The Deadly 4

lil cj · Dec 22, 2008

I think ToxiCrow was planning on making a thread like this, describing Lucas' four worst match ups more in depth...he probably doesnt remember...lol....so I decided to make one

Ok...lets get this started....We all know Lucas worst match ups are G&W, DK, Marth and Meta Knight. They can completely shut Lucas down if played correctly....so what is the Lucas player to do against The Deadly 4?....

...We will find out by discussing each bad match up
I will make this as oragnized as possible.
Below is a list of the Deadly 4, some info about them(from the match up discussion thread), and video(s) of the match up
I will update each character's information as we discuss the pros/cons/etc.
Also, lets try to get the mains of the Deadly 4 to join our discussion

1.

20-80

Blackbelt said:
Mr. Game & Watch is the best reason for a Lucas mainer to have a secondary. I mean, even with marth you can just counterpick Norfair or Brinstar and be able to take advantage of the geography, but you can't do that with GW. He completely shuts down your projectile game, he outdoes your aerial game, and he beats out your ground game. And he can DThrow to DSmash you with no chance of you escaping. And his recovery is **** near ungimpable (Seriously, I've gimped more Meraknights that I have Mr. Game & Watches) Seriously, good friggin luck.

25-75

Blackbelt said:
DK is a powerhouse. He can kill you at uncomfortably low percents, he has really good range on all of his attack, he doesn't get KOed until uncomfortable high percents, his recovery is alot harder to gimp than it looks like it would be, and he has an unescapable Cargo grab release to DSmash. You have to be on the offensive, because at long range, DK can just avoid your projectiles, and at mid range, DK can FTilt you to heck. No, CQC style combat is needed here, and your jab combo and Nair are your moves of choice, for their speed and their damage building qualities. I would honestly attempt to keep your kill moves fresh, due to DKs immense weight. As for Gimping, PK Thunder doesn't work, since DK's horizontal recovery is so powerul, and Bairing him is diffcult do to range issues. Surprisingly though, PK Freeze is suggested, due to the straight forward nature of DK recovery. All in all, I'd rather fight Marth.

Pros:

Cons:

Strategies:

Videos:

What a good DK looks like- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fep5iWhCbTQ

What to do- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9CQN-vwLjQ

What not to do- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G1gowezJ-g

More vids on this match up-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMLww5yEhY0 (NinjaLink's Lucas had some trouble in this match but still won...Impressive DK!!!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hTOJZwbzIs (Lucas got 3 stocked in this match

)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py7pUHNj26w (Great KO in the end by ZMan!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD7SSLe4V_A (Close match...and another win for Lucas)

Learning Your Enemy[DK Combo Videos]
Natural Selection- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVImpxyZfIE
Beware the Beast- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0hp00xKK8g&feature=related
Rumble in the Jungle- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPiJfPrzonY&feature=related
Leader of the Bunch- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdRc26TYjgI&feature=related
Make it Clap- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0c0WXuiaHQ&feature=related

3.

30-70

Blackbelt said:
Yeah, this matchup sucks. Marth has an answer to everything you got. He outranges and outpowers you at close range, and he can easily get through your long range game. But even so, your long range game still makes an effective brink wall for Marth to geth through. You'll want to play a giant game of keep away, because Marth will pwn you up close. Also remember that your jab combo and your FTilt are your best close range options, and that your smash attacks should only be used as punishments for missed smash attacks. Once Marth gets off the stage, you should immediately go for the gimp via PK Thunder. I mean, marth's recovery sucks, and you should be abusing the hell out of it. Unfortuntely, marth aerial game is powerful enough to go for the gimp against you as well. Seriously, good luck.

