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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

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Conviction

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See where you are coming from but like my case senerio with Fox's Laser being PS'd wouldn't Falco have to be in a certain distance to follow up. Plus if reflect but some type of reflector Falco's Laser most probably no..... will reach him and would have to respone to that whereas Fox's Laser gets reflected most of the time won't hit/get to him.

EDIT: thanks for the clarification DMG. My only thing is (doesn't have to with some one PSing) Foxes are always supposed to have last laser be fairly close to the ground. If not they are doing it wrong.
 

Zankoku

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Yeah, you're not punishing shieldstun from a Fox laser, lol. It does, what, 3% at point blank no decay? That gives it shieldstun equivalent to a weak first jab. And the shieldlag is pretty negligible, especially if powershielded.
 

St. Viers

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@Kewkky: Thats why I said secondary--being able to pull him out when you need to is great. Kinda like DK--another character that you can't afford to main, but is an excellent tool in some cases.
 

etecoon

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the thing is...why would you even bother shielding fox's laser at that range? he's going to be lagging from it, you just run in and punish, falco forces an action because his lasers halt your movement and stun you

...if the other character has a reflector...falco can use his own when he hits the ground and that works at some spacings, but I'm not sure who's reflector would break first or if the other one would simply outlast his...
 

Dark.Pch

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I think it's going to be harder to land those moves though. sheik actually kills lower than any of zelda's stuff with usmash I believe with the exception of uair I suppose. and ftilt to usmash is far from hard to do on D3. You can also jab into kills which again is crazy easy on d3;s huge frame.

Zelda isn't a bad choice but I don't wanna be down thrown off stage and die either at some low percent.
Just what is Sheik gonna be gaoona DDD with well. You only have one good option. Zelda has more options to kill that Shiek. Which is why it is a smart move from sheik players that they switch to Zelda when the enemy is at high %. And her smash attacks can even pressure big characters shields.

xIblisx- For one thing, Some may have trouble killing with peach. or setting up for the final blow. problem is sometimes you have to use the moves you would need to finishes your enemy off to begin with. But using the moves alot makes it weaker. So in a sense, it is hard to kill with peach. But depending on how you play, that task can be reduce. But also keep in mind on how smart your enemy is.

B- Her recovery.
You can be left a sitting duck in the air with Peach. Recovering from the skies back to the stage can be a problem as well since she fall slow in the air. You can get juggled easy cause of this. So you need to be very careful when recovering to the stage. And when you land while in your Up-B animation, you will lag. Its not like melee when you touch the floor and you can move right after. So recover with care. also a tip, when you are coming down from the skies and did not use your Up-B, Dont try to attack while recovering. Its safe to just try to land without getting hit. a times you may be able to get a dair or w/e air attack in. But make sure you know you can hit. get the timing and spacing down right. Cause just doing that your putting yourself at risk for a KO. Your mission at this point is to land safe on the stage.

C- Dsmash.
One of the many reasons People complain about Peach or left her. Her Dsmash got weak. and cant kill. Its pretty much the same as in melee, but you cant kill with it and has less power.

D- No Float Cancel.
FC (Float cancel) was one of the best things Peach had in melee. it was about 80% of her game. She does not have that anymore. And so people wont get confused, FC is when you Float, do an air attack, then land and there is no lag after. Now it may seem like when you Float then do an air attack and land, you dont lag at all. Reason for that is if you land at the right time, you will auto cancel the move, so you can attack right after. try landing a Fair at different times while floating and watch you lag. So there is no FC for Peach.

E- Easily KO'ed.
You can die pretty quick with Peach due to her lightweight. there are some characters that can kill you at crazy %. So you have to be aware of that and be careful with how you handle yourself against them.

D- Her second jump.
it barely has any height. so you wont really get anywhere with it at all. But it does have its uses. Keep reading and you will see further in this guide.

