[Super Smash Land] - Final Build 1.1 Online

[DeeNinjaa]

...Okay, how do you unlock that unlockable stage? I give up. :D

Edit: I wanted to cry when I saw myself in the credits :'D

 

[WaffleBlaster]

Wow, pretty interesting. I would suggest, if it is possible, to make a version playable on GB emulators, so I can play this on my Ipod. This is a really neat concept and it seems to be coming along pretty well

 

[DeeNinjaa]

Wow, pretty interesting. I would suggest, if it is possible, to make a version playable on GB emulators, so I can play this on my Ipod. This is a really neat concept and it seems to be coming along pretty well

This game is already close to exceeding GB limits. In fact, I think it has from the smash's KB-based system.

 

[BigLord]

I WANT TO PLAY IT NOW BUT I CAN'T BECAUSE I HAVE TO GO TO BED! ARRRGH!

I'll download it now, play it later. Wait for my opinion on it, dudes! :D

 

[4nace]

Hey would you guys mind doing me a favor and up-voting this reddit post?
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/fq0kw/my_friend_made_a_smash_bros_gameboy_demake_for_pc/

also
@Fly
I'm very happy that you found your way here. Try out the new demo and let me know what you think. Other than a couple of my friends who play in our labs at school, i don't get to talk to too many people about the actual balance. But some of your points about kirby might not feel as bad in this demo, i did nerf him a little bit.

Also, i'll have the timer in the next demo. Perhaps even in a 2.1.

-4nace

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Okay, sounds good. I'll let you know my impressions after I play it for a few days.

 

[Ultimortal]

First thoughts:

Link is great and feels fairly even with Mario and Kirby, his down ground attack has a ton of priority, but is also punishable. He can spam bombs way faster than Mario's fireballs... downwards bomb to Dair is a good KO move. Aerial down bombs can be used to get one more jump, which he definitely needs offstage. His sword has sick range at times...

Pika seems kind of weak, with few of his attacks sending the opponents anywhere. Using the electric jolt instead of skull bash makes him better, but some moves like Dair make him stop in midair, making it hard to approach. I keep teleporting off the stage, but that's just me. Very hard to KO with. He's not as quick as I thought, so his knockback might need to be buffed. This is just after an hour of playing with friends though.

I didn't notice Kirby being much different from before, but it's been awhile. Mario is still my main.

The arcade mode is short and well done, are you planning on adding some more stages later? After a while I beat it with Mario using the lowest number of lives, and unlocked a level, is that how you're supposed to do it?

I like the new levels, the secret level can get kinda campy on the edges though. Everyone thought Chansey(?) was kinda creepy.

Great job so far!

 

[BigLord]

Agreed with everything Ultimortal said, except Link will probably be my main now. Recovery by throwing a bomb downwards? Awesome!

(Also, thanks for telling us on how to unlock the secret level! Tee hee hee)

But hear this: I FOUND A BUG in Team VS!

Maybe it's just my game, but the game seems to crash when there's only one opponent in the other team. (2v1 matches. It was me + a lvl1 CPU on team 1 versus a LVL3 cpu on team 2).

Didn't test for simple 2v2 matches though.

 

[DeeNinjaa]

That's it. I give up. I NEED shielding in this game because as it is, I can't use ANYONE at all, and I continue to get pummelled. Plus, the AI is campy, spammy, and never tries to approach you. In its current state, this game has suddenly become next to unplayable for me.

 

[Last Elixir]

That's it. I give up. I NEED shielding in this game because as it is, I can't use ANYONE at all, and I continue to get pummelled. Plus, the AI is campy, spammy, and never tries to approach you. In its current state, this game has suddenly become next to unplayable for me.

You could also argue the importance of camping/spamming projectiles in a game where you cannot block things, and your ability to avoid getting hit is solely based on your ability to move your character away from things. It's similar to why I want a dash, but a dash doesn't add an extra button into the game!

Also, Demo 2 is fun, but apparently winning with only 1 life isn't the key to the secret stage because I did that and didn't get anything. And, how do I change Pikachus fground, or is that not something you decided to include?

