Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Piford]

Thanks for the constructive criticism and suggestions!

Out of those stages I'd be willing to keep

• Kongo Jungle 64
• Skyloft
• Castle Siege
• Duck Hunt
• Pilotwings
• Wuhu Island

I think Big Battlefield is too big for 1v1s later on during the tourney, Delfino Plaza has one transformation with the pillars that greatly benefits some characters over others, Halberd has some hazards that will get some guys on my case, and Orbital is really beneficial to characters with good air game.

Also, is there a video with all the transformations for Skyloft? And can I get an opinion (positive and negative) on Wooly World?

Apparently I've been summoned.

So the thing is, every stage will benefit some characters over another. And the best part about stages like Delphino is that no one transformation last too long, so it's hard to really abuse any major benefits it will give you.

Wooly World should be fine because it last hazards and the layout, while odd, doesn't require too much navigation from platform to platform, they all pretty close together.

Halberds hazards are laughably bad at mattering in a match unless one player specifically tries to use them. Like if the very slow moving bomb is falling, its so easy to avoid that you will only get hit if someone throws you into it.

For orbital gate, again with all stages giving an advantage. Your not going to ban Final Destination for giving a huge advantage to characters with better ground game (Little Mac) or with great projectile game (Link, Samus, ect). Also despite how it looks, you can keep up with the stage simply by standing still, and doesn't require jumping from platform to platform that much.

Edit: Looks like someone beat me to Delphino and Halberd.

 

[SpaceJell0]

Apparently I've been summoned.

So the thing is, every stage will benefit some characters over another. And the best part about stages like Delphino is that no one transformation last too long, so it's hard to really abuse any major benefits it will give you.

Wooly World should be fine because it last hazards and the layout, while odd, doesn't require too much navigation from platform to platform, they all pretty close together.

Halberds hazards are laughably bad at mattering in a match unless one player specifically tries to use them. Like if the very slow moving bomb is falling, its so easy to avoid that you will only get hit if someone throws you into it.

For orbital gate, again with all stages giving an advantage. Your not going to ban Final Destination for giving a huge advantage to characters with better ground game (Little Mac) or with great projectile game (Link, Samus, ect). Also despite how it looks, you can keep up with the stage simply by standing still, and doesn't require jumping from platform to platform that much.

Edit: Looks like someone beat me to Delphino and Halberd.

While you make good points, I think I should wait and try out multiple matchups on Wooly World and Orbital Gate. I want to see how characters with bad recoveries fair when the stage transforms. If it's not too severe for both, then I'll include them.

 

[Piford]

While you make good points, I think I should wait and try out multiple matchups on Wooly World and Orbital Gate. I want to see how characters with bad recoveries fair when the stage transforms. If it's not too severe for both, then I'll include them.

Well for wooly world, testing it seems fine.

For orbital gate you don't need a recovery to stay with them look at this

They stay with the stage by standing still.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Windy Hill Zone looks WAY too big. Those guys could have picked different characters and seriously abused that size way more. I don't think that's going to be okay outside of doubles.

But on that note, the subreddit TOs have been trying to work out a stagelist for a big smash wii u extravaganza we plan to host the Sunday after release. This is what we have thus far. It's not FLSS but it's what we could make work for now. However we have been discussing the starter list and figure Duck Hunt/Final Destination and Lylat Cruise/ Pilot Wings may be a bit similar to keep both on and have been wondering if some more dynamic stages could be used and have them moved around. Castle Siege, Delphino Plaza, and Pokemon Stadium 2 (hazard dependent) were discussed as alternatives. Thoughts on the list in general?

(It even has stages we plan on testing in another science event.)

This looks like a pretty good list. And the testing list also looks great. I'm glad you added wrecking crew in the testing section. I hope you guys get good results.

However, I would like to point out, that I recall that miiverse won't be available on release.

 

[SpaceJell0]

Well for wooly world, testing it seems fine.

