Suggested Custom Specials for every character

[warriorman222]

Does Sing lead into Rest setups at least or is that mashable?

Only at high percents like 100+, even then CPUs can and will mash out, and humans are well beyond kill percent already.

 

[Thinkaman]

Does Sing lead into Rest setups at least or is that mashable?

Not really, at least not on the initial hitbox.

 

[popsofctown]

I have no idea why Dark Pit's Piercing bow breaks the fabric of the forum cobe and tears the "view all" list I made into two pieces. I figured there was a max size on the spoiler and it was splitting it in two, but if that was the case more stuff would go into the small part as the list got longer.
I looked at the code twice and didn't see any stray bracket statements near Dark Pit's Piercing Bow..

 

[popsofctown]

The lists I got for Peach and Wario are kind of green heavy. I use at most one green per category, because a green is a move that you should try out first, to an extent, and you can't have two firsts. A category can't be all green, but it can be all yellow: that means it doesn't matter which one you try first. Even those should mostly come up only when the moves are very matchup responsive, like reflectors, or when the moves are very apple-orangey and you can forge a playstyle based on either one, like Megaman or Palutena.

 

[Thinkaman]

For the record I think this format (the one you are using) is pretty solid.

I like to read it as:
Purple - Dominant - Used in 90-100% of 1v1 matchups
Green - Superior - Used in 66-89% of 1v1 matchups
Yellow - Viable - Used in 1-65% of 1v1 matchups
Red - Non-Viable - Used in 0% of 1v1 matchups

I agree that there should only be one Purple or Green per character. This simplicity is critical for the purpose of this list.

I do think there are some circumstances where it is reasonable to have a Purple option and still have a Yellow--where a move really is dominant, but an alternative is still important in highly specific matchups. I think this combination accurately tells a new player looking at this thread casually what they need to know: "The purple move is best, but be aware that the yellow one exists."

Otherwise, why have Purple as a separate color? Green and Red would already show simple dominance.

We should be responsible though, and usually only allow this in cases where the yellow move really does deserve to be used in some matchups--not just a "runner up that is still an okay move". It has to be a move that people are legitimately going to use.

In my mind there are exactly two exceptions: (default) Timber and Reflect Barrier. Imo, Timber Counter and Super Speed really should be used in every matchup. However, those two original defaults are still both very strong moves and extremely different from their superior alternatives. Players should still have a full understanding of and be able to deal with both moves, the same way they should learn how to deal with a low-tier character, even if no one is currently expected to use them. (Keyword: expected)

 

[popsofctown]

I noticed that purple is actually the same as green sometime during page 2, but I think it's nice that purple lets you glance through and see which characters are the least flexible.

For now I'm putting highly specific stuff as red because they don't need to part of early experimentation. Maybe after this thread matures and theres more consensus and confirmation abounding I can assign pink for moves for very specific stuff like killing villager's tree with Scalding Fluud. Part of why I don't want to jump the gun and do that right away is that some of it is speculative and just might end up being dominated by the default anyway.


As for Timber and Reflect Barrier, I suspect they're both low tier options, and I really just want enough consensus on that to feel comfortable coloring them red. Expectations of what your opponents might be slotting is just not the purpose I have in mind for the list, and to accurately reflect what should be expected out of opponents in a tournament setting would require me to put the sort of ForGlory bias into the list that I want eradicated from the community in the first place.
If it's apple and orange but the apple is melee marth and the orange is melee mewtwo, I want the apple purple the orange red. The correct choice for long term growth with the character is to practice the different, more powerful option.

 

[Kofu]

Reflect Barrier is a solid enough move to nearly shut whole characters down (Villager for sure and possibly Mega Man, I don't have experience using him to say though). Regular Timber is, as Thinkaman said, a very strong move in and of itself. If you're not aware of the kill power the move possesses, you'll be caught by surprise occasionally, especially in areas where custom moves aren't allowed.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Reflect Barrier is a solid enough move to nearly shut whole characters down (Villager for sure and possibly Mega Man, I don't have experience using him to say though). Regular Timber is, as Thinkaman said, a very strong move in and of itself. If you're not aware of the kill power the move possesses, you'll be caught by surprise occasionally, especially in areas where custom moves aren't allowed.

Real talk though, is there anyone at this point who doesn't know the tree can kill?

 

[Kofu]

Real talk though, is there anyone at this point who doesn't know the tree can kill?

Probably not. They might not all know how big and how long the hit boxes last, though (read: stupidly long).

 

[Thinkaman]

It's not just the tree as a hitbox, but also the dynamics of the Villager being able to hide behind the 30HP tree with the option intact. It's a different playstyle than the 15HP Counter Tree that poses much less threat, but blocks off options.

And of course, giving villager an extremely fast 14% aerial kill move is also a big matchup changer.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Counter Tree is overall optimal in every matchup. But I think Counter Tree is the 2nd best move in the game. Villager-with-normal-Tree is a VERY different character with unique strengths, and worth knowing how to cope with.

 

[adom4]

It's not just the tree as a hitbox, but also the dynamics of the Villager being able to hide behind the 30HP tree with the option intact. It's a different playstyle than the 15HP Counter Tree that poses much less threat, but blocks off options.

And of course, giving villager an extremely fast 14% aerial kill move is also a big matchup changer.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Counter Tree is overall optimal in every matchup. But I think Counter Tree is the 2nd best move in the game. Villager-with-normal-Tree is a VERY different character with unique strengths, and worth knowing how to cope with.

What do you think is the best move?

 

[Thinkaman]

What do you think is the best move?

Hammer Spin Dash

 

[Big O]

For the record I think this format (the one you are using) is pretty solid.