 

[BigLord]

Secret stage discussion: You probably have to win with Mario? I dunno lol

I think he decided not to include pikachu's fground, yeah. Skull bash it is.

DeeNinjaa, what are your mains in Melee/Brawl/64? Maybe it's your style of play that's not compatible with SSL, because I friggin love demo2!

(but please don't forget about the bug I reported! Anyone else experiences that?)

 

[Last Elixir]

Secret stage discussion: You probably have to win with Mario? I dunno lol

I think he decided not to include pikachu's fground, yeah. Skull bash it is.

DeeNinjaa, what are your mains in Melee/Brawl/64? Maybe it's your style of play that's not compatible with SSL, because I friggin love demo2!

(but please don't forget about the bug I reported! Anyone else experiences that?)

I played a 2v1 match and it worked fine, but I won and then the match did not end at all, and my AI buddy kept on puffing around the screen attacking nothing, so I decided to off myself and see what happened, and as I lost my last life, the game reported an error.

___________________________________________
ERROR in
action number 13
of  Step Event
for object obj_player:

In script ai_step:
In script findTarget:
Error in code at line 7:
       if(ai_target.team == team && instance_number(obj_player) > 2){
                    ^
at position 19: Unknown variable team

EDIT: I clicked on ignore the error, and then my AI buddy died, making an offstage explosion like he was knocked away. This happened repeatedly until he was out of lives, and then at the results screen it said that my team lost. ;.;

 

[DeeNinjaa]

Big Lord, I main random in all 3 smashes. As for Pika's moves....try hitting F2 in the menu. You'll get a nice surprise. Oh and tap jump is bad. It takes too long to register the jump, and I still desperately need shielding. Moving is too hard as acceleration is slow as molasses, and there should be a little less gravity. Smash is known for its pick-up-and-play accessibility that lets anyone get in on the action pretty easily. But this game seems to have a much steeper learning curve.

This is all speculation and opinion; it could very easily be I'm simply too used to Brawl.


Edit: I've figured out what stage to use for Link's unlockable. Use the inside of the kakariko windmill from OoT. Since you're in a building, you can't KO sideways. Plus, the spinning platforms that move the windmill will exercise timing for KO'ing your enemy.

 

[4nace]

Hey guys! Thanks for the bug report on demo 2! I just changed the ways teams work so i can see why they error would occur. Expect a bug fix very soon!

Also, let me know what you think about balance. As for the pick up and play, i'm not too sure exactly why its harder to pick-up than the others? I would think only one attack button would make it easier.

-4nace

 

[DeeNinjaa]

It's not the button scheme that determines simplicity, it's the game itself. Moving around is slow and tedious most of the time, making avoiding attacks very difficult.
Shielding could work like this: Each character has an animation they use to actually go into the crouch. Pressing attack before the animation finishes will activate the dgroundvattack. Pressing(and holding) attack while you're actually crouching will bring up the shield. Good idea?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Here are my current thoughts:

Kirby is still extremely good. Bair seems to work the same way it did last time and is probably the best move in the demo, and his ability to air/platform camp is still excellent. He shuts down Mario more or less completely, although I think Link and possibly Pikachu can put up a fight against him.

Link is really good! This, to a very large extent, is because of his bombs. They can be pulled out quickly, have good knockback and stun, and can reliably combo into Link's fair, which is overall almost certainly Link's best KO move. Most of the other moves in Link's arsenal are fine, but Link is definitely at his best when playing nonstop keep-away with bombs. That he can jump by throwing one down in the air only furthers his evasive capabilities. I think he beats Pikachu and Mario very convincingly, since neither character has a great answer to his camping, and can probably hold his own against Kirby. The thing is that he can actually horizontally outspace Kirby, which isn't something Mario/Pikachu can do very well, and he can KO Kirby quite well. Bomb -> fair is actually a bit harder to land on him at KO percentages than it is on the other characters, but it's still very possible to set it up; it's also very possible to just KO Kirby with a lone fair that isn't preceded by anything. Amusingly, autocanceled bair -> fair a legitimate means of KOing Kirby at high percentages. Of course, Kirby can still easily evade bad positions against Link by staying very high, but I think Link can deal with this by being very patient and using bombs wisely, although it is still in all likelihood an uphill and frustrating battle for Link.

