Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Piford]

Starters:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Prism Tower
... and there isn't really any more stages i feel should be a starter so i'll leave this spot blank for now...

Counterpicks:

Arena Ferox
Gaur Plain
Reset Bomb Forest: though i don't like how you can't grab edges at the bottom of the transformation...

Maybe:

Mute City: I haven't played on this much but it might work well enough...
Tortimer Island: I do like this stage and i'm ok with the random layout, but it is rather larger and the lack of a ledge on one side is worrying... Maybe for doubles...
Tomodachi Life: Might be useable but i'd rather not have it on 'cause of it's large size... Maybe for doubles...

Banned: only gonna mention a few i've seen other people put as starters or counterpicks...

Paper Mario: the wiiiiiind=(... also the bowser head...
Brinstar: Never really liked this stage... the acid feels too intrusive to me and now it seems the stage splits apart really quickly...
Spirit Train: Really wanted to have this in but all the stuff happening and the layout of the stage is just a bit too much imo...
Corneria: the shape is kinda weird to play on and you may randomly be killed by lasers from off-screen...
Jungle Japes: oh glob wtf where they thinking!!! the water was annoying enough before but now it's pretty much instant death o.O!!! kill it with sharp, pointy, fiery sticks i say...
Rainbow Road: just... no...


Not sure what to do with omega stages...

In Reset Bomb Forrest, You actually can grab the ledge of the left and center of the bottom of the second transformation, but i believe you cant grab the one on the right

 

[MaxThunder]

In Reset Bomb Forrest, You actually can grab the ledge of the left and center of the bottom of the second transformation, but i believe you cant grab the one on the right

hm it seems you're right... but i've still had trouble grabbing the ledges there, though i haven't really played that much on the stage yet...

nevertheless, i shall edit my wording there...

 

[popo12]

It's a low floor stage. You could say the same thing about low ceiling stages. "The thing that makes juggling so entertaining and fun to do is that it takes skill to keep your opponent from coming down. On Halberd you basically just knock them up and they're screwed because that stage kills you about the second you hit the blastzone, and the blastzone isn't far from the stage".

If you want to say the stage tests skill a little bit less than battlefield, you're probably right. But no one wants to play in a battlefield only stagelist (well, I do, but I'll never get it, so I settle for working to keep liberal stagelists internally consistent).

It's not fair to treat a low floor stage so much differently so a low ceiling stage, even though there is some tendency towards doing that since low floor stages are so much more rare.

I get your point, but the floor is simply too high. If we were talking about Yoshi's Story, sure, it would be fine. But on Jungle Japes you can get kills at like sub 50 percents just because the water throws you so hard. If you want to kill off the top on Halberd, you still have to rack damage to make that happen. You can kill on Japes at basically any percent if you land a half decent hit above the pits or on the side platforms. It's just way too powerful, much more than a normal, high floored stage would be.

 

[JCOnyx]

I get your point, but the floor is simply too high. If we were talking about Yoshi's Story, sure, it would be fine. But on Jungle Japes you can get kills at like sub 50 percents just because the water throws you so hard. If you want to kill off the top on Halberd, you still have to rack damage to make that happen. You can kill on Japes at basically any percent if you land a half decent hit above the pits or on the side platforms. It's just way too powerful, much more than a normal, high floored stage would be.

People get kills below 50% very frequently in every other smash game. Not to say that I'd agree with Japes becoming legal but how is that a good argument against it's legality?

 

[popo12]

People get kills below 50% very frequently in every other smash game. Not to say that I'd agree with Japes becoming legal but how is that a good argument against it's legality?

It's more that you get kills sun 50‰ with just whatever against anybody rather than like a good spike/gimp or against a character like Melee Falco or Mac. Like you can kill people with relatively weak moves early just because it puts a foot in the water. In those other situations, you habe to work hard and put yourself at risk to get those kills. Here you can just get the same results with much more defensive play.

 

[Krynxe]

On a similar note, the other main issue with Jungle Japes is that it inherently disadvantages certain characters more than others due to the stage simply shutting down certain recoveries. For instance, a character like Game & Watch will almost never be able to recover straight to the ledge on this stage because his recovery is extremely vertical and the distance between the ledge and water is too small. Even when pixels above the water, G&W goes significantly past the ledge when using his upB making him constantly and extremely susceptible to being hit back off the stage - and this is the case for several more characters.

I think one of the primary factors when deciding on the legality of stages should be whether or not the stage hugely advantages or disadvantages certain characters. Due to the stage being segmented and the water being present so close below the stage, I think this stage will be problematic for some of the cast and should thus not be allowed in competitive play.

(Testing, however, is still required just as it should be for any rule before it becomes solidified!)

