Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Boss N]

Would anyone want to test walk-off camping with me? Just so we can FINALLY put this dang subject to rest?

 

[KiBom]

I'd argue for the legality of Tortimer's Island, at least as a counterpick. Cap'n is no different from Randall and while the fruit is random it encourages central stage control, which is already an important part of Smash.

 

[Boss N]

I'd argue for the legality of Tortimer's Island, at least as a counterpick. Cap'n is no different from Randall and while the fruit is random it encourages central stage control, which is already an important part of Smash.

Also the fruit only heal a minuscule amount of health so it's not like you're getting Max Tomatoes all the time. Plus the beehive and exploding coconuts are a rare occurrence, not too different from peach's stitch face. That is, if that particular round even has trees.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I'm more worried about the Beehive there. I don't mind the randomized platform layout or Cap'n, but the Beehive forces a player to play defensively for a good long while, seems to spawn in a random location (unless I'm wrong?) and may be too much of an advantage just for getting to it first. It's also hella centralizing, since your gameplan when one shows up should be GET THAT DAMN BEEHIVE AND PUT IT IN HIS FACE.

Again, I haven't played on the stage enough to make a real judgement, but that's what it looks like from here to me.

Also the fruit only heal a minuscule amount of health so it's not like you're getting Max Tomatoes all the time. Plus the beehive and exploding coconuts are a rare occurrence, not too different from peach's stitch face. That is, if that particular round even has trees.

I should mention that I'm 100% in favor of a large and varied stage list, but I don't think that "it only screws everything up sometimes" is a good defense. Sure, it's a rare occurrence, but it only has to occur once at a grand finals to potentially make someone lose a hundred dollars, you know?

 

[Boss N]

The beehive only becomes a problem if you're off stage, while it does disrupt combos the damage is neglect able and is doesn't last too long, so unless your opponent is at high percentage I doubt it's gonna be a game changer, infact focusing your entire strategy around it might seem like a bad idea. Perhaps there can be a gentlemen's clause to the stage, if both players want to play on it then they need to agree to throw the beehive off the stage if it ever comes up.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

The beehive only becomes a problem if you're off stage, while it does disrupt combos the damage is neglect able and is doesn't last too long, so unless your opponent is at high percentage I doubt it's gonna be a game changer, infact focusing your entire strategy around it might seem like a bad idea. Perhaps there can be a gentlemen's clause to the stage, if both players want to play on it then they need to agree to throw the beehive off the stage if it ever comes up.

It might be true that the beehive isn't that big of a problem, and I haven't tested it at all, but I could see it being a much bigger problem than what you say; making things less safe, interrupting punishes or interrupting a jab you were going to use to interrupt someone else's move. It seems to me, at this time, that it really forces you to be defensive while you're being effected by it and gives a chance that pretty much any option you chose is going to fail because BEEEES. Interrupting combos and follow ups is also going to be problematic for some characters. I use Dthrow->Uair as Palu a lot to get my kills and if I'm getting stung in the middle of it all the time what could have been a kill just turns into some damage and a loss of momentum for me. If I'm behind a stock and I need that kill to even things up, this puts me at a pretty big disadvantage.

Mind you this is all theorycraft.

I'm against the gentleman's clause just because it's so loose--when do you stop? Do you have to give up pressure/momentum to take a break and toss it? What it spawns in while someone's trying to perform an aerial and they grab it, do they have to walk to the edge of the stage and toss it off? If they have momentum, they're giving it up. If the other dude has momentum, they got a get-out-of-jail free card.

 

[Terotrous]

I think you're coming at this from the wrong angle. We shouldn't be figuring out which stages we're going to ALLOW, but which ones are disruptive enough to warrant a ban. If someone prefers Rainbow Road as their counterpick over Prism Tower, that's their business, and if the stage isn't to disruptive, then they shouldn't be banned from counterpicking it just because a similar stage exists.

That's not really true though. If you look at PM's stage list, there's plenty of potentially viable stages that are not allowed simply because they want to create a concise and varied set of stages that lacks redundancy.

