The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Commander_Beef]

false, ivysaur and charizard are tied for having the best down b in the game. ivysaur's because it eliminates the worst character in the game and charizard's because it spawns the best character in the game.

Any character is great if you know how to use 'em. All of Pokemon Trainer's down B's are the same.
I think Charizard is the best out of the three though because of his weight class, grab game, rock smash, and up B having some super armor with it being a possible kill move. Better than Squirtle in my opinion.

 

[:mad:]

Any character is great if you know how to use 'em. All of Pokemon Trainer's down B's are the same.
I think Charizard is the best out of the three though because of his weight class, grab game, rock smash, and up B having some super armor with it being a possible kill move. Better than Squirtle in my opinion.

You missed the joke. Any Pokemon that isn't Squirtle is bad. So you keep pressing Down B until you get him.

 

[Suspect]

inb4reflex

PT is too good

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm pretty sure you need a male Wailord and a female Skitty to make an MK. Not sure who you would breed Charizard with to get MK. Is it possible that you can use Charizard to breed Rock Smash as an egg move onto MK?

I bet it's Arceus (I don't care what you say, if Arceus is god pretty much, he can certainly make himself/herself fertile) lol
Brokenness with wings!

 

[metayoshi]

Well I'm late to the party. I didn't know there was a new tier list already out. This has probably been said a billion times, and there's no way I'm reading through 323 pages to check, but how in the world did Sonic go from 31 to 23? I don't see him doing any better than those in the E tier IMO. I must have missed some game-breaking Sonic strategy to be lumped with the likes of Fox, Wolf, Sheik, Peach, and Luigi.

 

[Red Arremer]

Go check his tournament results. If you're done, come again. Until then, shut up.

 

[Suspect]

Go check his tournament results. If you're done, come again. Until then, shut up.

And people like this get into the SBR...shoulda just left it at "go check his tourny results thread"

 

[:mad:]

They were actually asking a legitimate question, Spade.

 

[metayoshi]

Go check his tournament results. If you're done, come again. Until then, shut up.

Jeez. Calm down. All I wanted to know was what made him go in the Mid tier. Sorry for offending you.

In any case, I have just come from the Sonic boards (one step ahead of you, Spadefox) to see what's up, and the tournament results are pretty impressive to see, but I feel that it's a bit biased coming from the Sonic boards. What I do see, though, is that Sonic's rankings do reach the top 5 in some tournaments, which is pretty good. I haven't witnessed one of those tourneys, and it baffles me when the last tournament I went to had a Falco in #1 and a Samus in #2, how Samus is 2 lower tiers than Sonic.

Well, one of the main reasons I was so surprised is that I dropped Sonic as a main a LONG time ago when I learned that ZSS is a character that feels natural to me, and so does Yoshi since I've mained him in all three Smashes. I try to main Sonic, but I never seem to perform well with him. I guess it's just one of those characters I naturally suck with like Lucario, who I tried to use as a secondary character until I learned how crappy I was with him. Oh well. I guess more power to the Sonic mains.

 

[:mad:]

Jeez. Calm down. All I wanted to know was what made him go in the Mid tier. Sorry for offending you.

In any case, I have just come from the Sonic boards (one step ahead of you, Spadefox) to see what's up, and the tournament results are pretty impressive to see, but I feel that it's a bit biased coming from the Sonic boards. What I do see, though, is that Sonic's rankings do reach the top 5 in some tournaments, which is pretty good. I haven't witnessed one of those tourneys, and it baffles me when the last tournament I went to had a Falco in #1 and a Samus in #2, how Samus is 2 lower tiers than Sonic.

Well, one of the main reasons I was so surprised is that I dropped Sonic as a main a LONG time ago when I learned that ZSS is a character that feels natural to me, and so does Yoshi since I've mained him in all three Smashes. I try to main Sonic, but I never seem to perform well with him. I guess it's just one of those characters I naturally suck with like Lucario, who I tried to use as a secondary character until I learned how crappy I was with him. Oh well. I guess more power to the Sonic mains.