For orbital gate you don't need a recovery to stay with them look at this

They stay with the stage by standing still.

Wow! Never noticed that, it certainly looks more viable now. But I'll still test it, those gaps on the alien ships are rather worrying.

 

[Piford]

Wow! Never noticed that, it certainly looks more viable now. But I'll still test it, those gaps on the alien ships are rather worrying.

Well there only temporary (also there called arwings). And the way they rotate, you could walk from one to another if you play it right.

 

[SpaceJell0]

Well there only temporary (also there called arwings). And the way they rotate, you could walk from one to another if you play it right.

That's true, I'll strongly consider Orbital then, it'll probablt be on the stagelist too.

EDIT: Whoops! No not the Arwings, the Aparoid ships I mean, there's a gap behind them

Thanks for all your help with this @ Piford & @ Nintendrone & @ ParanoidDrone

 

[LiteralGrill]

This looks like a pretty good list. And the testing list also looks great. I'm glad you added wrecking crew in the testing section. I hope you guys get good results.

However, I would like to point out, that I recall that miiverse won't be available on release.

Well thank you! I just had it mentioned so we could talk about ti amongst TOs. We'll have a prettier looking ruleset come Sunday

 

[Piford]

Flatzone 1 confirmed. Another stage to add to the banned list.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Flatzone 1 confirmed. Another stage to add to the banned list.

Pic of the day:

Flat zone 1 returns, but now there are a few changes. like the duck hunt stage, the borders are now pits, and no longer we have falling tools.


...

 

[Elegant]

Pic of the day:

Flat zone 1 returns, but now there are a few changes. like the duck hunt stage, the borders are now pits, and no longer we have falling tools.


...

Flat Zone Friendlies :D

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Flatzone 1 confirmed. Another stage to add to the banned list.

Are the characters...G&W style silhouettes? That would actually be a fun gimmick, ignoring the rest of the stage.

 

[Piford]

Pic of the day:

Flat zone 1 returns, but now there are a few changes. like the duck hunt stage, the borders are now pits, and no longer we have falling tools.


...

that's be nice.

 

[smashmachine]

I'd be interested in repeating that stage legality poll with the players that enter Apex 2015 for Smash 4 lol

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm not entirely convinced that's real; what's the actual source?

 

[Piford]

I'm not entirely convinced that's real; what's the actual source?

 

[guedes the brawler]

as if Kalos League didn't need anything else, especially on the steel part... in this video below, we can see that the Swords are actually walls. oh god.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWo70n_2Q0M&feature=youtu.be&t=2m13s

 

[Nintendrone]

as if Kalos League didn't need anything else, especially on the steel part... in this video below, we can see that the Swords are actually walls. oh god.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWo70n_2Q0M&feature=youtu.be&t=2m13s

It's been known for a while that the swords are walls and that hitting them makes them recede into the floor; not really a problem. The stage got into ban territory when people started finding legendaries that can randomly appear. Rayquaza in dragon can fly by, warned by an aesthetic static; annoying but tolerable. Manaphy in water turns the main floor into a whirlpool; again, annoying but tolerable. Registeel makes the swords spin off the ground, resetting their position, as well as burying grounded characters; this one is total bs that pretty much single-handedly kills the stage. There's an unknown legendary in fire. So yeah, this stage was cool until Registeel came in.

 

[guedes the brawler]

It's been known for a while that the swords are walls and that hitting them makes them recede into the floor; not really a problem. The stage got into ban territory when people started finding legendaries that can randomly appear. Rayquaza in dragon can fly by, warned by an aesthetic static; annoying but tolerable. Manaphy in water turns the main floor into a whirlpool; again, annoying but tolerable. Registeel makes the swords spin off the ground, resetting their position, as well as burying grounded characters; this one is total bs that pretty much single-handedly kills the stage. There's an unknown legendary in fire. So yeah, this stage was cool until Registeel came in.

i know the new hazards... this is why i said "especially in the Steel part"

 

[MrGame&Rock]

are we actually getting flat zone 1 and 2? That's actually amazing, if incredibly redundant

 

[Launcecraft]

So have we actually reached a conclusion to the Kalos Pokemon League's viability?

