Suggested Custom Specials for every character

[Goesasu]

Power Vision's drawback is that all Visions lose frames over time, but Power Vision loses at least twice as quick.

Thank you.

It has a stronger staling effect.
This is why Vision is still relevant and not Red. If you are counter-reading on a generous level, then you'll want vision because it will stale slower. Power vision does wreck but its basically that pocket-once-in-a-while move. Vision is for when you want to be constantly punitive of heavy aggression.

Thats exactly how i felt about it.

To me, regular vision does the trick well enough cause i can counter a lot and it already has absurd killing power.

Power vision is better if you can perfect counter all the time. But in my experience, no matter how good you are, thats its not going to happen all the time.

Thats why i think regular vision is not outclassed by power vision and still its up to player preference.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Big Mechakoopa

i personally think all mKoopas are Green, since they have very different applications. though the other custom is red if you have piercing Cannon ball...

 

[BBC7]

Neutral B:

1. Metal Blade[powerful Z-dropping capabilities, can combo into U-Tilt, fastest Neutral B(eyeballed), does 10% when thrown against most characters]
2. Hyper Bomb(does 8% consistently, thrown at an arch which means you can cover straight with pellets, powerful Z-dropping capabilities, it is slow)
3. Shadow Blade(does 4% if both hits connect and tied with MB for speed, although the second hit can be shielded or jumped out of even if the first hit connects, second hit can combo into anything though, would only recommend against specific characters)

Side B:

1. Crash Bomber(good mindgames, longest range projectile and does 8%, explodes on contact with Luma making the Rosalina match-up easier and forces shield)
2. Danger Wrap(17%, but the range is mostly vertical. good for anti-air and there is a glitch that makes it do 34% sometimes)
3. Ice Slasher(4% only and the freeze does not help much in terms of setting up attacks)


Up B:

1. Rush Coil(hitstun cancelling renders the other options mostly useless)
2. Tornado Hold(does 6% but sacrifices horizontal recovery and hitstun cancel)
3. Beat(gives the most vertical and horizontal recovery but cannot hitstun cancel, only useful in select match-ups where true combos aren't an issue)

Down B:

1. Plant Barrier(3% per petal, 5% when thrown, has less range than LS, still has leaf shielding shenanigans)
2. Leaf Shield(2% per leaf, 4% when thrown, leaf shielding shenanigans)
3. Skull Barrier(pellets already handle most projectiles and if they can't, chances are the Skull Barrier doesn't have a chance either)

Whether Leaf Shield or Plant Barrier is better is debatable, same goes for DW/IS and HB/SB to an extent.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Neutral B
1. Megavitamins - Decent bounce, can be optimal for forcing certain chars to approach due to their angle, likely better on battlefield because they can bounce and hit people on platforms.
2. Fast Capsule - Oh lawdy this is perfect. Lagless much like a fast fireball, can force an approach against certain chars who can't outcamp it, basically a mini-laser that compliments how Doc plays. Megavitamins may be more favorable in certain MUs but this is very good.
3. Mega Capsule - This just...doesn't mesh. It kind of works more with Mario due to his mobility but Doc is really slow and he's basically meant to be more defensive. This is the last thing that's gonna really work with how he should approach or defend.

Side B
1. Super Sheet - Didn't mark this as red because it has decent utility on its own. It's a cape without any form of stall, but it does reflect projectiles and it lets you short-hop, reflect, and move forward really smoothly. It's alright.
2. Shocking Sheet - Marked in yellow as unlike Mario's, this doesn't remove the stall, since the stall was never there. This is an acceptable alternative if you're really desperate, I might change my opinion on this down the road but it's just a damage cape for Doc with no real trade off on how his normal Side-B works.
3. Breezy Sheet - While not incredibly applicable anyways, this is the best of the three. If you can gimp with this, you're golden. It's got decent windbox potential and can gimp vertical recoveries cause let's face it, no stall makes horizontal gimping a wishful thought.

Up B
1. Super Jump Punch - Amazing OoS option that can kill at decent percents. Its only issue is that it has really, REALLY bad distance, but there's another custom move that amends this issue a bit and lets you keep this one.
2. Super Jump - Good if you want to keep Doc Tornado as it might help in some MUs (keyword: Might!). Trades hitbox for distance and I think the distance is about as good as Mario's. It's alright if you really need it but I can't recommend it at all times.
3. Ol' One Two - Please don't use this. Doc's aerial kill potential and damage in the air is already acceptable, this is certainly not required. His normal Up+B already had bad enough distance, and this doesn't really add killing power that he lacked.

Down B
1. Dr. Tornado - Actually a good move! Can punish spotdodges, rolls, I hear it outrights beats certain moves and it comes out fairly quick with DECENT priority. Sometimes you may need to use this move, so if you opt for this be sure to equip Doc with the Super Jump if you absolutely need the extra recovery. This is...okay.
2. Soaring Tornado - My go to if I'm running a custom set with Doc. Incredible vertical momentum boost, pushes away opponents while he spins, really really helpful. Doc's horizontal recovery isn't awful, and this amends a big issue he had. His vertical distance is lacking without this move, it's honestly my recommended if you can live without the Doc Tornado.
3. Clothesline Tornado - I can't see this working. It's too slow, situational, and really clunky. If you wanna try it, maybe prove me wrong, I'd be more than willing to accept it, but as is, it doesn't compliment him too well.

Personally I think Doc with the proper customs really can make better use of his higher damage and more defense oriented playstyle, these are just my personal recommendations, I'd love other opinions!