Cons:

* Floaty.
* Slow dash speed
* Vertical recovery is rather poor.
* Shortest vertical mid-air jump in the game (Slightly shorter than Link's & Ganondorf's)
* Noticeable ending lag if you fail to connect with Peach Bomber.
* Dies vertically at relatively low percents.
* Her Turnips disappear once they hit a shield, which removes the possibility of using a turnip again
* hard to KO at moderate percentages
* Vegetables can be used against her
 

Kewkky

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@Kewkky: Thats why I said secondary--being able to pull him out when you need to is great. Kinda like DK--another character that you can't afford to main, but is an excellent tool in some cases.
Yeah, well, I agree with you. :mad:
 

DMG

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There is little reason for someone to switch to Zelda from Shiek. Like I know the main argument is "well cause Zelda has an easier time killing, Fsmash/Usmash/kick", but like most of those moves, if you get hit by them, you are doing something very wrong.

Zelda is one of the easiest characters to "run away" from. In fact, most people tell you to switch from Zelda TO Shiek because that problem of hers is severe enough. Now I'm not gonna argue about Dedede, he's not a running away character to start with so it doesn't really matter concerning him, but the majority of the time switching to Zelda turns out for the worse instead of for the better.

Shiek has some fairly safe poking options/options overall. I think Shiek players put too much emphasis on trying to get a kill immediately once someone is in kill range. What would be better, taking 40+ damage or potentially dying trying to land a DACUS/Usmash/Dsmash on the opponent, or doing 10% to them over the span of 2 minutes while taking no damage yourself?
 

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Just what is Sheik gonna be gaoona DDD with well. You only have one good option. Zelda has more options to kill that Shiek. Which is why it is a smart move from sheik players that they switch to Zelda when the enemy is at high %. And her smash attacks can even pressure big characters shields.
While Zelda does indeed have more killing options at lower KO percents, I would never, ever transform in several matchups simply because it's trading off Sheik's inability to kill in exchange for Zelda's inability to catch up and even land a single hit. This isn't the case for Dedede, but **** happens when you try for something like that against Meta Knight, Snake, Marth, and Wario, just to name a few.
 

Conviction

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Ahh I see but I still but it in this order.

1)Peach
2/3)Shiek
2/3)Fox
4)Wolf

The explainations seemed to come out the exact way I thought they would.
Does anyone have complaints about the Potential list above?
 

DMG

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Shiek is better than Fox. Her matchup spread is more bearable than his IMO.
 

etecoon

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I think sheik is better than peach, actually they wouldn't be in the same tier in my list...
 

Kewkky

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Nah etecoon, I'm pretty sure peach is better than Sheik. I got experience against both characters at veeery high levels of play, and Peach is a ***** to beat compared to Sheik.
 

etecoon

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might be meta knight main bias, I think we're one of peach's worst if not the worst matchup...
 

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I think MK is prob sheik/zelda's worst match up as well...

I also feel sheik is a better character over all than peach. she has much better match ups in the top teirs as well
 

etecoon

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I know, just explaining where my bias towards peach comes from, maybe I underrate peach because my character does too well against her

I think MK is prob sheik/zelda's worst match up as well...
really? I've always found sheik easier if I use marth......maybe I do it wrong : p
 

Conviction

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I'll just go ahead and spectate an put little info I know, but Shiek and Peach I don't know much about. Soo.....


EDIT:
:I know, just explaining where my bias towards peach comes from, maybe I underrate peach because my character does too well against most characters!
Lol I had to do that.
 

DMG

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Peach has worse weaknesses/similar weaknesses to Shiek that are worse IMO. Like Peach has a REALLY hard time dealing with good zoning. Shiek has ******** stuff like Dash to Shield, crouch to PS, etc. Like It's much easier to pick MK/Marth/G&W and zone Peach IMO than it is Shiek. Then, getting back to the ground safely is a pain for her and even though it's kinda hard for Shiek, it's slightly easier. Then, getting back onto the stage options from the edge. Peach is really limited there where as Shiek can abuse the smaller amount of "edge lag" she gets when she uses Side B.