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

So have we actually reached a conclusion to the Kalos Pokemon League's viability?

I wouldn't call it a conclusion because everything does need to be tested, but it's pretty safe to say that it will be banned. There is basically no hope for it.

 

[Launcecraft]

I wouldn't call it a conclusion because everything does need to be tested, but it's pretty safe to say that it will be banned. There is basically no hope for it.

Personally, I really want it to be legal, but I could understand why it could be banned.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

We should probably say hope is pretty thin, not completely gone. Here are basically the issues:

-The stage has numerically a very large array of hazards. Most of them are not very dangerous, but you will spend a very large percentage of the match dealing with some hazard or another.
-Both the fire and the steel forms seem incredibly likely to lend themselves to stall-outs.
-Sometimes legendary Pokemon appear instead of the normal forms. Rayquaza doesn't seem too bad, but Manaphy and Registeel seem quite problematic. Registeel nukes the ground with a grounding hitbox and turns the steel swords into massive spinning hitboxes over the stage. Manaphy basically removes the middle of the stage for a long time and appeared to spawn a smash ball, though we're not entirely clear on whether that really happened. There is probably a fire legendary that we haven't seen yet (Heatran is speculated, but it's a pure guess).

Right off the bat, if the Manaphy spawning a smash ball thing turns out to be valid, the stage is just gone since that's just unacceptable (and it's not obvious how that smash ball appeared in a match without items if not for some special stage action). Even if not, while I don't think any of those problems individually are really all that bad, adding them together would seem to create a stage that is very controversial at best. I think this stage is promising enough that we need to actually really dig into its mechanics and figure it out more precisely before we write it off, but there are a great number of better prospects that have transparently far fewer problems than this stage. Yes, it is unfortunate; it does indeed have all of the good Pokemon music, and it does indeed look really cool.

 

[Slyphoria]

Right off the bat, if the Manaphy spawning a smash ball thing turns out to be valid, the stage is just gone since that's just unacceptable (and it's not obvious how that smash ball appeared in a match without items if not for some special stage action).

There's a possibility that was a match with only Smash Balls on, and complete coincidence that they happened at the same time.

 

[Weldar]

As someone who's played a lot of casual matches on Smash 3ds with all items off except Smash Balls I can tell you that they still remain fairly rare. They average one Smash Ball over the course of a 3 stock 1v1 match. Now that video with a bit longer than the average 3 stock battle, but not so much so that seeing only one Smash Ball during it would be too unusual, especially considering Smash WiiU has an item frequency setting, it could have been only Smash Balls on set to low. Now given there was no visual cue to suggest Manaphy did anything when the Smash Ball showed up and there's no real thematic link between Manaphy and Smash Balls or super moves I'm gonna say Occam's Razor actually sugests it had nothing to do with Manaphy. Obviously that does still need to be actually tested and the stage has other problems but I find it very unlikely Manaphy spawning Smash Balls is going to be one of them

 

[Piford]

While Kalos still probably won't be legal, I'll say that manaphy definitely wont spawn smash balls. Not only does it not make any sense and manaphy did an animation, but usually stages that spawn items don't spawn them when Items are off. The exception are stages like Tortimer's Island and Distant Planet, which spawn there own unique items. Since the smash ball is obviously not unique, I don't think it'll spawn with items set to off and none. Also I've seen videos of people moving through the fire (I forget where sorry) so it might not lead to that much camping. Besides that, I think all the hazards together are borderline, but registeel pushes it over the edge. Also the fire has to be Heatran of Ho-oh, because all the other fire legendaries are being used. I still think the fire one will be heatran and have laza erupt from the floor and have the two platforms be the only safe part, but thats speculation.