I have mixed feelings about Pikachu so far, but overall I feel that he is pretty decent. Fair comes out very quickly and is good for pressure/damage-accumulation at low percentages. It's also a good means of breaking out of not-perfectly-set-up bair juggles by Kirby, which is an extremely useful trait in this game considering how heavily Kirby's match-ups revolve around that move. Bair has good range and can lead into itself, which is nice; usmash and sometimes bair can lead into thunder, which is also really good. Usmash as a standalone move is really solid, too. Pikachu seems well-rounded in the sense that he's pretty decent in spite of not having a crazy good move or tactic that over-centralize's his gameplay, e.g. Link's run-away bomb strat and Kirby's aerial abuse/bair. Like I mentioned earlier, I think he has a pretty bad match-up against Link, though. Granted, he can fair through bombs, which is nice and I might not be giving that enough credit, and it's mildly difficult for Link to escape once Pikachu has penetrated his defenses, but it definitely feels like a losing match-up overall to me.

Mario simply feels bad. His ground game is decent, but Kirby/Link are very good at rendering a character's ground game irrelevant. Mario's aerial game is pretty lackluster aside from bair, which is fast and can lead to death combos in a manner analogous to Kirby's bair, although not to as extreme an extent. Mario also lacks a really solid means of KOing an airborne opponent, which is something that all of the other characters can do pretty well (Link mainly has bomb -> fair, but also bomb -> dair and even just a bomb at high percentages can KO somebody jumping around; Kirby has bair -> lots of bairs until the opponent has been shoved off-screen; Pikachu has bair, which can KO vertically and sometimes lead to thunder), which means that his opponent will often live to pretty high percentages. It doesn't help that his jumps themselves have lackluster height. Regarding match-ups, I don't think he has the tools to deal with well-done Link keep-away strats, although he actually can death combo Link decently well with bairs, a la Kirby. Speaking of Kirby, the puffball shuts down Mario really badly in a few different regards. First of all, Mario is barely capable of approaching a Kirby that is stubbornly flying around the top of the screen. Secondly, he is particularly vulnerable to Kirby-bair nonsense; he can't get around bair well and he is very susceptible to bair chains leading to death (not exactly an uncommon trait in this game, but he seems particularly vulnerable to getting carried straight out-of-bounds after getting hit with a single bair). Even when he does catch Kirby in the air, chances are whatever move he can reach Kirby with won't lead to a KO unless the Kirby is at a really high percentage or got caught with something really risky like a high Mario up-B/uair. I haven't thought about the Mario/Pikachu match-up much, although I reckon that he does fine in that.

I think that's more or less everything I wanted to say at the moment. I'll let you know if I think of anything else.

 

[Ultimortal]

I disagree with the game needing shields, as I think it's more about spacing. The AI isn't that bad, and a player can easily spam more than they do, as they don't seem too interested in projectiles. They're not good at stopping approaches IMO.

Also, I like the momentum of the characters, although they felt slow at first.

Mario might need less recovery on his ground forward and down attacks, as he keeps getting punished even when they hit, unless at high percentages. Tornado > uppercut works well as long as you can chase the opponent (tapping A to rise out of the final tornado hit if you're on the ground). Still suggesting slightly more knockback for Pika.

 

[4nace]

Haha, well i made pikachu slightly faster in the bugfix, i didn't want him to feel too slow.

Hopefully he feels better, i might slow him up again, not sure.

Anyway, the bugfix is online and can be found at the same link. Also thanks alot for the balance post, Fly_Amantia! I'll respond to all of ti very soon.

 

[DeeNinjaa]

So shields aren't happening? :<

 

[BigLord]

Last Elixir that was exactly what was happening to me, too. I'm glad 4nace has already fixed it.

Very nice post too, Fly_amanita! Agreed with Mario, he needs to be "fixed" ASAP.

PS: thanks for the F2 tip, DeeNinjaa :D

 

[4nace]

Hey guys!

So a couple things that I want to go through balance ways, addressing some of the posts.