It's not exactly biased... because they place in tournaments and report it to a thread. Every character board has one, iirc.

Keep in mind that tiers aren't always going to be true. The Samus player could've either been really, really good, or everyone else just sucked.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

While I understand that results matter, IMO they are hard to quantify because there's no global source for them. I really hope you guys aren't using Ankoku's thread. As cool as it is, it is statistically irrelevant. If you want to know why, ask Falcion as he has explained it a few times better than I could.

If you're using large tournies/regionals and have some kind of internal record of them, that's a little better, but the sample size is a little small in that case.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Go check his tournament results. If you're done, come again. Until then, shut up.

I can't help but go, **** YEAH! to this

And people like this get into the SBR...shoulda just left it at "go check his tourny results thread"

Spadefox is in the SBR because of his knowledge concerning Brawl . Not because he plays nice, and frankly, my reaction would have been the same.

The answers to most of the questions asked is typically available.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

and frankly, my reaction would have been the same.

I don't see why, exactly.

Again, "check the tourney results" is a kind of bogus answer. Which tourney results? The ones reported in the Sonic boards thread that are only reported when Sonic cracks top 10, or the ones reported in Ankoku's thread? Either way, neither of them can really be called statistically relevant.

I've done a lot of thinking on this, and to me, the only tournament results that should even matter are large regional, national, or international ones if results are even to be counted at all. For instance, Pit barely places at all anywhere that matters, but it isn't because Pit is a bad character, it is because there are no really amazing Pit players outside of Japan. The SBR even recognizes this to an extent, because Pit is thought of as being a pretty decent character; 16th or 17th best, in fact.

The best way to create the tier list is to have these guys come out with an official, thought-out match-up chart. Then, add the first number of each character match-up ratio together and add weight based on top and high tier match-ups. For instance, huge **** vs MK matters more than huge **** vs. Peach. If they want to factor tourney results, for instance, with Dedede actually working out despite him not having the same amazing match-up spreads as the other top tiers, that's fine, but they should not be factoring Joe's Smashfest Tourney that included 13 people no one has ever heard of. Large regional tourneys are much easier to track. It is easier to make sure the rules are "SBR approved," it is easier to make sure that a certain calibur of player is attending, and most importantly, there are more people attending, meaning the sample size per tournament increases dramatically. It's pretty easy for an amazing CF player to beat 13 nobodies, for instance.

You could argue whether or not match-up ratios are canon. That is a valid response to my idea, although I think the way we talk about match-ups is mostly fine, assuming both parties are intelligent contributors.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Obviously it would refer to the tournament results that show the characters progress in comparison to others. Considering that it is readily available and has been so for over a year, asking a question such as "why is sonic there?" rather meaningless.

Not only that, but the information concerning Sonic's metagame is readily available and the Sonic board has repeatedly linked to the boards in an effort to promote knowledge concerning the character.

So if he does not understand why that is on him.

Now concerning tournament results. The main reason they have such an influence is because ;least i think so; the tierlist created by the SBR is a metagame influenced tierlist.

If it were based on matchups; which would be better personally; it would be more accurate with less issues.

Atchup ratios are canon because they allow a method of quantifying the matchup.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Obviously it would refer to the tournament results that show the characters progress in comparison to others. Considering that it is readily available and has been so for over a year, asking a question such as "why is sonic there?" rather meaningless.

I think there is a misunderstanding. I'm just saying that the tournament results reported aren't worth talking about because the sample size is very smalll and because tournament rules and standards, and the skill of the players attending can vary pretty significantly.

Now concerning tournament results. The main reason they have such an influence is because ;least i think so; the tierlist created by the SBR is a metagame influenced tierlist.

This is understandable, except we don't have a statistically worthwhile way of tracking match-ups.

If it were based on matchups; which would be better personally; it would be more accurate with less issues.