 

[Doval]

Mega Man:

Neutral:
Metal Blade
Shadow Blade
Hyper Bomb

Metal Blade does better damage and can be grabbed as an item, but Shadow Blade can't be grabbed by the enemy and comes back. That makes Shadow Blade better at controlling the space directly in front of you, since enemies can't easily roll past it. Shadow Blade combos into itself if it hits past half its range and sets up free grabs, slides, or dash attacks. Hyper Bomb is kind of like a poor version of Yoshi's Egg Throw. I haven't seen any compelling reason to choose it.

Side:
Crash Bomb
Ice Slasher
Danger Wrap

Crash Bomb gives you mind games but enemies that know the matchup well will track the duration and not give you a chance to capitalize on it. The fact that it doesn't stun enemies immediately makes it unsafe up close. Ice Slasher does less damage but gives you instant results, making it safer, and pops enemies into the air, where you have the advantage. Danger Wrap might be useful against specific characters for controlling air space, but Mega Man already has good anti air options and you lose the synergy of alternating Standard Special with Side Special.

Up:
Rush Coil
Tornado Hold
Beat

Rush Coil is fast, has great invincibility, gets you out of combos and can be used as a height boost for edgeguarding. Tornado Hold gives you an out of shield option that does damage but Mega Man already has great options with Up Smash and Back Air, and Down Tilt. Beat's too slow, leaves you vulnerable when recovering.

Down:
Leaf Shield
Skull Barrier
Plant Barrier

Plant Barrier is a poorer version of Leaf Shield. It's even slower to activate and the fact that the petals don't go away when they hit something doesn't afford any additional protection. Skull Barrier activates quickly enough to be a useful reflector, which helps certain matchups, but is dead weight against non-projectile characters, making Leaf Shield the better default.

 

[san.]

Neutral
2 Tempest: Close to being purple because of its uniqueness and the variety of uses it has that gives it an edge. A powerful, lingering, spammable windbox that lifts Ike in the air changes how one should handle him. Super armor is still attained at 3/4s to fully charged, and lasts long enough to go through air dodges. Hit someone with an uncharged attack and they're launched quite far all by itself. You can freely use it on or offstage without much risk. Even for characters whose recoveries aren't in danger, it launches them diagonally in the sky for further punishes. You can get 2-4 offstage easily, and it's interchangeable with aerials.
3 Furious Eruption: It has a large, long-lasting hitbox that grows even larger the more it's charged. It has somewhat low knockback unless you give it enough time to charge. Despite that, it's a great edgeguard when you do not feel like committing to jumping offstage. Only invincible upB sweetspots and long range teleports can hope to get past it consecutively, but it can also cover any ledge option.
1 Eruption: It has a decent hitbox size, but the lack of lingering hitboxes when compared to the alternatives makes this a third choice. The damage builds fast when charging, so it's great against already-poor recoveries that can't sweetspot easily.
Side
2 Close Combat: Beats or trades with almost every attack out there while being a great punisher itself. While it moves, it's faster than the default quick draw. There is more endlag than the default, but there are some lingering hitboxes when used on the ground that makes it around the same. It doesn't carry your momentum like the default, so it's not as great when used in the air. It either pops your opponent up if you hit during the middle of it, or slightly behind you at the end. It can be punished out of shield, but the fact that it's chargeable makes it noncommittal.
1 Quick Draw: It's a little easier as a recovery tool and it carries your momentum well. The hit detection to trigger the slash is still poor and laggy, even if it's less than Brawl. This is a good choice if your opponent can get around your close combat.
3 Unyielding Blade: It has super armor, but it just doesn't deal enough damage to be worth it. You need to charge it for a long time before it can deal decent damage. This can be used as niche super armor punishes, though you'll probably lose out on the damage trade each time.
Up
2 Aether Drive: Best overall recovery and damage, but the vertical range is underwhelming compared to the others outside of stages with walls under the edges. 27% if you can get all of the hits is quite good and you can combo into it from a throw at low percents. You can't go low very easily with this, preventing purple status.
1 Aether: Great vertical recovery and a decent hard punish. Allows you to recover in a slightly different way and go deep vertically for edgeguards. It can be reversed somewhat well since it drags opponents inside.
3 Aether Wave: A faster and slightly shorter aether with longer range on the initial hitbox and doesn't really combo, but it launches a piercing and shield damaging projectile that counts as a physical attack. Take this for the shield damage and swiftness. Decent against the very light characters since they don't get combod by aether easily.
Down
2 Paralyzing Counter: Difficult to hit, but guarantees a smash attack at higher percents and a grab at lower percents. Situational, but worth the reward when it hits.
1 Counter: Basic counter. Reliable when you need it. A tad too slow to use it against juggling. Misses a lot when used against attacks below you, but it has great horizontal reach.
3 Smash Counter: It punishes smash attacks heavily, but I feel it doesn't deal enough knockback to be worth it since it's slow and misses often. It can also be punished after the invincibility. It's decent vs. heavy hitters, though, but smart ones will still get around this without much issue.

 

[zephyrnereus]

I'mma throw in my 2 cents, since there's nothing here on my main.

oh, and before I go on with my post, it might be a good idea to link to the details of the people who post, that way people will be able to read why a move is good or bad and not just guess from the color.


Moveset

1 Robo Beam
2 Wide-Angle Beam
3 Infinite Robo Beam

1 Arm Rotor
2 Reflector Arm
3 Backward Arm Rotor

1 Robo Burner
2 Robo Rocket
3 High-Speed Burner

1 Gyro
2 Fire Gyro
3 Slip Gyro

Neutral Special:

1 Robo Beam: this is your bread & butter when it comes to booping like a robot. pierces through enemies and has a decent angle while dealing a good amount of damage.