@Shielding:
I don't think shielding would make the game any better right now. I can understand why people would want it, but unless it is done really well, it would clash with the simple style. I think that I can make the gameplay technical without shielding. Hell you can dodge a bunch of attacks with simply ducking. Also ducking decreases knockback which makes you able to punish people at low percents.

Now going through Fly's sweet analysis. So my friends and I play alot and while I agree with about 80% of what you said, there are a few things I'm not sure about
@Kirby:
I think Kirby is a good character to base the balance off since he was the best in Demo 1, however, I don't think there is a huge gap between him and the other characters. A few of my friends think Kirby is the worst now, but I just think that his play is predictable. He obviously wants to back air and brick often and if you can't get a downsmash off early, you probably won't be killing them before they kill you.

@Link:
I agree with pretty much everything you say except that kirby shuts Link down completely. I do think Kirby has a bit of an advantage but with Bombs and his super quick back air, I think that Link can fair pretty well vs Kirby. Link has the tools to beat everyone if he knows how to reset the ranged situation.

@Pika:
I agree pretty much with everything you say about Pikachu. I really enjoy playing Pika and i think that he does feel pretty balanced with any over abused move (other than back air, forward air) Pika is a bit faster in the bugfix which makes him even better, but I worry now that he might be too fast and that his speed could be exploited even more. All pika's attacks are good in different situations and right now I am pretty happy with his balance.

@Mario:
OKay, this is the main part I disagree. I don't think Mario is awful, or even the worst. Mario is pretty vulnerable to back air and bomb spam, but so is everyone inlcuding the ditto heh. But I think that you could play Mario a bit differently and find success. Mario tornado can be chained into itself to rank up damage at low percentages. His up air can kill off the top of the screen at pretty low percentages. His forward air can get him early kills. His fireball can help versus bomb spam and also help to get that up ground kill at low 100s. I think Mario is actually pretty close to Kirby and definitely very viable. Maybe its just because we don't have a Kirby who can abuse backair well, or possibly because the kids that do play mario have been doing it a while, but I think that Mario has a very balanced moveset and does not need too much tweaking going into the next demo.

To show off a bit of how we play Mario here is a video of my friend beating my pikachu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkWltVGKvck

So yeah if you have time, upload a video of you versus someone so I can see exactly how your fights play out. I don't think my friends and I have reached the peak of how each character can play, but I definitely think at the point we are at that Mario is pretty good and has a chance versus everyone.

-4nace

 

[BigLord]

So, about Mario, long story short, if you play technical (using lots of bairs, pursuing with up-air, etc) with him, you'll definitely win. But you don't need to go technical with kirby to win easily

I think you still should just, at least, reduce the recovery time on his fground/dashattack. Other than that, I agree with you.

 

[DeeNinjaa]

So Mario is F Tier, Kirby is still S Tier. Since you need skill with Mario, and bair timing with Kirby.
Also; how the hell do you unlock that stage? I've beaten arcade twice now with mario; once on 4 stock, the other on 2. Does it NEED to be 1?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Nice reply.

@Link:
I agree with pretty much everything you say except that kirby shuts Link down completely. I do think Kirby has a bit of an advantage but with Bombs and his super quick back air, I think that Link can fair pretty well vs Kirby. Link has the tools to beat everyone if he knows how to reset the ranged situation.

I think you might have misread my post since I said that I think Link does pretty well against Kirby. I agree with what you say here.

@Mario:
OKay, this is the main part I disagree. I don't think Mario is awful, or even the worst. Mario is pretty vulnerable to back air and bomb spam, but so is everyone inlcuding the ditto heh. But I think that you could play Mario a bit differently and find success. Mario tornado can be chained into itself to rank up damage at low percentages. His up air can kill off the top of the screen at pretty low percentages. His forward air can get him early kills. His fireball can help versus bomb spam and also help to get that up ground kill at low 100s. I think Mario is actually pretty close to Kirby and definitely very viable. Maybe its just because we don't have a Kirby who can abuse backair well, or possibly because the kids that do play mario have been doing it a while, but I think that Mario has a very balanced moveset and does not need too much tweaking going into the next demo.

The thing with tornado is that it requires being right next to the opponent while Link and Kirby should play keep-away against him, so it should be difficult to land tornado on those characters. Fair is fine when the opponent is off-stage or in a position such that you can combo off the fair, which is something that I probably didn't credit enough. Uair isn't bad, but it's not as strong as Link's or Kirby's aerial KO options.