They both struggle to kill, I think Shiek has it somewhat easier because of DACUS out of nowhere/having an overall better edge guard game. If Peach could DACUS like Shiek, OMG people would Flee in Terror lol.

IDK whenever I pick someone like Marth against Peach, I feel like I obviously have the easier time. When I do that against Shiek, it feels like I have an easier time, but have to pay closer attention/watch out for more/be faster/etc.
 

Dark.Pch

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I think MK is prob sheik/zelda's worst match up as well...

I also feel sheik is a better character over all than peach. she has much better match ups in the top teirs as well
Peach vs Meta- 40-60
Peach vs Snake- 45-55
Peach Vs Peach Vs Diddy 60-40
Peach vs DDD- 50-50
Peach Vs Marth 40-60
Peach vs IC 60-40
Peach Vs Olimar- 60-40
Peach Vs G&W- 45-55
Peach Vs Pikachu- 50-50
Peach vs Kirby- 50-50

Your turn.
 

BRoomer
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I know, just explaining where my bias towards peach comes from, maybe I underrate peach because my character does too well against her



really? I main MK and I've always found sheik easier if I use marth......maybe I do it wrong :p
I'm maybe a little baised there myself MK is the only match up I've been losing in tourney. I do pretty well against marth right now only marth to know my out of tourney in the last few months is HRnut and even that was a 2-1 set.

I think a lot of sheik's don't really understand how to approach her match ups right now. They can be way to agressive. against marth obviously with no disjoints that is going to get you in trouble you have to punish marth more so that out right approach him.
 

Zatchiel

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Ku ku ku, these tier list make feel weird about using my ness, but a little better about my olimar.
 

BRoomer
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Peach vs Meta- 40-60
Peach vs Snake- 45-55
Peach Vs Peach Vs Diddy 60-40
Peach vs DDD- 50-50
Peach Vs Marth 40-60
Peach vs IC 60-40
Peach Vs Olimar- 60-40
Peach Vs G&W- 45-55
Peach Vs Pikachu- 50-50
Peach vs Kirby- 50-50

Your turn.
wheres falco? :)

Sheik vs Meta- 40-60
Sheik vs Snake- 50-50
Sheik Vs Sheik Vs Diddy 50-50
Sheik/Zelda vs DDD- 40-60
Sheik Vs Marth 50-50
Sheik/Zelda vs IC 40-60
Sheik Vs Olimar- 60/40
Sheik Vs G&W- 50-50
Sheik Vs Pikachu- 60-40
Sheik vs Kirby- 50-50
Sheik vs Falco - 50-50 OH WAIT! tilt lock 60-40

I'm crazy though, lol. Most sheiks aren't going to agree with me on a lot of this. but I'm going from how I've been doing in tourney and friendlies against top players in our region. Oli could be 6/4 sheiks favor.
 

Conviction

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Wow that's some close MU compare and constrating their. >.>

Fox vs. MK 40:60
Fox vs Snake- 50-50
Fox Vs Diddy 50-50
Fox vs DDD- 55:45
Fox vs Marth 40-60
Fox vs IC 30-70 <.<
Fox vs Olimar- 45:55
Fox vs G&W- 50-50
Fox vs Pikachu- 30-70 <.<
Fox vs Kirby- 40-60
Fox vs Falco 50:50

I hate you both XD
 

Dark.Pch

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Peach has worse weaknesses/similar weaknesses to Shiek that are worse IMO. Like Peach has a REALLY hard time dealing with good zoning. Shiek has ******** stuff like Dash to Shield, crouch to PS, etc. Like It's much easier to pick MK/Marth/G&W and zone Peach IMO than it is Shiek. Then, getting back to the ground safely is a pain for her and even though it's kinda hard for Shiek, it's slightly easier. Then, getting back onto the stage options from the edge. Peach is really limited there where as Shiek can abuse the smaller amount of "edge lag" she gets when she uses Side B.
That's not true. First off. Peach has many options to approach. She is one of the best approachers in the game. Peach can even get inside fools like Marth with good spacing, approaching and NOT BEING TYPICAL ABOUT IT. The good Marths that I play here have a hard time getting inside me. I know how to space and I know my enemies options Peach Bair is a pain for Marth when space correctly. That move is the key to getting inside Marth. Second comes Fair. Also, Peach has lots of options to get back on stage, she is not as limited as shiek. Really to a point you can force Shiek to get back on the stage a certain way, then Punish. And Peach is not a simple character to just gimp. People gimp shiek better than Peach.