2 Wide-Angle Beam: by what I've seen, the only main difference between this and the standard is the damage sacrifice for angle output and speed. its downright ridiculous! a bit harder to control, but once you get it, you can literally stare down at your opponents to keep them from returning to the stage.

3 Infinite Robo Beam: personally the worst of the three. this is basically a shorter and slower version of the falco laser but with the ability to angle it. it has the same angle as the standard and a slightly longer startup time, but you can always shoot it (and considering the other two lasers have a 2 second charge between empty and lvl 1 laser, it's not that bad of a tradeoff.) still, it has the range of roughly 2/3rd of FD. damage is as bad as the wide angle variant and it loses its piercing ability.

Side Special:

1 Arm Rotor: it got a great buff from its brawl counterpart, so now it's a viable move! it has a multihit spin followed by a huge uppercut with great knockback. it also has a small reflector hitbox at the beginning of the move to catch projectile users off guard. and to top it all off, you can move during the entire duration of the move just in case they try to vector away.

2 Reflector Arm: lose the movement to make your spinning arms into a full reflector! definitely a great counter against faster projectile users because it has a shorter startup lag than the standard. in the air, it causes you to hover for a moment before slowly falling down. it's actually a very good edgeguarding tool, completely nullifying tethers, and due to its constant knockback and hitstun, its very hard to recover from this attack form below.

3 Backward Arm Rotor: I honestly can't find anything good about this move... horrible reflector, horrible damage, and horrible lag. it flips people over like a mario cape, but since it also hits, it only ends up helping enemies recover by refreshing their up specials. unless someone finds a crazy good use for this, its best to avoid it.

Up Special:

1 Robo Burner: your standard flying booster. its a bit slow and clunky in the air, but you can act out of it at any time to attack. it's a very good recovery, though if you don't mix it up with attacks you will be very predictable. not to mention that you need to be on the ground for a few seconds before you can replenish your robo-fuel.

2 Robo Rocket: you only get one super boost. the vertical distance is great and it actually has a secret weapon installed in it. the moment you launch, your robo body becomes a meteor smash! it's great to catch people off guard and get a very early kill, but smart people will try to footstool you. its greatest downside is the fact that it still works on a fuel system, so getting hit mid-flight will not refresh your move, causing you to lose a stock most of the time. not only that but you can't act out of it until the move is done. a very high risk considering that ROB can tank so well due to its weight and the ability to fly back from what could have been death for most other characters. it might be good against certain matchups, but its a huge sacrifice compared to the other two.

3 High-Speed Burner: this is exactly the same as the standard, though you sacrifice the amount you can stay in the air, for insanely good horizontal and vertical mobility! this is very similar to the brawl version, but with less fuel. honestly, between this and the standard is just preference.

Down Special:

1 Gyro: your standard non-edible spinning toy that can destroy opponents if used correctly. use it as a projectile, a trap set up, a decoy, and extra hitbox, even as a shield from projectiles! the difference between a good ROB and a great ROB is how they use their gyro in battle.

2 Fire Gyro: the launch from the move is much shorter and its lifespan on the field as it spins is smaller, but it's great for racking up damage. the only problem is that the launch also has longer end lag. its way better as a throwable item though.

3 Slip Gyro: the weakest of the three when it comes to power, but this gyro is even more slippery than diddy's bananas! the fact that it does not disappear when touched makes it a dangerous weapon for characters that prefer to run on the stage. once it has done its job of tripping, you can pick it up and throw is as a regular gyro for slightly less damage. the way it shoots out is also pretty interesting, sliding on the ground and able to dodge some attacks or projectiles to slide under the opponent and trip them. the distance is shorter than the standard but longer than the fire on the ground, and virtually the same as the standard in the air. endlag on the move is also the same as the standard. Sakurai sheds a tear of joy every time someone trips on a gyro.

 

[Ranias]

I might be missing key points as I don't use customs a whole lot, but here's my take on Ness's customs.

Neutral:
1 PK Flash - This move sometimes allows for edgeguarding and mindgames.
2 Rising PK Flash - Not as controllable as normal PK Flash. Too situational to be very useful.
3 PK Freeze - Landing a KOing PK Flash is better than a PK Freeze.

Side:
1 PK Fire - This is the fastest Side B option. Can lead into bread-and-butter combos. Gets angled downwards in the air.
2 PK Bonfire - Long endlag, short range, and can only do good damage against people that don't DI.
3 PK Fire Burst - This move comes out a bit slower and has noticeably longer endlag, so it is easier to punish. However, this move can do full damage regardless of DI and shoots horizontally in the air.

Up:
1 PK Thunder - This move is so good now. You can juggle, do tail shenanigans, and kill people really early with PKT2.
2 Lasting PK Thunder - This move might work for old Lucas mains, but it feels weaker than the normal PK Thunder to me.
3 Rolling PK Thunder - More damaging but really slow. It also makes your recovery shorter.

Down:
1 PSI Magnet - Heals for the most (about 1.6x) and has shortest endlag. Can only heal up to 30% per absorption.
2 PSI Vacuum - Removes absorb and instead sucks in opponents and explodes on release for 5% if far away or 10% if close. Useful if there is nothing to absorb, otherwise you shouldn't choose this.
3 Forward PSI Magnet - Heals for less (about 1.3x) and has slightly longer endlag. Can deal damage when released. Can only heal up to 30% per absorption. Can absorb from behind if the projectile hits the magnet before it hits Ness.

EDIT: Added endlag comments on PSI Magnet and Forward PSI Magnet. Changed color of comments to white.
EDIT2: Remade Down Specials section. I was wrong about healing multipliers.
EDIT3: Made PSI Vacuum viable based on Comorant's input. Bumped up PK Fire to green. Might as well change things here as long as the first post can't be edited.

