The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Xebenkeck]

Just a question how well does Jiggz do against Falco?

because i was of the opinion she did well against him, he can't chaingrab her, i believe she can duck under lasers, or just fly over them, and once falco is off stage Jiggz can wreck him.

And just overall Jiggz seems to have easier match-ups against the top characters, then CF.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Just a question how well does Jiggz do against Falco?

because i was of the opinion she did well against him, he can't chaingrab her, i believe she can duck under lasers, or just fly over them, and once falco is off stage Jiggz can wreck him.

And just overall Jiggz seems to have easier match-ups against the top characters, then CF.

I would say that match-up is 45:55, Falco. What you said there is true, she's extremely good against Falco compared to most of the roster. It's still not good enough to tip it in her favor though.

I mean, I use Jiggypuff a LOT. I just don't think she has it much easier than a Falcon who actually knows what they're doing. Neither of them really have much representation though, so what would I know. Jigglypuff has her advantages since she can stay in the air constantly; the one place where she dominates majority of the roster. But that's pretty much the only place she has an advantage; she can batter people around with her air game rather they're in the air or on the ground, just like a Peach player would (I hate to compare two characters, but it's pretty much the truth).

Her forward air and Pound are the two main things she has to levy her match-ups since they're her two safest approaches to out space another character's attacks (or out-prioritize them). It's not really a BAD thing, since she uses them to start majority of her 'combos', but it just makes her seem rather... limited.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Her forward air and Pound are the two main things she has to levy her match-ups since they're her two safest approaches to out space another character's attacks (or out-prioritize them). It's not really a BAD thing, since she uses them to start majority of her 'combos', but it just makes her seem rather... limited.

You should never be using Pound to approach. Bair is much better for approaching.

 

[Darky-Sama]

You should never be using Pound to approach. Bair is much better for approaching.

Oh, I know. I meant 'they're her safest moves for outspacing a player'. Pound has priority, and of course the fair wrecks in range. Bair, not as good as the fair, but you don't want to keep pressuring with the same move and stale it. Bair should definantly be thrown in there some, same with the rest of her moves. rofl

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Mario could, should and probably will move up. He's been gaining more tournament rep, thankfully. I hate seeing how underrated he's been treated. He gives just about all of his match-ups a fair amount of difficulty. But like you said, he's just lacking the reputation. I'd actually like to see more Marios in the tournament seen.

Could? Yes. Should? Debatable. Probably Will? lolno. If anything, his tourney rep has fallen since the last tier list. That ain't going to bump him up. There is also the problem he's very easy to CP: lol D3. Even with the infinity not being true to 130: I'd still give it a go. I could probably get quite a few off before he escaped. IIRC, he has a couple 35-65s as well: that ain't giving his opponent much trouble, that's battling simply to survive. I think he'll be lucky to keep his current spot in the next tier list.

I'm also predicting both PT and Bowser will fall: Bowser's rep has taken another tiny dip downwards, and now that Reflex isn't winning as many tournaments with PT, the reason PT jumped up is no longer there to support him. Ike has been consistently outplacing him for a while now, the tier list should reflect that fact, and the fact all of the "ZONG PT FOR C TIER" hype is finally going away. Zelda will probably fall as well, simply because everyone's opinion of her has been falling and falling.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Could? Yes. Should? Debatable. Probably Will? lolno. If anything, his tourney rep has fallen since the last tier list. That ain't going to bump him up.

Seriously? I remember seeing in early posts in this thread that Mario had been GAINING tournament representation, not losing it. I wouldn't know about that though, I don't really keep up to date with the Mario rep. My bad on that failure.

I still stick with my first quote though, I think he had the potential, but he's just lacking the rep. Especially if he's been losing it, that makes things even worse. lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

Im of the impression that Ike and ness are the best characters in low tier currently (with mario after)

Im starting to wonder who is better tho, i think ike could possibly be the last character in mid tier and ness being the top character in low tier, but ness has been getting some abnormally high tourney placings, and Im trying to figure out if ness really is good enough to avoid getting gayed in tournament and beat people like that, or is just nobody taking him seriously and people are still trying to hit him out of pk thunder right before the bolt hits ness.

is ness really as good as some of his tourney placings say? or is he just massively underrated by the people playing against him and getting free wins as a result note that the two are differnt and being underrated in game doesnt mean hes actually good.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Seriously? I remember seeing in early posts in this thread that Mario had been GAINING tournament representation, not losing it. I wouldn't know about that though, I don't really keep up to date with the Mario rep. My bad on that failure.

