The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[momochuu]

THAT AINT MELEE

fox has unwinnables, doesn't he? idk why people think he belongs up there

Shiek and Pikachuuuuuu~

EDIT FOR STEELSECONDBASE: Sheik*. My bad.

 

[Steel]

You did NOT just spell it ShIEk.

My eyes are playing tricks on me... they must be.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You said Luigi had better high tier matchups. You clearly don't know anything about DK.

Perhap he nows more about Luigi than you.

As for Wario, it's not that bad, maybe 40-60 without the CG. Most Warios don't even use it.

Wow did I just hear this?
It does not matter if most Wario's do or do not use it.
The behavior of the player is not bought into matchups period.You obviously need to review what goes into matchup discussion if you are saying things like this.

Oh, and DK can grab release to 9 wind which kills at about 50-60%

Wario won't get grabbed.

Also, watch Bum vs Snakeee. ZSS vs DK is a clear ZSS advantage if DK plays his regular game..But if you play like Bum(that is, shieldgrab approach a lot and abuse the grab game, and work hard just to deal a bit of damage like he does) it leans closer to even. It's just a matchup that most DKs haven't learned.

We assume high level play and assume that the character will use all the tools in order to achieve as best possible a ratio as possible
S do cease the nonsense about different playstyles since that is already factored into the matchup discussion.

Aaanyways DK isn't viable, while I'm pretty sure ZSS is, so why don't you guys discuss ZSS?

We wanted to discuss the Ape who ***** Crocs.

 

[Darknid]

Perhap he nows more about Luigi than you.

I get my info from Luigi mains discussing the matchups, he clearly doesn't get his from DK mains.

Wow did I just hear this?
It does not matter if most Wario's do or do not use it.
The behavior of the player is not bought into matchups period.You obviously need to review what goes into matchup discussion if you are saying things like this.

I said at top levels of play it will be used, but you just ignored that didn't you?

Wario won't get grabbed.

We assume high level play and assume that the character will use all the tools in order to achieve as best possible a ratio as possible
S do cease the nonsense about different playstyles since that is already factored into the matchup discussion.

The Wario - D3 matchup is problematic because D3 has a good chance of grabbing Wario. Well, guess what, DK's grab has the exact same speed and range, and his shield is actually bigger and more durable than D3's. One difference is that DK is twice as fast..meaning it's harder to retreat from him. Anyways, this discussion is pointless because Wario has a 0-death on DK. Anyways, I already said exactly what you just said in the very post you are replying to.

Oh, and playstyles directly affect matchups. If you abuse DK's grab game, ZSS is closer to even. Also watch claw vs cbk.

We wanted to discuss the Ape who ***** Crocs.

well stop it. few people know about him because he is an extremely unpopular character due to infinite troubles

 

[Umby]

Lol. "Stop discussing an unpopular/'unviable' character" because doing so might actually make it easier to accurately order the lower portions of the tier list.

 

[Darknid]

Lol. "Stop discussing an unpopular/'unviable' character" because doing so might actually make it easier to accurately order the lower portions of the tier list.

DK is wayyyyy too good as a base character to even go near the lower portions of the list, hell he'd easily be S tier without the infinites that **** him over.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I get my info from Luigi mains discussing the matchups, he clearly doesn't get his from DK mains.

Can you provide proof?

I said at top levels of play it will be used, but you just ignored that didn't you?

oh no I didn't, I am attacking the fact that you brought up low level play earlier.
If the character can do it, it goes in, none of this stupidity abot
6-4 if they dont CG us to death.
7-3 if they do.

Its stupid.

The Wario - D3 matchup is problematic because D3 has a good chance of grabbing Wario. Well, guess what, DK's grab has the exact same speed and range, and his shield is actually bigger and more durable than D3's. One difference is that DK is twice as fast..meaning it's harder to retreat from him. Anyways, this discussion is pointless because Wario has a 0-death on DK. Anyways, I already said exactly what you just said in the very post you are replying to.

*facepalm*

DDD has the largest grab of all non tethers.
DDD;s grab is also, iirc, faster than DK's grab.

DK's shield as actually inferior to DDD's.
While it is bigger, DK's size makes that unimportant since it is easier to shieldpoke the Ape due to his size.
ALL SHIELDS HAV THE SAME DURABILITY

Another difference is that DDD has a projectile and can force the opponent close.

Also, Wario is faster than DDD in the air, so I cannot see as to why you are saying its harder to retreat.