 

[warriorman222]

Downs and Sides:
Koopa Dash: Green means above average. This is above average in comparison. So it clearly is a good idea to use it, right? Yes. Just wait, enjoy your fast move. Between this and Drift, it depends of preference. In the way that power Vision is better, but Vision more consistent, this is the more noobish but still good option.

Grounding Dash: Back Up, then dash, like Wind-up Raptor Boost, but better in general, and worse in comparison to the other options. Not horrible, but with the competetion it has, i can only say two words: pls no. Not unless you really need the Power

Koopa Drift Holy crap, this thing is good. Speed lower negated by spinning immediately(goes far, hits mutiple times and rises a bit), Multi-hit, and just outclasses Koopa Dash in consistency, damage, and distance(using the above method). Then again, if you don't know this, Koopa Drift is now Green. It would seem like a slower version. but i'm not very competetive, and i know this. it honestly isn't that hard to figure out. So for now it will be green.


MechaKoopa: Strictly inferior to Mechakoopa. A longer throw doesn't matter. Also detonation on touch may prevent the explosion from connecting. May be better in some MUs, but not most.

Big Koopa: Namco sucks at balancing Nintendo characters. You could look at Gust Cape, but we're at Jr now. This is Jr's mechanical proof of fake balance. so it doesn't hit people. In return, we give you more damage, better hitbox, easier to grab because slower, and shorter fuse. All of these good in their own ways, just try the move out, auto-detonation isn't even a good thing. It gives small characters a chance of taking 2%, rather than being blown up. And if you are really to lazy to grab this, you'll have to use the obviously inferior Impatient Koopa.

Impatient Koopa: goes the same distance all the time. shorter fuse at the worst possible time, less damage, no actual effect. pls no.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'm kind of wondering why Mario's Scalding F.L.U.D.D. would be considered useless. It's the only F.L.U.D.D. variant that actually deals damage, though I guess it's not exactly a heavy-hitting attack, and is more meant for building up damage.

 

[Comorant]

3 Forward PSI Magnet - Strictly better than PSI Magnet. Heals for the same amount, can absorb from behind, and can do damage on release.

Gonna just step in and correct a few things here. Forward PSI Magnet actually heals less than normal PSI Magnet. In fact I'm pretty sure Forward PSI Magnet doesn't multiplying healing. Also it only absorbs from behind if you've been holding your Magnet down. I wouldn't quite put it at a Purple just yet.

 

[warriorman222]

I'm kind of wondering why Mario's Scalding F.L.U.D.D. would be considered useless. It's the only F.L.U.D.D. variant that actually deals damage, though I guess it's not exactly a heavy-hitting attack, and is more meant for building up damage.

8% in very short range. Just use CQC. It's actually the worst of the 3, and i have Mario as a secondary, so i may not be justified. Look at the range and tell me it's worth 8%. Also Fire effects is supposed to matter, so it's even worse. Vs High PRessure FLUDD with the Giant Punch charge, but guarantees any Mario with Gust Cape can gimp everyone, including Villager. And without, you still gimp a lot of the cast. Plus High Pressure makes the others red by being purple, the extra range and power is just 2 gud.

 

[Ranias]

Gonna just step in and correct a few things here. Forward PSI Magnet actually heals less than normal PSI Magnet. In fact I'm pretty sure Forward PSI Magnet doesn't multiplying healing. Also it only absorbs from behind if you've been holding your Magnet down. I wouldn't quite put it at a Purple just yet.

How did you come to that conclusion? I thought I heard that they both do the same amount of healing somewhere before, but just to make sure, I just tested both the PSI Magnets in training. I went to 100% and laid down a Motion-Sensor Bomb.

Motion Sensor Bomb deals 25% damage. Both PSI Magnets heal for 30% damage. Thus both PSI Magnets have a 1.2x multiplier of healing.

Okay, also on further analysis, Forward PSI Magnet has a bit longer endlag, but if you manage to heal with it you can roll cancel and get no lag instead.

EDIT: Added comment on Forward PSI Magnet endlag.

 

[warriorman222]

How did you come to that conclusion? I thought I heard that they both do the same amount of healing somewhere before, but just to make sure, I just tested both the PSI Magnets in training. I went to 100% and laid down a Motion-Sensor Bomb.

Motion Sensor Bomb deals 25% damage. Both PSI Magnets heal for 30% damage. Thus both PSI Magnets have a 1.2x multiplier of healing.

Wow they were nerfed like hell... Ness Magnet used to 1.6%, Lucas's 2.5%.

 

[Ranias]

Wow they were nerfed like hell... Ness Magnet used to 1.6%, Lucas's 2.5%.

They can absorb explosions now too though.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

How did you come to that conclusion? I thought I heard that they both do the same amount of healing somewhere before, but just to make sure, I just tested both the PSI Magnets in training. I went to 100% and laid down a Motion-Sensor Bomb.

Motion Sensor Bomb deals 25% damage. Both PSI Magnets heal for 30% damage. Thus both PSI Magnets have a 1.2x multiplier of healing.

Okay, also on further analysis, Forward PSI Magnet has a bit longer endlag, but if you manage to heal with it you can roll cancel and get no lag instead.

EDIT: Added comment on Forward PSI Magnet endlag.

I'd run another set of experiments on something low-damage like Mario's Fireball. IIRC there's an upper limit to how much Magnet can heal per hit and it's possible both versions are running into it.

 

[popsofctown]

Woo, lots of copy and paste to work on.