 

[popo12]

Not really an argument over the stage, but still interesting, is that the momentum is so great that tethering the edge and pulling yourself up too quick will rip you off the stage and kill you. Granted, the only character I can do it consistently with is ZSS. Not sure Link and Samus can even do it.

 

[popsofctown]

On a similar note, the other main issue with Jungle Japes is that it inherently disadvantages certain characters more than others due to the stage simply shutting down certain recoveries. For instance, a character like Game & Watch will almost never be able to recover straight to the ledge on this stage because his recovery is extremely vertical and the distance between the ledge and water is too small. Even when pixels above the water, G&W goes significantly past the ledge when using his upB making him constantly and extremely susceptible to being hit back off the stage - and this is the case for several more characters.

I think one of the primary factors when deciding on the legality of stages should be whether or not the stage hugely advantages or disadvantages certain characters. Due to the stage being segmented and the water being present so close below the stage, I think this stage will be problematic for some of the cast and should thus not be allowed in competitive play.

(Testing, however, is still required just as it should be for any rule before it becomes solidified!)

Do all three of GW's up specials have this property?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

A character being too good on a stage is a good argument once its gets to a certain point (like in cases of King Dedede and Shadow Moses Island to point out an obvious one from Brawl). A character being too bad on a stage? That just means its a great counter pick that the character is going to have to deal with. Little Mac is going to be terrible on stages that are platform heavy, doesn't mean we don't allow them just because his air game sucks. Like wise, just because G&W's recovery sucks on Jungle Japes doesn't mean we ban the stage because of it. His users would simply have to deal with it or do the obvious thing and use their stage ban on it. Same with any other character in the same boat with JJ's platforms.

 

[popsofctown]

Just tested it. Heavy Trampoline can sweetspot the left ledge of the stage directly.
I'm led to wonder how many "several" more of the characters are so totally SOL for recovering on the stage, especially since it's not so cut and dry as whether your recovery sweetspots the ledge. Some characters have enough double jump power to just reach the ledge any way or use a side B, or they probbably can perform their up B against the bottom of the platform and enjoy the hitbox on it until drifting it over to the ledge.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

On a similar note, the other main issue with Jungle Japes is that it inherently disadvantages certain characters more than others due to the stage simply shutting down certain recoveries. For instance, a character like Game & Watch will almost never be able to recover straight to the ledge on this stage because his recovery is extremely vertical and the distance between the ledge and water is too small. Even when pixels above the water, G&W goes significantly past the ledge when using his upB making him constantly and extremely susceptible to being hit back off the stage - and this is the case for several more characters.

I think one of the primary factors when deciding on the legality of stages should be whether or not the stage hugely advantages or disadvantages certain characters. Due to the stage being segmented and the water being present so close below the stage, I think this stage will be problematic for some of the cast and should thus not be allowed in competitive play.

(Testing, however, is still required just as it should be for any rule before it becomes solidified!)

I think Jungle Japes shutting down some recoveries is akin to Battlefield shutting down some people's approaches because of platforms. It makes some characters a lot worse but that doesn't mean its not a legal stage. There is nothing unpredictable about the water itself, you know what to expect. The ONLY issue in that stage we should be discussing is klaptrap.

Brawl And Melee had a lot of legal counterpick stages that shut down a lot of recoveries. Delfino plaza for one.

I do think the Klaptrap is a decent reason to ban the stage because of his 1 hit KO's, but Klaptrap isn't random and appears at a set duration. But I can see the reasoning for banning due to klap, but I think the water just turns it from a neutral to a counterpick.

 

[Shouxiao]

Wish there were a few more neutral stages. Still we have good stages in 3DS version but I think WiiU version is going to have more. The Endpoint Omega stages should be divide between ones that can go under and ones that can be wall cling too.

 

[Krynxe]

I think Jungle Japes shutting down some recoveries is akin to Battlefield shutting down some people's approaches because of platforms. It makes some characters a lot worse but that doesn't mean its not a legal stage. There is nothing unpredictable about the water itself, you know what to expect. The ONLY issue in that stage we should be discussing is klaptrap.

Brawl And Melee had a lot of legal counterpick stages that shut down a lot of recoveries. Delfino plaza for one.

I do think the Klaptrap is a decent reason to ban the stage because of his 1 hit KO's, but Klaptrap isn't random and appears at a set duration. But I can see the reasoning for banning due to klap, but I think the water just turns it from a neutral to a counterpick.