DDD is more difficult cause his grab range is larger than DK's plus he has the means of forcing an approach. Dk needs to get into range, he can't toss something at Wario to force him close, plus he lacks the speed Wario has.

You need to learn more.

Oh, and playstyles directly affect matchups. If you abuse DK's grab game, ZSS is closer to even. Also watch claw vs cbk.

*facepalm*
Someone doesn't read.

The individual playstyle of a player does NOT matter because ALL playstyles are incorporated. So the character matchu will be one in which the most optimal playstyle will be used.

So again, stop the business with this 6-4 if he plays regularly, even if he plays the match properly because such a statement is STUPID.

other stuff

umm, lemme think, ummm, no.

Edit for your last post: Any character can be S tier if they didnt have their debilitating weakness. GG.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

My god, Darknid, you're such a delusional fool. If you loose to at least 3 S-Tier characters and have not one advantage (I don't give a **** about what DK players say - Snake beats DK, unless you can prove me wrong with hard facts) against any of them, you're never going to be S-Tier, with or without the infinte.

 

[phi1ny3]

He beats Snake 55-45 and is even with Falco. Wario has a 0-120 CG on him and he loses 45-55 to Diddy. His only legit bad matchups in high tier are Wario, MK and D3. Olimar is arguable(if you saw the actual discussion it was a bit of a joke) The rest are even or DK advantage and he beats Marth, Lucario and GnW 60-40 which is pretty good, but there's no use discussing his tier placement because he has an unwinnable, perhaps the worst in the game and that means he isn't viable unless infinites are banned.

Don't state things as if they are fact when you aren't sure. Luigi gets ***** by MK, Marth, Gnw, D3 and loses to Wario, DK, Zamus(iirc, not sure), and I'm sure there are others but not sure about the other particular matchups. Get your facts straight.

LOLWUT, ur dreaming on the marth and lucario matchups, and I'm sure on the G&W as well.
so much for things that are "fact". Wait until we discuss both sides lol. I bet DK is underestimated, but DK still has some flaws beyond infinites.
I agree he should move up, but this is madness.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Bum beats his ZSS because Bum is an intimidating mutant, not because DK is a good match-up vs ZSS.

DK messes with her spacing tools pretty well because of his grabs, this is true. But she still outspaces him and utterly wrecks him in the air. Plus, once off stage, you aren't coming back. Link status.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually he does have an advantag eon Marth. Very slight though.

 

[phi1ny3]

Actually he does have an advantag eon Marth. Very slight though.

Oh certainly, but 60:40 is a bit extreme.

 

[Darknid]

Can you provide proof?

Ask anyone lol. proof that Luigi gets ***** by Marth, GnW, D3 and MK? Common knowledge, brudda.

oh no I didn't, I am attacking the fact that you brought up low level play earlier.
If the character can do it, it goes in, none of this stupidity abot
6-4 if they dont CG us to death.
7-3 if they do.

Its stupid.

I've already said this.

*facepalm*

DDD has the largest grab of all non tethers.
DDD;s grab is also, iirc, faster than DK's grab

Er..No, he doesn't. Charizard does. DK and D3 are tied for second. Where are you getting this?

DK's shield as actually inferior to DDD's.
While it is bigger, DK's size makes that unimportant since it is easier to shieldpoke the Ape due to his size.
ALL SHIELDS HAV THE SAME DURABILITY

Who are you playing that doesn't know how to angle their shield?

Another difference is that DDD has a projectile and can force the opponent close.

That's funny since Wario's best way to beat D3 is by camping.

Also, Wario is faster than DDD in the air, so I cannot see as to why you are saying its harder to retreat.

I said it's harder to retreat because DK is faster than D3. It's harder to retreat against DK than D3.

DDD is more difficult cause his grab range is larger than DK's plus he has the means of forcing an approach. Dk needs to get into range, he can't toss something at Wario to force him close, plus he lacks the speed Wario has.

You need to learn more.

You don't understand basic **** about the characters you're talking about and yet you brazenly declare that I need to learn more? You're an idiot, dude.

So again, stop the business with this 6-4 if he plays regularly, even if he plays the match properly because such a statement is STUPID.

Most DKs play regularly vs all chars, this is why people think that is a bad matchup.

Edit for your last post: Any character can be S tier if they didnt have their debilitating weakness. GG.

This is demonstrably wrong. Anyways, DK's debilitating weakness actually warrants a ban, which is why I said he could easily be S tier without it.