Regarding the Mario-Kirby match-up, I think the biggest problem is that it's really hard for Mario to catch a patient, evasive Kirby. Yes, he can get early uair KOs if he catches Kirby, but I think Kirby should be able to avoid that purely on reaction most of the time. Kirby can occasionally drop down and poke with bair, and once Mario hits 30% or so, he's in danger of getting bair WOP'd out of bounds. I actually can believe that Mario could deal damage to Kirby at a similar overall rate as Kirby most of the time in the war of attrition, but I think it's much harder for Mario to KO Kirby, and most of his good KO options carry a heavy risk, whereas a well-spaced Kirby bair is incredibly safe and typically has even greater payoff.

Regarding Mario vs. Link, I'm skeptical of how useful fireballs are, for reasons that I probably should have mentioned in my prior post. When Link plays keep-away with bombs, he should be sticking to platforms unless he has some incentive to be on the ground. Because of the trajectory of fireballs, they shouldn't be able to apply much pressure to Link unless Mario is approaching from above (e.g. if Link is on the left platform of Dreamland and Mario approaches from the other side of the stage via the top platform), which isn't a common scenario. If Mario isn't directly to the side of Link or above him and to Link's side, I believe Link has a positional advantage because of the generally great versatility of bombs. Mario's ground KO options are fine, but since Link plays keep-away on platforms, I don't think they're very reliable in this match-up. Kind of like with the Kirby match-up, I also feel that even if Mario can keep up with Link damage-wise, Link's generally better KO options would let him win the attrition war.

To show off a bit of how we play Mario here is a video of my friend beating my pikachu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkWltVGKvck

So yeah if you have time, upload a video of you versus someone so I can see exactly how your fights play out. I don't think my friends and I have reached the peak of how each character can play, but I definitely think at the point we are at that Mario is pretty good and has a chance versus everyone.

The match looks good. Note that I didn't disagree that Mario can hold his own against Pikachu quite well.

I don't have anybody decent to play with or any means of uploading matches; my views are educated conjectures based on my understanding of the game mechanics. I am well aware that this can't possibly hold the same weight as actual playtesting between people who practice together, so naturally you should hold your views above mine should you disagree, but I'm glad that you're willing to consider what I say nonetheless.

 

[4nace]

@Biglord
Hey I agree that Mario is a bit harder to play. Its a valid point I hadn't thought of since we're so used to him. But as for the ending lag on the dash attack? Do you think its a problem? The hitbox is actually out for the majority of the time, so while it does last a while it still hurts for a while. However, if it feels unresponsive then i could speed it up a bit. I am really going for a thing where each attack feels good even if its not necessarily your best attack

@Deeninja
Hahaha F Tier. But i haven't made ganondorf! (yet? haha no...) Anyway, as for the secret stage, all i can say is muwahahahahaaaaaaa.

@Fly_Amanita

So yeah, thats pretty amazing you were able to decipher so much so fast without playing against a human competitor. You definitely need to call a friend over and give it a go, because it is alot of fun to do 1v1s or Free-for-Alls.

But alot of what you say in your post is pretty valid I would say. Your analysis of Link is pretty spot-on because I've began to notice that you can win as link thinking only about stage position for the majority of the game. That could end up being lame if it overcentralizes his game, but right now it is still fun for us so i'm going to keep the take-out speed fast so bombs are fun and useable.

One other thing that I would like to point out to you is the in-practice effect. I think that in-practice, two things are very changed even though in theory they would not work that way.
The first is the kirby back-air. I've noticed that unless you practice the bair catch, then it is pretty easy to mess up. Since kirby can turn around on each jump, it is very easy to accidently hammer and lose your chain off the screen. I honestly haven't practiced the hand-motion enough but i know for us right now the chain of Bair of the screen is easier said than done haha. But thats why i want to see other people's matches! =)
The second is mario tornado. At first glance, the move seems to be outranged by ground attacks and some aerials but because of the mobility mario has in it (much like MK tornado) the move can become a big part of the mario play because you can pursue opponents and then attack at the end of tornado due to its lack of ending lag. Also the hitbox is fairly big. Some of my friends still wonder why i haven't nerfed tornado, but I like it because it is the main tool mario has to mount a comeback.