They both struggle to kill, I think Shiek has it somewhat easier because of DACUS out of nowhere/having an overall better edge guard game. If Peach could DACUS like Shiek, OMG people would Flee in Terror lol.
I have more options and better set ups to kill. People keep letting "Peach can't kill well" downgrade her so hard. They both steuggle to kill. But who has more options? Peach does. And I rack up damage better/faster than you do. her pressure game is good and I edgegaurd/gimp better. I'm killing better than shiek.

DK whenever I pick someone like Marth against Peach, I feel like I obviously have the easier time. When I do that against Shiek, it feels like I have an easier time, but have to pay closer attention/watch out for more/be faster/etc.
You seem to seriously downgrade the options peach has on Marth, I already tore this match up down into peices in this thread. You are being bias right now in stead of real cause you think Shiek is better. when too much has been proven already that she is not.
 

DMG

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1. Peach is... ok... at approaching. She's kinda slow as Reflex points out (inb4 massive sheeet storm about mobility and stuff).

2. She struggles to kill. Fair as a killing options is OK, however to kill decently with it you need to keep it fresh. This limits you in the earlier stages of a fight in using Fair. Her Fair is also fairly slow and not hard to see coming (kinda like G&W's Bair but slower).

3. She has worse ledge options, and she has a harder time landing/reaching the ground safely.

4. Peach still loses to Marth. You even listed it as 6:4 his favor. If I was underrating her capabilities, I would say that she has little chance of beating Marth or that it's like 65:35. The matchup, from Marth's perspective, is fairly easy. He knows what he has to do, what he has to do isn't that hard, he has an easier time doing what he wants compared to Peach, WHALA 6:4 matchup. There's not a lot of depth to Marth vs Peach TBH. It's simply Character A having better tools overall than character B, nothing too complicated like OMG where is Sonic gonna cancel his Spin Dash lol.
 

Dark.Pch

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wheres falco? :)

Sheik vs Meta- 40-60
Sheik vs Snake- 50-50
Sheik Vs Sheik Vs Diddy 50-50
Sheik/Zelda vs DDD- 60-40
Sheik Vs Marth 50-50
Sheik/Zelda vs IC 60-40
Sheik Vs Olimar- 60/40
Sheik Vs G&W- 50-50
Sheik Vs Pikachu- 60-40
Sheik vs Kirby- 50-50
Sheik vs Falco - 50-50 OH WAIT! tilt lock 60-40

I'm crazy though, lol. Most sheiks aren't going to agree with me on a lot of this. but I'm going from how I've been doing in tourney and friendlies against top players in our region. Oli could be 6/4 sheiks favor.
- You basing stuff of friendlies and you adding sheik/zelda.

Sorry, But I rather hear from top level sheik players.

Falco- even
wario- Peach wins


1. Peach is... ok... at approaching. She's kinda slow as Reflex points out (inb4 massive sheeet storm about mobility and stuff).

2. She struggles to kill. Fair as a killing options is OK, however to kill decently with it you need to keep it fresh. This limits you in the earlier stages of a fight in using Fair. Her Fair is also fairly slow and not hard to see coming (kinda like G&W's Bair but slower).

3. She has worse ledge options, and she has a harder time landing/reaching the ground safely.

4. Peach still loses to Marth. You even listed it as 6:4 his favor. If I was underrating her capabilities, I would say that she has little chance of beating Marth or that it's like 65:35. The matchup, from Marth's perspective, is fairly easy. He knows what he has to do, what he has to do isn't that hard, he has an easier time doing what he wants compared to Peach, WHALA 6:4 matchup. There's not a lot of depth to Marth vs Peach TBH. It's simply Character A having better tools overall than character B, nothing too complicated like OMG where is Sonic gonna cancel his Spin Dash lol.
1- Are you seriously trying to troll me saying Peach is ok at approaching? Who in the world have you been playing dude? And I already got on reflex with the speed crap. that will just apply to you as well.