Right, but I do believe that the platforms being segmented along with the water being so close to the ledge creates a much greater imbalance than other stages. I believe that the stage benefits certain characters too much, much more than we saw with most other counterpicks in the past. You do make a good point with Delfino and whatnot, which is why I believe we should always give these sorts of stages a try before deciding on banning them, but remember that Delfino was eventually removed from the standard stagelist due to imbalance issues and i believe these issues will be in greater quantities on Jungle Japes. Also, Battlefields provide slight advantages or disadvantages for certain characters, this is true for any stage. However, Jungle Japes hugely impairs certain characters and benefits those who can take advantage of the segmentation for too much. The klaptrap, of course, is also a concern but isn't the key problem because it doesn't inherently benefit or hurt specific characters like the other problems mentioned

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I would like to see video evidence covering Japes and how dangerous the water is to certain characters. Not saying that to shut out your arguement, but out of curiosity.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

The catch with Japes is not that the water kills you. The catch is that mostly anywhere near the left platform, the water kills you before you can actually do anything, let alone jump. Not to mention the absurdly high blastzone which basically forces you to use horizontal finishers, meteors (or even footstools), and restrict people to play on the right side so that they at least have time to react if they get dropped in the water. And that's not even mentioning the klaptrap spiking you like a volleyball player.

That's why Jungle Japes is unreasonable. It restricts playstyles with many disadvantages that often can't be worked around no matter how skilled the player is. You touch that water, you'll miss Brinstar's Acid. At least the Acid could give you a chance to survive.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Right, but I do believe that the platforms being segmented along with the water being so close to the ledge creates a much greater imbalance than other stages. I believe that the stage benefits certain characters too much, much more than we saw with most other counterpicks in the past. You do make a good point with Delfino and whatnot, which is why I believe we should always give these sorts of stages a try before deciding on banning them, but remember that Delfino was eventually removed from the standard stagelist due to imbalance issues and i believe these issues will be in greater quantities on Jungle Japes. Also, Battlefields provide slight advantages or disadvantages for certain characters, this is true for any stage. However, Jungle Japes hugely impairs certain characters and benefits those who can take advantage of the segmentation for too much. The klaptrap, of course, is also a concern but isn't the key problem because it doesn't inherently benefit or hurt specific characters like the other problems mentioned

I wouldnt be opposed to banning Japes if it ends up being just as bad as Japes in melee. If delfino was banned then that to me means it is impairing enough to be banned. I stopped playing brawl awhile so I didnt realize Delfino got removed.

 

[MaxThunder]

I would like to see video evidence covering Japes and how dangerous the water is to certain characters. Not saying that to shut out your arguement, but out of curiosity.

you're gonna have to take my word for this but as marth i was barely knocked off the right side of the stage and into the water... i tried doing my up-b as soon as i could to survive and my up-b started just as i was underneath the main platform... then i flew up through the next hole and died off the left side... near the top, even...

 

[Piford]

I'd like to add that the claptrap is seemingly random this time around. If he does follow some kind of pattern, that it's not as simple as every 10 seconds.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Delfino was banned because people went WAY overboard in banning stages in Brawl. The stage was perfectly fine: a lot of stages that were banned were fine, but certain areas didn't like playing on them and eventually got their way to the detriment of the competitive scene as a whole. We should not be following those footsteps again.

A high blastzone is not a reason to ban a stage. A strong "nearly but not quite" insta-kill area down below isn't a reason to ban a stage either. There are no real surprises on JJ (except apparently maybe that claptrap this time around, go figure), everyone knows how it works and the best way to fight on those stages. The right platform is both small enough and close enough that most characters should have a way to either pester/rack up damage or force whoever is on that platform off. The few that don't are the ones you aim to counter pick against with Jungle Japes, as it means the phrase "counter pick" actually has meaning.

Heck, I've tried camping on the right platform with Mii Gunner before, spamming missiles, lobbing well timed grenades, launching Down Bs onto the main platform: I still lost. That area is certainly beatable.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Delfino was banned because people went WAY overboard in banning stages in Brawl. The stage was perfectly fine: a lot of stages that were banned were fine, but certain areas didn't like playing on them and eventually got their way to the detriment of the competitive scene as a whole. We should not be following those footsteps again.

A high blastzone is not a reason to ban a stage. A strong "nearly but not quite" insta-kill area down below isn't a reason to ban a stage either. There are no real surprises on JJ (except apparently maybe that claptrap this time around, go figure), everyone knows how it works and the best way to fight on those stages. The right platform is both small enough and close enough that most characters should have a way to either pester/rack up damage or force whoever is on that platform off. The few that don't are the ones you aim to counter pick against with Jungle Japes, as it means the phrase "counter pick" actually has meaning.

Heck, I've tried camping on the right platform with Mii Gunner before, spamming missiles, lobbing well timed grenades, launching Down Bs onto the main platform: I still lost. That area is certainly beatable.