But yeah, I am kinda interested in anything that you would consider is a must-change in this demo (if anything) Moves that overcentralize or are completely useless in your head. SInce the moveset is so small, i would like to make sure that every move is useable and fun.

-4nace

 

[DeeNinjaa]

Okay, so I've been messing around lately. I'm actually starting to consider Mario's approach game incredible due to his FGround and NGround. His NGround allows you to combo into anything, even a UGround if the opponent was positioned correctly. His DAir honestly sucks. It does little to no KB and I can't seem to even land the finishing hit without being punished. Mario is suddenly like God to me.

Edit: It took a long time(and a lot of luck(THANK YOU KIRBY TEAM)), but I finally got the secret stage. I think it's the best stage yet. You're really good at level designing. I can't wait to see all the other original creations. Oh and I now main Link.

 

[BigLord]

I main Link too, you rascal! Damnit, lol. Now I need chibi-Falcon

(j/K)

4nace, yeah I think you should speed it up. Of course the move, on the original games, works EXACTLY like in SSL, but the "engine" is different anyway. So it should be a liiittle different.

Oh, and seeing DeeNinjaa reminded me of Uground. It's very, very slow, hard to connect with a human opponent. I'm not sure of exactly what you should do to balance it up (and therefore make Mario a better character) but if someone else shares my opinion, please say something.


PS: holy crap Ganondorf in SSL would be hilarious, hahaha!

 

[DeeNinjaa]

UGround for Mario is the strongest move in the game, so of course it needs to be slow.

 

[BigLord]

Indeed, but IMO it doesn't need to be THAT slow.

 

[DeeNinjaa]

It's not really that slow for a move that can kill at 60+ :/
EDIT: Time for a bug report!

I was watching a CPU FFA between all four characters on Dreamland, 3 stock, and when two of the four lost all their stock, this happened.

ERROR in
action number 13
of Step Event
for object obj_player:

In script ai_step:
Error in code at line 45:
if ai_target.x > x and floor(random(40))=0 {ai_walk=1; ai_timer = 0;}
^
at position 15: Unknown variable x

Then everyone suddenly died except for Mario, so he ended up winning(he was P4)

Yes, this occured in the bugfix'd .exe

 

[Wiggy]

You should try Rob
How do you unlock that locked stage?
and what program are you using to sprite the sprites?
Paint?

 

[Shorts]

What are the character slot limitations on the program you are using? I'm curious.

 

[Jaklub]

What are the character slot limitations on the program you are using? I'm curious.

There aren't.

 

[4nace]

@Deeninja

Thanks for the compliments on the stage. I just finished drawing the Pokemon-Inspired stage and i think you guys will really enjoy it =). As for the down air. Try to use it as a combo-starting doing it into moves like up air or landing on the ground and doing down smash. It's nice for his movability. As for the error, I haven't been able to recreate it yet, but if I found out what happened, I will stomp the bug for next demo.

@Biglord
Yeah, I can see that its a bit slow both movement-wise and the time it lasts. I will look into tweaking it a bit so it feels better. As for the upground, try using fireballs to help set up your upground =). Or hit a kirby who is trying to cutter you. And Chibi Falcon would be hilarious still. If I ever develop more than 6, he's on my list. But right now, 6 is the final.

@Wiggy
I use photoshop, but the most the tools I use can be found in paint. As for the stage, i think Ultimortal gave some spoilers on the last page.

@Shortie
Jaklub is right, there is no restriction, but to keep it a believable gameboy game, i am restricting the roster to 6 characters.

@Everyone
So development is going nicely, albeit a little slow. One more inspired stage is drawn (pokemon inspiration) and the 5th character is about a third of the way through spriting. I still think you guys will really enjoy playing him/her.

Also, I have refined an old idea by DeeNinja and am preparing it for inclusion. For endless mode, I had originally planned to make it a single player game where you fight 2 or more opponents on a stage and then go to a rest stage between matches and just play on random stages. But i decided that it might be best to simplify it. I also decided that i want to offer it for co-op with up to 4 players. So instead, I am going to make my own battlefield stage that is really simple like the one from brawl.