 

[Darknid]

My god, Darknid, you're such a delusional fool. If you loose to at least 3 S-Tier characters and have not one advantage (I don't give a **** about what DK players say - Snake beats DK, unless you can prove me wrong with hard facts) against any of them, you're never going to be S-Tier, with or without the infinte.

Lose to at least 3 S tier characters and have not one advantage against any of them..hmm..KING DEDEDE RING A ****ING BELL? LOL he even has 4 near **** matchups in high tier. You can't say that about DK or any other S tier.

Also, DK vs Snake, people know the matchup already. Even though the DK can't play his usual game and must select his moves very carefully, it's still an even matchup. Difficulty does not necessarily indicate a disadvantage.

At least I have personal experience when it comes to DK.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Lose to at least 3 S tier characters and have not one advantage against any of them..hmm..KING DEDEDE RING A ****ING BELL? LOL he even has 4 near **** matchups in high tier. You can't say that about DK or any other S tier.

This is true. Where is the equality in the tier list standard? It's like Dedede is being given a free ride because he wrecked for the first eight months.

That's not to say he doesn't do well now, but there has obviously been falloff.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ask anyone lol. proof that Luigi gets ***** by Marth, GnW, D3 and MK? Common knowledge, brudda.

Of course but what about the others?
Hence which is what i believe gheb was referring to.

I've already said this.

So you attacked you're own behavior?

Er..No, he doesn't. Charizard does. DK and D3 are tied for second. Where are you getting this?

*facepalm*
WRONG!
Thy updated it.
DDD beats out Charizard by half a block.

Donkey Kong does NOT have the same grab range as DDD. These are the facts.
'Get up to speed because living in the past is a no no.

Who are you playing that doesn't know how to angle their shield?

You have just killed your earlier statement then, since if angling ones shield was the solution to everything, then certainly your argument has been nulled.
Though of course much of it was inaccurate, something you seem unwilling to admit.

That's funny since Wario's best way to beat D3 is by camping.

Though he still has issues for good reason.
Falco's best method of beating Marth is camping, doesn't change what i said earlier though.

I said it's harder to retreat because DK is faster than D3. It's harder to retreat against DK than D3.

I like your incapability for reading. I responded to this point. Are you only capable of repeating yourself like a broken record in hopes that it somehow, proves your statement?

This isn't AIB.

You don't understand basic **** about the characters you're talking about and yet you brazenly declare that I need to learn more? You're an idiot, dude.

I laughed, then I realized you weren't joking and I merely shook my head from side to side.

Most DKs play regularly vs all chars, this is why people think that is a bad matchup.

We don't CARE about MOST DK's.
We care about what the character can do and what he cannot do.
What part of this do you not understand?

This is demonstrably wrong. Anyways, DK's debilitating weakness actually warrants a ban, which is why I said he could easily be S tier without it.

Really?
K then I'll give you an example.
Marth.
If Marth didnt have his bad matchups he would be S tier. Since it would mean he had no bad matchups.
Just like MK.

I also like how you say it can be demonstrated as wrong and yet you fail to fulfill the demonstration.


@supermodel: I so called the issue about DDD.

 

[Darknid]

Bum beats his ZSS because Bum is an intimidating mutant, not because DK is a good match-up vs ZSS.

DK messes with her spacing tools pretty well because of his grabs, this is true. But she still outspaces him and utterly wrecks him in the air. Plus, once off stage, you aren't coming back. Link status.

and Snakeee isn't a freak himself? Come on now, dude.

Anyways, DK generally tries to stay withing range of his attacks which means being within range of ZSS' side B. DK's advantage here is that he can interrupt it, meaning he can space her effectively on the ground. Most ZSS players will SH the side B to allow for more precise spacing, but this leaves them open to the shieldgrab approach and when DK grabs you, you're in for some pain.

Not coming back? Not sure where you're getting that. How can Zamus stop you from coming back? She has one spike and it's nearly impossible to land vs DK's up B, and the rest of her attacks simply allow DK to jump back over the stage after one hit. Oh, and DK's bair > zss in the air

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No, DK's Bair doesn't beat ANY ZSS aerial. Does his bair have a disjoint? Then it doesn't win.

No aerial truly beats ZSS' uair. I've said it before, her uair is overpowered. It is gay. It is the tornado of aerial attacks.