Pros:

Cons:

Strategies:

Videos:

What a good Marth looks like- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JmklgxOfNM

What to do- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTT1lsYtb64

What not to do- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAxt0ka6XVU

More vids on this match up-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ePn7AfDAY (Lucas got owned in this match

)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upBCzYBV-iA (Marth got 3 stocked

)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJZHm_KSd9M (Death grab in action)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o74IBXOazSM (A win for Marth...he got lucky)

Learning Your Enemy[Marth Combo Videos]
Determination- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9cVTkP4_KQ
Shining Burst- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNWGCP47Jag&feature=related
Discipline- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Cbi_U0fUMw
Swift Breaker- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRWJ6CeX2ZM&feature=related
Dancing Blade- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arhRRNiRaEE&feature=related

4.

35-65

Blackbelt said:
Metaknight is the best character in the game. There's very little doubt about that. He has so many approach options that it's ridiculous. And all of his moves have no lag at all. And he is **** near ungimpable. However, you still have options available to you to combat Metaknight. The important thing is that you have projectiles, something Metaknight lacks.Also, your PK Fire will cancel out his Mach Tornado, so you should be using that liberally in this matchup. Your FSmash is also your best friend here, as it's your fastest KO move in your arsenal. Luckily, you can KO Metaknight at very early percentages, due to his lack of weight. However, if you don't Star KO him, he will make it back. Even so, PK Thunder is an excellent option, if only for racking up damage and removing diminishing returns from your other moves. In the air, your Nair is your best option, due to how fast it is, and how big the hitbox is. Grabbing out of shield is very difficult, due to the slow nature of Lucas' grab, but your jab combo out of shield is very reliable, and is actually just as fast as Metaknight's moves (Hit box starts on frame 2, making it the third fastest jab combo is the game) The secret to this matchup is to make sure you never give Metaknight the chance to start juggling you. Do that, and you'll live.

prOAPC · Dec 22, 2008

thanks for posting 3 videos of me

, but the one vs G&W and the one vs Marth, when i played those fights, they weren't really good, right now they are good, but i don't have recent vids, i just uploaded those videos to show some sweet moves i used

. I recommend you to look for another Lucas vs G&W fight, and replace the Marth fight with a fight vs K1000o's Marth ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTT1lsYtb64 )
the fight vs Rest's MK, is mk, but i think Bubbleman has some pretty good fights vs a MK in a tournmant. Later this week, there should be online some matches vs Snes' MK from the tournament i went last saturday.
Really helpful thread, i'll try to help with the Marth match up, i'll post some tips later.

Dxt XXII · Dec 22, 2008

Arn't these four supposed to be taken care of by our secondaries? I mean, Lucas has nothing on them.

Edit: Srry, I was in a bad mood when I posted this

ZMan · Dec 22, 2008

I've had experience with all four characters. Here's what I think

GW:
Pros: Strong, High Priority, can absorb our projectiles, hard to gimp recovery, air juggling, free dsmash/oil panic after dthrow (assuming you don't tech), and mobile.

Cons: Light, can get predictible if not played smart.

Stratigies: SPACE, it's your best hope in this matchup. I like using Ftilts, Utilts, Fairs, and bairs against him. Remember he's light (like 2nd behind jiggly IIRC) so a fresh Fsmash might kill him around 90%-ish. If he gets predictible with Dair just usmash his ***. Try to use Zap jump and magnet pul for recover, bucket gimp is no bueno.

DK:
Pros: Strong, huge range, nasty-*** T. Hawk grabs, free Dsmash out of cargo release, heavy, super armor, light on his feet, has 3 meteor smashes.

Cons: Linear recovery, gets combo'd hard, gets zoned hard

Stratigies: DK is big, so when you get in try to start a combo off of a dthrow/jab/ftilt. PK Fire is really good here, try to use it a lot. He's heavy, so keep your kill moves fresh. Use a Dair or a dsmash above a platform to heckle him. Just try to pick you openings and you will win.

Videos: Me vs. GoldenGlove at the NVGA supercon back in May. I beat his DK 2-0.