2.- I don't need to rley on Fair to kill since that ius not her only good kill options. If my moves get stale, I have something called turnips. Hei you with a frew, jab you a few times, and omg, Peach moves are fresh, say good bye. It's all common sense. This is what I do when my moves get stale. even if your % is high. To make sure I take your *** out, I am gonna clap you with 7 attack that are not kill options. people till this day still think Fair is my only good kill option?

3- Thats not true, she has many ledge options, really with her secon jump being so short. where have you been dude. Do your homework. Seriously I wanna know, just who have you been playing to say all of this? People who don't even play or know alot about Peach at least know this much.

4- Peach loses to Marth but you are seriously overratting how that match up goes and what she can do in it. Same applies for Peach Vs meta.
 

Shaya

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Eh...

Peach beats Marth in "Neutral position" aerial combat.
But of course Marth's SUCCESS follow ups are a lot more detrimental to Peach than vice versa,
and Marth can do silly things like Jab Peach's float to beat all her spacing relating to it from a grounded position.

Sheik vs Meta- 40-60 <-Reasonable
Sheik vs Snake- 50-50 <- Hahah no
Sheik Vs Sheik Vs Diddy 50-50 <- Struggling to see it
Sheik/Zelda vs DDD- 60-40 <- Haha no
Sheik Vs Marth 50-50 <- Haha no
Sheik/Zelda vs IC 60-40 <- Most ICs I hear don't mind Zelda at all these days :O?
Sheik Vs Olimar- 60/40 <- I thought Olimar was one of sheik's hardest?
Sheik Vs G&W- 50-50 <- Hmm.. maybe
Sheik Vs Pikachu- 60-40 <- what?
Sheik vs Kirby- 50-50 <- Maybe...
Sheik vs Falco - 50-50 OH WAIT! tilt lock 60-40 <- 55:45 at... best... Side B + Lasers + CG > Crouching + tilt lock -most of the time
 

Zankoku

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As a Sheik main, I feel that Peach is more relevant to the current metagame than Sheik. But that's just me.
 

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I am a top level sheik player. I play friendlies with our PRs and our would be honorable mentions so that's coming off legit. But most of what I'm talking about comes directly from my tourney experince. I've beaten a power ranked Diddy/GaW and Marth is the past few months in tourney. I know my stuff without doubt.
 

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@ Shaya

ask the florida PR how they feel about sheik right now. Don't even mention my name just see how they feel about the match ups. It's not like florida is a bad region either so don't even being that.

Sheik snake at best is 45:55 snakes favor. sheik kills him in the air needles all but kill his nade game if used correctly. He ftilts into big damage. between ftilt->usmash and jab-nair you can kill him reasonablly safely. The biggest thing he has in this match up is his weight and his kill power. if you are playing well you should be able to avoid a lot of damage and a lot of his kill attempts just because of how sheik is made.

Diddy is nothing compared to sheik without banana's with them he has a huge advantage. if you can get the banana's away from him you can tilt him into high percents. Diddy is very easy for sheik to get off stage and very easy to edge gaurd. his lack luster air game leave him prey to sheik's much fast aerials.