The problem of Japes is that it has a combination of restrictive traits that reduce not only one, but many characters and play-styles options. If it just had the high blast ceiling. It would be a good counter-pick. If it just had the klaptrap, counter-pick. But it has a high blast ceiling, 2 major hazards, and the left side simply isn't balanced compared to the right side. (If the platforms weren't symmetrical it would be fine, but they aren't). It's not a particular trait that forces it to be banned, it's the fact that all of them in a single stage are simply broken.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Kalptrap's randomness os a pretty big problem (why would they change it like this?)

A high ceiling and focus on gimping/horizontal kills is sort of the freakin' point of a counterpick in the first place. I'm certainly not advocating the legalization of this stage but I don't like seeing that mindset in the discussion. It's not like characters with high vertical kill power don't have other options or can't kill off the top at all. That's a great argument for it not being neutral but if we don't want a completely neutered stage list it's not a good argument for banning it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Agreed. The only legitimate possible issue is the claptrap being random or not. A random 1SK area isn't a small issue. I'd be curious to find out if its 100% random or more along the lines of "it appears every 8-12 seconds". Could in theory be presence based now, kinda like the catapult on Pirate Ship: it had its own timer, but it would break the timer if somebody got close to it and it hadn't fired recently.

 

[Tybis]

Delfino was banned because people went WAY overboard in banning stages in Brawl. The stage was perfectly fine: a lot of stages that were banned were fine, but certain areas didn't like playing on them and eventually got their way to the detriment of the competitive scene as a whole. We should not be following those footsteps again.

I'd like to add that Delfino was even a neutral in 9-starter stagelists, if memory serves.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Jungle Japes water is way strong this time around, at least in Brawl with swimming you lost all momentum the instant you left the water, but in Smash 4 the water's ridiculous momentum stays even if you jump out of it. I suppose it's not dissimilar to having an extremely high lower blast zone, but it does make recovering a series challenge for characters who have a mostly vertical recovery.

If that klaptrap is actually truly random this time around, though, this stage is a definite instant ban.

My personal opinion on what stages are worthy of being legal:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Arena Ferox
Yoshi's Island
Reset Bomb Forest
Prism Tower
Brinstar (probably a counterpick)
Tomodachi Life (good luck circle-camping this with all the drop-through floors. Unique stage design lets you approach from anywhere. Seems to actually be helpful for slower characters like Ganondorf.)
Unova Pokémon League (maybe a counterpick, though. Reshiram's Fusion Flare can really shut down some characters, such as Ganondorf, but otherwise the stage seems pretty reasonable.)
Spirit Train (occasional walk-off is a thing, but mostly the stage seems pretty legit. Only worried about certain small characters being able to camp on the front of the train, at least until a metal train comes along and forces them to leave or risk being drilled to death. Lack of a lower blast line on the front of the train might be a bit of an issue as well. Maybe just a counterpick?)
Distant Planet (Counterpick. Main platform interacts oddly with Greninja's Shadow Sneak, sometimes stopping it in place regardless of how far the shadow moved. The springy main platform also makes it more difficult to space attacks properly.)
Tortimer's Island (Probably a counterpick. Place is huge and the slopes prevent projectiles from crossing. Also Villager's Neutral Special and items. And Rosalina's Down Special and items.)
Mute City (Lacks a lower blastline, though the damaging floor hazard KOs off the top at around standard kill percent. Undervalues Meteor Smashes overall, while possibly overcentralizing aerial combat. Possibly a counter-pick, but pretty solid overall. Little Mac can navigate this stage effectively, but he has to wait for the platforms to line up in his favour, as he doesn't really want to do any jumping that doesn't involve hitting an opponent already on the platform above with Rising Uppercut.)

And the list of "maybes":

Rainbow Road (Are there specific telegraphs for the cars when they come in from the sides instead of the back? I'm having trouble anticipating how high they're going to take the jumps, and I haven't been able to find any safe zones other than the air well above the platforms.)
Jungle Japes (Are the klaptraps random or not? If they're not random, it's counterpick material.)
Gaur Plains (Fighting is centralized near the upper and horizontal blast lines, also walk-offs. Lower platforms are easy for characters with reach to defend against characters who lack reach. Lower blast line is very far down compared to the platforms, especially the upper platforms where most of the fighting takes place, making it potentially very easy to recover from Meteor Smash attempts.)
Magicant (Flying Men seem really pretty easy to neutralize, as they flinch from weak attacks for much longer than a fighter does. Needs some testing in a competitive setting. Also, platform along the bottom, though unlike CPUs you're unlikely to be saved by it when it's offscreen to the left or right. Platforms behave like the clouds in Brawl Skyworld in that you can Meteor Smash people right through them. Overall analysis: Overvalues Meteor Smashes, potentially overcentralizing stage hazard, occasional platform along the bottom to save characters. Important question: Is the platform along the bottom truly random or not?)
Green Hill Zone (walk-offs are definitely not an issue on this stage, the blast lines are super far offscreen. The half-pipe shape is weird though, and the damageable floor interferes with moves like Raptor Boost.)
Gerudo Valley (The lower blast line basically rises up and eats you as the bridge is repairing, which can be quite frustrating. Not random at all though, so most likely not an issue for most of the cast. If it is legal, it's pretty definitely a counterpick because of exactly that, along with the walkoffs and the damageable bridge encouraging play near the walkoffs while also interfering with attacks like Raptor Boost.)