Every stage you put into the legal list affects DSR and stage striking. If we put in both Prism Tower and Rainbow Road, a character who is good at sharking now has two similar stages that let them shark. Now, perhaps if there were more valid "battlefield-type" stages that might be fine, but looking at the stage list right now I don't think there's really room for another one. It's open to some debate, but I'd want to hear a good reason for including Rainbow Road beyond "it might be playable and there are so few other playable stages".

 

[Terotrous]

It might be true that the beehive isn't that big of a problem, and I haven't tested it at all, but I could see it being a much bigger problem than what you say; making things less safe, interrupting punishes or interrupting a jab you were going to use to interrupt someone else's move.

Also, yes, Beehive is hella disruptive. It can turn a valid punish into a situation where the opponent gets a free punish instead. You basically can't attack at all except maybe for projectiles for a good 15 seconds while those bees are on you.

Add in Fruit and random exploding coconuts on a stage which is basically just FD anyway and I really see no reason to include it.

 

[Piford]

That's not really true though. If you look at PM's stage list, there's plenty of potentially viable stages that are not allowed simply because they want to create a concise and varied set of stages that lacks redundancy.

Every stage you put into the legal list affects DSR and stage striking. If we put in both Prism Tower and Rainbow Road, a character who is good at sharking now has two similar stages that let them shark. Now, perhaps if there were more valid "battlefield-type" stages that might be fine, but looking at the stage list right now I don't think there's really room for another one. It's open to some debate, but I'd want to hear a good reason for including Rainbow Road beyond "it might be playable and there are so few other playable stages".

The match ups are completely different on both Rainbow Road and Prism Tower. Yes, there are going to be some characters that are good on both (although I have yet to see sharking become a problem, even though it occurs). Some characters might be good on rainbow road, but bad on Prism Tower. Take Little Mac for example. I find when I play that Little Mac performs great on Rainbow Road since the main platform is always flat with no alternate platforms, and that he can utilizes the transformations with walk-offs to get kills without going near the edge. Now I find Little mac to be pretty bad on prism tower. Most of the stops just add platforms and shrink the main one, making it worse for little mac. Also note that I'm using Little Mac as an Example not a reason to make Rainbow Road legal; its just to show that who's good on Rainbow Road might now be good at Prism tower.

 

[Terotrous]

The match ups are completely different on both Rainbow Road and Prism Tower. Yes, there are going to be some characters that are good on both (although I have yet to see sharking become a problem, even though it occurs). Some characters might be good on rainbow road, but bad on Prism Tower. Take Little Mac for example. I find when I play that Little Mac performs great on Rainbow Road since the main platform is always flat with no alternate platforms

I don't know, Little Mac also probably has more problems avoiding the cars and on that rotating platform part of the stage. I'm not convinced it's drastically different for him.

Also, Little Mac is the most stage-dependent character in the game, so he's not really a great example. Stage choices matter less for every other character compared to him.

 

[Piford]

I don't know, Little Mac also probably has more problems avoiding the cars and on that rotating platform part of the stage. I'm not convinced it's drastically different for him.

Also, Little Mac is the most stage-dependent character in the game, so he's not really a great example. Stage choices matter less for every other character compared to him.

The cars are easily avoided by all characters if you know what your doing. Little Mac can also super armor through them, or counter through them. I'll give another Example of Jigglypuff. On Rainbow Road, her opponents can utilize the damaging floor to kill her earlier (since she's the lightest in the game) and it also makes her gimping game worse. On prism tower, a lot of the platforms are closer to the ceiling, meaning she can rest her opponents when they have less damage taken.

 

[Terotrous]

The cars are easily avoided by all characters if you know what your doing. Little Mac can also super armor through them, or counter through them.

Both of those options involve strong commitment and are punishable by the opponent. Jumping over the cars is obviously the best option.

