You can jump out and Fair, use eruption if you can time it right, Dair, or what I still think could be used to edge guard is Nair. During his side b he looses all control so you just have to wait for your chance.

Ike vs. Fox is 5-5? I would think it's 4-6 at the very least. Quoted from SCOTU from this thread:

... Ike has range and power, but since his attacks are slow (or otherwise easy to see coming from spacings), they're all easily avoidable on reaction. Ike has a difficult time zoning because his ranged moves take a while to come out and put away. His faster moves require a specific spacing (and don't cover him well) (i.e. bair).

[another post, same thread]

Fox's blaster ***** Ike. Ike is forced to approach, and cannot use any defensive stances, else, he'll eat ****assloads of damage from a laser. This means that the fox has a severe advantage. after forcing the ike to apporach, he has all the options in brawl to beat Ike, while Ike is limited to Brawl's ****ty-*** offensive options.

[in response to someone who suggested QD'ing to pressure a laser-spamming Fox]

yes it is. Ike's still approaching. He's still losing. The quick draw approach is pretty easy to beat: dash>shield>win. The point is that Ike doesn't have good approach options compared to fox's defensive options (due to the nature of brawl), and forcing ike to approach wrecks him.

In my personal opinion, Ike vs. Fox is a definite advantage for Fox; as I had posted on the same thread, "Fox's recovery is much better than Ike's, he is much faster than Ike, and he has a much easier time at comboing/juggling. Although Ike has range with aerials such as FAir, a smart Fox can just run in under Ike, shield the FAir, then punish. Ike's jab attack can only get him so far in this match-up, whereas his limited combo ability, gimpable recovery, and speed heavily weigh him down."

As for Fox's side+B making him vulnerable, yes, he is definitely in the most vulnerable position then but it's very hard to interrupt his side+B; a good Fox player will be able to DI so that either he can come back by either side+B'ing onto the stage or onto the edge and a smart Fox player will mix up going for the stage or the edge. Fox also has a much easier time punishing Ike when he gets the chance; DAir -> multiple UTilts -> USmash make for an easy 30%+, and continued laser spamming can refresh his USmash for kills while adding on some damage. He is also fast enough to get you with a grab if you miss even a well-spaced FAir and can gimp you off-stage with shinespikes.

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Also, I don't see how G&W is on the same level of difficulty to fight as MK; in my opinion, Ike vs. MK should be 3-7 MK's favor and G&W 4-6 G&W's favor. Both characters are light, but there's not nearly as much risk trying to go out and edgeguard a G&W compared to a MK. G&W may be able to kill much earlier than MK because of his ridiculous USmash and great FSmash/DSmash, but he has a harder time building up damage than MK; pretty much all he has for damage building is BAir, DAir -> DSmash, DThrow chasing (which you can tech, but leads to techchases), and BAir, all of which can be outspaced by FAir. While MK can be shut out by FAir, a smart MK will goad you into FAir'ing their shield then punish during the lag; G&W isn't fast enough to do this to a smart player.

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How is Ike vs. Peach 4.5-5.5? Admittedly, I don't have much experience against Peach, but you can fight her like Yoshi and just outrange her with FAirs. She's even easier to kill than Yoshi off the top if you save USmash, UAir, and maybe even Eruption; anyone care to clarify that rating?

 

[Rykoshet]

A shine spike attempt can be just as dangerous for fox as it is for ike. If he goes offstage and aether manages to trip him up in the slightest it's an automatic KO on fox. Fire fox is too easy to spike. Forcing the approach isnt as important as what the ike does on approach. Neutral air, back air spacing for retreats and quick draw feinting is kind of big in this matchup. Due to the spacies' nature in grab release/quick falling into combo oriented moves a single jab can really set fox up for pain (like 40ish damage I'm talking about). A fox's best option here is to stay on the stage, I wouldn't risk going off if it's not necessary. Luckily fox's recovery options here -are- much better than ike's but the fox needs to have his head on straight since illusion is pretty easy to figure out eventually.

Stick to stages with platforms here so the viability of using a no flinch blaster to force an approach becomes much lower.