I like to read it as:
Purple - Dominant - Used in 90-100% of 1v1 matchups
Green - Superior - Used in 66-89% of 1v1 matchups
Yellow - Viable - Used in 1-65% of 1v1 matchups
Red - Non-Viable - Used in 0% of 1v1 matchups

I agree that there should only be one Purple or Green per character. This simplicity is critical for the purpose of this list.

I do think there are some circumstances where it is reasonable to have a Purple option and still have a Yellow--where a move really is dominant, but an alternative is still important in highly specific matchups. I think this combination accurately tells a new player looking at this thread casually what they need to know: "The purple move is best, but be aware that the yellow one exists."

Otherwise, why have Purple as a separate color? Green and Red would already show simple dominance.

We should be responsible though, and usually only allow this in cases where the yellow move really does deserve to be used in some matchups--not just a "runner up that is still an okay move". It has to be a move that people are legitimately going to use.

In my mind there are exactly two exceptions: (default) Timber and Reflect Barrier. Imo, Timber Counter and Super Speed really should be used in every matchup. However, those two original defaults are still both very strong moves and extremely different from their superior alternatives. Players should still have a full understanding of and be able to deal with both moves, the same way they should learn how to deal with a low-tier character, even if no one is currently expected to use them. (Keyword: expected)

Honestly I think it would be more useful to get rid of purple and put in something to denote a step between red and yellow. Purple being the obvious choice is functionally no different than a green with 2 reds. In the cases you mentioned where there may be a few edge cases validating another option, that could be represented with the new color that's 1 step above red. This way green is the standard and there is more clarity overall.

Maybe something like Green = 50+%, Yellow = 20-49%, Orange = 1-19%, Red = 0%. Or keep the same colors and go from Purple to Red.

As an aside, I think the shade of purple being used here is a little too dark and should be replaced with a lighter color. I also think that the shade of red you use is also a little hard to read clearly, but it doesn't bother me because the move shouldn't be used anyway.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Yoshi: I disagree with Egg Lay being red and Lick being purple. When B-reversed, egg lay is an amazing cross up option. Other than at extremely low percents, it is a guaranteed smash attack that makes it great for building damage. It also allows you an option to read how the opponent will break out and punish with Yoshi's amazing aerials. I need to do more testing, but it seems as if each of the Neutral B attacks are preferred given certain matchups:

Lick is very effective against opponents with weak horizontal recovery because of its high horizontal knockback. It gives Yoshi an option to chase offstage as well. After Lick, one rising nair offstage will effectively kill any opponent without horizontal recovery options.

Egg lay is effective against opponents with good recovery. Although Lick is a good kill move, it isn't as easy to hit with compared to Yoshi's already stellar kill options (although admittedly I havent played with it enough to see how effective B-reversals are). As such, I would would rather rack up damage quicker with egg lay>smash attack and rely on better kill options. F-smash pushing shielded opponents back, as well as Yoshi's hurtbox moving backwards at first, make it much more safe than lick on the ground.

Egg launch is the Little Mac killer. A must have in that matchup.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Hammer Spin Dash

And *why* is Hammer Spin Dash so good?

 

[Raziek]

Spoiler

Neutral:
2 Thunder+
3 Speed Thunder
1 Thunder: A meh middle ground.

Side:
1 Arcfire Most useful overall, suitable for most situations.
3 Fire Wall Faster, good as a quick zoning tool. Also can impact the ground pretty far below Robin.
2 Arcfire+: Slow, unimpressive knockback, overall booty.

Up:
1 Elwind
2 Gliding Elwind
3 Soaring Elwind

Down:
1 Nosferatu
3 Goetia
2 Distant Nosferatu

Hi!

I'm here to offer my opinion on a number of things.

Your opinion on the Thunder variants is fine, though I would perhaps note that I think that Speed Thunder is the best choice in any match-up with a practical reflector, or against any fast character.

Side-B I would change Arcfire to Green, keep Fire Wall yellow. Though I initially loved Fire Wall, Arcfire is just way too good. Can trap ledges, catch rolls, has a great lingering hitbox, free combos into Fair, it does EVERYTHING. I only run Fire Wall now in match-ups where I need to stop people from dashing at me (and they're able to dash under it, like Sheik/Greninja/Mac).

Up-B: Elwind to Green, Gliding to Red. Robin is so unbelievably floaty that you should literally never need the extra horizontal distance, and using Gliding completely gimps Robin's ability to properly edge-guard off-stage. Soaring is just straight up awful and should stay red.

Down-B: Nosferatu should be green. Distant Nos should be either Yellow or Red. Goetia should stay Red. I don't know where you got the idea that Distant Nos is SSS tier, but it's not. The healing doesn't scale, and default Nos can get some ABSURD healing if you're Nos'ing someone who's on a fresh stock. Significantly more valuable than the 'extra' range. Distant Nos is really only useful for situational Arcfire shenanigans, but the reward is seriously low due to lack of scaling.

It's not that hard to land default Nos, it's definitely the best of the 3.

 

[dean.]

may as well throw in my opinions for dedede, since he seems pretty lonely.

Neutral special:
Inhale
Dedede Storm
Taste Test

generally find the added benefits of taste test outweigh being able to move once you've inhaled them, but this is mostly personal preference (could change it so that taste test/inhale are same colour). dedede storm is not worth using.

Side special:
Gordo Throw
Topspin Gordo
Bouncing Gordo

original generally has the most useful angles. bouncing gordo might have some potential but no-one's really been able to use it effectively yet. topspin gordo is pretty lol, not too bad though.

Up special:
Super Dedede Jump
Rising Dedede
Quick Dedede Jump

as long as you can sweetspot the ledge (and there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to be), rising dedede outclasses the other options.

Down special:
Jet Hammer
Armoured Jet Hammer
Dash Jet Hammer

none of these are useful, but dash jet hammer has large horizontal range which means you might hit with it every so often. armoured jet hammer has super armour during the charge so could maybe use to punish off hard reads; it is quite weak however.