I'll post MK and Marth later when I'm not tired. Sorry if anything doesn't make sense, I just woke up (johns am I rite?)

lil cj · Dec 22, 2008

prOAPC said:
thanks for posting 3 videos of me , but the one vs G&W and the one vs Marth, when i played those fights, they weren't really good, right now they are good, but i don't have recent vids, i just uploaded those videos to show some sweet moves i used . I recommend you to look for another Lucas vs G&W fight, and replace the Marth fight with a fight vs K1000o's Marth ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTT1lsYtb64 )
the fight vs Rest's MK, is mk, but i think Bubbleman has some pretty good fights vs a MK in a tournmant. Later this week, there should be online some matches vs Snes' MK from the tournament i went last saturday.
Really helpful thread, i'll try to help with the Marth match up, i'll post some tips later.

Thanks APC
I changed the vids

Dxt XXII said:
Arn't these four supposed to be taken care of by our secondaries? I mean, Lucas has nothing on them.

Yes...thats true...but it would be beneficial to find ways for Lucas to beat these unstoppable match ups

ZMan said:
I've had experience with all four characters. Here's what I think

GW:
Pros: Strong, High Priority, can absorb our projectiles, hard to gimp recovery, air juggling, free dsmash/oil panic after dthrow (assuming you don't tech), and mobile.

Cons: Light, can get predictible if not played smart.

Stratigies: SPACE, it's your best hope in this matchup. I like using Ftilts, Utilts, Fairs, and bairs against him. Remember he's light (like 2nd behind jiggly IIRC) so a fresh Fsmash might kill him around 90%-ish. If he gets predictible with Dair just usmash his ***. Try to use Zap jump and magnet pul for recover, bucket gimp is no bueno.

DK:
Pros: Strong, huge range, nasty-*** T. Hawk grabs, free Dsmash out of cargo release, heavy, super armor, light on his feet, has 3 meteor smashes.

Cons: Linear recovery, gets combo'd hard, gets zoned hard

Stratigies: DK is big, so when you get in try to start a combo off of a dthrow/jab/ftilt. PK Fire is really good here, try to use it a lot. He's heavy, so keep your kill moves fresh. Use a Dair or a dsmash above a platform to heckle him. Just try to pick you openings and you will win.

Videos: Me vs. GoldenGlove at the NVGA supercon back in May. I beat his DK 2-0.

I'll post MK and Marth later when I'm not tired. Sorry if anything doesn't make sense, I just woke up (johns am I rite?)

Thanks for the info

Edit: Just added some more vids for the match ups
Check them out...and lets start discussing

Irsic · Dec 22, 2008

Can you place a space inbetween the hyphen and the links so we can just click them? In the 'Learning your Enemy' section.

I may imput later.

xoxokev · Dec 22, 2008

Helpful thread good job!

Bubbleman_Nsider · Dec 22, 2008

Lil Cj:
The Marth, G&W and DK videos for "More vids on this match up-" section aren't working.

Great guide, btw.

Chuee · Dec 22, 2008

very helpful topic. Anyways here what i think
G&W: once upon a time a fought a kicka** G&W (on wi-fi). It was a crews match so stock was 4. We both had all stocks and he fu**ing 3 stocked me ._. Well i dont remember much except that he completely stopped me from doing any nair combos by using his nair right after mine was finished. Well id say going against G&W you have to have your shield ready all the time. If your defense is horrible game over you get ***** badly. Every time G&W grabs you hes most likely going to use dgrab so get ready to tech. Plus you cant forget G&W's dgrab+jab+dgrab combos.

DK: Not really any experience wit good DK's so nothing much to say. When your recovering dont let DK near you. He has two spikes plus his Bair can be walled.

Marth:I use marth as a secondary so i know a little about him. First off if you aproach him shield or you'll be Faired like sh**. If your at 1-4% damage and he grabs you expect a fgrab into fsmash(it tips

).