I still stick with my first quote though, I think he had the potential, but he's just lacking the rep. Especially if he's been losing it, that makes things even worse. lol

Look at the Character Rankings List

At the start of Tier List 3, he was 8th last. Now he's 6th last. Though he was as low as 4th last IIRC, so technically he could be up from then, but not overall from the last tier list.

It's not a prefect list obvious (Character Rankings List), but it gives good insight.

KID, Ike doesn't belong out of D tier. Nobody in D tier or lower currently should ever, ever leave that area unless something gamebreaking occurs. It would simply be foolish to truly believe otherwise, and I for one hope nobody in the SBR thinks that, as it would be a huge sign that they aren't up with the metagame at all and need to leave. Like wise, nobody in C tier should to drop to D tier.

For the most part, characters are currently in their correct tiers. The only grey areas really are D/E tier, and maybe A/B tier.

 

[DanGR]

I think Yoshi, PT, and perhaps Mario are the best in low tier right now, as far as low tier tournaments go, at least. Ike... is just relatively easy to pick up. I know I'll get boo'ed for saying that... <_<

As far as regular tournaments go, PT and Yoshi seem to have the best chance at winning a large tournament. The rest are easily counterpick screwed, or just have a really, really terrible matchup spread... and thus the formation of low tier is formed.

 

[Flayl]

I'd like to point out that if the Mario player proves he can break out from the infinite at early %, the dedede can still get a guaranteed 44% with 4xDthrow + Bthrow. Kind of like Falco's chaingrab except it works at any %, can work again if you hit Mario with 4 other moves and sets up for an edgeguard instead of a spike.

Of course the regular chaingrab will probably set up the edgeguard better, but it's a lot of guaranteed damage.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Look at the Character Rankings List

At the start of Tier List 3, he was 8th last. Now he's 6th last. Though he was as low as 4th last IIRC, so technically he could be up from then, but not overall from the last tier list.

It's not a prefect list obvious (Character Rankings List), but it gives good insight.

KID, Ike doesn't belong out of D tier. Nobody in D tier or lower currently should ever, ever leave that area unless something gamebreaking occurs. It would simply be foolish to truly believe otherwise, and I for one hope nobody in the SBR thinks that, as it would be a huge sign that they aren't up with the metagame at all and need to leave. Like wise, nobody in C tier should to drop to D tier.
For the most part, characters are currently in their correct tiers. The only grey areas really are D/E tier, and maybe A/B tier.

zelda should definitely drop a tier... maybe two...

 

[da K.I.D.]

also,

because I like bringing this up and stiring the pot

popo is better than ganon (and a few other characters too.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIehjwG12fY&feature=sub

3:40 if you dont want to watch the whole thing.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Zelda is already in D tier KID. >_>

 

[da K.I.D.]

Zelda is already in D tier KID. >_>

i get c and D mixed up sometimes lol.

also more stuffs for discussion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRUbGbeLag0

 

[Flayl]

Does the telport only when the IC's use an aerial or it something else?

Anyway that should be banned IMO.

 

[FatJackieChan]

Just my input on the tier list, i've constantly been adjusting this over the past few months listening and reading the arguements of various people in various threads about each of the characters and this is what i've come up with:

S-MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco Wario,
A-IC, Marth, DDD, Lucario, Pikachu, Olimar, G&W
B-ZSS, ROB, Kirby, DK, Toon Link, Pit
C-Peach, Shiek, Luigi, Fox, Wolf, Sonic
D-PT, Bowser, Ike, Ness, Mario, Lucas
E-Yoshi, Zelda, Samus, Jigglypuff, Link
F-C.Falcon, Ganon.

So what do you guys think, input would be nice.

Not bad. I have a couple of things, but they aren't that bad.

1. Lucario vs Pikachu? Pikachu has amazing chaingrabs and his recovery is oh so good. Lucario is easily gimped. Although strong at high percents he dies easily. I think Pikachu is a little better than that.

2. Kirby vs DK? I LOVE KIRBY, but I have seen people 0-death with DK's footstools, I think DK might have the edge on Kirby.

3. Pokemon Trainer. I think he should be lower than Mario, maybe even Lucas. Ivysour is alright, but that is all that he has going for him.

4. Zelda? Why so low. She has great camping game, an even better recovery, and a good close combat defense system. She is one of the best characters for defense. She can't approach, but she is better than Yoshi. I'd place her by Peach and Sheik.