 

[Bighands-Senpai]

's moves:

Neutral B:

Homing Attack: It's an ok hit that also has recovery capabilities. It's very situational, though, and the auto-aim thing it has is not only not perfect, but the opponent needs to be practically standing still for it to work.
Stomp: Nice option if you want to play a more aggressive Sonic. It spikes a little bit, but also reduces your recovery options as it has fixed trajectory instead of auto-aim. Because of this, you also need to learn how to time it correctly.
Surprise Attack: It does puny damage and has short range, but it's compensated by a WAAAY better auto-aim than the standard Homing Attack (it's an almost guaranteed hit, tbh). It also takes nothing to charge, unlike the other two. Useful for when the opponent is being annoying and you want him off your back.

Side B:

Spin Dash: Core move for any Sonic strat. The follow-ups you can do with this thing are the best.
Hammer Spin Dash: It has burying capabilities, but it's shield cancel window is laughably small and that makes up for some deadly punishes by the opponent.
Burning Spin Dash: It's stronger and does fire damage. Blocking this thing means longer lag time, though, and it takes longer to charge.

Up B:

Spring Jump: Best recovery option. Read bellow to see why.
Double Spring Jump: For some reason it achieves the same height as the standard. The difference between this and the normal one is that it has almost no horizontal movement and the spring that comes from it does so little damage and knockback it makes me want to cry.
Spring Headbutt: The headbutt does pathetic damage, it won't go as higher as standard and the lag is greater.

Down B:

Spin Charge: It now hits multiple times. Also makes up for good mind games, as tapping b only once will make Sonic stay in one place pretending like he's gonna charge at you. Overall it's stronger and goes faster the more you charge it.
Auto-Spin Charge: It attacks right away, which means that you loose the momentum of the first. However, it's also an unexpected move if you use it close to your opponent because it's animation looks a lot like his dash attack one.
Gravitational Charge: My favorite. It drags enemies closer so it's very good for taking someone's momentum away and also to edgeguard.

EDIT: last minute changes on the colors of some moves.

 

[Djent]

: Change Lightweight to purple now please.

 

[Ranias]

Ness's down specials need an update. I made a mistake on the healing multipliers.

Bowser is my secondary, but since I haven't seen anything for him yet, I'll post my opinion. One thing to note about Bowser's special moves is that most of them can be used to cancel landing lag after a short hopped air dodge.


Neutral:
1 Fire Breath - Stays an option for longer than Fire Roar (doesn't fade as fast). Can reliably be used to override stale move negation. Not as useful for poking as Fire Shot though.
2 Fire Shot - Useful for poking and spacing via short hopping backwards, but the lag of this move makes it unreliable if used up close.
3 Fire Roar - Higher damage than Fire breath, but the long recharge time makes it too unreliable.

Side:
1 Flying Slam - Not as easy to land as Dash Slam or Dash Slash. The best thing about this move is that it can KO at high percents, but it works the best on stages with high platforms.
2 Dash Slam - The dash makes this move amazing. However, the KO ability is removed (unless you Bowsercide), and it does a bit less damage. Can be linked to Up B in the air for recovery.
3 Dash Slash - Comes out fast and covers a large amount of distance if used on the ground and an okay amount if used in the air. Can be linked to Up B in the air for recovery. Can hit some characters out of their low priority attacks. However, you cannot Bowsercide with this move.

Up:
1 Whirling Fortress - This is the best move for approaching with, as your opponent stays with you until the last hit and doesn't launch far. Deals up to 11% damage. Recovery height increases if you press B repeatedly.
2 Flying Fortress - The worst part of this is that it is horrible to use out of shield because it jumps from the ground. Deals one hit of 4% at start to 2% at end. This move has great vertical recovery, and it is good if you never use it on the ground, but that is limiting your options.
3 Sliding Fortress - This is the best move for spacing. Deals one hit of 6% damage with decent knockback. Slides very far on the ground, faster than running even, so this move is easy to space with. Has great horizontal recovery. I think recovery height increases if you press B repeatedly on this move too.

Down:
1 Bowser Bomb - Deals 4% on the way up, 20% on the way down, and 11% if barely missed on the ground. This move can also break shields if hit directly in the middle.
2 Turbulent Bomb - Deals 4% on the way up and 9% on the way down. This move has a windbox on the sides on landing, but it is too predictable to do anything special. This move is really bad.
3 Slip Bomb - No hit on the way up, but this move is faster than Bowser Bomb. Deals 18% on direct hit, 13% if barely missed on the ground, or 2% and a trip if the wide ground wake hits.

EDIT: Changed a bit on everything. Explanation a few posts down.
EDIT2: Made Dash Slash viable based on TTTTTsd's comment.
EDIT3: Changed my mind completely about Dash Slash. Seems pretty good.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I'm playing around with Charizard's customs now....too bad I'm not familiar with the burying effect. His sinking-headbutt or whatever it's called could potentially lead into a Smash attack, but I don't know if burying last long enough in this game to be a valid strategy, and CPUs don't accurately represent how easily people break out of these things. I mean, they aren't reliable for a lot of things, but I feel like they especially aren't reliable for this. I'm going to have to ask a friend for some help.

Meanwhile, Rising Cyclone(or some other name to that effect) is better then I thought. I'm not sure if the pros out weigh the cons.

Finally, I really like Fireball Canon. More punishable, but much better range. Campers won't be a problem anymore with this move on hand. Probably. CPUs don't camp that well, can't test it yet.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Hammer Spin Dash as anything but purple is insane. The move moves at pretty much the best trajectory ever (like the direction Sonic moves; it's extremely hard for most characters to deal with), it can bury opponents for trivial combos into whatever Sonic wants including usmash which kills shockingly early in this game, and it's more or less always safe because you can jump cancel it which is also true for the other variants but the point is that safety isn't a differentiator on them because this is an extraordinarily safe move anyway. It honestly doesn't even matter what Sonic's other side specials do to get down to it; this is the best one and probably the single best move in the game.