MK:This is a tough matchup. Mk has no projectiles which is one of his weaknesses. Use pk fire too space and also against his tornado.

thats all i can say about these matchups since i've no experience against most of them (none offline

)

Irsic · Dec 22, 2008

Bubbleman_Nsider said:
Lil Cj:
The Marth, G&W and DK videos for "More vids on this match up-" section aren't working.

Great guide, btw.

It's because there isn't a space between the link and his end comments on the videos, adding his comments to the URLs.

lil cj · Dec 23, 2008

Thanks everyone for the support
Sorry about the mistakes everybody...lol
I fixed everything...all the vids/links are working just fine now

Ok...I have experience against MK, Marth and DK
but not G&W...but I know wat he is capable of against Lucas

I play this very good MK player all the time on wifi and I manage to get him to his last stock but I always seem to lose...he is great edge guarding and punishing my mistakes.
But now I see that down smash and pk fire works good against him...and using more recovery options.

Marth...Ive had mixed reviews against him.I sumtimes do good against Marth's if they are not good at spacing. But if they are good at spacing it takes a little bit more work to win.
I like using PKT while Marth is doing his up B....he goes real high in the air. His counters/shielding get annoying too while your trying to KO him, so try a combo that leads into a smash. Nair works good against him, but dont try to dair too much...b/c Marth's uair will get out prioritize it everytime.

As for DK...its about even. Utilt get very annoying at times and even though his smashes are kinda slow...Side smash and down smash always seem to get me.I remember facing a DK in a free for all online...the other two players were just standing there watching while my Lucas and DK brawled...we did like 20 two-minute matches...I would win some matches then the DK would win....but I managed to win most of the matches...lol....it was fun...I love this match up.

ZMan · Dec 23, 2008

vs Marth keep him under pressure, keep control of the match, pick your openings, and don't get grabbed. I usally try predicting his moves and react accordingly. This is a matchup that gets easier with experience.

vs MK wait for him to get banned in your area lol. Space a lot and use PKT to gimp his ***. He's light so keep your fsmash fresh. DON'T SPOT DODGE. That's a free dsmash/whorenado if you do. Stay light on your feet and get in and out as quickly as you can. Remember, MK is like Magneto, Chun-LI, and Jin Kazuma rolled up into one, so he's BROKEN.

:mad: · Dec 23, 2008

This was very helpful, guys.
Great job!

Tyr_03 · Dec 23, 2008

Against Marth, prepare to get your *** kicked if he has a clue what he's doing.

Your best bet is to space really well with PK Fire as much as possible and stay out of his Fair range until he makes a mistake for you to punish with grabs, Nairs, Ftilt, Fair etc. Dair is not going to make it past his fairs so it won't work as an approach. Save it for punishment once you've got him into Fsmash kill percentage. Getting him to attack your shield with dancing blades can often be a good thing. Once he's commited into his fourth hit you can roll behind him and get a free Fsmash or grab if you want. If he hits you with dancing blades, DI away the entire time to escape it and punish with full hop Dair, or if you guess he's going to do the downward dancing blades final hit, DI toward him to end up behind him and punish with a Fsmash. Avoid getting grabbed at all costs. It's hard to avoid against Marth though because he punishes spotdodges by mixing in dancing blades with his grabs, but again if you follow the above advice you can avoid getting hurt too bad by dancing blades and even punish it. Marth can stop almost all your combos at low percentages. This includes jab combo, Nair combos and Dair combos by using his Up B. So you really need to rack up some damage first for these to be effective. Most often this seems to happen with PK Fire, Ftilts and grabs but it'll depend on the situation obviously. The biggest advantage that you have is that Marth is pretty easy to gimp for the most part. If he's recovering low and far from the stage, go for a well spaced Bair and then follow with a Fair or Dair if you miss. You can get stage spikes a lot with Fair this way if you miss the original Bair. If he's recovering slightly above and far away, use PKT1 or PK Fire to edgeguard and then edgehog to gimp him. If you ever see Marth waste his double jump, edgehog and stall with the tether so that you can keep invincibility and force him onto the stage with Up B lag for a free Dsmash or grab. When he grabs you, he's going to try to grab release chaingrab you across the stage. You are screwed. The best thing you can do is keep DIing away, forcing him to dash grab you until you're at a tipper Dsmash kill percentage. When you predict he's going to use his Dsmash, DI toward him instead of away so that you don't get hit by the tipper. With proper DI afterward you'll live to higher percentage than he expects. You just have to predict correctly or else you're just giving him more grabs against you.