I'll give another Example of Jigglypuff. On Rainbow Road, her opponents can utilize the damaging floor to kill her earlier (since she's the lightest in the game) and it also makes her gimping game worse. On prism tower, a lot of the platforms are closer to the ceiling, meaning she can rest her opponents when they have less damage taken.

In general, if you can hit someone into the damaging floor, they'd be dead on prism tower. It also generally takes absurd damage to die from the floor. It's true that it might make gimps slightly worse, but Jiggs isn't 100% gimps anymore, Bair has kill power.

 

[Piford]

Both of those options involve strong commitment and are punishable by the opponent. Jumping over the cars is obviously the best option.



In general, if you can hit someone into the damaging floor, they'd be dead on prism tower. It also generally takes absurd damage to die from the floor. It's true that it might make gimps slightly worse, but Jiggs isn't 100% gimps anymore, Bair has kill power.

I know she has more options, I main Jiggs, but recovery's pretty good in this game for most characters, so unless your getting hit with gannon's down air (example not only move) , then Jiggs actually has a better chance of recovering on prism tower. (sorry for badly wording this answer)

 

[DrLobster]

As of now, with no way to turn off certain things in single player, I feel like this is a pretty good (albeit conservative) Doubles stage list:

NEUTRALS:
-Battlefield
-Final Destination/Omega Stages
-Jungle Japes
-Tomodachi Life
-Yoshi's Island

COUNTERPICKS:
-Arena Ferox
-Prism Tower
-Rainbow Road
-Jungle Japes

Feelin a solid 2 stage bans for winner on this.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Both of those options involve strong commitment and are punishable by the opponent. Jumping over the cars is obviously the best option.



In general, if you can hit someone into the damaging floor, they'd be dead on prism tower. It also generally takes absurd damage to die from the floor. It's true that it might make gimps slightly worse, but Jiggs isn't 100% gimps anymore, Bair has kill power.

Jumping over the cars might actually be the worst option for Little Mac, especially compared to his absolutely absurd Slip Counter. That thing is monstrous: it lasts freaking forever, he's intangible for the entire counterattack, and the defensive collision that triggers Little Mac's counterattack is bigger than his hurtbox so you can't even whiff an attack to bait a failed counter. The Slip Counter returns him to neutral pretty quickly while also possibly dealing damage to an opponent, while jumping leaves him in the air and vulnerable.

 

[Terotrous]

Jumping over the cars might actually be the worst option for Little Mac, especially compared to his absolutely absurd Slip Counter. That thing is monstrous: it lasts freaking forever, he's intangible for the entire counterattack, and the defensive collision that triggers Little Mac's counterattack is bigger than his hurtbox so you can't even whiff an attack to bait a failed counter. The Slip Counter returns him to neutral pretty quickly while also possibly dealing damage to an opponent, while jumping leaves him in the air and vulnerable.

Well yeah, I mean it's the best in general. It's clearly a horrible option for Little Mac.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

That's not really true though. If you look at PM's stage list, there's plenty of potentially viable stages that are not allowed simply because they want to create a concise and varied set of stages that lacks redundancy.

Every stage you put into the legal list affects DSR and stage striking. If we put in both Prism Tower and Rainbow Road, a character who is good at sharking now has two similar stages that let them shark. Now, perhaps if there were more valid "battlefield-type" stages that might be fine, but looking at the stage list right now I don't think there's really room for another one. It's open to some debate, but I'd want to hear a good reason for including Rainbow Road beyond "it might be playable and there are so few other playable stages".

And I strongly dislike that about PM's stage list and it's a huge part of why I don't play it. There are differences between the two stages and certain characters or players might have a preference for one or the other. I don't think banning a stage from play because there's a stage similar to it is the correct choice of action, at all. Something shouldn't be made illegal and removed from play unless it presents a clear problem.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Add in Fruit and random exploding coconuts on a stage which is basically just FD anyway and I really see no reason to include it.

Also it's not basically just FD, there are platforms on it. I agree that it's too disruptive from where I'm looking at it but FD it ain't.