D3 is way too slow to even be a conciderable threat. like snake he does live long and kill low, but unlike snake he doesn't have good way to get big damage on you quickly, he can't chain sheik or zelda. both zelda and sheik can literally combo him into a lot of it. D3s moveset is just to slow to answer sheik's strings as well as characters like MK and Marth

Marth's moveset is amazing dancing blade is monstrous in the match up. luckily we can just... get this... be gay. needles really own the match up here since marth can stall well in the air and has limited jump you can always deal damage through needles or dash in power sheilded grabs. marth tilts pretty well and can be stringed decently. He has upB which can inturupt a lot of stuff but if it is ever predicted (and since you get a free double hit usmash or a free tipper. a kill or 30 some odd damage.
Marth has a much harder time edge gaurding sheik than other characters I would imagine since she has so much vertical she can literally wait marth out and force him to retun to the stage before going up herself. chain also makes for very quick horizontal and even vertical recoveries to avoid the situation all together unlike most of the cast.
Marth also has trouble actually getting of kill moves in the match up.

I'll just skip ICs because no one wants me to get started with that. (I meant 40-60 though :) )

Olimar is definitely not one of our hardest. he tilts well is easy to edge gaurd. its easy to get pikmin off you needles go through all except purples. I'm not saying he can't build damage on us he definitely can and he can kill pretty well, but we can get him right back with it. He is one of the characters that we can reliably edge guard this high up the teir list as well. falco and diddy being the others.

Pika was also supposed to be 4/6pika's favor. my fault. Pika is easy to tilt lock and combo. we have kill options from grab in this match up regardless of plats too I believe which is huge. all pika has in the match up is the chain grab bly playing zelda you completely eliminate that and force pika to deal damage to you or pretty much die until you get to percents where you are comfortable play sheik again.

Falco's chain goes to what 40ish? lets just say 60 after the down air. sheik takes falco from 30% up to the 90s or even a kill if you know how to stall the tilts and let falco fall further down while he is in hit stun. needles beat over B crouching beats lazer. falco is cake to edge gaurd and with moves like dsmash and fair he has to recover lower than he would in most match ups making has bad recover worse.

wario is prob even.
 

phi1ny3

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Oh yeah, so something's been bothering me. On a lot of these foreign tier lists, Lucario is disadvantaged to Sheik/Zelda combined, when in reality he does well against both of them (I'd say both are disadvantaged against him, actually).

Can anyone explain the logic, especially since getting the aerial pressure on zelda's pretty easy (also we sort of outcamp her), and sheik is just a really annoying MU for her v. Lucario?
 

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I am a top level sheik player. I play friendlies with our PRs and our would be honorable mentions so that's coming off legit. But most of what I'm talking about comes directly from my tourney experince. I've beaten a power ranked Diddy/GaW and Marth is the past few months in tourney. I know my stuff without doubt.
from what you been sayiong lately, I find that hard to believe
 

BRoomer
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honestly... no I can't. not only does his quick crazily disjointed aerials pose a problem but our lack of kill power also lets him kill us eariler and earlier. thanks to dash attack we can punish a lot of stuff that most characters can't, but that doesn't really turn the match in our favor much. I don't know what I'd do against a strong lucario in tourney right now. but honestly my lucario experience is very limited atm too.
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
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Sheik can edgeguard Lucario. Kinda. Still not seeing how it can ever be argued in her favor, though.
 

BRoomer
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from what you been sayiong lately, I find that hard to believe
Fine by me. I think the big thing is I approach matches differently than sheiks you may watch or be familiar with. It's very literally the difference between playing an over the top agressive wario and a campy one that picks and chooses his openings.
right now sheiks are way too aggressive with very poor spacing. very linear in their approaches and don't use needles correctly or nearly enough. the focus instead of flash and technique when sheik, at least in my opinion is about the basics, spacing baiting and punishing. This isn't melee sheik if you play her like that you won't win any of your matches against top level players using other good characters.
 

Praxis

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I put my life on the line right now that I know more about Peach than Praxis. And I'll prove that anytime. You can call me w/e you want from this, but no one knows more about this character in there than I do. I alone destroyed this thread with Peach and even on the Peach boards with this character. I am not trying to start with Praxis ( but I am sure as hell bet people and Praxis himself will think so) But He is not good for rep as Peach. I had a shot of making it to the BRR but because of my attitude and how people see me or assume things about me, it was not gonna happen. I would have been good rep for Peach.
It's a pity that you put so little value on your life.
 
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