I also find Double Spring Jump a very useful move. Springs don't exactly do anything on hit anyway, but having two of them is twice as disruptive. Being able to divide up special in two is just so much raw movement versatility on a character who was already great at mixing up his movement. I can see a real argument for default since default really helps Sonic take advantage of juggle situations better, but Double Spring Jump is better in neutral and they're pretty similar in off-stage merit really (Sonic's not getting gimped often at all either way honestly). I think there are strong arguments both ways on this move and that any Sonic main should spend a very significant amount of time with both.

EDIT:

Bowser's side special should be green on 2 and 3 and red on 1. Dash Slash has super armor which is the entire point of the move; it's Bowser's best anti-projectile option. If you can forego that, Dash Slam is just a ridiculous move in general; throwing yourself forward with a command grab is just such a ridiculous thing to do. The default isn't even a bad move, but on a heavyweight, giving up a rushing forward move that is either a rushing forward command grab (and hence, of course, unblockable) or an anti-projectile move just doesn't make sense.

 

[Hank Hill]

I tested out Charizard's customs for Rock Smash (which is what I am assuming you mean by the burying one) but it forces Charizard to be on the ground, has short range, and I find the opponent can easily escape from the burial. There's easier methods to kill with Charizard than burying the opponent and using a smash attack, methinks.

 

[Bighands-Senpai]

Hammer Spin Dash as anything but purple is insane. The move moves at pretty much the best trajectory ever (like the direction Sonic moves; it's extremely hard for most characters to deal with), it can bury opponents for trivial combos into whatever Sonic wants including usmash which kills shockingly early in this game, and it's more or less always safe because you can jump cancel it which is also true for the other variants but the point is that safety isn't a differentiator on them because this is an extraordinarily safe move anyway. It honestly doesn't even matter what Sonic's other side specials do to get down to it; this is the best one and probably the single best move in the game.

I also find Double Spring Jump a very useful move. Springs don't exactly do anything on hit anyway, but having two of them is twice as disruptive. Being able to divide up special in two is just so much raw movement versatility on a character who was already great at mixing up his movement. I can see a real argument for default since default really helps Sonic take advantage of juggle situations better, but Double Spring Jump is better in neutral and they're pretty similar in off-stage merit really (Sonic's not getting gimped often at all either way honestly). I think there are strong arguments both ways on this move and that any Sonic main should spend a very significant amount of time with both.

You are making Hammer Spring Dash sound easier to use than it actually is. The grounding is very helpful, and the movement at the start of the dash is confusing if you haven't dealt with it before, but tbh once you get the hand of it you can guard it easily and, like I said, once it hits a shield the lag it produces before you can get back on your feet is terrible. Characters like Yoshi and Fox can easily wreck you after that, and the best situation for Sonic is for the opponent to land as very little hits to you as possible considering how frail he can be and his lack of any horizontal projectile to fend them off. The standard side b is better because you have insane control over the things you can do either during the attack or afterwards with the follow-up combos. I placed Hammer in yellow because it IS viable but you need vast knowledge of how Sonic works, what his matchups are and which situations are best or worst for him, unlike purple ones that are supposed to be a no-brainer.

Double spring also has little use. Most uses of Sonic's up b uses involve him being in the air; the ground advantage that the DS gives you is not that relevant in perspective. Besides, taking all horizontal movement, however little, affects a lot the recovery of any character. The normal spring itself is insane in how it can save your life. You can literally be at the edge of the screen and spring jump back to safety. You are also sacrificing potential edgeguarding with the spring projectile for even more height when Sonic clearly does not need it.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You are making Hammer Spring Dash sound easier to use than it actually is. The grounding is very helpful, and the movement at the start of the dash is confusing if you haven't dealt with it before, but tbh once you get the hand of it you can guard it easily and, like I said, once it hits a shield the lag it produces before you can get back on your feet is terrible. Characters like Yoshi and Fox can easily wreck you after that, and the best situation for Sonic is for the opponent to land as very little hits to you as possible considering how frail he can be and his lack of any horizontal projectile to fend them off. The standard side b is better because you have insane control over the things you can do either during the attack or afterwards with the follow-up combos. I placed Hammer in yellow because it IS viable but you need vast knowledge of how Sonic works, what his matchups are and which situations are best or worst for him, unlike purple ones that are supposed to be a no-brainer.

Double spring also has little use. Most uses of Sonic's up b uses involve him being in the air; the ground advantage that the DS gives you is not that relevant in perspective. Besides, taking all horizontal movement, however little, affects a lot the recovery of any character. The normal spring itself is insane in how it can save your life. You can literally be at the edge of the screen and spring jump back to safety. You are also sacrificing potential edgeguarding with the spring projectile for even more height when Sonic clearly does not need it.

By "guard" you seem to mean block, but that doesn't really bother Sonic. Like I said, you can jump cancel the move over a very huge window up until about the moment you hit the ground (so after you hit their shield you can still jump cancel), and even if not, it passes through shields with lots of movement control remaining for Sonic after that point. Unless Sonic makes a technical mistake by hitting the very front of a shield and then just doesn't jump cancel for some reason, no character (including Yoshi or Fox) can punish it on block which means blocking it isn't really a deterrence at all to Sonic using it. Normal Spin Dash has similar mechanics so it too is pretty much always safe on block, but the normal Spin Dash moves at a low angle most characters can easily challenge by attacking. Normal Spin Dash itself also doesn't do as much on hit, just combo into other quick options, while Hammer Spin Dash combos into literally Sonic's entire moveset except at very low percent of course, but since you can jump cancel it immediately after hitting, it's the highest frame advantage grounding move in the game. Hammer Spin Dash's high angle is extremely hard to beat with attacks for most of the cast if Sonic uses it intelligently; you have to hit at a really high angle but not straight up which is not exactly the easiest attacking angle in the world to cover especially since the move has surprisingly not awful priority to boot, and Sonic can toy with his spacing to alter the very particular direction you have to try to protect which makes life even harder for Sonic's foes. It's not about being confusing; it's about what angles characters can cover well versus poorly and how most of the cast just finds Hammer Spin Dash hard to stop.