 

[SonicZeroX]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet but on Tortimer Island, the ledge that does not have the dock is ungrabbable, which could be problematic for some characters.

 

[Piford]

As of now, with no way to turn off certain things in single player, I feel like this is a pretty good (albeit conservative) Doubles stage list:

NEUTRALS:
-Battlefield
-Final Destination/Omega Stages
-Jungle Japes
-Tomodachi Life
-Yoshi's Island

COUNTERPICKS:
-Arena Ferox
-Prism Tower
-Rainbow Road
-Jungle Japes

Feelin a solid 2 stage bans for winner on this.

You listed Jungle Japes twice.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Dont see why spirit tracks is banned, it's not the same nonsense as Big blue and is pretty much stable. Mute city is also decent.
Why would anyone advocate for Rainbow Road its trash. Prism tower is perfect. Also as far as I can tell even if y ou lock-on to greninja his Side B doesn't indicate its telegraph on any 2d stage. Id assume this would make 2d Omega's autobanned due to the information loss unless Im missing something.

 

[Piford]

Dont see why spirit tracks is banned, it's not the same nonsense as Big blue and is pretty much stable. Mute city is also decent.
Why would anyone advocate for Rainbow Road its trash. Prism tower is perfect. Also as far as I can tell even if y ou lock-on to greninja his Side B doesn't indicate its telegraph on any 2d stage. Id assume this would make 2d Omega's autobanned due to the information loss unless Im missing something.

No stage is technically banned yet. Spirit Train was almost a great stage, but the bomb car can go on the train and blow the whole thing up. It a very intrusive hazards that near impossible to avoid and basically kills both players. Greninja's side B shouldn't indicate whether or not we ban stages.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Is there a proc for it as i've seen the bomb car yet have not witnessed an explosion.
I've yet to see that there is enough value in keeping the 2d Omega's over removing abnormal advantages.

 

[Piford]

Is there a proc for it as i've seen the bomb car yet have not witnessed an explosion.
I've yet to see that there is enough value in keeping the 2d Omega's over removing abnormal advantages.

I think it's random but I'm not sure.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

From what Ive seen the bomb car appears with its behind flashing to indicate the danger. My initial assumption is that someone hit/touched it if you saw an explosion.

Edit: lol first tip I get as I enter a game is Spiit train: keep an eye on the darkt rain it will jump before it explodes something something random

sitting in a 1 stock room...it appeared again, blew itself up the train however was fine.


Nvm Finally saw it. Theres a huge warning, the train flashes red for a bit then jumps up. A second to 2 seconds later it will plant itself in the middle fo the map on top of the train, continues to flash for maybe 2-3s ant then it blows itself up. You have its initial appearance, it's leap into the air, its descent and then final flashes all as queues for you. However I assume the train doesn't always plant itself in the middle. There is a blue arrow indicating where it will fall.

From Primagames:
If a damaged train appears in front of or behind the main train, stay away from it. Sometimes it explodes and disappears, other times it lands on the train, then explodes. When it lands on the train, move toward the engine to avoid damage from the explosion. After it explodes on top of the train, only the engine remains for a short time before the rest of the train is reset. In addition, if a second engine appears behind the train, move toward it. This indicates that the screen is about to move the other direction, pushing the main engine off-screen.

 

[DrLobster]

You listed Jungle Japes twice.

Wow, fail. Yeah, that counterpick Jungle Japes should be Reset Bomb Forest.

 

[popsofctown]

I really really really want to see full list stage striking for this game. There's too many characteristics that work differently in different matchups for it to be right to arbitrarily declare some things "neutral" and others not. To Little Mac, neutral means an average number of platforms. To Meta Knight, it means an average ability to shark. To Palutena it means an average ceiling. To the wall clingers it changes meaning for something to be neutral yet again, etc.

