The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Boxob.]

You can gimp Ness by being above him. Good luck trying to do that though.

That's pretty easy to do with a lot of characters. knock ness off without his double jump and simply stay above him, he isn't getting back.

 

[Suspect]

This is reminding me of the flud invasion the mario users did on the ness boards a while back

 

[Matador]

Mario mains rawk so hard

 

[Cacti]

Oh, no it's starting again...

Quick! All Ness mains, into the bunker!

 

[GwJ]

I remember that. Let's do it again but with a figurative texture hack to make it look like legit discussion so we don't get infracted.

 

[Brinzy]

That's pretty easy to do with a lot of characters. knock ness off without his double jump and simply stay above him, he isn't getting back.

Sounds like the same way you gimp... oh iunno, at least half of the cast. Well, maybe not half when you can opt to force an on-stage recovery and kill someone. Then it's more like 3/4ths the cast.

 

[PKNintendo]

Mario mains rawk so hard

Achtung baby!!!

 

[AvariceX]

Heh.

I haven't really forgotten. But really, I guess I just gave up. I really wasn't the greatest poster
so I just split. Curiosity got the better of me though.

Anything new happen to the Ness metagame?

I dunno what these are people are saying with "nothing new" but there was actually an explosion of new Ness stuff not too long ago. Ness boards found an interesting (if hard to initiate) jab lock setup that combos MK (and other characters but MK is one of the easiest) 0-90 and leads to a guaranteed tipper fsmash. It was (re)discovered and confirmed that our dtilt has a sweetspot that always trips rather than the previously believed random chance to trip....yeah, we have a move that hits on frame 2 and leads into a guaranteed fsmash.

...and then of course there was FOW.

Ironically this is the time when I choose to give up on maining Ness and move on to greener fields.

PS: Recovery is not and never has been an issue with smart Ness players.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The only really bad thing about Ness is the grab-release nonsense. It is his only big problem, but it is a big one. His recovery is not that bad. Many of his bad match-ups involve him getting wrecked by grab-release silliness and chaingrabs. He has a lot of solid qualities and it doesn't hurt that his match-up with MK is at least decent. I don't describe to the "ZOMG EVEN" newsletter just yet, but it is obvious Ness can hold his own vs MK.

 

[Red Arremer]

I never said Ness' matchup against Meta Knight is "ZOMG EVEN", I said that he's probably underrated in this matchup, or rather, that he was thought to do very bad, while he may do not as bad as thought.

So, I was merely saying that this is a possibility.

Just to clear that one up.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I never said Ness' matchup against Meta Knight is "ZOMG EVEN", I said that he's probably underrated in this matchup, or rather, that he was thought to do very bad, while he may do not as bad as thought.

So, I was merely saying that this is a possibility.

Just to clear that one up.

Oh. I didn't even read your post. It wasn't directed at you, don't worry.

There's just been a lot of ZOMG NESS MK EVEN stuff floating around. I do think the match-up is very close on paper, though.

Edit: not to use this as an example of top-end ness vs MK, but this is a fun video to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_Wf-GUlPKU

 

[adumbrodeus]

Marths fsmash should be better imo. It should either be stronger or have more range...

What it NEEDS is not to be -40 on tipper and -32 on regular block, it's got way too much shield disadvantage.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic has a 18 frame Fsmash with -37 frames on block.
Marth doesn't need a **** thing *nods at this*

 

[adumbrodeus]

Sonic has a 18 frame Fsmash with -37 frames on block.
Marth doesn't need a **** thing *nods at this*

Wow, Sonic's f-smash sux even worse then I thought it did.


Seriously, that thing is awful. Granted, sonic's f-smash can kill when non-tippered.


Doesn't mean Marth's f-smash doesn't suck though.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Wow, Sonic's f-smash sux even worse then I thought it did.

Yeah, its terrible.
Slow to start, slow to end.

Seriously, that thing is awful. Granted, sonic's f-smash can kill when non-tippered.

If you tilt it up, good DI kills the opponent earlier XD. Thats it though

Doesn't mean Marth's f-smash doesn't suck though.