In terms of ease of use, we have to clarify a few points. One is that I believe it's way more service to teach players what options will let them learn and grow best, not what options may or may not pay off more if they really don't know what they're doing. Just like I wouldn't tell anyone to use Effortless Blade on Marth, I wouldn't tell anyone to use any custom special that's main point is ease of use. The other major point is that you have to look at the context of Sonic. Sonic is a highly technical high reward character. He's so blatantly top tier, but his speed is very hard to control while he also demands a high degree of precision. Everyone who wants an easy secondary speed character will pick Greninja or Sheik; we can expect anyone picking Sonic to be prepared to put some hours in and to expect a huge pay-off afterwards so here it's more about pointing them where to start on that road. On that point, things like dealing with projectiles are just... not problems for Sonic. Sonic runs faster than just about any projectile moves, and with a powerful move like Hammer Spin Dash that leaps over projectiles and punishes with a grounding effect, Sonic is the character you pick to shut projectile gameplay down not worry about it. Sonic isn't really frail; he has average weight, and he has a very good recovery with either viable up special (and amazingly, Hammer Spin Dash is a very useful recovery move too!). Sonic's up smash is actually a good kill move too and many of Sonic's moves do high damage so Sonic often wins in the trading hits game. Sonic has just so much crazy stuff going for him and so few downsides. What an incredible character.

I can frame Double Spring's usefulness in this basic match situation. You've just jump canceled your side special in some neutral situation. This happens a lot. You want to move up higher for whatever likely practical reason, but you can't just jump since the jump cancel consumed your double jump. You need to up special. Default isn't terrible here since it will hurl you somewhere probably safe, but the lower Double Spring lets you keep pressure up while still having another jump left if you need it and also the option to be further obstructive with a second spring. Off-stage, Sonic should probably mostly be relying on bair for gimps anyway (Sonic's movement is great and bair is a very good aerial; you can challenge them off-stage); the weaker spring isn't a big deal to me especially since if I do want to use springs I have the option of covering twice as much space at least. Yes, default is overall a better recovery but it's purely diagonal. If you space your Double Springs really wide it's actually a better horizontal recovery than default, and if you need to go straight up and burn both Double Springs at the same time it's about the same. The only problem is if you're specifically really far at a low angle (that bottom corner) which isn't a very common situation really but I suppose does happen sometimes. So off-stage Double Spring is a small downgrade for Sonic, but on-stage which is a place Sonic will up special an awful lot if not even more often, it's about whether you want more versatile movement in the neutral game as provided by Double Spring or whether you want the stronger juggle chases from default both of which are highly compelling. I don't think Double Spring is obviously correct like Hammer Spin Dash is so I wouldn't tell a Sonic not to pick default, but I think it's a strongly viable option that any Sonic has to very carefully consider since it's a major shift to his basic gameplan with significant pros and cons. There are also really hilarious niche cases too like Sonic using Double Spring to bait counters from Shulk (it just looks hilarious when it works but actually is very helpful) with the main point there being that I'm sure these exist on both sides so it's more reason that Sonic players should really learn both.

Sorry to carry on so much about Sonic and the importance of these two moves. I just think this character is destined for top tier so he's one of the characters people really need to know about, and I think Hammer Spin Dash is hugely important to pushing Sonic as far as he can go and is honestly a strong contender for the best move in the game (it's certainly the best offensive move and is staring down Timber Counter's incredible defensive prowess for best overall). Up special I feel strongly is a huge choice as well warranting very major consideration, and I'm not really convinced what Sonic picks for the other two makes much of a difference so I'm not worried about those moves.

 

[Thinkaman]

but tbh once you get the hand of it you can guard it easily and, like I said, once it hits a shield the lag it produces before you can get back on your feet is terrible.

?????

Sonic's Spin Dash (all of them) is like, the most-safe-on-block move in the game. You do impressive shield damage and end up safely a mile away in your choice of either ground or air.

The enemy is forced to intercept Spin Dash to beat it. But HSD gives Sonic a horizontal approach, a vertical approach, spinshot, and mutiple jump cancel timings--out of which dair and homing attack punish most would-be ground intercepts.

The grounding is actually superfluous and has little to do with how broken the move it.

 

[Comorant]

Here to give my thoughts on a few of Ness's Options

Down B:
1 PK Magnet // Your standard option. Heals at a 1.5 Multiplier when you absorb projectiles, and really there isn't too much to say about it this time around. It does the job.

3 PK Forward Magnet // This plays as a bit of a safer option overall. Longer Range and the ability to launch are nice. Increased endlag but you can still cancel out of it after absorbing so its not a problem most of the time. It has a smaller healing multiplier at 1.25% which can be felt with smaller projectiles but is pretty much negligible with the more lethal ones. You CAN turn around with the Forward Shield but the timing is a tad tricky so be careful about that. Between both Magnet variations, the differences are all fairly situational so its a matter of preference, but I find Forward Magnet just a bit more reliable for that range.