 

[popo12]

Another issue I've noticed with Spirit Tracks is that you can feasibly camp the cow catcher. Standing on the cow catcher puts you underneath the headlamp, which makes it difficult to approach you from above. Since you have the only foothold (I'm not sure larger characters can even do this), and getting ran over by the train does damage, it's going to be very difficult for your opponent to approach you at all. I think the dark car from behind can kill you if you stay, but it seems random and it can be a very long time before it appears if it does at all.

I have a couple of questions about some of the stage lists I've been seeing people floating around on here. First, why Jungle Japes? I hated it in Brawl and I don't see anything that's really changed here. The water is almost as bad as Big Blue for killing you the moment you touch it, and Klaptraps are strong and, as far as I know, random. I'm seeing everybody putting it up as a solid counterpick, and I'm really curious as to why.

Second, why no Pictochat 2? I haven't played the stage a whole lot since I assumed it would be terrible, but after playing it a while I'm pretty surprised by how not terrible it is. The transformations and hazards weren't too terrible in Brawl for the most part, and I haven't seen anything here that screams ban at me. I haven't seen any damaging hazards as strong as Pictochat 1's spikes or missiles, and while there are some weird walls/floors, they don't seem as bad as Brawl's and they don't seem to last very long at all. I'm sure I'm missing something terrible about it, so what is it?

Edit:
Okay, I'm bored, so here's the list I've been thinking of. Keep in mind that I'm a scrub so my opinions are probably worthless.

Neutral
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island

Neutral/Counterpick
Tomodachi Life
Prism Tower

Counterpick
Arena Ferox
Reset Bomb Forest
Rainbow Road

Counterpick/Banned
Brinstar
Unova Pokemon League
Mute City
Tortimer Island
Corneria
Pictochat 2

Banned
Remaining normal stages plus all omegas

I think the first three stages are pretty clear neutrals. Prism Tower and Tomodachi Life are stages that seem to me like they could be neutral, especially Tomodachi Life. My problem is that I think the transformations on Prism Tower, especially the beginning one that launches it, could screw some characters over hard enough to keep it from really being neutral. In that case, Tomodachi Life would be counterpick to preserve and odd number of neutrals.

I feel that the three counterpicks are pretty solid counterpicks, although Reset Bomb and Ferox have some shenanigans. I feel like Reset Bomb's transformation could lead to some weird, campy, play, and the walls will definitely be saving some people. That said the walls go down fairly easily if the fighting becomes focused around them, and I think Lurchthorn is predictable and tame enough to not really be a concern.

When I first played Ferox at Best Buy, I thought it was going to be like Pokemon Stadium 1. Now I think it's more like Pokemon Stadium 1 if the transformations were grass and three fires. The statue transformation is perfectly fine, and the chained platform stage is fine for a temporary transformation. The transformations with the solid ceilings, especially the ones overhanging the ledges, concern me though. I still think it's a pretty solid counterpick right now, but it's still not as good as I hoped.

I think the biggest issue with Rainbow Road is whether it's redundant with Prism Tower, and I really don't think it is. Nearly all of its layouts are completely different from anything that Prism Tower offers, and it I think it has a different feel to it. Personally, I don't see why Dreamland and Battlefield and Yoshi's Story and Fountain of Dreams can all be legal in Melee/PM but Rainbow Road and Prism Tower can't both be legal here.

The counterpick/banned stages are stages that I think arguments can be made for, but have more significant issues. Brinstar's acid is disruptive, but it's predictable and doesn't kill until fairly late. I think it's a fine counterpick against zoners, but the acid might eventually prove to be too frustrating. Unova's hazards are fairly tame and easy to avoid; even when Reshiram bombs center stage it will probably just end up with both players having to wait it out like PS1's rock stage. Mute City has a neat layout and its hazards are mostly predictable. My concerns are that the track kills fairly early, there are no ledges (which might not be that bad in practice, but does feel bad to me), and the ceiling that appears above the energy strip seems to occur randomly. I personally enjoy this stage a lot, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to be legal.