 

[XACE-K]

Also, I don't see how G&W is on the same level of difficulty to fight as MK; in my opinion, Ike vs. MK should be 3-7 MK's favor and G&W 4-6 G&W's favor. Both characters are light, but there's not nearly as much risk trying to go out and edgeguard a G&W compared to a MK. G&W may be able to kill much earlier than MK because of his ridiculous USmash and great FSmash/DSmash, but he has a harder time building up damage than MK; pretty much all he has for damage building is BAir, DAir -> DSmash, DThrow chasing (which you can tech, but leads to techchases), and BAir, all of which can be outspaced by FAir. While MK can be shut out by FAir, a smart MK will goad you into FAir'ing their shield then punish during the lag; G&W isn't fast enough to do this to a smart player.

Agreed.

How is Ike vs. Peach 4.5-5.5? Admittedly, I don't have much experience against Peach, but you can fight her like Yoshi and just outrange her with FAirs. She's even easier to kill than Yoshi off the top if you save USmash, UAir, and maybe even Eruption; anyone care to clarify that rating?

I don't know much about it either but I would say it's 5-5.

 

[Tenki]

Ike vs. Fox is 5-5? I would think it's 4-6 at the very least. Quoted from SCOTU from this thread:



In my personal opinion, Ike vs. Fox is a definite advantage for Fox; as I had posted on the same thread, "Fox's recovery is much better than Ike's, he is much faster than Ike, and he has a much easier time at comboing/juggling. Although Ike has range with aerials such as FAir, a smart Fox can just run in under Ike, shield the FAir, then punish. Ike's jab attack can only get him so far in this match-up, whereas his limited combo ability, gimpable recovery, and speed heavily weigh him down."

As for Fox's side+B making him vulnerable, yes, he is definitely in the most vulnerable position then but it's very hard to interrupt his side+B; a good Fox player will be able to DI so that either he can come back by either side+B'ing onto the stage or onto the edge and a smart Fox player will mix up going for the stage or the edge. Fox also has a much easier time punishing Ike when he gets the chance; DAir -> multiple UTilts -> USmash make for an easy 30%+, and continued laser spamming can refresh his USmash for kills while adding on some damage. He is also fast enough to get you with a grab if you miss even a well-spaced FAir and can gimp you off-stage with shinespikes.

It's weird, alot of that applies to Sonic - everything except for recovery vulnerability and blaster spam to refresh kill moves. Just replace D-air combo with Spindash combo, and off-stage shinespike with... spring lol. `.`;
I don't know how many times I've seen the argument "Well, if _____ character spaces well with a retreating aerial, it's not punishable" when Sonic can just run under them and sliding-shield-grab or something to screw it all up.

Ike doesn't seem to have alot of answers if he's sent on a very low (like under shorthop height) aerial trajectory. If you get D-thrown by Sonic and DI upwards to avoid being tech-chased, your best choice would be to double jump ASAP so you can buy some time to perform an aerial to interrupt Sonic, otherwise you'll just get re-grabbed as you land.

but of course, most arguments will say that Sonic only approaches through the ground and a jab all his approaches, and he's somehow not fast enough to avoid and punish the moves that outprioritize him

 

[Deleted member]

ike absolutely pillages fox. Ike can beat all of fox's attacks literally with only jab. Also, ike destroys fox's recovery and doesn't really care about getting shinespiked at all.

sonic on the other hand can be decently challenging. unlike fox, sonic has more than upsmash if he wants to attack. sonic is a weird match for ike because it's hard for both players at the same time.

 

[Swordplay]

It is well known that TL>Link but there are rare matchups that Link just does better in.

Yosih boards said something similar when I talked to them

I'm curious as to what reason you believe Link is harder than TL. I'm not arguing I'm just wondering

 

[metroid1117]

It is well known that TL>Link but there are rare matchups that Link just does better in.

Yosih boards said something similar when I talked to them

I'm curious as to what reason you believe Link is harder than TL. I'm not arguing I'm just wondering

I'm not too sure either, but I'm assuming that they have the same annoyance level in terms of projectile spamming, so that evens out. While Link's recovery is absolutely horrible, he is pretty heavy compared to the rest of the cast, while T. Link is the opposite; with proper DI, T. Link is much easier to kill than Link. T. Link doesn't have the range and power that Link has, lacking an effective ZAir and kill moves. Link can chain attacks together moderately well with UTilt and has a longer grab range than T. Link, so I guess that explains for the difference.