Atchup ratios are canon because they allow a method of quantifying the matchup.

Agreed. If we had a match-up chart that is accurate and signed off on by the SBR, the tier list would come naturally.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I know it's been said before that positions within C Tier and below don't matter too much (it was Spadefox that said that, I think...), but IMO Jigglypuff should be in E Tier rather than F Tier. Don't get me wrong, she does suck pretty badly, but being lumped with the likes of Captain Falcon and Ganondorf seems a tad unfair. Her bad ground game doesn't matter so much, since she has all the tools she needs to force the game into the air, and from there her high priority, fast aerials can easily rack up damage and edgeguard. She also has a pretty good grab game and Rest (situational, but it's still there). IMO, she should be around the middle of E Tier, and Samus should take her current place.

 

[Darknid]

Jiggz is garb dude..Does she even have any good matchups? Doesn't she lose to Ganon and Falcon?

 

[mountain_tiger]

Jiggz is garb dude..Does she even have any good matchups? Doesn't she lose to Ganon and Falcon?

I'm pretty sure that Ganon vs Jigglypuff is 40:60 Jiggly's favour. As for Falcon, I think it's either even or slight advantage for Jiggly. Yes, her matchups aren't all that great, but they aren't as bad as the likes of Captain Falcon. In fact, she's almost even with Diddy Kong and DDD IIRC (still mildly in their favour, but 45:55 against them is good compared to some of the other low tiers).

 

[Darknid]

I'm pretty sure that Ganon vs Jigglypuff is 40:60 Jiggly's favour. As for Falcon, I think it's either even or slight advantage for Jiggly. Yes, her matchups aren't all that great, but they aren't as bad as the likes of Captain Falcon. In fact, she's almost even with Diddy Kong and DDD IIRC (still mildly in their favour, but 45:55 against them is good compared to some of the other low tiers).

Link is almost even with Snake..Ganon is almost even with Kirby and GnW..

 

[mountain_tiger]

I find it hard to believe that Ganon is almost even with G&W and Kirby. I don't understand how that works. I'll give you the Link one, though.

The thing is, they all have massive weaknesses, but all in all, IMO Jiggly's proprotion of pros to cons slightly outweighs those of the F Tiers, and Samus. Apart from Samus, there's no one else above her that Jiggly is superior to really.

 

[Darknid]

I don't see why you'd make a fuss over the placement of a character who completely sucks anyway. Jiggz has no realistic hope of ever being mid tier like Mario, Ness etc. so why discuss her placement?

 

[mountain_tiger]

I don't see why you'd make a fuss over the placement of a character who completely sucks anyway. Jiggz has no realistic hope of ever being mid tier like Mario, Ness etc. so why discuss her placement?

The exact same reason why people argue whether Lucas or Ness is better, even though both of them are low tier.

 

[TP]

I find it hard to believe that Ganon is almost even with G&W and Kirby. I don't understand how that works.

Ganon is NOT almost even with G&W. We can do some pretty nasty stuff to him, but at the end of the day G&W's aerials shut us down too hard.

Kirby, however, is nearly even. Kirby has the second worst roll in the game, beating only Pikachu. Therefore, one choke is usually good for another 5 if you have good reaction time and have studied all the getup animations (few Ganons have, but it helps a ton), and of course Ftilt is guaranteed after a choke once you are ready. It would be in Ganon's favor if not for Kirby's bair.

I don't see why you'd make a fuss over the placement of a character who completely sucks anyway. Jiggz has no realistic hope of ever being mid tier like Mario, Ness etc. so why discuss her placement?

How about because we don't like being told that none of the hard work we do matters? It hurts to put in hours and hours of research and discussion only to be told "Who cares, your character sucks."

 

[kingcobra9]

I don't see why, exactly.

Again, "check the tourney results" is a kind of bogus answer. Which tourney results? The ones reported in the Sonic boards thread that are only reported when Sonic cracks top 10, or the ones reported in Ankoku's thread? Either way, neither of them can really be called statistically relevant.