I think I'm gonna water down Megaman's custom specials because they are so apples and orangey and it just seems especially highly probable that playstyle will factor in. The main thing will be to point out to the first time Megaman that they should rush cancel, lots and lots.

 

[Djent]

(Second opinion b/c I'm bored):


1 Autoreticle - Mediocre and rarely hits, but it's our only projectile so it's worth using I guess.
2 Explosive Flame - Laggy as balls and awkward to follow up on, but the last hit ignores shields. That's...something?
3 Heavenly Light - ****.


1 Reflect Barrier - Probably useful in some matchups, but we've already got good anti-projectile moves (DA, BAir).
2 Angelic Missile - lolno.
3 Super Speed - Could easily break the game if not on a timer. Allows for a bull**** number of follow-ups. It's one of the best customs PERIOD.


1 Warp - A very safe recovery option; easily her safest and most consistent. Also has some neat cancel properties.
2 Jump Glide - A solid approach option when attacked out of; decent recovery (just be sure to double jump first if you need height).
3 Rocket Jump - Poor recovery, but Super Speed + Lightweight make up for it somewhat. Can be combo'd out of Super Speed and Jab (two staple moves) for early kills.


1 Counter - It's a good counter. There's a neat way of sliding with it that looks semi-useful.
2 Lightweight - It allows not only for better approaches and punishes, but also allows us to modify our follow-up ability as opponent % and rage dictate. I'd make this purple if it didn't come with an obnoxious cooldown.
3 Celestial Fireworks - It's cool in principle, but I've been struggling to find as many uses for this move than the other two options. Too bad too...it looked great at first.

 

[Doval]

Woo, lots of copy and paste to work on.

I think I'm gonna water down Megaman's custom specials because they are so apples and orangey and it just seems especially highly probable that playstyle will factor in. The main thing will be to point out to the first time Megaman that they should rush cancel, lots and lots.

Yeah, Mega Man is tough because he's a lot like Palutena and Miis - instead of variations of the same move he gets completely different attacks except for the Down Bs. In my opinion the only category with a clear winner is Up B.

 

[BBC7]

Plant Barrier is a poorer version of Leaf Shield. It's even slower to activate and the fact that the petals don't go away when they hit something doesn't afford any additional protection. Skull Barrier activates quickly enough to be a useful reflector, which helps certain matchups, but is dead weight against non-projectile characters, making Leaf Shield the better default.

Is it actually slower? I always thought the only downside of Plant Barrier is that it has less range when thrown. Also, how is the fact that the petals don't disappear a bad thing? That basically means the Plant Barrier hitbox never turns smaller which is a pro in my opinion. This is quite interesting to hear.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

8% in very short range. Just use CQC. It's actually the worst of the 3, and i have Mario as a secondary, so i may not be justified. Look at the range and tell me it's worth 8%. Also Fire effects is supposed to matter, so it's even worse. Vs High PRessure FLUDD with the Giant Punch charge, but guarantees any Mario with Gust Cape can gimp everyone, including Villager. And without, you still gimp a lot of the cast. Plus High Pressure makes the others red by being purple, the extra range and power is just 2 gud.

And all this time I thought that Scalding F.L.U.D.D. would make up for F.L.U.D.D.'s very pathetic excuse for an offensive move. Boy do I feel stupid after seeing this.

 

[Doval]

Is it actually slower? I always thought the only downside of Plant Barrier is that it has less range when thrown. Also, how is the fact that the petals don't disappear a bad thing? That basically means the Plant Barrier hitbox never turns smaller which is a pro in my opinion. This is quite interesting to hear.

I haven't gotten frame data yet but I took two 3DS and used Leaf Shield and Plant Barrier at the same time, then held shield. The shield came out slightly slower on Plant Barrier. The duration seemed the same; it ended slightly later than Leaf Shield by roughly the same amount of time that it was slower to activate.

It's not that the fact that the petals disappear is a bad thing. It's just not clearly a pro; attacks can hit through either barrier with ease (except weak projectiles that disappear on impact) and the duration isn't long enough that losing leaves is an issue. So to me the slower activation kills it since Leaf Shield is already plenty slow.

 

[BBC7]

I haven't gotten frame data yet but I took two 3DS and used Leaf Shield and Plant Barrier at the same time, then held shield. The shield came out slightly slower on Plant Barrier. The duration seemed the same; it ended slightly later than Leaf Shield by roughly the same amount of time that it was slower to activate.

It's not that the fact that the petals disappear is a bad thing. It's just not clearly a pro; attacks can hit through either barrier with ease (except weak projectiles that disappear on impact) and the duration isn't long enough that losing leaves is an issue. So to me the slower activation kills it since Leaf Shield is already plenty slow.

It could've been fully possible that you just activated the Plant Barrier a little bit later and therefore, got those results. And even if you got correct results, I still fail to see how being just slightly slower makes the move completely inferior to Leaf Shield. Activation shouldn't even be an issue if you LSSH(Leaf Shield Short Hop) because LSSH makes activation of Mega Man's Down B much more safer in general by granting you aerial control as you're waiting for activation. I prefer damage over speed in this case because the damage is, in fact, more noticeable. Rolling past someone twice with PB is pretty much equal to rolling past someone thrice with LS. You do less work for more damage and I like that.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I'm kind of wondering why Mario's Scalding F.L.U.D.D. would be considered useless. It's the only F.L.U.D.D. variant that actually deals damage, though I guess it's not exactly a heavy-hitting attack, and is more meant for building up damage.