 

[Raziek]

I had to pause to think about what you guys meant about the part at the end before I realized it was Lucario teching the wall to live. I actually really liked that part as Croi had been exercising really great stage control for a long time near the end of that match, and he was using it to make sure that his own hits wouldn't be impeded by the wall while Raziek would have little choice but to hit toward it. That directly paid off as Croi had no real issue building damage quickly and scoring KOs when it was time while he was able to stretch his own stock as far as it could go. I saw him integrating a lot of good fundamental gameplay ideas with the stage geography there to make the win as decisive as possible, and it was pretty much what I always like to see in these kinds of games.

Ok, so talking about this...

I don't have problem with the walls interfering while stationary, I have a problem with them interfering while the stage is moving, like at 18:39 or 22:24 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDPImC5OQCo

That said, given the stage is consistent in layout/progression order, I'm doing my best to temper my salt about that particular match. We'll see how people feel about it in the long run, though.

Anyway, here are my thoughts that I promised a while ago:

100% Legal (13)

Battlefield / Miiverse
Town and City
Pilot Wings
Skyloft
Wuhu Island
Smashville
Kongo Jungle 64
Final Destination
Castle Siege
Halberd
Delfino
Lylat Cruise

Most Likely Legal (3)
Big Battlefield
Windy Hill
Wooly World

Big Battlefield - I have some concerns about the size, but like AA I think it's likely fine, just worth keeping an eye on
Windy Hill - I think people underestimate just how close the blast zones are on this stage. The ceiling in particular is QUITE low, and I don't think you can reasonably expect to be able to circle-camp it. Run away might be strong on it, but I doubt there is a circle
Wooly World - We'll have a set coming up closer to release (Croi has limits on what he can upload before then) where we played on it, and I actually think Wooly World is alright. The first transition is super huge, so there is almost certainly potential runaway. Second transition is extremely air-based, but I don't think you can circle camp it. Will require additional testing, but on a first play, seemed fine to me.

'Fine if Walk-offs are Fine' tier (3)
Mario Galaxy
Coliseum
Wii Fit Studio

Could be legal but people will complain IMMENSELY (3)
Mario Circuit
Pokemon Stadium 2
Norfair

Most likely Banned (10)
Mushroom Kingdom U - (**** Nabbit)
Luigi's Mansion
Jungle Hijinx
Skyworld
Wrecking Crew
Mario Circuit (Brawl)
Bridge of Eldin
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Onett
Pac-Land

100% Banned (11)
Kalos Pokemon League
Temple
Pyrosphere
Great Cave Offensive
Palutena's Temple
Boxing Ring
75m
Flat Zone 2
Gaur Plain
Gamer
Wily Castle

Stuff I haven't played yet (or enough) (4)
PTAD (apparently the hazards are weaker? If it's the same it can stay banned)
Duck Hunt
Orbital Gate Assault
Garden of Hope

My personal list comes to a likely 16, 19 if Walk-offs turn out to be okay. 22 if you can convince people to stop complaining about Norfair/PS2/Mario Circuit, but I don't have high hopes for the former 2. Possible prospect of adding Duck Hunt and OGA, I haven't played them enough yet.

Gotta run to do other stuff, so not expressly deep reasoning at the moment (feel free to ask questions), but that's where I stand at the moment.

@ Amazing Ampharos

 

[The_Altrox]

Duck Hunt stage looks alright, but what do I know. May be too similar to FD that people wouldn't want both, but idk

 

[Piford]

Ok, so talking about this...

I don't have problem with the walls interfering while stationary, I have a problem with them interfering while the stage is moving, like at 18:39 or 22:24 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDPImC5OQCo

That said, given the stage is consistent in layout/progression order, I'm doing my best to temper my salt about that particular match. We'll see how people feel about it in the long run, though.