 

[MysteriousSilver]

So in a world without chainthrows, are walkoffs still deserving of autoban?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

So in a world without chainthrows, are walkoffs still deserving of autoban?

Sort of depends on how close the blast line is to the edge of the screen, in my opinion. Balloon Fight, Flat Zone 2, and Kirby's Dream Land, for example, are pretty much instant bans due to how close the blast line is to the edge of the screen. You can legit just grab someone at almost any % and chuck 'em over the blast line for a KO, without having to be offscreen. It's somewhat risky in Smash 4 with how short grab reach is if you don't have a tether-grab, but still pretty stupid IMO.

 

[EddyBearr]

Starters:
Yoshi's Island Brawl
Final Destination
Battlefield

Ban 1, ban 1, play.

Counterpicks:
Arena Ferox

Done, and done.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Jungle Japes water is way strong this time around, at least in Brawl with swimming you lost all momentum the instant you left the water, but in Smash 4 the water's ridiculous momentum stays even if you jump out of it. I suppose it's not dissimilar to having an extremely high lower blast zone, but it does make recovering a series challenge for characters who have a mostly vertical recovery.

If that klaptrap is actually truly random this time around, though, this stage is a definite instant ban.

My personal opinion on what stages are worthy of being legal:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Arena Ferox
Reset Bomb Forest
Prism Tower
Unova Pokémon League (maybe a counterpick, though. Reshiram's Fusion Flare can really shut down some characters, such as Ganondorf, but otherwise the stage seems pretty reasonable.)
Spirit Train (occasional walk-off is a thing, but mostly the stage seems pretty legit. Only worried about certain small characters being able to camp on the front of the train, at least until a metal train comes along and forces them to leave or risk being drilled to death. Lack of a lower blast line on the front of the train might be a bit of an issue as well. Maybe just a counterpick?)
Distant Planet (Counterpick. Main platform interacts oddly with Greninja's Shadow Sneak, sometimes stopping it in place regardless of how far the shadow moved. The springy main platform also makes it more difficult to space attacks properly.)
Tortimer's Island (Probably a counterpick. Place is huge and the slopes prevent projectiles from crossing. Also Villager's Neutral Special and items. And Rosalina's Down Special and items.)
Mute City (Lacks a lower blastline, though the damaging floor hazard KOs off the top at around standard kill percent. Undervalues Meteor Smashes overall, while possibly overcentralizing aerial combat. Possibly a counter-pick, but pretty solid overall. Little Mac can navigate this stage effectively, but he has to wait for the platforms to line up in his favour, as he doesn't really want to do any jumping that doesn't involve hitting an opponent already on the platform above with Rising Uppercut.)

And the list of "maybes":

Rainbow Road (Are there specific telegraphs for the cars when they come in from the sides instead of the back? I'm having trouble anticipating how high they're going to take the jumps, and I haven't been able to find any safe zones other than the air well above the platforms.)
Jungle Japes (Are the klaptraps random or not? If they're not random, it's counterpick material.)
Gaur Plains (Fighting is centralized near the upper and horizontal blast lines, also walk-offs. Lower platforms are easy for characters with reach to defend against characters who lack reach. Lower blast line is very far down compared to the platforms, especially the upper platforms where most of the fighting takes place, making it potentially very easy to recover from Meteor Smash attempts.)
Magicant (Flying Men seem really pretty easy to neutralize, as they flinch from weak attacks for much longer than a fighter does. Needs some testing in a competitive setting. Also, platform along the bottom, though unlike CPUs you're unlikely to be saved by it when it's offscreen to the left or right. Platforms behave like the clouds in Brawl Skyworld in that you can Meteor Smash people right through them. Overall analysis: Overvalues Meteor Smashes, potentially overcentralizing stage hazard, occasional platform along the bottom to save characters. Important question: Is the platform along the bottom truly random or not?)

First off, thoughts on Corneria? Imo it isn't half as bad as a lot of the stages you listed as legal. Anyway, opinion time:

I really, really think Spirit Train is a poor stage. The camera shifting, the bombs, and the wall in the train (though this one isnt too important compared to the others), all come together to make a stage that I find myself thinking more about than my opponent when I'm playing on it. I really think this thing is way too intrusive.