And all this time I thought that Scalding F.L.U.D.D. would make up for F.L.U.D.D.'s very pathetic excuse for an offensive move. Boy do I feel stupid after seeing this.

http://smashboards.com/threads/scalding-fludd-useless-perhaps-not.376560/#post-17915685

It is most definitely not useless, lol



Neutral Special
Fast Fireball: Travels half the distance of a FD stage in less than a second. Has minimal hitstun, but it is just enough to shut down an opponent's approach. Great for long range pokes, has very little startup and endlag, and can sometimes interrupt recoveries. Only deals 1% in most circumstances however. Slightly more useful than Fireball due to its sheer speed and ability to interrupt opponents.
Fireball: Travels slightly further than Fast Fireballs, and deals 4-5% damage. Because it is affected by gravity, this Fireball preferred for Air-to-Ground attacks. It has more hitstun, but also more startup and ending lag. It also travels slower than Fast Fireballs...not to anyone's surprise of course.
Fire Orb: Far too much startup and ending lag to really be bothered with. By the time you are able to move after throwing the fireball, this move's duration will already be 80% complete.

Side Special
Gust Cape: Easily the best Cape. Allows for Cape Stalling (which default cape can no longer do), reflects projectiles, turns opponents around, and has a windbox that pushes opponents while turning them around. All of this only at the cost of dealing 2% less damage than the normal cape.
Shocking Cape: Similar knockback and damage to an uncharged Dsmash, but sends at a higher angle and can be used in the air. You cannot Cape Stall with this, though using it does improve horizontal momentum in the air. Solid for KOing and edgeguarding, though it lacks the versatility of Gust Cape as it doesn't reflect projectiles or turns opponents around. Slightly slower than the other capes.
Cape: Completely outclassed by the other two Capes. Gust Cape does everything it does, only better.

Up Special
Explosive Jump Punch: Mario's most reliable KO move. Comes out on frame 3, first hit does 8%, second hit does 13% for a total of 21% damage. Incredible OoS move that can sometimes be used in combos. Can KO an opposing Mario at around 105% at ground level on Final Destination, though it is just as strong if used in the air too. Sacrifices recovery, startup invulnerability, and combo potential for raw power; but the tradeoff is usually more than worth it.
Super Jump Punch: Deals 12% damage max. Decent recovery, but it is great at extending/ending combos. Has startup invulnerability, and comes out on frame 1, making it an amazing OoS move.
Super Jump: Higher/further recovery at the cost of no hitbox. You lose an OoS option, a lot of combo options, and a KO move...but the additional distance is sometimes useful. Usually the other two Up Specials are better, however.

Down Special
High Pressure FLUDD: Different levels of charge mean that you have multiple uses for this FLUDD. More pushing potency at the cost of taking longer to charge, but the payout is definitely worth it. You can also quickfire this FLUDD, and the water is still powerful enough and has enough range to gimp opponents.
Scalding FLUDD: Many people are vastly underestimating the potential of this special move. In fact, it can be equally as valuable as the High Pressure FLUDD, though what determines which one is more useful is dependant on the matchup. It has the fastest charging time out of all of the FLUDDs, it has twice the range of Mario's Fsmash and can be used in the air, it can be used to stop opponents from approaching you (especially aerial approaches), it can be used to build damage (especially when edgeguarding with it against certain characters, and more. Most of the time, you would use High Pressure FLUDD instead for its gimping potential. However, in every other matchup against an opponent that you cannot gimp easily, such as Peach, Scalding FLUDD is a much better option overall. For a further analysis on this move, check out the link I posted above.
FLUDD: Doesn't take as long to charge as HP FLUDD, though it is simply outclassed by the High Pressure FLUDD by simply not being powerful enough in comparison.

8% in very short range. Just use CQC. It's actually the worst of the 3, and i have Mario as a secondary, so i may not be justified. Look at the range and tell me it's worth 8%. Also Fire effects is supposed to matter, so it's even worse. Vs High PRessure FLUDD with the Giant Punch charge, but guarantees any Mario with Gust Cape can gimp everyone, including Villager. And without, you still gimp a lot of the cast. Plus High Pressure makes the others red by being purple, the extra range and power is just 2 gud.

Very short range? Scalding FLUDD has a little bit more than twice the range of Mario's Fsmash, which is more range than any standard sword attack in the game. I don't think that really constitutes as "very short range". Even at minimum charge, it has the same exact range as Mario's Fsmash, which doesn't have the best range for an attack but it is still pretty solid.

HP FLUDD is, however, theoretically better than the Default FLUDD. For an in-depth analysis on that as well, please check out my other link:

http://smashboards.com/threads/fludd-vs-high-pressure-fludd.376120/

 

[Doval]

It could've been fully possible that you just activated the Plant Barrier a little bit later and therefore, got those results. And even if you got correct results, I still fail to see how being just slightly slower makes the move completely inferior to Leaf Shield. Activation shouldn't even be an issue if you LSSH(Leaf Shield Short Hop) because LSSH makes activation of Mega Man's Down B much more safer in general by granting you aerial control as you're waiting for activation. I prefer damage over speed in this case because the damage is, in fact, more noticeable. Rolling past someone twice with PB is pretty much equal to rolling past someone thrice with LS. You do less work for more damage and I like that.

It's not a fluke, I checked multiple times and the difference is too big to be a timing error of that kind. It's pretty easy to hit two buttons on the same frame.

Plant Barrier also has a lower hit frequency for some reason. If you grab someone you can get all 4 leaves to hit for 8% but Plant Barrier only hits 3 times for 9%. That makes the damage difference much smaller than it initially appears to be if you only consider the damage the values - closer to 12.5% than 50%.