I am just going to make it so you fight until one person dies and random opponents keep spawning with varying weights (so some may die in one hit, but others may be close to a full player). Then on the high scores, there will be 4 lists. Single, Two-Player, Three-Player and Four-Player. I will also be able to pull out which characters you did it with and who died (haha, forever remembering your co-op fails). I still need to figure out what site I will be using for the score list, but I know i want to develop it with online leaderboards so people have something to reach for. Both Endless and Co-op Endless require that you unlock to two secret characters.

Battlefield may or may not be a playable stage in versus. I have yet to decide haha.

Anyway, I am going to finish up the 5th character and the inspired stages first. I don't think there will be a demo until the final now, so it will be a while. However, I may release a video with a stage spoiler or two as time goes on.

Anyway, share them opinions on the characters now! And what options you would like to see in versus mode. I know DeeNinja would like to see palette swapping and I am looking into ways to make that possible in the next release.

-4nace

 

[DeeNinjaa]

Hey, about Endless mode. If you're gonna do it like that, I figure you should use whatever sort of Fighting Team you plan on using for the enemies. The Pixel Team idea BigLord pitched could actually work - just take all the character sprites and make each pixel the same color. Sort of like silhouettes. And to determine how hard it is to kill the enemy, use size. The bigger the enemy, the harder to knock them away. That way you won't need extra programming and can go with size/damage scaling programming that will be needed for the obligatory Giant battle in arcade mode.
One question, though. Will it be like in Brawl, if one player dies it's Game Over? Or will it keep going till every player is eliminated?

Also, I thought of this pattern for Arcade Mode.

Stage 1: Vs. Link
Stage 2: Vs. Link & Pikachu
Stage 3: Break the Targets
Stage 4: Vs. Kirby
Stage 5: Vs. Giant Kirby
Stage 6: Race to the Finish
Stage 7: Vs. Mario
Stage 8: Vs. Metal Mario
Stage 9: Vs. Character 5***
Stage 10: Vs. Character 5 & Character 6****
Stage 11: Fighting Pixel Team
Stage 12: Final Destination Boss*
Credits Game
Stage 13: Challenger**

I think it's pretty good, if you ask me. Since this comes after SSB64, and SSB64 had a fixed arcade mode that always had the characters in the same orders, I think the same should be done with SSL. And this seems like an okay way to do so.

*Stage 10, we don't quite know what the end boss for Arcade will be yet, so I just put Final Destination Boss. It could be anything, really.
**Should you take the Arcade Mode approach for one of the characters to be unlocked, that's there.
***Stage unlocked once Character 5 is unlocked.
****Stage unlocked once Character 6 is unlocked.

 

[BigLord]

I don't think Metal Mario would translate very well into the game, but heh it's your call... I kinda find that pattern for arcade kinda overwhelming. I like it simple as it is, it's a great time killer (Imma gonna beat my own highscore next time!!).

That reminds me: 4nace, could you at least add an online leaderboard? I keep hearing people saying "WE WANT ONLINE!!1!" by I'd be content with just that, giving people an extra incentive to play the arcade mode

 

[4nace]

@DeeNinja


Good ideas. I think that your arcade mode might be a bit too long though haha. I would probably just do 2 more matches (one semi-boss and final boss) and then probably a break the targets. Although race to the finish might be nice too.

And i was thinking about the pixel idea. Its good, but the only probably is scaling pixel art would look really bad. So right now i am trying to come up with ways that you could tell when someone is going to die really easily or take more hits. But having them be the silhouettes is a pretty good idea and would match smash 64 nicely. I think just changing color would not work, because the lighter green silhouettes would blend into the background. Also doing 2 color silhouettes would require 2 new sprites for every single sprite which would not be worth it. Where as just doing the darkest color I could just tint the whole sprite that color.


For endless, I think i would do it where one player dies it is game over, but maxim tomatoes spawn very rarely and heal you 100 damage. That way it requires really good co-operation if you want to get on the high score list.