As for Magicant, Flying Man is a huge hazard that becomes very valuable in just forcing you to neutralize him. Really don't see this stage working out at all (and its so beautiful too... Why Sakurai, why! :[ )

 

[Terotrous]

I'll give some more of my stage thoughts:


Jungle Japes:

Just a terrible stage in general. Going anywhere near the water is instant death for almost all characters, god forbid when the claptrap comes around. This makes it an extremely strong camping stage since if the opponent is on the right platform they merely have to poke you off the ledge and you die.


Spirit Train:

This seems like an insta-ban to me. I thought it was sort of okay at first, until I discovered two things.

- DK can do a grab release with forward throw near the back of the train for an instant KO (you fall onto the track and instantly die thanks to the scrolling stage)
- a massive bomb occasionally falls on the middle of the stage and deals enormous knockback with very little warning.


Tortimer Island:

Beehives are really disruptive. One ledge is always ungrabbable. Stage is inherently random in terms of what kinds of trees spawn. All sorts of bad stuff here for a stage that offers almost nothing compelling.


Gaur Plains:

One of the most obvious circle camp stages of all time. Also just generally a horrible stage in terms of design, there's nowhere to fight on the lower half of the stage and the tops are walkoffs.


Distant Planet:

Generally disruptive and campy. Offstage play is garbage here, with one walkoff and one side of the stage that is usually taken up by the bulborb. Rain tends to shut down combat when it occurs, and the position on the left under the platform is overly strong for some characters.


Corneria:

I agree that apart from bugs this is somewhat viable if you absolutely had to have another stage.


Rainbow Road:

I've tested this out this stage a little more, and I now agree that it's a bit different from Prism Tower, but every way it differs is much worse. Beyond the cars (which are actually more dangerous than I thought, killing even heavy characters around 120%), it also has a lot of stupid layouts that tend to give overly strong camping spots until the platform returns. In general I just don't think this is a very good stage.


Tomodachi Life:

I think this stage is actually pretty legitimate. It doesn't really lend itself to circle camping and there's no obnoxious hazards to deal with.


In general, it seems like we're so desperate for more stages to play that we're contemplating letting all sorts of obviously terrible stages in, which is bad. Honestly, 6-8 viable stages is perfectly fine. There's enough room there to implement DSR and to allow some counterpicking.

 

[Piford]

Jungle Japes water is way strong this time around, at least in Brawl with swimming you lost all momentum the instant you left the water, but in Smash 4 the water's ridiculous momentum stays even if you jump out of it. I suppose it's not dissimilar to having an extremely high lower blast zone, but it does make recovering a series challenge for characters who have a mostly vertical recovery.

If that klaptrap is actually truly random this time around, though, this stage is a definite instant ban.

My personal opinion on what stages are worthy of being legal:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Arena Ferox
Yoshi's Island
Reset Bomb Forest
Prism Tower
Brinstar (probably a counterpick)
Tomodachi Life (good luck circle-camping this with all the drop-through floors. Unique stage design lets you approach from anywhere. Seems to actually be helpful for slower characters like Ganondorf.)
Unova Pokémon League (maybe a counterpick, though. Reshiram's Fusion Flare can really shut down some characters, such as Ganondorf, but otherwise the stage seems pretty reasonable.)
Spirit Train (occasional walk-off is a thing, but mostly the stage seems pretty legit. Only worried about certain small characters being able to camp on the front of the train, at least until a metal train comes along and forces them to leave or risk being drilled to death. Lack of a lower blast line on the front of the train might be a bit of an issue as well. Maybe just a counterpick?)
Distant Planet (Counterpick. Main platform interacts oddly with Greninja's Shadow Sneak, sometimes stopping it in place regardless of how far the shadow moved. The springy main platform also makes it more difficult to space attacks properly.)
Tortimer's Island (Probably a counterpick. Place is huge and the slopes prevent projectiles from crossing. Also Villager's Neutral Special and items. And Rosalina's Down Special and items.)
Mute City (Lacks a lower blastline, though the damaging floor hazard KOs off the top at around standard kill percent. Undervalues Meteor Smashes overall, while possibly overcentralizing aerial combat. Possibly a counter-pick, but pretty solid overall. Little Mac can navigate this stage effectively, but he has to wait for the platforms to line up in his favour, as he doesn't really want to do any jumping that doesn't involve hitting an opponent already on the platform above with Rising Uppercut.)