Marth's game will revolve around safely racking up damage until you're at a kill percentage for his grab release. That's basically all he has to do. So avoid those spaced Fairs and play an EXTREMELY defensive game. Don't go aggresive. You will get *****. Your game is predict and punish. Being aggresive will get you dolphin slashed and/or Faired in the face. This is a really ****ty matchup.

Against Game and Watch, spam PK Fires until he figures out he can bucket them. Let him have one, or purposely miss and then resort to other safe methods of approaching like spacing full hop Dairs. Randomly throw in a PK Fire or two to throw him offguard. You'll get a few in if you mix it up. Once you've racked him up to a good percentage, start spamming PK Fire again and let him bucket another. When he buckets it, run in and dash grab or if you're close enough, running Usmash. The bucket has stupid lag and you just got yourself an easy kill since he's so lightweight. A lot of people fall for this because they don't think about how stupidly laggy the bucket is. You can do the same trick edeguarding with PK Fire and following up with a Fair if they're stupid. Learn to tech the Dthrow. I usually tech toward the opponent because they tend to guess you'll tech away from my experience. Game and Watch has amazing spacing but dies really early. If you can pick a stage with close sides and top you'll do well assuming you can avoid his Usmash. Corneria and Brinstar are really nice. Game and Watch players love Corneria too though so assume they know what they're doing there. Brinstar is handy because of long lasting Dsmashes and Usmashes. Plus Game and Watch players can kill themselves if they Dair through the center of the stage where it breaks apart. You can bait this and it's hilarious. Shield a Dair and you get a free shieldgrab everytime also.

If you know how to use Snake, I'd suggest using him instead against Game and Watch. It's a much easier matchup and Snake really isn't all that hard to learn.

prOAPC · Dec 23, 2008

Tyr_03 said:
Against Game and Watch, spam PK Fires until he figures out he can bucket them. Let him have one, or purposely miss and then resort to other safe methods of approaching like spacing full hop Dairs. Randomly throw in a PK Fire or two to throw him offguard. You'll get a few in if you mix it up. Once you've racked him up to a good percentage, start spamming PK Fire again and let him bucket another. When he buckets it, run in and dash grab or if you're close enough, running Usmash. The bucket has stupid lag and you just got yourself an easy kill since he's so lightweight. A lot of people fall for this because they don't think about how stupidly laggy the bucket is.

the problem with this strategy is that G&W keeps the projectiles he absorbed, even if he dies, so, if he bucket 2 pk fires in one stock, the next stock you'll be scared of using pk fire
G&W is light, but he has the bucket breaking, a broken tech that stops all knockback momentum no matter the % is. My secondary is G&W, and i'm getting used to that tech, the few times i've done it succesfully, was awesome

as for the Marth grab release, DI away and try to jab combo, it will stop him if they miss the timing of the chain grab. Also, when he grabs you, start to button smash, Marth pummel is to weak, and if you are doing it right, you'll get only like 2% per grab. Mix the smash button, sometimes release slower than normal, then faster, that helps to confuse the Marth player and miss the timing

Tyr_03 · Dec 23, 2008

Skilled Marth players won't miss the timing. ever. It's not that hard.

prOAPC · Dec 23, 2008

skilled marth players don't depend on grab release, they won't practice it that hard if it only works against a few characters

Levitas · Dec 23, 2008

Bucket w/ game and watch and be used strategically to your advantage. Since G&W can get you really bad with other things, time he's bucketing is time you're not getting kicked around.