5. I have to comment that the Link placement is good. He is gaining a little bit of game, but not that much. Good job.

6. All in all a great list

 

[Shenlong]

Lucario doesn't have the world's best recovery, but he is not as easily gimped as you may believe.

 

[da K.I.D.]

3. Pokemon Trainer. I think he should be lower than Mario, maybe even Lucas. Ivysour is alright, but that is all that he has going for him.

4. Zelda? Why so low. She has great camping game, an even better recovery, and a good close combat defense system. She is one of the best characters for defense. She can't approach, but she is better than Yoshi. I'd place her by Peach and Sheik.

Ivy is BY FAR the worst of the three pokemon. and Squirtle by himself would easily be high tier. char. is fat and has good range and he has ROCK SMASH! which is kinda broke... You misspelled ivysaur, but as bad as she is in this game im just going to continue calling her ivysour from now on.

zeldas camp game is garbage, her projectile is lame and can be evaded/beat very easily
her recovery is just as terrible, its laggy and can be punished easily, pre and post teleportation.
and her cqc isnt great either, she has some tricks, but every character in the game has tricks. and most everyone elses are better than hers.

 

[Toby.]

3. Pokemon Trainer. I think he should be lower than Mario, maybe even Lucas. Ivysour is alright, but that is all that he has going for him.

Hm you clearly don't know much about pokemon trainer :/

You might want to hold your judgment until you learn a bit more about the characters you're discussing.

edit: kid beat me to it.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I'm really not too supportive on Zelda making much improvement. She's not bad, but she's REALLY not all that good either. The only time I would consider using her in a competitive match is if the match-up with Sheik is absolutely horrible. I guess she's pretty viable if you change back and forth from Zelda/Sheik mid-battle too, but alone, she's really lacking the tools to get much higher.

 

[Chuee]

Ignore FJC. Dude don't know wtf he's talkin about.

 

[Smoom77]

Does the telport only when the IC's use an aerial or it something else?

Anyway that should be banned IMO.

He teleports when he tries to jump from the ledge, or certain parts of the air.

 

[B.Link]

Eh screw tiers thats all i have to say =]

 

[Chuee]

That's what they all say.
Until they get ***** by mk.

 

[Shenlong]

No it's more like screw tiers until a low tier beats a high tier then tiers exists again.....

 

[Smoom77]

No, more like screw tiers until they realize low tiers don't win tournaments. >_>

 

[Xebenkeck]

4. Zelda? Why so low. She has great camping game, an even better recovery, and a good close combat defense system. She is one of the best characters for defense. She can't approach, but she is better than Yoshi. I'd place her by Peach and Sheik.

Dropping that many spots i understand is a bit drastic, but if she only drops two-four spots on the next list, she will still be placed to high in many people's eyes.(mine included) So why delay? I put her where I believe she will eventually end up. Whether it be this next up coming list, or one further in the future, trust me she'll be down there.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Not bad. I have a couple of things, but they aren't that bad.

1. Lucario vs Pikachu? Pikachu has amazing chaingrabs and his recovery is oh so good. Lucario is easily gimped. Although strong at high percents he dies easily. I think Pikachu is a little better than that.

Not 100% sure on Lucario vs Pikachu. I'll let someone else explain this one.

2. Kirby vs DK? I LOVE KIRBY, but I have seen people 0-death with DK's footstools, I think DK might have the edge on Kirby.

Kirby is better if only because he doesn't get counterpicked so easily. Anyone up against DK can use DDD to infinite him, and since the infinite isn't that hard to learn... yeah. Wario can chaingrab him to high percents to, but it's less severe.

3. Pokemon Trainer. I think he should be lower than Mario, maybe even Lucas. Ivysour is alright, but that is all that he has going for him.

Lolno. Ivysaur is the worst of the three. Squirtle is the Pokemon that's a notch above the rest (he's kinda like a mini-Wario). PT rep has proved that the character has potential, and I think we'll be seeing more of it in the future.

4. Zelda? Why so low. She has great camping game, an even better recovery, and a good close combat defense system. She is one of the best characters for defense. She can't approach, but she is better than Yoshi. I'd place her by Peach and Sheik.

I don't agree that Zelda should be 4th worst, but she does suck badly. Here's why:

- Her camping game is NOT great. Din's is incredibly slow, meaning that you can airdodge or shield, or you can use an aerial attack to cancel it out. Din;s main use is for mindgames due to its hax range, not camping.