And the list of "maybes":

Rainbow Road (Are there specific telegraphs for the cars when they come in from the sides instead of the back? I'm having trouble anticipating how high they're going to take the jumps, and I haven't been able to find any safe zones other than the air well above the platforms.)
Jungle Japes (Are the klaptraps random or not? If they're not random, it's counterpick material.)
Gaur Plains (Fighting is centralized near the upper and horizontal blast lines, also walk-offs. Lower platforms are easy for characters with reach to defend against characters who lack reach. Lower blast line is very far down compared to the platforms, especially the upper platforms where most of the fighting takes place, making it potentially very easy to recover from Meteor Smash attempts.)
Magicant (Flying Men seem really pretty easy to neutralize, as they flinch from weak attacks for much longer than a fighter does. Needs some testing in a competitive setting. Also, platform along the bottom, though unlike CPUs you're unlikely to be saved by it when it's offscreen to the left or right. Platforms behave like the clouds in Brawl Skyworld in that you can Meteor Smash people right through them. Overall analysis: Overvalues Meteor Smashes, potentially overcentralizing stage hazard, occasional platform along the bottom to save characters. Important question: Is the platform along the bottom truly random or not?)
Green Hill Zone (walk-offs are definitely not an issue on this stage, the blast lines are super far offscreen. The half-pipe shape is weird though, and the damageable floor interferes with moves like Raptor Boost.)
Gerudo Valley (The lower blast line basically rises up and eats you as the bridge is repairing, which can be quite frustrating. Not random at all though, so most likely not an issue for most of the cast. If it is legal, it's pretty definitely a counterpick because of exactly that, along with the walkoffs and the damageable bridge encouraging play near the walkoffs while also interfering with attacks like Raptor Boost.)

Spirit train is concerning because theres a small chance (but a chance none the less) that the bomb train goes and blows up the entire train besides the engine.

I think Green Hill Zone breakable floor is problematic because it can screw over characters with dairs like Toon Link, Greninja and ZSS without them knowing it before hand. On top of that theres the small hazard in the checkpoint and the half pipe shape.

Edit: Rainbow Road Does have visual cues from which direction the cars are coming. It will have a yellow triangle with a shyguy facing forward, right, or left. The racers will be going where they guy is facing, so if the shyguy is facing left the cars are coming from the right.

Here's my findings on Klaptrap
1st Match
1st after 7 seconds
2nd after 25 seconds (18 sec diff)
3rd after 37 seconds (12 sec diff)
4th after 46 seconds (19 sec diff)
5th after 72 seconds (26 sec diff)
6th after 80 seconds (8 sec diff)
7th after 93 seconds (13 sec diff)
8th after 104 seconds (11 sec diff)
2nd Match
1st after 7 seconds
2nd after 17 seconds (10 sec diff)
3rd after 41 seconds (24 sec diff)
4th after 53 seconds (12 sec diff)
5th after 63 seconds (10 sec diff)
6th after 71 seconds (8 sec diff)
7th after 84 seconds (13 sec diff)
8th after 98 seconds (14 sec diff)
9th after 107 seconds (9 sec diff)
So if there is some kind of patter, or maybe some set time differences i can choose from, its so brutally complicated that its basically random

Edit 2:

I'll give some more of my stage thoughts:

Gaur Plains:

One of the most obvious circle camp stages of all time. Also just generally a horrible stage in terms of design, there's nowhere to fight on the lower half of the stage and the tops are walkoffs.
.

I've actually tested circle camping on this stage, and the only character that seems to have problems is ganondorf. But even as ganondorf I was still able to catch sonic with some mind games. I found the stage to actually have had a lot of thought put into the design. The bottom platforms seem to led themselves to allow a lot of movement in a small space. Characters with a good ariel game can utilize this bottom space to rack up damage. The top is much better for grounded fighters. Walk-offs aren't an issue for camping since the blast zone is a fair distance away, and you can attack from under the platform.

 

[Terotrous]

Green Hill Zone is also all about camping the signpost. That's literally the only thing you should do while playing that stage.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

First off, thoughts on Corneria? Imo it isn't half as bad as a lot of the stages you listed as legal. Anyway, opinion time:

I really, really think Spirit Train is a poor stage. The camera shifting, the bombs, and the wall in the train (though this one isnt too important compared to the others), all come together to make a stage that I find myself thinking more about than my opponent when I'm playing on it. I really think this thing is way too intrusive.

As for Magicant, Flying Man is a huge hazard that becomes very valuable in just forcing you to neutralize him. Really don't see this stage working out at all (and its so beautiful too... Why Sakurai, why! :[ )

Corneria might not actually be all that bad in this game. No wall combos, that's for sure. The closest thing you're gonna get to a wall combo is actually putting yourself against a wall to prevent you from sliding backwards while you spam fire breath, flamethrower, or rapid jabs. Issue is the truly random lasers that can come from offscreen to own you. Despite dealing only 6%, they have very real KO power. Also, I don't see any glitches other than the fall-through glitch. Lasers with Absorbing Vortex/PSi Magnet/Gravitational Pull are just physics abuses. The moves are behaving entirely as intended (sucking in projectiles to form a barrier around you), even if it is super rude to your opponent.