G&W bucketing one pk fire per stock is fine. For the last stock, attempt to get them to higher percents before fire spamming, though. Be close enough that if they bucket, you WILL get a solid hit to get them offstage with.

For that matter, the sexiest thing you can do against a game and watch is do a full hopped PK fire, watch them absorb it for the full bucket, and do the reverse momentum magnet pull to get them in their bucket lag. Magnet even KO's at decent percents against G&W, though I'm not sure if they can bucket brake on a full bucket.

If they can't, it's officially amazing. (and somewhat not useful, and extremely situational, but still awesome)

prOAPC · Dec 23, 2008

G&W can't bucket brake on a full bucket

Tyr_03 · Dec 23, 2008

It takes about ten minutes to be able to do grab releases with Marth against Lucas and Ness. It doesn't really require practice. Most people know about it. Only scrubs aren't going to be able to do it. They don't rely on it, but they'll use it to get a free easy kill on you even if they aren't capable enough to do multiple grabs on you.

Levitas · Dec 23, 2008

I use it as marth against wario, and there's no way I wouldn't use it against the psi kids.

Chuee · Dec 23, 2008

Another thing to watch out for against mk is his Uair's. He can use them to get you at the top and whorenado you. Thats why you use DI.

Levitas · Dec 23, 2008

Yeah, DI can save you a lot of damage there, but if the MK is quick on the uptake, they'll still be able to get a shuttle loop off and hit you with it.

Tyr_03 · Dec 23, 2008

Lucas can ALWAYS stop shuttle loop with Dair. As long as you predict it, you'll never get hit by it. Most MK players are very predictable with it.

lil cj · Dec 23, 2008

I jus played a DK and a Marth today...and I lost to both of them

I fought DK on Lylat Cruise(I hate that stage) and I was winning at first but DK came back and won.
He got me a few times with headbutt and a charged forward smash...and embarassingly he spiked me on the last stock...I should have zap jumped!!!

The battle against Marth...was devastating...I tried to be too aggressive and paid for it.
Those fairs are a brick wall that Lucas cant penetrate...I tried to dair/nair...nothin worked.
And when I tried to recover...it was so hard to get back to the stage b/c Marth was constantly edge guarding with fairs and uairs.

Im goin to beat that DK and Marth next time!!!!

Levitas · Dec 23, 2008

Marth can't brickwall us only with fair. But it is really hard to get through if they do it right, even harder if they mixup with up b shennanigans.

lil cj · Dec 23, 2008

Those were the hardest matches Ive ever had
Im so glad were learning ways on how to beat The Deadly 4

prOAPC · Dec 23, 2008

i have yet to fight one of this deadly 4 that totally **** my Lucas, i now that theorically they are Lucas worst match ups, but as for me, Snake is the hardest

Exia 00 · Dec 23, 2008

I never knew DK was a problem. No one uses him lol

ToxiCrow · Dec 23, 2008

lil cj said:
I think ToxiCrow was planning on making a thread like this, describing Lucas' four worst match ups more in depth...he probably doesnt remember...lol....so I decided to make one

LOL i totally 4got.

1)G+W: For the love of God, please dont use PK Fire as much!
his nair > our nair. watch out for it.
YOU-MUST-TECH-THE-DOWNTHROW. it is techable, and not impossible. get the timing down and tech the downthrow b4 he downsmashes/tilt/w.e you.
chances are he is going to bucket ur PKT. zap jump near the edge if it's possible. also, use z-air when you're near the edge.
F-tilt. use it.
and i cant believe i'm saying this, but try to upsmash him WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT.