When you factor in the other consequences of a successful Down B (e.g. getting a grab, footstool or edgehog) the difference in damage is meaningless. The raw damage of both moves is too small relative to how frequently you can apply it to be the main draw. The value of Down B is in its utility.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Alright, I did some experimenting with Dark Pit's other customs.

Electroshock Arm: Punishable, yet it's a good punish itself.
Electrocut Arm: Basically the same thing without the dash. Good luck finding a situation where this is more useful. I
Quickshock Arm: Waaaaay too much starting lag and a bit weaker, yet it's equally as punishable. It provides more recovery, but Dark Pit has good enough recovery anyway.

Impact Orbitars: It's damage isn't great, but **** knockback is surprisingly good knockback, actually. Not enough to KO, but it's excellent for edge guarding off stage, and sometimes spacing. The only real con is that you lose out on a potential reflector, which leaves you more vulnerable to characters with good projectile game, like Samus.

 

[Ranias]

I'd run another set of experiments on something low-damage like Mario's Fireball. IIRC there's an upper limit to how much Magnet can heal per hit and it's possible both versions are running into it.

Oops. Good catch. You are correct.

I just tested using Luigi's fireball and Mario's fireball in training:

Luigi's does about 6%. The normal PSI Magnet heals for about 10% and Forward PSI Magnet heals for about 8%.

Mario's does about 5%. The normal PSI Magnet heals for about 8% and Forward PSI Magnet heals for about 6%.

It's difficult to determine exact multipliers with low damage attacks, but the normal PSI Magnet does indeed heal for more than the Forward PSI Magnet.

Sorry for doubting you Comorant.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Can someone explain to me why Sonic's Hammer Spin Dash is so godly? I get more mileage out of the default.

 

[warriorman222]

Very short range? Scalding FLUDD has a little bit more than twice the range of Mario's Fsmash, which is more range than any standard sword attack in the game. I don't think that really constitutes as "very short range". Even at minimum charge, it has the same exact range as Mario's Fsmash, which doesn't have the best range for an attack but it is still pretty solid.

HP FLUDD is, however, theoretically better than the Default FLUDD. For an in-depth analysis on that as well, please check out my other link:

http://smashboards.com/threads/fludd-vs-high-pressure-fludd.376120/

Sorry. Expect me to have a tendency to over exaggerate things. Scalding FLUDD has it's uses, just to me it's not outclassed, but when you have the gimp-incarnate HP FLUDD at your disposal, why not use that? Your own thread makes HP FLUDD look so good that a SHORTER THAN NOMRAL range 8% damage thing doesn't seem worth the tradeoff. Whatever Scalding can be Yellow, but i think we can all agree FLUDD is bloodred.

 

[popsofctown]

I secretly made this thread to farm likes, but making sarcastic comments in character competitive thread is apparently more effective at that.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Sorry. Expect me to have a tendency to over exaggerate things. Scalding FLUDD has it's uses, just to me it's not outclassed, but when you have the gimp-incarnate HP FLUDD at your disposal, why not use that? Your own thread makes HP FLUDD look so good that a SHORTER THAN NOMRAL range 8% damage thing doesn't seem worth the tradeoff. Whatever Scalding can be Yellow, but i think we can all agree FLUDD is bloodred.

It really depends on the matchup actually. Most of the time you probably do want to run HP FLUDD as your primary option, though Scalding FLUDD is perfectly acceptable/usable in matchups where you won't easily be able to gimp the opponent. I also imagine Scalding FLUDD would be useful against sword characters due to Mario's overall problems against disjointed hitboxes, so Scalding FLUDD will allow him to fight back with his own disjointed hitbox. However, as most of the sword characters have pretty horrible recoveries, HP FLUDD is still probably the best option to use against them.

Preference should also be accounted for. Some people might have a hard time gimping with HP FLUDD/FLUDD due to the nature of the pushing effect's success being very dependent on how you properly time/space it, and because they are only exceptionally useful during specific points in the match and otherwise you don't get much mileage out of them (but you get a huge advantage if you are able to gimp someone with them). Scalding FLUDD on the other hand is very user-friendly. It might have the shortest range of the three but it still has very solid range for what it does. It also has the fastest charging time, and can pretty much be useful throughout the entire match. Additionally, while there are some matchups where HP FLUDD/FLUDD won't be all that effective and you would rather use Scalding FLUDD instead (against characters with amazing recoveries or very hard to gimp recoveries), Scalding FLUDD isn't really like that. Because with Scalding FLUDD, it can be useful in almost every matchup. The only problem is that it can be less rewarding in matchups against characters with bad/gimpable recoveries.

The only real reason why I would put HP FLUDD over Scalding FLUDD is because there are more recoveries that are easy to gimp as opposed to ones that aren't easy to gimp, so HP FLUDD overall is still the preferred option. Scalding FLUDD is still great though, and I equate the two FLUDDs to Mario's two Fireballs. Fast Fireball is like HP FLUDD where it is useful in more situations, but I can imagine situations where Scalding FLUDD/Default Fireball are the preferred options.

Additionally, Mario's average damage output is 8.5% per hit (accounting for every single attack/throw/smash/etc that he does), and Scalding FLUDD can do a maximum of 9% damage (10% with fresh bonus). Which isn't really that bad. It's not exactly fantastic damage, but it is decent damage nonetheless. And against some characters, you can use Scalding FLUDD against a recovering opponent to slowly roast them and rack up damage against them, while also making them more susceptible to being swatted away with a Gust Cape.