Spirit Train I kind of like because the layout is interesting. Bombs have arrows showing you where they're going to land. Didn't know it can actually take out everything but the engine, though. That said, if Donkey Kong has a grab-release instant KO then there'd be a problem, and also some characters can probably camp the stage ridiculously by hiding under the drop-through platforms

So far it seems like unless a player is intelligent with their Flying Man use, it isn't all that hard to position attacks to strike both Flying Man and your foe, especially if you have piercing projectiles. And if they try to camp elsewhere and just wait for Flying Man to kill you, you can simply poke him with jabs forever until he dies. Flying Man seems to very definitely be a glass cannon: It's actually somewhat difficult to get in in the first place, but once you do he's easily dealt with by poking him repeatedly because he flinches for days from anything. Honestly, I'm biased. With the exception of the Flying Man and the random save-your-arse platform along the bottom, I like just about everything about this stage. Including the ability to Meteor Smash people through the floor, I think that's a cool gimmick.

Gaur Plains is indeed circle-camp city in some matchups, plus stupidly-small platforms (Shulk probably covers the entire freakin' thing with DSmash or FSmash) and horizontal/vertical KOs at 65-80% if you're fighting on the only real platforms on the whole stage, and a whole bunch of airspace for Peach and Jigglypuff to destroy everything. That's why it's in the "maybe" list. As in, "not so 100% obviously terrible that there's no way you'd ever allow it ever".

Edit: As for Rainbow Road, what I was wondering is if there's any way to tell how high any individual car is going to take the jump in the various "cars from the side" sections where the cars go over a jump.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I also question having an un-grabbable ledge being a problem, especially in a game where no one relies on tether. To me that's just more counterpick fuel--though that stage has other problems.

Flying man seems like a problem to me honestly. If the opponent is acting wisely he won't be in a place where you can hit both the flying man and him, and those elbow drops HURT. It just seems like way too much reward for little effort, and really encourages camping that top right platform when he's not there. Heck, I'm all for supporting stage control and would be cool with it if he just did like one elbow drop and left, but you're effectively fighting two characters. Also, I haven't tested it but it seems like with this agressive elbow-dropping hitbox flying around you could pull some shenanigans that would be difficult to deal with. Swinging at him means you have ending lag. Blocking him means you're sitting in shield. This is all pretty disruptive to the fight from what I can see.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Why were walk-offs banned in the first place? If the main reasons were fixed, then I don't see why they can't be counter-picks.

 

[EddyBearr]

Why were walk-offs banned in the first place? If the main reasons were fixed, then I don't see why they can't be counter-picks.

The absolute core reason for banning walk-offs would be this thing called a back throw.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Guys, the bomb on Spirit Train is a Giant Blue Cart that can appear at either the front or the back of the Train, then it jumps and explodes. You can hit it a couple times so it stops the process.
Also, where it will fall is warned several seconds prior, and the explosion lasts very shortly to say it will insta-kill anyone.

 

[The_SuperiorTaste]

I haven't seen anyone talk about this, but, shouldn't we make Omega's into two seperate stages? There are omega stages where you can go underneath the stage like Battlefield, Mute City, and Rainbow Road. and some you can't like Yoshi's Island, Pictochat, and Pacmaze. We should seperate these as two stages because the latter will make you live longer by teching off walls.

 

[allshort17]

I haven't seen anyone talk about this, but, shouldn't we make Omega's into two seperate stages? There are omega stages where you can go underneath the stage like Battlefield, Mute City, and Rainbow Road. and some you can't like Yoshi's Island, Pictochat, and Pacmaze. We should seperate these as two stages because the latter will make you live longer by teching off walls.

Because you have 2 FD's, which is a problem for striking.

 

[The_SuperiorTaste]

Because you have 2 FD's, which is a problem for striking.

That is a very good point. The only thing I can think of to fix it, is to make the FD with walls stage a counterpick and not a starter.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

If the whole "some omegas are towers and some aren't" thing is such a big point of contention, then we should probably just not utilize the omegas and just play vanilla FD. Legalizing them just so wall jumpers get extra recovery tricks seems to be more trouble than it's worth when I'm pretty sure said tricks aren't the primary reasons for picking FD in the first place. Otherwise, I figure the Omega choice should be up to the guy picking the Omega, since if he's picking it's his preference anyways. My 2 cents.