I've done a lot of thinking on this, and to me, the only tournament results that should even matter are large regional, national, or international ones if results are even to be counted at all. For instance, Pit barely places at all anywhere that matters, but it isn't because Pit is a bad character, it is because there are no really amazing Pit players outside of Japan. The SBR even recognizes this to an extent, because Pit is thought of as being a pretty decent character; 16th or 17th best, in fact.

The best way to create the tier list is to have these guys come out with an official, thought-out match-up chart. Then, add the first number of each character match-up ratio together and add weight based on top and high tier match-ups. For instance, huge **** vs MK matters more than huge **** vs. Peach. If they want to factor tourney results, for instance, with Dedede actually working out despite him not having the same amazing match-up spreads as the other top tiers, that's fine, but they should not be factoring Joe's Smashfest Tourney that included 13 people no one has ever heard of. Large regional tourneys are much easier to track. It is easier to make sure the rules are "SBR approved," it is easier to make sure that a certain calibur of player is attending, and most importantly, there are more people attending, meaning the sample size per tournament increases dramatically. It's pretty easy for an amazing CF player to beat 13 nobodies, for instance.

You could argue whether or not match-up ratios are canon. That is a valid response to my idea, although I think the way we talk about match-ups is mostly fine, assuming both parties are intelligent contributors.

someone did that here and marth came out with being the best based on matchups with everyone and being weighted since he only has a couple bad matchups and quite a few absolute **** matches

 

[Darknid]

someone did that here and marth came out with being the best based on matchups with everyone and being weighted since he only has a couple bad matchups and quite a few absolute **** matches

that list was flawed because it used extremely old matchup ratios from the boards

 

[kingcobra9]

But that would be the idea you guys are going for...so it is an oldteir list and we just need to make a new one

 

[Commander_Beef]

Link is 100:0 to everyone while on Norfair!!!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If it were weighted properly, Marth would not be the best because a bad match-up with MK could carry quite a bit of weight.

 

[Darknid]

If it were weighted properly, Marth would not be the best because a bad match-up with MK could carry quite a bit of weight.

Right now in terms of matchups I'd say 1. MK 2. Wario 3. Snake 4. Diddy 5. Marth

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The most shuffling would happen to high and high-mid tiers. Top is probably close to correct.

 

[Vermy]

@Darknid:

Wario has a lot of 50-50 and 55-45 matchups. He gets shut down (60-40) by only a few (who aren't MK and Snake), and in turn shuts down a few.

While Snake has a couple bad match ups, he ***** a lot more. I honestly think that both Wario and Snake are on equal footing there, so sharing 2nd and 3rd makes sense to me. Apart from that, based entirely on match ups i agree with that order.

 

[TP]

He gets shut down (60-40)

Lolwut.

 

[Vermy]

lol, ok maybe that was an over statement.

rewind, is disadvantaged

geez, make one slight exaggeration and your heads on a plate 'round here.

 

[JayBee]

Jeez. Calm down. All I wanted to know was what made him go in the Mid tier. Sorry for offending you.

In any case, I have just come from the Sonic boards (one step ahead of you, Spadefox) to see what's up, and the tournament results are pretty impressive to see, but I feel that it's a bit biased coming from the Sonic boards. What I do see, though, is that Sonic's rankings do reach the top 5 in some tournaments, which is pretty good. I haven't witnessed one of those tourneys, and it baffles me when the last tournament I went to had a Falco in #1 and a Samus in #2, how Samus is 2 lower tiers than Sonic.