 

[DMG]

I think Wario vs Ike is 6-4 advantage Wario. Ike obviously has better range and kill power (although Wario can kill pretty darn well too), but Wario has some good traits as well. He's faster in the air, can pressure well up close, is heavy and has a great recovery, he can edgeguard Ike pretty well, and Wario's fast on a lot of his moves. I just don't see how Ike has an advantage on Wario, even if it is small.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Ike has an easy way to kill warrio. If you get grabbed at 110% + your dead unless the Ike is completed ********.

Thats all I know about the match up though lol glad I said it first.

 

[Deleted member]

why a grab at 110

 

[YagamiLight]

why a grab at 110

The grab release links into the Up Tilt, and I think the forward tilt as well.

 

[DMG]

It's not very easy to land a grab on a good Wario, and 110% isn't exactly a low % to die at either.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Grabbing Wario is a pain in the @$$. That guy just moves around in the air like mad <_<

You'll never now, when he's gonna attack you...

 

[Deleted member]

The grab release links into the Up Tilt, and I think the forward tilt as well.

grab release into any tilt isn't a true combo on any character, but I could see that being a good surprise.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Having fought some decent Ikes and one really good one, I'm going to agree with putting Peach vs Ike at 5:5.

I don't think people truly appriciate just how hard Ike hits until it's too late. That's what's happened to me a few times and Peach's floatiness and light weight really doesn't help.

Having said that, Peach eats heavy characters for breakfast. Peach's Dair combos and Tilts (never approach from above unless you want an Up Tilt in the face) can rack up tons of damage on you. The biggest problem for Peach in this match up is that Ike has a sword. A really big one with HUGE range. Against really good Ike players, Peach can't simply just casually float or glide toss a turnip towards Ike because Ike's Fair (when correctly spaced) will knock her out of whatever shes doing. AAA combos/grabs are make this match up incredibly irritating for me and the fact that Ike can kill Peach so easily doesn't help either.

Peach has a projectile (Turnips) and she is going to use them because you don't have any. If you think she's going to Glide Toss them into your face, SH Fair her if you're close enough or try to Counter her. Be prepared to sheild grab her if she tries to hit you with an aerial and lands too close. Remember, you can grab her whilst she's Floating, even if she's near the ground

If you get predictable, Toad is going to cause you major problems. You have to play smart and abuse Ike's range which is a hell of a lot larger than Peach's

Speaking of Toad, he is the bane of your recovery. If you get Toaded during your Aether at the correct time, you will get blasted by the spores. Never abuse the whole 'ledge drop to Aether' thing because if you get predicted, you'll get Toaded. And I wouldn't plan on coming back. Be careful when using your Side B because that can also be Toaded. I personally like to jump down and Toad Ike when he attempts to side B towards the ledge so he can grab onto it. It's your choice but I personally wouldn't try to jump off and spike Peach in an attempt to edgeguard her because you leave yourself very open for getting edgeguarded

As daft as it sounds, you have to make good use of aerials. You outrange Peach in everything including her aerials which is her strong point and I cannot stress how well a spaced Fair works against a Dair abusing Peach. I personally think this match up is even. If the players are evenly skilled, it's going to be a very long game indeed for both Peach and Ike

 

[Wyvern-x]

Dr.mario guy can you give some reasons as to why you find it 6-4 for Wario?

As for Peach I want what everyone else thinks before I change something.

 

[XACE-K]

Make vs Peach 5-5 and vs Wario 5.5-4.5.

Wario is strong but his kill moves are laggy, his recovery is better than yours and just like what Gheb said, he moves around in the air like crazy.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Anyone feel like making Mk 6-4 or 5-5? That one kind of got skipped since two other threads started talking about it.

 

[DMG]

Wario is strong but his kill moves are laggy, his recovery is better than yours and just like what Gheb said, he moves around in the air like crazy.