2 PK Vacuum // Aside from giving you something to use when the opponent has nothing to absorb with your magnet, the blast and pull both go through platforms making it able to edge guard certain characters pretty well and it can be used with Magnet hovering to safely grab the ledge and threaten to blast the other player through the bottom of the stage, which in combination with OK Thunder's changes opens up some mindgames.If anything, its at least the best option when facing opponents with no projectiles to absorb in.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Neutral
1 Hero's Bow
2 Fire Arrow
3 Piercing Arrow

Side
1 Boomerang
2 Floating Boomerang
3 High-Speed Boomerang

Up
1 Spin Attack
2 Sliding Spin Attack
3 Flying Spin Attack

Down
1 Bomb
2 Time Bomb
3 Short-Fuse Bomb

Fixed the colors to better represent what I think of the moves. Both spins are now yellow how they should be instead of green. Time Bomb is now red and Hero's Bow went to yellow while Fire Arrow stayed green. Short-Fuse Bomb is yellow as I think it can't be discarded just yet. It has an impact in how both TL and the opponent play and might be better in some matchups.

EDIT: Weird, the 3rd boomerang wont change from red even though im trying to put it yellow...

EDIT 2: There we go.

 

[Deleted member]

Neutral
1 Hero's Bow
2 Fire Arrow
3 Piercing Arrow

Side
1 Boomerang
2 Floating Boomerang
3 High-Speed Boomerang

Up
1 Spin Attack
2 Sliding Spin Attack
3 Flying Spin Attack

Down
1 Bomb
2 Time Bomb
3 Short-Fuse Bomb

In my opinion, it's more like:

Neutral
1 Hero's Bow
2 Fire Arrow
3 Piercing Arrow

Side
1 Boomerang
2 Floating Boomerang
3 High-Speed Boomerang

Up
1 Spin Attack
2 Sliding Spin Attack
3 Flying Spin Attack

I think you were spot-on with the bombs.

 

[Mota]

In my opinion, it's more like:

Neutral
1 Hero's Bow
2 Fire Arrow
3 Piercing Arrow

Side
1 Boomerang
2 Floating Boomerang
3 High-Speed Boomerang

Up
1 Spin Attack
2 Sliding Spin Attack
3 Flying Spin Attack

Interested to hear why you'd put floating rang over default rang.

Mine are

1 Hero's Bow
2 Fire Arrow
3 Piercing Arrow
Both Hero and Fire are usable and very close, but I'm leaning towards fire arrows for the stage control and close-mid game protection it offers from dash and rolls. Hero's bow is of course still great for longer range projectile games, but I feel Toon Link is best played more agressive and less spammy in Smash4.

Side
1 Boomerang
2 Floating Boomerang
3 High-Speed Boomerang
Default is best imo. It offers the most upfront damage when on target, and seems to have the most hitstun. I find the sharper angles are more unpredictable while floating is generally going to be horizontal.
floating does have the advantage of dealing 4% on return hit and disappearing, so no recatch lag.

Up
1 Spin Attack
2 Sliding Spin Attack
3 Flying Spin Attack
I feel either 1 or 3 is perfectly fine. However I'm leaning towards 1 spin attack. It sweet spots the ledge easier to me, and covers some horizontal. Personal preference. 3 does have the benefit of some Oos options onto ledge.

Down
1 Bomb
2 Time Bomb
3 Short-Fuse Bomb
Regular bombs are king here. Short fuse bombs do offer more damage, but the short fuse does not allow for any bombs techs whatsoever that toon link desperately relies on. Bomb lag cancel is core for mixup, and holding a bomb itself is very important to keep your opponent wary. Short fuse is very predictable, bomb pull, insta-throw or go for some form of kamikaze. There's no other choice. It's a different playstyle but I believe normal bombs offer the best and most options by far.

 

[Deleted member]

Interested to hear why you'd put floating rang over default rang.

Since the floating boomerang sticks around and follows you longer it can be very helpful for hitting the opponent when they're comboing you or you're otherwise in trouble. Even better if the opponent is inexperienced with TL's custom moves and doesn't expect the boomerang to stick around as long as it does. I can't say I've had the normal boomerang do the same nearly as often.

 

[Bighands-Senpai]

By "guard" you seem to mean block, but that doesn't really bother Sonic. Like I said, you can jump cancel the move over a very huge window up until about the moment you hit the ground (so after you hit their shield you can still jump cancel), and even if not, it passes through shields with lots of movement control remaining for Sonic after that point. Unless Sonic makes a technical mistake by hitting the very front of a shield and then just doesn't jump cancel for some reason, no character (including Yoshi or Fox) can punish it on block which means blocking it isn't really a deterrence at all to Sonic using it. Normal Spin Dash has similar mechanics so it too is pretty much always safe on block, but the normal Spin Dash moves at a low angle most characters can easily challenge by attacking. Normal Spin Dash itself also doesn't do as much on hit, just combo into other quick options, while Hammer Spin Dash combos into literally Sonic's entire moveset except at very low percent of course, but since you can jump cancel it immediately after hitting, it's the highest frame advantage grounding move in the game. Hammer Spin Dash's high angle is extremely hard to beat with attacks for most of the cast if Sonic uses it intelligently; you have to hit at a really high angle but not straight up which is not exactly the easiest attacking angle in the world to cover especially since the move has surprisingly not awful priority to boot, and Sonic can toy with his spacing to alter the very particular direction you have to try to protect which makes life even harder for Sonic's foes. It's not about being confusing; it's about what angles characters can cover well versus poorly and how most of the cast just finds Hammer Spin Dash hard to stop.

In terms of ease of use, we have to clarify a few points. One is that I believe it's way more service to teach players what options will let them learn and grow best, not what options may or may not pay off more if they really don't know what they're doing. Just like I wouldn't tell anyone to use Effortless Blade on Marth, I wouldn't tell anyone to use any custom special that's main point is ease of use. The other major point is that you have to look at the context of Sonic. Sonic is a highly technical high reward character. He's so blatantly top tier, but his speed is very hard to control while he also demands a high degree of precision. Everyone who wants an easy secondary speed character will pick Greninja or Sheik; we can expect anyone picking Sonic to be prepared to put some hours in and to expect a huge pay-off afterwards so here it's more about pointing them where to start on that road. On that point, things like dealing with projectiles are just... not problems for Sonic. Sonic runs faster than just about any projectile moves, and with a powerful move like Hammer Spin Dash that leaps over projectiles and punishes with a grounding effect, Sonic is the character you pick to shut projectile gameplay down not worry about it. Sonic isn't really frail; he has average weight, and he has a very good recovery with either viable up special (and amazingly, Hammer Spin Dash is a very useful recovery move too!). Sonic's up smash is actually a good kill move too and many of Sonic's moves do high damage so Sonic often wins in the trading hits game. Sonic has just so much crazy stuff going for him and so few downsides. What an incredible character.