- Her recovery is extremely gimpable. It might be long distance, but it's difficult to sweetspot the ledge, and it has 30 frames of start-up lag, and roughly the same amount of ending lag when she lands, making it easy to intercept. Her recovery sucks.

- Her close range game isn't that good tbh. Many of her moves close range are either unsafe on block, or have noticeable start-up. The only exception is DTilt, and that has its range stuck against the ground, so you can jump over it and avoid it.

- As you said, she can't approach. All of her approaches are unsafe on block, and easy to punish. And since she can't camp, that means she's often forced to approach, which is obviously not good.

- Zelda is indeed a very good defensive character. With solid ooS options, USmash, DSmash and safe on block moves, her defense is undoubtedly solid. The problem? She doesn't have the opportunity to use this great defense much, since she's often forced to approach due to her aforementioned camping issues.

- She's also incredibly vulnerable in the air. Seriously, she has 9001 blindspots. Attack her from any angle other than directly horizontally and directly vertically, and she has little to no options to counteract. The only options she has are FF Nair (short ranged and only covers certain angles) and Nayru's to stall (very high cooldown).


- All in all, terrible MUs. She goes 35:65 or worse against MK, Snake, Wario, Falco, Marth, Mr G&W and Olimar, and has a wholelot of 40:60s as well. In fact, the only top tiers she does OK against are DDD (50:50) and ICs (45:55 or 50:50, thank **** for FSmash).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I still say the "Zelda is bottom tier" thing is a bandwagon. She's top of low tier or bottom of mid, probably the former.

 

[Conviction]

Bandwagon of truth?

But in all seriousness Zelda can get outplayed too easily just because of camping.

 

[<π]

zelda has no answers to campers. he reflector and moveset and movement in general are just bad at dealing with projectiles and being camped. I can definitely out play a lot of people with her. but pretty much any character can just poke at you and win. Zelda has one of the best defensive games out there. but her lack of offensive options really make that huge strength pointless.

 

[Zankoku]

I think invulnerable Zelda is high tier. Too bad she only lasts for two seconds.

 

[Conviction]

Yea IF she had a good camping game (Din's Fire is too easy to PS/Reflector/Dodge) she could actually use that defense....but due the fact she is forced to approach almost all the time the great defense is non-existant, which makes her a bad char.

Bandwagon of Truth?

Lol Ankoku.

 

[DanGR]

Her defense isn't even great, imo. <.<

There are too many holes in it.

Edit: "Holes" as in hold down the shield button.

ha

 

[<π]

lol, nah, usmash OOS is crazy good fsmash (piviot fsmash) dtilt dash attack. her move set is actually really good when you have people being overly aggressive.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Truths:

- Ness and Pokemon Trainer are mid tier. Possibly Ike as well but he really blows vs high tiers hard
- ZSS and Lucario are high tier; perhaps bottom of it, but high tier
- Toon Link is underrated
- Pit is high tier. If you don't believe it, you haven't played Kool-aid =/
- Rob, Kirby, Game and Watch, Dedede, and Wario are all too high. Wario should be where Dedede is now.
- Link is too low
- Diddy Kong is too low
- Fox is much, much too low
- ICs would be too low if CPs and air/platform camping didn't exist

 

[<π]

I can agree with all of those statements. I haven't played cool-aid.

CO18 whooped my sheik with pit yesterday. his moveset is just really good, disjoints, decent power, good recovery and good speed over all.

 

[DanGR]

If you're ever playing over-aggro against Zelda you're doing it wrong. You can play offensively against Zelda. Just be patient and take advantage of her horrible mobility. Punish her for moving from her spot (dash attack, running upsmash, & aerials), throw in attacks that pressure the right spots when she's rendered immobile (hang out in that area outside of upsmash. DI fsmash if that hits you), and shield a ton (lol 14 frame grab). There isn't much she can do to respond to that kind of zoning game, and it all stems from her atrocious mobility. Her attacks are decent. Everything else isn't.

Heck, you can punish her for using just about any of her attacks that don't hit you if you're close enough, even if she didn't run towards you with one of them. And yes, fsmash & upsmash have enough lag for most characters to punish.

 

[-Mars-]

If you just run away from Zelda you will win. Also she will never beat you on your counterpick if you have half a brain, so if you win game 1 the set is over.

 

[Chuee]

Ness isn't mid tier..................