Pfft, not when compared to my Fsmash.
GET AT MY FSMASH
*punches someone's shield then poses*

 

[mountain_tiger]

Sonic has a 18 frame Fsmash with -37 frames on block.
Marth doesn't need a **** thing *nods at this*

*thinks* If what you say is true, doesn't that mean that Ike has enough time to FSmash after blocking it? Because if so, that sucks so much....

BTW, who else thinks that Donkey Kong should be higher? I mean, yes, his matchup with D3 does bring him down a fair bit, but that's been known for ages, and in older tier lists where it was known he was noticeably higher. Apart from beign infinited by Dedede, he has tons of range and kill power, is the second best survivor in the game, and is pretty fast for a heavy. Why would he have gone down?

 

[:mad:]

*thinks* If what you say is true, doesn't that mean that Ike has enough time to FSmash after blocking it? Because if so, that sucks so much....

BTW, who else thinks that Donkey Kong should be higher? I mean, yes, his matchup with D3 does bring him down a fair bit, but that's been known for ages, and in older tier lists where it was known he was noticeably higher. Apart from beign infinited by Dedede, he has tons of range and kill power, is the second best survivor in the game, and is pretty fast for a heavy. Why would he have gone down?

The characters above him are either better, he has mediocre tournament results (he doesn't), little representation, or there's something I'm missing.

Probably the latter.

 

[Zankoku]

*thinks* If what you say is true, doesn't that mean that Ike has enough time to FSmash after blocking it? Because if so, that sucks so much....

Nah, Ike's fsmash may hit as early as frame 29, but you forget that it doesn't reach in front of him immediately. Frame 29 hit is only just above him.

 

[da K.I.D.]

with his quick bair and headbutt he has the best survivability in the game, iirc.

hes a really good character tho, he could go up a spot or two

 

[:mad:]

He went down 4 spots every tier list so far.

He's probably better than his current spot.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How can DK rise on the tier list, when he loses to every single S-Tier character?

 

[:mad:]

How can DK rise on the tier list, when he loses to every single S-Tier character?

I almost forgot that the SBR bases tier position on matchups, and not tournament results.

DK's tournament results are very good, and he has to beat S Tier characters to remain at his current spot. Not including Dedede, of course.

 

[mountain_tiger]

How can DK rise on the tier list, when he loses to every single S-Tier character?

He doesn't lose to them all, though.

MK: 45-55(which for a matchup against MK isn't too bad)
Snake: 50-50
Wario: Not sure...
Falco: 40-60
Diddy Kong: 50-50 IIRC
King Dedede: LOL (we all know this....)

There are some bad match-ups there sure, but he does even or near even with around half of them, which isn't too bad, I'd say. As long as you counterpick when playing against King Dedede or Olimar, DK is capable of winning tournaments.

 

[ShadowLink84]

*thinks* If what you say is true, doesn't that mean that Ike has enough time to FSmash after blocking it? Because if so, that sucks so much....

frame 29 is just behind his head for Ike. So he can't. It hits in front of him waaaaay too late.
However, another Sonic user can drop his shield and Fsmash as a counter. Funny **** huh.

 

[da K.I.D.]

dk does really well against snake, diddy and marth, and he doesnt lose to mk any worse than any other character in his tier.

i think he does alright vs wario, correct me if im wrong but i think he has some way to gay wario the same way wario gays him

point is... his matchups with the top tier warrent him moving up a spot or two

 

[mountain_tiger]

frame 29 is just behind his head for Ike. So he can't. It hits in front of him waaaaay too late.
However, another Sonic user can drop his shield and Fsmash as a counter. Funny **** huh.

I'm glad to hear that. It'd be incredibly annoying if you could do that.

And I just checked the Wario vs DK matchup, and apparently it's pretty bad for DK... still, he does pretty well against top tiers other than him and D3, and of the high tiers, most of them other than Olimar aren't too bad.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

dk does really well against snake, diddy and marth, and he doesnt lose to mk any worse than any other character in his tier.

i think he does alright vs wario, correct me if im wrong but i think he has some way to gay wario the same way wario gays him

point is... his matchups with the top tier warrent him moving up a spot or two

He loses 4/6 against MK
He loses at least 45/55 against Snake
He loses 4/6 against Falco
Wario has like a 0 death CG against him.
Gets ***** by D3
Even at best vs Diddy

Luigi does better against the top tiers than DK does ...