I can frame Double Spring's usefulness in this basic match situation. You've just jump canceled your side special in some neutral situation. This happens a lot. You want to move up higher for whatever likely practical reason, but you can't just jump since the jump cancel consumed your double jump. You need to up special. Default isn't terrible here since it will hurl you somewhere probably safe, but the lower Double Spring lets you keep pressure up while still having another jump left if you need it and also the option to be further obstructive with a second spring. Off-stage, Sonic should probably mostly be relying on bair for gimps anyway (Sonic's movement is great and bair is a very good aerial; you can challenge them off-stage); the weaker spring isn't a big deal to me especially since if I do want to use springs I have the option of covering twice as much space at least. Yes, default is overall a better recovery but it's purely diagonal. If you space your Double Springs really wide it's actually a better horizontal recovery than default, and if you need to go straight up and burn both Double Springs at the same time it's about the same. The only problem is if you're specifically really far at a low angle (that bottom corner) which isn't a very common situation really but I suppose does happen sometimes. So off-stage Double Spring is a small downgrade for Sonic, but on-stage which is a place Sonic will up special an awful lot if not even more often, it's about whether you want more versatile movement in the neutral game as provided by Double Spring or whether you want the stronger juggle chases from default both of which are highly compelling. I don't think Double Spring is obviously correct like Hammer Spin Dash is so I wouldn't tell a Sonic not to pick default, but I think it's a strongly viable option that any Sonic has to very carefully consider since it's a major shift to his basic gameplan with significant pros and cons. There are also really hilarious niche cases too like Sonic using Double Spring to bait counters from Shulk (it just looks hilarious when it works but actually is very helpful) with the main point there being that I'm sure these exist on both sides so it's more reason that Sonic players should really learn both.

Sorry to carry on so much about Sonic and the importance of these two moves. I just think this character is destined for top tier so he's one of the characters people really need to know about, and I think Hammer Spin Dash is hugely important to pushing Sonic as far as he can go and is honestly a strong contender for the best move in the game (it's certainly the best offensive move and is staring down Timber Counter's incredible defensive prowess for best overall). Up special I feel strongly is a huge choice as well warranting very major consideration, and I'm not really convinced what Sonic picks for the other two makes much of a difference so I'm not worried about those moves.

You sir have changed my mind about Hammer Dash. My problem with it during my practice was that characters (particularly Yoshi) were able to block the thing rather easily and follow up with really damaging aerials. However, I've been testing the move once again and I think it's a solid green alongside the standard one; like in the case of Stomp v.s Surprise Attack, it depends on how aggro and risky you like to play Sonic.

As for the Double Jump, I don't think it's terrible anymore either but it's still down in yellow to me; again, the default simply offers more options for everything: already excellent height, enough horizontal movement to recover, better edgeguard, nice followups, and the Double Jump itself can lend to some terrible ****-ups if you mistimed the springs. And yes, the Shulk counter thing is hilarious but tbh Sonic can bait most counters with just about any move he has. He's just too fast for the counters to properly register the hit. Nothing more rewarding for the soul like side b-baiting Lucina and punishing with bair :D

imo i'd leave his custom moveset as follows:



Neutral B:

Homing Attack
Stomp
Surprise Attack

Side B:

Spin Dash
Hammer Spin Dash
Burning Spin Dash

Up B:

Spring Jump
Double Spring Jump
Spring Headbutt
Down B:

Spin Charge
Auto-Spin Charge
Gravitational Charge

 

[popsofctown]

I get cloudflare blanks when I try to update, but i can still view other threads. Not sure if this post will post.

EDIT: Does editting other posts work?

 

[popsofctown]

Is there a character limit on posts I'm unaware of that is causing this issue?


Well, anyhow, I usually update and then make comments, but I'll make a couple comments now:

I've played Bowser a bit. Fire Roar is definitely useless. I think Fire Shot is as good as Fire Breath if not better, because it can get opponents to approach you and let you play defense. Using Fire breath in neutral gives me lackluster results, but short hop retreating fire shot will get mostly shielded and only deal 4% but will convince the other guy to approach.

Dashing command grabs and dashing super armor attacks are really good, so I don't think side B1 can compete with that. On FD you're getting only a slight improvement on how fast you can kill versus backthrow.
Up B2 bowsercides a lot easier, and two stock is a pretty popular tournament format right now, so about half the time that counts as a kill move.
Side B1 is really stupid with platforms though. It depends a lot on what kind of stagelists people are gonna run. At my last tournament I had to strike Prism Tower and suffer Battlefield against Bowser.

Sliding Fortress seems like a purple to me. There's no downside. 5% damage difference, yeah, but only if you hit with every single hit, which won't be the case if you don't hit with the first hitbox, or your opponent spotdodges it, or your opponent smash DIs.
Sliding Fortress has such great horizontal movement that reduces your opponents safe-on-block list, you can up B out of shield and slide far enough to undo the shieldpush on an aerial and get all the way to your opponent before they've recovered. It's also safer when used in a scenario where you're not sure it will connect, because if you miss you can drift it all the way across the stage and either be free and clear or only suffer a dash attack punishment. It's reminiscent of a certain other rotational move that allows its user to move a great distance during its performance.
I can't see any perceptible loss of vertical recovery. Maybe they forgot to reduce the vertical you get from mashing B for sliding fortress, maybe there's a little bit less that I'm missing, but it's not a concern.