Plus, her aerials/dsmash go straight through his up+b. DK is one of our easiest gimps.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Lose to at least 3 S tier characters and have not one advantage against any of them..hmm..KING DEDEDE RING A ****ING BELL? LOL he even has 4 near **** matchups in high tier. You can't say that about DK or any other S tier.

I never said that D3 I'm OK with D3 being in S-Tier.

Stop dodging my points. It only shows that you have nothing to argue against my points.

Edit: wtf? 4 **** match-up's? He goes even with Diddy and Wario and loses slightly to Snake. He loses to Falco and MK but none of them are **** match-up's (well ... vs Falco it possibly is) ... that's a pretty huge exaggeration and only shows how biased you truly are. But when I talk of DKs match-ups you call my judgments uneducated?

What a hypocrite.

@SL84

Charizard has a longer grabrange than D3 does (if I read your post right...)

 

[ShadowLink84]

No, DK's Bair doesn't beat ANY ZSS aerial. Does his bair have a disjoint? Then it doesn't win.

Nothing truly beats ZSS' uair. I've said it before, her uair is overpowered. It is gay. It is the tornado of aerial attacks.

Plus, her aerials/dsmash go straight through his up+b. DK is one of our easiest gimps.

This is making me want to use ZSS.
her Dsmash is just too fun.
I believe DK's Bair is slightly disjointed, not much though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This is making me want to use ZSS.
her Dsmash is just too fun.
I believe DK's Bair is slightly disjointed, not much though.

I just asked around and her bair beats his if you space justttt right.

Also, if we powershield your bair we get a free bair of our own.

Also ZSS needs moar mains, so no complaining here.

 

[Darknid]

Of course but what about the others?
Hence which is what i believe gheb was referring to.

4 **** matchups vs the top tiers pretty much does you in, dude. He does well against Diddy and Oli but I'm not sure about the rest except DK which is even/DK advantage.

So you attacked you're own behavior?

It's not my behavior, *******, I mentioned it in the same message that you're referring to.

*facepalm*
WRONG!
Thy updated it.
DDD beats out Charizard by half a block.

Donkey Kong does NOT have the same grab range as DDD. These are the facts.

Enough with the facepalm BS, you're almost as bad as myself on mIRC circa 2001

Alright, maybe I was wrong, but any difference is barely noticeable in an actual brawl, and this little argument is irrelevant anyway based on your own statements about non-infinite play. Why are you still discussing it?

You have just killed your earlier statement then, since if angling ones shield was the solution to everything, then certainly your argument has been nulled.
Though of course much of it was inaccurate, something you seem unwilling to admit.

You make no sense here. A bigger shield is better even on a bigger character model because you can angle your shield.

Though he still has issues for good reason.
Falco's best method of beating Marth is camping, doesn't change what i said earlier though.

uh..Nobody was ever talking about Marth's amazing camping ability. You're talking about D3 forcing Wario to approach when Wario will be the one camping D3..

I like your incapability for reading. I responded to this point. Are you only capable of repeating yourself like a broken record in hopes that it somehow, proves your statement?

This isn't AIB.

You didn't respond to this point, you misunderstood it and I clarified. ****ing pay attention and stop turning this into a flame war.

I laughed, then I realized you weren't joking and I merely shook my head from side to side.

More internet troll politics. lol.

We don't CARE about MOST DK's.
We care about what the character can do and what he cannot do.
What part of this do you not understand?

I understand all of it. The people who think it's a bad matchup for DK are the people who haven't seen it done right.

Really?
K then I'll give you an example.
Marth.
If Marth didnt have his bad matchups he would be S tier. Since it would mean he had no bad matchups.
Just like MK.

I also like how you say it can be demonstrated as wrong and yet you fail to fulfill the demonstration.

Yeah and if I had wheels I'd be a ****ing wagon. Seriously. It's not like Marth's bad matchups are due to abuses of the game physics like infinites which you can legitimately ban.

As for the last part, I'm not responsible for babying you.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'd also like to verify Shadowlink that like the infinite, MK (marth's real achilles heel) is debatable for ban (although not gonna happen, even though I'm antiban).
Edit: lol am I seeing what I think I'm seeing? Darknid is quoting and arguing against himself *wonders if I'm delusional*.

 

[Darknid]

I never said that D3 I'm OK with D3 being in S-Tier.

Stop dodging my points. It only shows that you have nothing to argue against my points.

Edit: wtf? 4 **** match-up's? He goes even with Diddy and Wario and loses slightly to Snake. He loses to Falco and MK but none of them are **** match-up's (well ... vs Falco it possibly is) ... that's a pretty huge exaggeration and only shows how biased you truly are. But when I talk of DKs match-ups you call my judgments uneducated?