Anyway, here are my thoughts that I promised a while ago:

100% Legal (13)

Battlefield / Miiverse
Town and City
Pilot Wings
Skyloft
Wuhu Island
Smashville
Kongo Jungle 64
Final Destination
Castle Siege
Halberd
Delfino
Lylat Cruise

Most Likely Legal (3)
Big Battlefield
Windy Hill
Wooly World

Big Battlefield - I have some concerns about the size, but like AA I think it's likely fine, just worth keeping an eye on
Windy Hill - I think people underestimate just how close the blast zones are on this stage. The ceiling in particular is QUITE low, and I don't think you can reasonably expect to be able to circle-camp it. Run away might be strong on it, but I doubt there is a circle
Wooly World - We'll have a set coming up closer to release (Croi has limits on what he can upload before then) where we played on it, and I actually think Wooly World is alright. The first transition is super huge, so there is almost certainly potential runaway. Second transition is extremely air-based, but I don't think you can circle camp it. Will require additional testing, but on a first play, seemed fine to me.

'Fine if Walk-offs are Fine' tier (3)
Mario Galaxy
Coliseum
Wii Fit Studio
Could be legal but people will complain IMMENSELY (3)
Mario Circuit
Pokemon Stadium 2
Norfair
Most likely Banned (10)
Mushroom Kingdom U - (**** Nabbit)
Luigi's Mansion
Jungle Hijinx
Skyworld
Wrecking Crew
Mario Circuit (Brawl)
Bridge of Eldin
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Onett
Pac-Land

100% Banned (11)
Kalos Pokemon League
Temple
Pyrosphere
Great Cave Offensive
Palutena's Temple
Boxing Ring
75m
Flat Zone 2
Gaur Plain
Gamer
Wily Castle
Stuff I haven't played yet (or enough) (4)
PTAD (apparently the hazards are weaker? If it's the same it can stay banned)
Duck Hunt
Orbital Gate Assault
Garden of Hope

My personal list comes to a likely 16, 19 if Walk-offs turn out to be okay. 22 if you can convince people to stop complaining about Norfair/PS2/Mario Circuit, but I don't have high hopes for the former 2. Possible prospect of adding Duck Hunt and OGA, I haven't played them enough yet.

Gotta run to do other stuff, so not expressly deep reasoning at the moment (feel free to ask questions), but that's where I stand at the moment.

@ Amazing Ampharos

So duck hunt is just really a flat stage with some platforms and occasionally one platform moves up, so there's nothing really wrong there.

Orbital Gate Assault only has very minor telegraphed hazards and the stage is 100% predictable. Since you can keep with the stage just by standing still, it should really be fine.

For PS2, Mario Circuit, Norfair, I think people could let them in once they realize that there not that bad. I think PS2 actually has a good chance since people love the standard layout, all the transformations are much better with the engine changes, and PS1 is seemingly gone (I think based on music but I'm not sure). Norfair is probably the hardest one to convince people to accept, but hopefully they can see the lava isn't really an issue. Mario Circuit seems to be pretty split between people who thinks its great and people who think its awful. To me it seems like the worst of the 3 and the hardest to defend. Some people think that wall infinites are still in, so teaching them that they're not will help this stages popularity probably.

Also why is Luigi's Mansion most likely banned? and Flatzone 1 is confirmed so you might want to add that to your list of 100% banned.

 

[Protom]

So has the fire legendary on kalos league been discovered yet?
Registeel already gives me doubts about the stage, but would be nice to know what the remaining hazard is..

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So has the fire legendary on kalos league been discovered yet?
Registeel already gives me doubts about the stage, but would be nice to know what the remaining hazard is..

It's almost certainly Heatran or Ho-oh since all the other fire legendaries are in Pokeballs, but I don't think anyone really knows.

 

[LiteralGrill]

100% Legal (13)

Battlefield / Miiverse
Town and City
Pilot Wings
Skyloft
Wuhu Island
Smashville
Kongo Jungle 64
Final Destination
Castle Siege
Halberd
Delfino
Lylat Cruise

So Kongo isn't going to be too big or campy or whatnot anymore? Seeing it being banned randomly in doubles for that Melee tournament has me wondering about it.