Hammer Spin Dash stays purple, Double Spring Jump stays red, for now. Most of the uses for double spring jump sound pretty advanced and don't need to be learned from the getgo. It's not like whenever you fight character's XYZ you definitely need to slot Double Spring Jump.

 

[Bighands-Senpai]

Is there a character limit on posts I'm unaware of that is causing this issue?

Hammer Spin Dash stays purple, Double Spring Jump stays red, for now. Most of the uses for double spring jump sound pretty advanced and don't need to be learned from the getgo. It's not like whenever you fight character's XYZ you definitely need to slot Double Spring Jump.

I insist that I'd place both Hammer and standard side b as green. Hammer is for people that like to be super aggro from the very beginning while standard is for people that wait for openings before they can perform their combos. They are both super viable in their own way; it's up to the player and how they accommodate using Sonic.

 

[Ranias]

Cool haha. I didn't expect alot of my analysis to be correct. I mostly just wanted to start Bowser custom discussion.

I think Fire Shot is as good as Fire Breath if not better, because it can get opponents to approach you and let you play defense. Using Fire breath in neutral gives me lackluster results, but short hop retreating fire shot will get mostly shielded and only deal 4% but will convince the other guy to approach.

I can agree they are both viable. I don't personally like Fire Shot as much though since I feel like I can't net as much damage off of it, and I can't override stale moves as fast with it.

Dashing command grabs and dashing super armor attacks are really good, so I don't think side B1 can compete with that. On FD you're getting only a slight improvement on how fast you can kill versus backthrow.
Up B2 bowsercides a lot easier, and two stock is a pretty popular tournament format right now, so about half the time that counts as a kill move.
Side B1 is really stupid with platforms though. It depends a lot on what kind of stagelists people are gonna run. At my last tournament I had to strike Prism Tower and suffer Battlefield against Bowser.

I guess Flying Slam can be dropped down to yellow then. Maybe Dash Slash to red since Bowsercide is so potent.

Sliding Fortress seems like a purple to me. There's no downside. 5% damage difference, yeah, but only if you hit with every single hit, which won't be the case if you don't hit with the first hitbox, or your opponent spotdodges it, or your opponent smash DIs.
Sliding Fortress has such great horizontal movement that reduces your opponents safe-on-block list, you can up B out of shield and slide far enough to undo the shieldpush on an aerial and get all the way to your opponent before they've recovered. It's also safer when used in a scenario where you're not sure it will connect, because if you miss you can drift it all the way across the stage and either be free and clear or only suffer a dash attack punishment. It's reminiscent of a certain other rotational move that allows its user to move a great distance during its performance.
I can't see any perceptible loss of vertical recovery. Maybe they forgot to reduce the vertical you get from mashing B for sliding fortress, maybe there's a little bit less that I'm missing, but it's not a concern.

Follow-up potential is better with Whirling Fortress than Sliding Fortress because it has a bit less endlag and your opponent doesn't get launched as far and only at the end of the attack. I think Whirling Fortress is better for approaching, especially when approaching via dodge cancel. Sliding Fortress is better than Whirling Fortress for escaping and recovering though.

 

[popsofctown]

Well, everything stays the way it is as long as the site refuses to cooperate with me :/

Whirling Fortress doesn't generate frame advantage, it just perhaps puts your opponents at a distance that is desirable to you. I don't think you can value that at more than like 1%

 

[TTTTTsd]

I wouldn't put Dash Slash down to red with Bows. It's pretty potent distance wise, STILL has no lag, has ARMOR, and is better on longer stages like FD IMO where you can't juke with Side-B 2 in closer quarters all the time. Plus it can be done multiple times in the air and is good for recovery (as is Side-B 2). I'd make em both Green or both Yellow (Side-B 2 and Side-B 3), only because it's really dependent on both stage and character.

 

[FullMoon]

About Greninja, I think Hydro Pump should be green, considering it's probably going to be most useful one due to how fast it is. High-Capacity Pump is great for recovery, but it does leave you more vulnerable due to being slower and is also less versatile than regular Hydro Pump because of that, so it stays yellow.

I do not agree with Shadow Dash being better, because you don't use Shadow Sneak to approach. The shadow IS really obvious, no doubt about it, but you're mostly going to use Shadow Sneak as a way to punish the opponent after baiting a move, you're not even going to make the shadow move much, you're just going to instantly use it and strike in that spot to cause some damage. You can't really punish much with Shadow Dash due to the fixed distance making you go away from the opponent at close range and if you try you're likely going to miss and end up being punished for it.

I still insist Shadow Sneak should be green while the other two should be yellow. Shadow Sneak is just too versatile with what you can do with it, it's not like you're going to use Shadow Dash much for approach either considering if you miss you're going to be punished and it doesn't even go that far anyway. Also, don't quote me on this but cancelling d-air with Shadow Sneak is so you can bait the opponent into coming at you to punish the miss, just to be hit by the follow-up, while I don't think Shadow Dash can do that because it makes you go further away from the opponent.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Red means you shouldn't really use the move. Never say never but never use this move. Some red moves see some use, but only from experts in the character with specific matchup knowledge.


Neutral
1 Warlock Punch
2 Warlock Blade
3 Warlock Thrust

Side
1 Flame Choke
2 Flame Wave
3 Flame Chain

Up
1 Dark Dive
2 Dark Fists
3 Dark Vault

Down
1 Wizard's Foot
2 Wizard's Dropkick
3 Wizard's Assault

Okay. Woah woah woah.

All of those in red are not unusable. And WDK, in purple, isn't the ultimate choice to go to at all times.

@HeavyLobster Easy on the rankings. Much of what you've put up is not right.