What a hypocrite.

@SL84

Charizard has a longer grabrange than D3 does (if I read your post right...)

What points would that be?

Anyways, you misunderstood me. I said he has 4 NEAR **** matchups in HIGH tier, not S tier. Olimar, Pikachu, Falco and Ice Climbers are all nearly **** matchups though it seems that some of them are believed to be 40-60s nowadaiz like Pikachu and Falco.

 

[Darknid]

I'd also like to verify Shadowlink that like the infinite, MK (marth's real achilles heel) is debatable for ban (although not gonna happen, even though I'm antiban).
Edit: lol am I seeing what I think I'm seeing? Darknid is quoting and arguing against himself *wonders if I'm delusional*.

No, he messed up a quote and got all wonky when I quoted him. He actually said that, not me.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Nothing personal, but you really should try to just edit your last post instead of replying to everything in its' own post.

 

[Darknid]

Nothing personal, but you really should try to just edit your last post instead of replying to everything in its' own post.

I find it much easier to read if you separate your posts when you are addressing multiple people. It's not like I'm whoring for posts or anything.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I find it much easier to read if you separate your posts when you are addressing multiple people. It's not like I'm whoring for posts or anything.

No, I'm not accusing you of that, it's just that I find it the opposite... easier to read when everything is in one place.

 

[ShadowLink84]

It's not my behavior, *******, I mentioned it in the same message that you're referring to.

So, you didn't just say
6-4 without CG
greater than that with the CG?

I can get it.

Enough with the facepalm BS, you're almost as bad as myself on mIRC circa 2001

I am sorry what? Don't compare me to yourself please.

Alright, maybe I was wrong, but any difference is barely noticeable in an actual brawl, and this little argument is irrelevant anyway based on your own statements about non-infinite play. Why are you still discussing it?

WOw am I really hearing this?

It does NOT matter.
if it can be done, its factored into the matchup. So the non infinite play BS, doesn't matter.

You make no sense here. A bigger shield is better even on a bigger character model because you can angle your shield.

NO.
A bigger shield is better ONLY if the shield to character model ratio makes the shield the greater.

DDD's shield is an incredible example.
Bowser's is another.
DK's is a poor shield because the shield size to character model ratio is skewed to the character model.

Simply put, DK is too big for the shield that was given to him, so he is more easily shieldpoked than other characters. Angling only does so much.

uh..Nobody was ever talking about Marth's amazing camping ability. You're talking about D3 forcing Wario to approach when Wario will be the one camping D3

This is why I sometimes hate SWF.
People are CLEARLY incapable of understanding the CONCEPT behind the EXAMPLE.
Reading comprehension is good.

You didn't respond to this point, you misunderstood it and I clarified. ****ing pay attention and stop turning this into a flame war.

...
...

Someone talk to him for me. Clearly I must be speaking in Freudian terms.

More internet troll politics. lol.

XD, when faced with the truth you call it trolling.

I understand all of it. The people who think it's a bad matchup for DK are the people who haven't seen it done right.

We don't care about the people who haven't done it right. We care about the capabilities of the character pure and simple. If they cannot understand that simple notion, why bother?

I am attacking the fact that your statements concerning matchup discussion are inane.

Yeah and if I had wheels I'd be a ****ing wagon.

If the shoe fits.

Seriously. It's not like Marth's bad matchups are due to abuses of the game physics like infinites which you can legitimately ban

WHO CARES!? A BAD MATCHUP IS A BAD MATCHUP. The end is what matter snot the means.

And you CANNOT legitimately ban infinites.
TO's that ban the infinite are allowing a major contradiction because there is NO criteria that is worthy for banning ANY of the infinites anyway!

As for the last part, I'm not responsible for babying you.

Translation: I am completely incapable of legitimately defending my point and shall now pretend as if I did by attempting to attack your credibility without any justification at all.

GG.

@SL84

Charizard has a longer grabrange than D3 does (if I read your post right...)

No they updated it recently gheb. They made a topic concerning the grab ranges and it as found that DDD's grab range is bigger than Charizards by roughly half a block. Its tactical i think in page 2?


@phi1ny3: Where is the error? I'll fix it.

 

[phi1ny3]

It's not there any longer, Darknid's quotes originally showed his username instead of yours lol, but it got fixed.