 

[Suspect]

Except that fact that mk ***** luigi and marth makes him his biotch.

other than that you are right.

 

[OverHyped]

Dk went from being 10th since the first list came out to 18th as of now. I think he's pretty much right where he belongs.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm finding it hard to imagine a world where DK is even with Diddy. Heh.

 

[Darknid]

He loses 4/6 against MK
He loses at least 45/55 against Snake
He loses 4/6 against Falco
Wario has like a 0 death CG against him.
Gets ***** by D3
Even at best vs Diddy

Luigi does better against the top tiers than DK does ...

He beats Snake 55-45 and is even with Falco. Wario has a 0-120 CG on him and he loses 45-55 to Diddy. His only legit bad matchups in high tier are Wario, MK and D3. Olimar is arguable(if you saw the actual discussion it was a bit of a joke) The rest are even or DK advantage and he beats Marth, Lucario and GnW 60-40 which is pretty good, but there's no use discussing his tier placement because he has an unwinnable, perhaps the worst in the game and that means he isn't viable unless infinites are banned.

Don't state things as if they are fact when you aren't sure. Luigi gets ***** by MK, Marth, Gnw, D3 and loses to Wario, DK, Zamus(iirc, not sure), and I'm sure there are others but not sure about the other particular matchups. Get your facts straight.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I wonder where he would be if DK didn't have arms. He'd still have Dash Attack, D-air, B-air (all he needs <_<).

This is me just running my mind. I am a loser for posting this :'(

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Darknid, aren't you glad I'm here?!

ZSS beats DK at least 6:4 and loses to Luigi slightly.

I wonder where he would be if DK didn't have arms. He'd still have Dash Attack, D-air, B-air (all he needs <_<).

This is me just running my mind. I am a loser for posting this :'(

+1

 

[Nefarious B]

I'd put DK as a solid 60-40 for ZSS, no higher than that though because he can compete with our spacing and kills stupidly easily, and takes longer for use to kill. We have CGs, locks, and juggles on him to compensate.

And yeah Wario ***** DK pretty bad, the only "gay" thing he has on Wario is grab release to Usmash which kills at percents Wario is not used to dying at. To be honest I would say it's easily his worst matchup, unless DDD's infinite is legal.

Edit: I just thought of this. If Wario's 0-120 CG (finishing with a waft) is allowed on DK, why isn't the infinite? They're both zero to deaths, both standing.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You're delusional if you think that DK beats Snake.

 

[The Golden Ike]

I'm utterly shocked Fox isn't in ATLEAST A tier...

 

[Darknid]

You're delusional if you think that DK beats Snake.

You said Luigi had better high tier matchups. You clearly don't know anything about DK.

As for Wario, it's not that bad, maybe 40-60 without the CG. Most Warios don't even use it. The top ones will, though, since winning is winning. Oh, and DK can grab release to 9 wind which kills at about 50-60%

Also, watch Bum vs Snakeee. ZSS vs DK is a clear ZSS advantage if DK plays his regular game..But if you play like Bum(that is, shieldgrab approach a lot and abuse the grab game, and work hard just to deal a bit of damage like he does) it leans closer to even. It's just a matchup that most DKs haven't learned.

Aaanyways DK isn't viable, while I'm pretty sure ZSS is, so why don't you guys discuss ZSS?

 

[momochuu]

I'm utterly shocked Fox isn't in ATLEAST A tier...

Uhh...this isn't Melee.

 

[j0s3ph]

I'm utterly shocked Fox isn't in ATLEAST A tier...

Fox is where he belongs right now from what I've seen...although he does have some potential to move up, he loses to most of the characters above him

 

[Darknid]

Uhh...this isn't Melee.

THAT AINT MELEE

fox has unwinnables, doesn't he? idk why people think he belongs up there