@BigLord
Yeah i do plan on an online high score list, at least for endless mode =). I might as well add one for your combined arcade mode high score too so players who like arcade mode can get some recognition. Good call.

As for metal mario.... I'm still debating lol. I really don't want to draw master hand though, but i mighttttt..


Also, development hype! I re-arranged the select screen. With a simple change of a variable, i could have leaked the two secret characters. But you guys will have to wait til the release to unlock them =P

TinyPic Image

-4nace

 

[DeeNinjaa]

4nace, do me a favor, please. Upload that image on a different image hoster, like tinypic. I can't see it because Dad's stupid web filter says Imageshack contains nudity(the ****? .___.)

Also, the traditional arcade mode is 8 stages long, so it's not too farfetched.

Ohh, so THAT's how you're gonna fit all 6 characters on the CSS. Though, I'd get rid of the random. Random wasn't visibly used till SSBB. While it was in SSBM, there was no icon for it. So if you really wanna do random, I'd recommend SSBM's approach.

EDIT: Oh, I just thought up a nice little nostalgic effect. When a Gameboy/Color turns on, it has that splash screen with the Gameboy logo. Why not add that as the first screen seen when you start up SSL?

 

[Luxor]

Please be Hector *crosses fingers*

I finally got around to playing with Pika and Link today.

I would like to echo what Fly said about Link- he's pretty friggin' awesome. Kudos for doing such an excellent job on him. His style of play is incredibly unique, yet still very viable. Epic character is epic, basically; I can't say much that hasn't already been said. He has great KO options, the best in the game right now in bomb--> hookshot, Dair... pretty much everything. I'd say Link is the gold standard of what I would want every character to be in this game.

Kirby is still great, mostly because of Bair (Kirby dittos are annoying >_>). It's pretty important for Bair to be great, though, because without it he's hopeless. I find Fair woefully inferior, to the point where there's no reason to use it. Dair is actually his second best aerial, useful as a c-c-c-c-combo breaker sometimes. Uair is in the same boat as Fair; and with his recovery Uair basically goes unused. His ground game is acceptable as well. If I could change Kirby, I would probably make all of Fair's hits have the same knockback of the last hit. A buff, I know, but in my perfect world every character would be buffed up to Link's level. Link is great. Not even OP. Just great.

Mario. His Tornado is underrated IMO; it's really his saving grace since fireballs are outshined now. That mobility in the air with a constant hitbox is really great, though. Mario would be perfect if his signature Fair were buffed a bit- if it came out at Bair speed with a large-ish hitbox he'd be able to compete on par with Camping Kirby and Link.

Pikachu- Usmash--> Thunder is a fantastic finisher, but I feel he needs more reliable ways to rack damage (he is a light, ostensibly combo-based character, after all?). Eliminating Fair's landing lag (c-c-c-combo starter) and speeding up Bair (feels really out of place, being so much slower than everyone else's Bair on the fastest character) would be great. Playing Pika, I wish he had a fast jab-like move at close range, like Kirby/Mario's dash attacks- I guess his Dsmash kinda works, or Usmash, but something to consider.

I would like to maintain that implementing crouch cancelling à la Melee would:

• Be a way to implement "shielding" without adding an extra button
• Help to negate campy tactics. If you can crouch out of a run, you can run up to that short-hop-Bair-spamming-Kirby, CC the low-KB Bair, and counterattack. It wouldn't turn the game into wait-until-they-attack-and-CC either; not every move is inherently CC'able. Powerful approaches (Link's Fsmash, etc.) aren't really affected by it, it's really a deterrent against weak, spammy stuff like Bair and fireballs and bombs.
• Adds a new layer of strategy and depth to the game
• Adds a Rock-Paper-Scissors element into approaching- SH approaches beat standard ground moves, standard ground moves beat CC'ing, CC'ing beats SH approaches. Just like attack-grab-block in other fighting games.

My $.02. Also, thanks for including me in the credits!

 

[BigLord]

I agree with Dee Ninjaa on the "random" issue. There was no button for it before, so why start on the gameboy? clicking OUTSIDE the character icons will do just fine.

Also, hurray for online highscores! :D


Luxor's post is amazing if only because of what he said about Link. It's like he read my mind!