 

[Snakeee]

and Snakeee isn't a freak himself? Come on now, dude.

Anyways, DK generally tries to stay withing range of his attacks which means being within range of ZSS' side B. DK's advantage here is that he can interrupt it, meaning he can space her effectively on the ground. Most ZSS players will SH the side B to allow for more precise spacing, but this leaves them open to the shieldgrab approach and when DK grabs you, you're in for some pain.

Not coming back? Not sure where you're getting that. How can Zamus stop you from coming back? She has one spike and it's nearly impossible to land vs DK's up B, and the rest of her attacks simply allow DK to jump back over the stage after one hit. Oh, and DK's bair > zss in the air

LMAO. Why are you calling me a freak? Hey, maybe I am even, but where did that even come from that is sooo random?

DK's B-air is annoying and ZSS can only beat it if she goes under him. However, If I'm able to powershield it then he his going to eat her B-air (or up air) instead. That match up I'd say is 6/4 ZSS or 55/45 at best.

 

[Suspect]

Im sure he meant freak as in slang for really good. Unless you knew that and you are just saying you're not that good for some reason..

 

[kingcobra9]

nvnvnvnvnvni changed my mind...wrong thread

 

[adumbrodeus]

I almost forgot that the SBR bases tier position on matchups, and not tournament results.

DK's tournament results are very good, and he has to beat S Tier characters to remain at his current spot. Not including Dedede, of course.

That's because our tournament results aren't statistically valid to track actual character performance, something I'm trying to correct.

I'm glad to hear that. It'd be incredibly annoying if you could do that.

And I just checked the Wario vs DK matchup, and apparently it's pretty bad for DK... still, he does pretty well against top tiers other than him and D3, and of the high tiers, most of them other than Olimar aren't too bad.

Try Ike's downsmash. PS to FALCON PUNCH!

Yeah and if I had wheels I'd be a ****ing wagon. Seriously. It's not like Marth's bad matchups are due to abuses of the game physics like infinites which you can legitimately ban.

Look, if you wanna talk about hypothetical tier lists where the rulesets are completely different from the ones we're using, then be my guest. Just preface everything with "hypothetically with these rule changes".

There's nothing wrong with abusing game physics, period. It only becomes a problem when overcentraliation occurs. 1 bad match-up =/= overcentalization (no, the "you can break out until like 138" match-ups don't count, at the top of the metagame, it doesn't effect the match-up. Neither does the small-step chaingrab, it's not an infinite).

As for the last part, I'm not responsible for babying you.

Wow, it's called discussing a topic. If you don't provide evidence to support your point, then nobody is gonna agree with you, ever.

Showing that your opinion isn't complete BS is not babying.

lrn2debate.

 

[PhantomX]

You said Luigi had better high tier matchups. You clearly don't know anything about DK.

As for Wario, it's not that bad, maybe 40-60 without the CG. Most Warios don't even use it. The top ones will, though, since winning is winning. Oh, and DK can grab release to 9 wind which kills at about 50-60%

Also, watch Bum vs Snakeee. ZSS vs DK is a clear ZSS advantage if DK plays his regular game..But if you play like Bum(that is, shieldgrab approach a lot and abuse the grab game, and work hard just to deal a bit of damage like he does) it leans closer to even. It's just a matchup that most DKs haven't learned.

Aaanyways DK isn't viable, while I'm pretty sure ZSS is, so why don't you guys discuss ZSS?

9 wind doesn't hit, it's too slow... it will hit if we have no DJ though. Full punch always hits, doesn't kill til later but does nasty damage.

Also, we have no guaranteed followups once DK hits 120... he's just at lethal... from like... every move.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Wario's down B is the best in the game. mmhmm

 

[Steeler]

Wario's down B is the best in the game. mmhmm

false, ivysaur and charizard are tied for having the best down b in the game. ivysaur's because it eliminates the worst character in the game and charizard's because it spawns the best character in the game.

 

[ShadowLink84]

false, ivysaur and charizard are tied for having the best down b in the game. ivysaur's because it eliminates the worst character in the game and charizard's because it spawns the best character in the game.

Charizard spawns MK?
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Pressing DownB as Ivysaur erases Ganondorf from your brawl disc

 

[Umby]

Charizard spawns MK?
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

I'm pretty sure you need a male Wailord and a female Skitty to make an MK. Not sure who you would breed Charizard with to get MK. Is it possible that you can use Charizard to breed Rock Smash as an egg move onto MK?