Tortimer is another stage I really like that I think may have too many issues to actually be legal. I like the random layout gimmick, but I feel like that prevents it from being an interesting counterpick choice. If you pick it for fruit and get no trees, what do you do? Most of the hazards are tame, and their spawns are fairly predictable. I don't know if the fruit is on a timer, but players at least have knowledge of where it will spawn and can position themselves accordingly. My concerns are that the beehive and exploding fruit will just bee too strong. I have no idea when the exploding fruit actually kills since its so rare; my argument to defend it would be that players should treat it as if it were always explosive, but I'm not sure how much water that actually holds. I haven't seen much from the beehive either, but it seems to stick around for a long time and really limits the player it chooses to stick to the most.

I think without wall infinites this is the best Corneria has been, but there are already some weird glitches that have been found, and I'm not convinced that people can't camp the tail effectively yet. The fin's shape makes it easier to hole up in than just a flat wall, and having your back to the fin makes you harder to KO (if you tech at least) while putting your opponent pretty darn close to the death boundary. I'm not a huge fan of it, but I'm not sure it's an outright ban just yet.

I don't really feel like talking about most of the ban stages in this already too long post, but I will explain the omegas. The omegas are too similar to Final Destination to provide any interesting advantages or disadvantages over it, but they're too dissimilar to lump together. Even if all of the walled ones were the same and all of the non-walled ones were the same, I don't think wall/no wall makes a big enough difference to warrant a player having to spend another ban on a stage that plays identically to FD for like 90% of the match.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Haven't tested it here yet but in Brawl Claptraps were on a ten second timer and easy to predict. I didn't really approve of banning it, though now the absence of swimming might change things.

Edit: Also, Pictochat one had a "safe zone" that could be controled to avoid almost all of the hazards, supporting strong stage control. As far as I can tell Picto2's hazards are more disrupting.

 

[popo12]

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I'm still not a fan of Jungle Japes, but it's good to know what the reasoning behind it being legal is. I didn't know about the safe zone on Pictochat 1 either, but I'm not sure the lack of that is enough to ban 2. That said, I think it's probably closer to a ban than not.

 

[Piford]

Haven't tested it here yet but in Brawl Claptraps were on a ten second timer and easy to predict. I didn't really approve of banning it, though now the absence of swimming might change things.

Edit: Also, Pictochat one had a "safe zone" that could be controled to avoid almost all of the hazards, supporting strong stage control. As far as I can tell Picto2's hazards are more disrupting.

Jungle Japes is basically the same as it is in melee. The water is basically an KO, especially from the left side, and klaptrap is random. It is definitely not good as a legal stage. Characters with good projectile and gimping game have a huge advantage on it. It also has a really high ceiling, which makes vertical kills much harder to pull off; not like that matters since almost every kill will be to the water.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I won't argue with the camping/gimping thing, but the high ceiling isn't something I'd call a problem. That just makes it a solid counterpick.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Rather play that coin stage then Japes. Wtf is with that water.

 

[popsofctown]

Japes is one of those stages you naturally hate but should actually be legal. Changing the payoff for gimp kills is no different from changing the pay off for upsmash kills with changing ceiling heights.

 

[M15t3R E]

So what's generally the rule on omega stages? How about Omega form stages are only able to be chosen as counterpicks?

 

[popo12]

Japes is one of those stages you naturally hate but should actually be legal. Changing the payoff for gimp kills is no different from changing the pay off for upsmash kills with changing ceiling heights.

I feel like the water is still a bit extreme though. The thing that makes gimps entertaining and fun to do is that it takes skill to keep your opponent from coming back. On Jungle Japes you basically just knock them off and they're screwed because that stage kills you about the second you hit the water, and the water isn't far from the stage.

I think the water in conjunction with the dtage layout makes it really campy too. Hiding on a side platform and trying to keep yout opponent off it works great since they can die at any percent if they screw their approach up.

 

[Piford]

So what's generally the rule on omega stages? How about Omega form stages are only able to be chosen as counterpicks?

Omega is the same as FD. The few small difference aren't enough to warrant them being different stages.