 

[Piford]

So Kongo isn't going to be too big or campy or whatnot anymore? Seeing it being banned randomly in doubles for that Melee tournament has me wondering about it.

Well apparently its a little smaller this time around so that should help.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Well apparently its a little smaller this time around so that should help.

The moving platforms also go higher, which may help circle camping issues.

 

[Kofu]

It's almost certainly Heatran or Ho-oh since all the other fire legendaries are in Pokeballs, but I don't think anyone really knows.

It could be Volcanion

To change the topic a bit (mainly because I haven't watched footage of most of the WiiU stages so I can't contribute but don't want this post to be spam), what are people's thoughts on the 3DS Gaur Plains? I think the general consensus is that it's to be banned, but personally I think it could be given a shot. There are no hazards and the layout is far different from any other stage. Recovery problems aren't really an issue since most of the lower platforms have grabbable ledges. I've heard concerns about the walkoffs, but they honestly don't seem like that big a deal. They're above the other platforms so camping there to try and get easy kills is more likely to get the camper punished. Running away seems like the biggest issue, since the center stage gap will make it hard for less mobile characters to catch noble ones if they want to play keep away. Maybe it would be alright for doubles since the extra players would mitigate the evasiveness problem.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It could be Volcanion

To change the topic a bit (mainly because I haven't watched footage of most of the WiiU stages so I can't contribute but don't want this post to be spam), what are people's thoughts on the 3DS Gaur Plains? I think the general consensus is that it's to be banned, but personally I think it could be given a shot. There are no hazards and the layout is far different from any other stage. Recovery problems aren't really an issue since most of the lower platforms have grabbable ledges. I've heard concerns about the walkoffs, but they honestly don't seem like that big a deal. They're above the other platforms so camping there to try and get easy kills is more likely to get the camper punished. Running away seems like the biggest issue, since the center stage gap will make it hard for less mobile characters to catch noble ones if they want to play keep away. Maybe it would be alright for doubles since the extra players would mitigate the evasiveness problem.

3DS Gaur Plain is only questionable in singles because of walkoffs and maybe circle camping, but apparently it's actually kind of hard to circle camp there so whatever. In doubles it should be fine.

But honestly starting Friday the 3DS version will be largely reduced to a side dish, so...yeah.

 

[Piford]

It could be Volcanion

To change the topic a bit (mainly because I haven't watched footage of most of the WiiU stages so I can't contribute but don't want this post to be spam), what are people's thoughts on the 3DS Gaur Plains? I think the general consensus is that it's to be banned, but personally I think it could be given a shot. There are no hazards and the layout is far different from any other stage. Recovery problems aren't really an issue since most of the lower platforms have grabbable ledges. I've heard concerns about the walkoffs, but they honestly don't seem like that big a deal. They're above the other platforms so camping there to try and get easy kills is more likely to get the camper punished. Running away seems like the biggest issue, since the center stage gap will make it hard for less mobile characters to catch noble ones if they want to play keep away. Maybe it would be alright for doubles since the extra players would mitigate the evasiveness problem.

Well It definitely can't be volcanion as he hasn't been officially revealed yet. (Not like which pokemon matters regarding stage legality)

Gaur Plains could be good but no one was willing to give it a chance and its a little late now. 3DS is hard to use for tournaments because of the interference that happens with so many of them.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Don't forget Arcanine! His species name is the Legendary Pokemon

As for Guar, circle camping is a huge issue in singles... So yeah.

 

[Raziek]

So Kongo isn't going to be too big or campy or whatnot anymore? Seeing it being banned randomly in doubles for that Melee tournament has me wondering about it.

Not a chance. It's smaller relative to the characters, and the platforms rise much higher than they did in Melee.