But yeah. Default FLUDD might have the most range out of all of the FLUDDs, but its ability to push opponents isn't really anything to write home about. Especially in Smash 4, where the overall potency to recover has been greatly increased by the newcomers/general mechanic changes. HP FLUDD loses 30% range, but it is still enough to pretty much outclass Default FLUDD I feel. The difference in maximum range between the two is that Default FLUDD can go 50% the distance of Final Destination, and HP FLUDD can go roughly 35% the range of FD (And Scalding FLUDD can go 25% of FD). The 15% drop in range isn't all that much when you consider about a 50%-100% increase in the ability to push opponents backwards and then gimp them.

EDIT: Actually just tested again, HP FLUDD has the same exact range fully charged as Default FLUDD. It just takes longer to get there. So Default FLUDD truly is pointless now. :/

 

[warriorman222]

I secretly made this thread to farm likes, but making sarcastic comments in character competitive thread is apparently more effective at that.

I gave you 2 likes happy.

But does that mean the OP won't be updated? Even if it does, there is a lot of unjustified or 1-person thoughts. Maybe we should try the method of rotating characters every day.

 

[popsofctown]

I have been still updating. I'll upgrade Scalding Fludd to yellow if another person agrees that a beginner should be trying it.

 

[FullMoon]

Gonna talk about Greninja here:

Neutral Special:

Water Shuriken: It has a better range and the larger charged Shuriken is a good alternative for gimping the opponent. It's also faster and very safe to use while pressuring the opponent. It's much harder to follow up on than Shifting Shuriken though, especially because the charged shuriken goes pretty slow.

Stagnant Shuriken: Takes away Greninja's only projectile in exchange for a short range melee move whose only use would be to damage shields. Very terrible.

Shifting Shuriken: The charged Shuriken pulls the opponent towards you, allowing for easy combos with Up-Smash and F-Smash depending of the spacing, which also makes it pretty good at screwing over recoveries because you can follow it up with a F-Smash to guarantee a KO. It's very good at pressuring the opponent and is very safe to use.

Side Special:

Shadow Sneak: It's a very versatile move and is also Greninja's signature move in this game. Can result in mindgames and has good KO potential behind it, as well as having many advanced techniques associated with it. Very useful

Shadow Strike: It's a stronger Shadow Sneak, but it also leaves you pretty vulnerable while teleporting. The KO potential is very good, but the higher delay in the attack makes it less versatile overall. It could still be good for punishing characters that have high ending lag in their moves though.

Shadow Dash: It has a fixed range, which makes it a lot less versatile than the other options, but it also means it comes out faster without needing to position the shadow the way you want, which could be useful for surprise attacks.

Up Special:

Hydro Pump: Very good recovery, very fast and has many offensive uses, especially when it comes to gimping recovery. Can be a bit hard to control at first, but it's all a matter of practice.

High-Capacity Pump: It's slower, making it easier to gimp, but the better control on the pumps and their higher range could have it's uses as far as it's offensive purpose is concerned, so it's very useful for beginners.

Single-Shot Pump: Useless. Can only shoot Greninja upwards which severely hurts his recovery and make him easy to gimp as well. No use offensivelly. Simply worthless.

Down Special:

Substitute: It's very slow when triggered, it's hard to get it triggered in the first place and can easily be shielded. Could be used to punish opponents with high ending lag on their moves though as it's probably Greninja's strongest default move.

Exploding Attack: Not as strong as Substitute, but it's not a counter, so it can be used as a way to punish dash attacks if you see them coming. The fact that Greninja disappears for a brief moment could also have some defensive use. It's still pretty slow though.

Substitute Ambush: It's even slower than regular Substitute, so the higher knockback that comes with is not very useful when it's almost impossible to hit the opponent with it in the first place.

 

[popsofctown]

So would anyone know how to use forum codey stuff to make a fancy popup where you click the character you want to view, and then see the moves?

 

[Teshie U]

No love for Skull Barrier? Its the only reflector that lets you approach while shutting down someone's camp game. You miss out on leaf shield footstools and jab locks, but footstooling doesn't bother most of the amazing recoveries in this game and pellets lock way better. Just look at how good palutenas shutdown game is with the little bit of freedom her reflector has on the back end.

Spoiler

quote this and look at the code

 

[popsofctown]

No love for Skull Barrier? Its the only reflector that lets you approach while shutting down someone's camp game. You miss out on leaf shield footstools and jab locks, but footstooling doesn't bother most of the amazing recoveries in this game and pellets lock way better. Just look at how good palutenas shutdown game is with the little bit of freedom her reflector has on the back end.

Spoiler

quote this and look at the code

That's the second support for Skull Barrier, so I'll upgrade it to yellow. That also means the others go yellow, I have a policy of avoiding greens in a category with reflector vs. nonreflector factors to emphasize the apple and orange nature of picking up a reflector when it's needed vs. a move with generalized utility.

 

[Spirst]

So would anyone know how to use forum codey stuff to make a fancy popup where you click the character you want to view, and then see the moves?

Use the character icon from the Smash 4 smilies and then place the respective customs in a spoiler tag by using [spoiler ] *Enter text for character here* [/spoiler ]

No space in the brackets of course. That's just to show you how it's done.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Substitute Ambush: It's even slower than regular Substitute, so the higher knockback that comes with is not very useful when it's almost impossible to hit the opponent with it in the first place.

I'm no Greninja player, but isn't that the counter that you can angle in almost every direction once they hit it?

 

[Teshie U]

Honestly, you may have a tough time here with varying opinions and alot of unproven theorycraft uses for moves.

Purple should not mean other moves are red in that section. Red should be reserved for moves that are nearly not functional.
Purples are simply the most powerful option in practical situations (Counter Timber, Dashing Assault etc.) and should be rare imo.

Most custom moves spots have 2 options that may see some use (or all 3 are so bad that it almost doesn't matter).