 

[popsofctown]

I feel like the water is still a bit extreme though. The thing that makes gimps entertaining and fun to do is that it takes skill to keep your opponent from coming back. On Jungle Japes you basically just knock them off and they're screwed because that stage kills you about the second you hit the water, and the water isn't far from the stage.

I think the water in conjunction with the dtage layout makes it really campy too. Hiding on a side platform and trying to keep yout opponent off it works great since they can die at any percent if they screw their approach up.

It's a low floor stage. You could say the same thing about low ceiling stages. "The thing that makes juggling so entertaining and fun to do is that it takes skill to keep your opponent from coming down. On Halberd you basically just knock them up and they're screwed because that stage kills you about the second you hit the blastzone, and the blastzone isn't far from the stage".

If you want to say the stage tests skill a little bit less than battlefield, you're probably right. But no one wants to play in a battlefield only stagelist (well, I do, but I'll never get it, so I settle for working to keep liberal stagelists internally consistent).

It's not fair to treat a low floor stage so much differently so a low ceiling stage, even though there is some tendency towards doing that since low floor stages are so much more rare.

 

[guedes the brawler]

About Omegas: i think we should do it like this

1- Keep FD as the only starter "flat" stage.
2- Allow Omegas from round 2
3- Whoever is choosing stages cannot choose Omegas, only FD... because after they decide on FD, the other player who is forced to play there can choose wich omega they want; if they don't care about it, they can let the guy who choose FD choose the Omega... or go to Random anyways.

Let's be realistically there. pillar or platform, 2d or 3D... these aren't why one wants or not to go to FD. These things have impacts, but they aren't as massive as the attributes shared by all omegas: flat ground with no platforms. So throw the guy who is forced to play there a bone.

MAking omegas have their own slot will over-centralize the game to FD. especially if we only have 4 other options that aren't flat ground. People who like FD will be buffed by our choice and hose who do not, will get nerfed.


AS forother stages: we should run tournaments testing various stages. People argue Gaur Plains has walk-offs and that is ban-worthy? let's put that to test! People say the flying man on MAgicant is too fragile to be significant? Let's try it out.

Game's new, and if we are ignoring these stages from the getgo, how would we know if they were truly too harmful to be worthy of tourneys? A few stages that are SUPER gimmicky, like Gerudo Valley o Boxing Rin, i think those can be passed with no testing, but others like Mute City or Tortimer Island require... deserve some testing.

if they don't work, well... we gain nothign from it besides some skewed early tourneys. if we find worthwhile stages, we are only making the game deeper and more interesting for everyone.

 

[MaxThunder]

Starters:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Prism Tower
... and there isn't really any more stages i feel should be a starter so i'll leave this spot blank for now...

Counterpicks:

Arena Ferox
Gaur Plain
Reset Bomb Forest: though i don't like how you can't grab edges on the right platform of the bottom of the transformation... and it seems hard to grab the ledges of the left and middle one sometimes...

Maybe:

Mute City: I haven't played on this much but it might work well enough...
Tortimer Island: I do like this stage and i'm ok with the random layout, but it is rather larger and the lack of a ledge on one side is worrying... Maybe for doubles...
Tomodachi Life: Might be useable but i'd rather not have it on 'cause of it's large size... Maybe for doubles...

Banned: only gonna mention a few i've seen other people put as starters or counterpicks...

Paper Mario: the wiiiiiind=(... also the bowser head...
Brinstar: Never really liked this stage... the acid feels too intrusive to me and now it seems the stage splits apart really quickly...
Spirit Train: Really wanted to have this in but all the stuff happening and the layout of the stage is just a bit too much imo...
Corneria: the shape is kinda weird to play on and you may randomly be killed by lasers from off-screen...
Jungle Japes: oh glob wtf where they thinking!!! the water was annoying enough before but now it's pretty much instant death o.O!!! kill it with sharp, pointy, fiery sticks i say...
Rainbow Road: just... no...


Not sure what to do with omega stages...