Well, one of the main reasons I was so surprised is that I dropped Sonic as a main a LONG time ago when I learned that ZSS is a character that feels natural to me, and so does Yoshi since I've mained him in all three Smashes. I try to main Sonic, but I never seem to perform well with him. I guess it's just one of those characters I naturally suck with like Lucario, who I tried to use as a secondary character until I learned how crappy I was with him. Oh well. I guess more power to the Sonic mains.

sonic took a long time to get mid tier because he one of the biggest learning curves in the game, which makes sence when you consisder that many people would drop him early last year. if you think about it, sonic wasn't really taking off until late last year, and it was still pretty bad. back then.

its gonna suck for the people who gave up on him but want to pick him up again now that he's mid tier, because that learning curve is still there. the only advantage they might have is that they have a more developed metagame to study from.

And from what I'm hearing from Shadofiend, and about the West coast sonics, there is still a lot more because all the styles vary greatly from each person over there, meaning he has more flexibility than we thought. still.

 

[mountain_tiger]

sonic took a long time to get mid tier because he one of the biggest learning curves in the game, which makes sence when you consisder that many people would drop him early last year. if you think about it, sonic wasn't really taking off until late last year, and it was still pretty bad. back then.

its gonna suck for the people who gave up on him but want to pick him up again now that he's mid tier, because that learning curve is still there. the only advantage they might have is that they have a more developed metagame to study from.

And from what I'm hearing from Shadofiend, and about the West coast sonics, there is still a lot more because all the styles vary greatly from each person over there, meaning he has more flexibility than we thought. still.

This guy's summarised it perfectly. Sonic isn't the only example too. Check out how much Olimar has risen: he was 18th on the first tier list because his potential hadn't been reached yet, but he's been rising since them because people know how deadly he can be. ZSS is a similar story. Likewise, characters whose maximum potential was reached early did well on the first tier list, but have dropped since then (examples include Game and Watch and Wolf) because their metagames have stopped growing so much.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I think there is a misunderstanding. I'm just saying that the tournament results reported aren't worth talking about because the sample size is very smalll and because tournament rules and standards, and the skill of the players attending can vary pretty significantly.

Ah then by all means I agree.
Its not as if you have a significant amount of professionals per character playing qith a tournament.

This is understandable, except we don't have a statistically worthwhile way of tracking match-ups.

Originally Dangr and Ivan attempted to make a matchup chart to keep track of all the matchup ratios thus far. It failed miserably since not enough data was provided or there were often cases where the ratios were varied.

Agreed. If we had a match-up chart that is accurate and signed off on by the SBR, the tier list would come naturally.

I think the main issue is that people tend to move away from matchups feeling that the ratios would be too subjective. Personally, from what I have observed, many communities make a tierlist based upon matchups and it works out quite well.

And if there are any qualms, I am quite sure the making of a metagame tierlist can also be done.

The SF3 community did it, I see no reason why the smash community should not.

 

[Red Arremer]

lol, ok maybe that was an over statement.

rewind, is disadvantaged

geez, make one slight exaggeration and your heads on a plate 'round here.

"Shut down" means that the disadvantaged position has no chance to do anything. "Shut down" usually means 70:30 and worse.

Oh, and about SFP's idea. While it would be great on paper, even well-established matches like Meta Knight vs. Snake are a high controversy in terms of matchups for even the top players. Let alone matches or characters that aren't common.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

many communities make a tierlist based upon matchups and it works out quite well.

The problem with making tier lists based on matchups is that they may not represent a tier position a character deserves. For example, Zangief in Street Fighter 4 beats like half the cast, but the other half he doesn't beat happens to be higher tier guys that you'll be seeing in tournaments.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Making a tier list based solely on matchups, although fair in principle, doesn't really work in practice. To see what I mean, take a look at the match-up list and see how much both sides of a matchup disagree. For example, with Zelda vs Fox, some people say it's 40:60 Fox's favour, while others say it's the same in Zelda's favour! It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to get both sides to agree on all of the matchups. Matchups should definitely make up part of the tier list, but tournament results, though not flawless, help set a foundation for the list, because in geenral characters with better matchups do better in tournaments.

 

[PKNintendo]

No disrespect to the sonic mains, but what pushed Sonic to C tier?

A new technique, playstyle change, tourney results?