2)Meat knight: Whorenado isn't as bad as it sounds. no, it's not. u hav a bunch of moves that knock him out of it.
-PKF - space with this too please
-PKT - tail whip him with this, and when he uses his glide attack, try to PKT again and hit him with the tip of it (i.e the ball)
-Nair, dair, pivot grab all knock him out of it.
however, thats not ur only problem because he is uber-fast.
Camp him. be patient. stay focused and believe in yourself because once u get discouraged you're done.
i believe your dair knocks him out of his Up-B, so try to spike him with dair.

Marth and DK i'll talk about another day. all i'm going to say is space with PKF and try not to get grabbed(yeah i no it's harder than it sounds)
DK is a big target, to nair him please.
thats all for today.
Thanks CJ for making this thread

Irsic · Dec 24, 2008

I haven't played a Marth player who I haven't done a kill on the with the grab release -> dtilt -> fsmash kill yet. I tend to just do every once in a while, as then they won't be expecting it.

Yes I know, doesn't work all the time, etc. It's just still a viable tactic.

ZMan · Dec 24, 2008

Marth- Stay near center of the stage. It might sound like a bad idea but on the edges he can pressure you too good off stage with his aireals. As least in the center you can pressure with ftilts and jabs and stuff. Like I said before keep on your toes, it's not gonna be a smooth ride here.

MK- Don't grab him unless it's gonna win you the match. use filts for spacing when he's up close. The best stratigy here is too wait for him to be banned in your area, lulz. I'll have some vids of my Lucas v mk in a minute.

Sinz · Dec 24, 2008

prOAPC said:
skilled marth players don't depend on grab release, they won't practice it that hard if it only works against a few characters

You don't even need to practice it to have the timing. Its holding l and mashing a. :/

Your best chance vs MK is to counterpick Norfair.
Otherwise, you don't have too much of a chance.

PKNintendo · Dec 24, 2008

The worst Marth can do to Lucas is a grab release dsmash right? I mean, with EIDI it eliminates the CG he had on him too.

(Even without EIDI, it was originally a chaingrab with good DI, and poor damage with the super grab break)

Doesn't Lucas have grab release downtilt>*trip*>Fsmash on Marth?

???

Tyr_03 · Dec 24, 2008

^^^
EIDI does nothing with Lucas. Marth still has a grab release chaingrab using buffered dash grabs. DI will put you right in tipper range for his Dsmash.

And no, the grab release Dtilt to trip to Fsmash only works as a risky mix up. Marth can shield, roll, spotdodge or Up B before your Dtilt will hit (3 frames.) Also, the tipper is not a guaranteed trip so it won't necesarily even knock him over. So it only works if you can guess how your opponent is going to react.

@Sinz: I don't know what you're talking about. MK ***** on Norfair. Ledgecamping to the extreme.

prOAPC · Dec 24, 2008

Sinz said:
You don't even need to practice it to have the timing. Its holding l and mashing a. :/

that's vs Ness, with Lucas, Marth has to move a little

ZMan · Dec 24, 2008

Sinz wtf are you doing. BTW I have our matches from yesterday recorded on and on Youtube. And here they are!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuISaMAK4QI&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7NrjJ7l0xU&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8v5N7aWz1g&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd4El4c4wAI&feature=channel

None of these are Wifi.

prOAPC · Dec 24, 2008

in the Pictochat match, you played the right way you have to play vs MK, good use of pk fire, ftilt and jabs, also, staying in the ground

you gave me an idea, i'll post later some of my fights vs Marth and MK, where i owned them, i got owned and really close matches

Sinz · Dec 24, 2008

Tyr_03 said:
@Sinz: I don't know what you're talking about. MK ***** on Norfair. Ledgecamping to the extreme.

I don't ledgecamp enough then

Sad face

prOAPC · Dec 24, 2008

vs Marth
0-death combo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDV0UMG-fRM
29% with pkt2 helped me a lot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTT1lsYtb64
close match http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pguUbumDmMM

vs Metaknight
one of my first times playing vs MK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98GE7Som1HE
triple nair ftw! :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D8a5m9koaM
close match, i used ftilt instead of fsmash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEuR0IZB9ic

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