Wario's only laggy kill move is Fsmash, and there's not enough lag on it for you to hit with anything devastating if he hits your shield or if you spotdodge IIRC (Maybe Dsmash, maybe not). His recovery and edgeguarding are obviously better and he can gimp Ike pretty bad, even at really low %'s.

Wario focuses on getting up close and beating you out in speed while you try to keep him at bay with your range. It's hard for Ike to do that if he has to worry about Wario being able to dodge it better than most of the cast. That combined with the advantages Wario has in recovery, edgeguarding, air maneuverability, and pressuring, is the reason I think it is 6:4 for Wario.

 

[YagamiLight]

Anyone feel like making Mk 6-4 or 5-5? That one kind of got skipped since two other threads started talking about it.

That's an incredibly hard choice to make. Basically, you stack Ike's two gigantic things going for him on a scale in which MK has a pile of little things. The way that scale tips purely depends on how the Ike and MK play, and that is the definition of a neutral match-up, is it not?

Bah, just go ahead and make it a neutral match-up. I'll be posting a really large analysis in my match-up topic in just a little bit, so stay tuned.

Actually, on another note, Snake might possibly be equal as well actually we'll debate that later, MK first.

 

[Brinzy]

Ness: Nair should qualify as another of "his only fast moves" maybe even Dair since it comes out pretty quick just has a good bit of post lag.

I'm sorry, what? Ness's dair is his SLOWEST aerial, so if you find it quick, then all of his aerials are quick.

For some reason I always find my self approaching with Dair, probably because Lucas does it, and it actually works well if you jump over one of his PKF you will hit him and end up behind him. Fairs are good if he is in the air and if you are coming down on him Nair's to jabs are the answer.

Approaching with dair to get over PKF? One, Ness has so many techniques with PKF that are aerial that you'll want to actually try a fair or nair to hit him. Two, I don't see how Ike can reach Ness with a dair if Ness spaces out his PKF on the ground. Three, that lag time that you'll get from landing with dair or fair (I am assuming there is no way to cancel out this lag) is enough time for Ness to recover from throwing out PKF and getting out a quick grab (f-throw and b-throw are the main two you need to watch out for; f-throw because it has very, very high knockback at early %s and it can force Ike into an Aether recovery, and b-throw because it kills Ike at somewhere around 135% without DI, though I haven't actually tested this, so this number could be off).

Definitely stick with fair and nair for approaching, or bair if that's your thing for some reason.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I was replying to a previous statement in that first quote and talking about Ike

As for the throws killing with out DI shouldn't even be mentioned because I think all throws are incredibly easy to DI you just have to start holding a direction when your grabbed and once you see which throw it is you just adjust it a bit.

Forcing into the aether recovery is also something not worth mentioning as Ike should be using aether 99% of the time. I suppose I was wrong on the PKF thing though. I was sort of thinking out loud.

 

[Empy]

My thoughts in white:

Fox 5-5 N Should be 6-4 A at least. Ike can hit Fox all around the stage and all he can do back is laser a bit from a distance.
Ice Climbers 4-6 D Why D? I've never had problems with IC's anyone care to explain?
Ivysaur 5-5 N Same as IC really, might be that the Ivysaur users I've played are lacking but I usually just space fair and be done with it.
Link 4-6 D Should be 6-4 A Link isn't that bad, if you learn to dodge the bombs, know how his gale works and just block or spotdodge those arrows, you have nothing to be afraid off (well fsmash but that's a joke).
Lucas 4-6 D I think it's a 3-7 D, his PK thunder can really destroy you.
Meta Knight 3-7 D Should be 4-6 D
Ness 3.5-6.5 D Ness can't be worse than Lucas. That's just not true. In fact I think Ness is 5-5. The only thing he's got on Ike is a projectile game. However, Ike can just grab release to jab-cancel and re-grab. So like AA, cancel, grab, grab attack until release, A (/AA) cancel, regrab etc... Only air release is a real problem with this but might even help to get an usmash or something in.
Also, do remember that where Lucas his PK thunder can kill you easily, Ness will actually send you towards the stage and you'll survive.
Pit 3-7 D This seems a bit much. Sure he's got that shield but what else makes this hard?