Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[ParanoidDrone]

Obligatory links for people who want to follow along with that little discussion but haven't played on Kalos, Gamer, or Yoshi's:

Kalos Pokemon League
Gamer
Yoshi's Island

I will say that as Rosalina I felt vaguely threatened by Rayquaza a few times just by standing there (seriously Rosalina is flipping tall) but crouching solved that instantly.

 

[Raijinken]

My first reaction after a few matches was, "Why is this banned, again?" I originally thought the dragon-type segment's explosions were considerably faster and more random, but I was wrong. Every single hazard is extremely telegraphed and easy to react to, trivial in scope, or both. If you get hit by something, it's either your fault for not paying attention or your fault for letting your opponent throw you into it. In like 10 matches neither of us could force the other into either Dragon hazard or the Water hazard once. I got hit by Registeel, but only because I didn't know what I was looking at. None of the hazards seem to have noteworthy kill power, except the water stage which is phenomenally telegraphed and does no damage.

The metal stage is probably what most people are going to get hung up on, but it's got really interesting counterplay. Being metal is actually a huge advantage over the opponent, especially because unlike in previous smash games, it's not trivial to just combo or chaingrab a metal character to death, so while you can camp it out, it's not a good idea, and the metal coat gives players who want to approach a great tool to get past the typically very strong positional advantage of "behind a wall". It can swing matches, but these swings are entirely dominated by Player vs. Player interaction - how the two players deal with the situation of someone (or both people) being temporarily almost impossible to KO. This is so cool. This kind of counterplay is hard to find elsewhere, and it really does create an interesting and unique, but not broken or degenerate gamestate. This is super cool.

Seriously, why is this banned? I have no idea.



I think that the way mom walks around the room kinda kills the match. You're forced to stop the match for a good 30+ seconds while she scans, and if someone has a decent projectile, it can get very unpleasant for their opponent *cough cough luma warp*. Oh, and it kills super early. When talking about hazards, kill %s really is an issue, because a hazard that kills at 30% means a situation where your opponent can force a kill at 30%, and thus super swingy, and in this case, you can't just stay away from the walkoff to avoid the problem. I died to mom at 20%. I don't think this stage would be viable even if it didn't have a hard circle half the time.



Nah, I'm done with that stage. It's probably the most fun anyone will ever have with Little Mac, but it's also kinda... ***. Like... wow. You know how Rosalina gets uair kills for free on Halberd? This stage pays Rosalina 10k a month to get uair kills. I think Ness probably kills Mewtwo off the left-side ledge at like 10%. It's just riddled with problems. Sad BPC is sad.

Glad to get your insight on Kalos finally, I've been waiting a long time for someone with some debate authority to give it more testing (in addition to ParanoidDrone's always excellent stage research).

I see a lot of people complain about the sinkpool Manaphy causes, but I think a lot of the stigma against it stems from the (apparently still somewhat widespread) impression that there is an OHKO hazard in the stage, when there simply isn't unless you count falling down a pit or getting pushed into the side wall by obvious (and far more esapable than Kongo) water.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Glad to get your insight on Kalos finally, I've been waiting a long time for someone with some debate authority to give it more testing (in addition to ParanoidDrone's always excellent stage research).

I see a lot of people complain about the sinkpool Manaphy causes, but I think a lot of the stigma against it stems from the (apparently still somewhat widespread) impression that there is an OHKO hazard in the stage, when there simply isn't unless you count falling down a pit or getting pushed into the side wall by obvious (and far more esapable than Kongo) water.

IIRC Manaphy only appeared once and we just fought on the side until it went away. It was really kind of easy to avoid, although it did put us closer to the blast zone on a walkoff.

 

[Raijinken]

IIRC Manaphy only appeared once and we just fought on the side until it went away. It was really kind of easy to avoid, although it did put us closer to the blast zone on a walkoff.

The two platforms are another option. Puts anyone without a spammable quick projectile at a disadvantage, and it (like so many others) is obnoxious for Little Mac.

But over-all, I think it's fair enough for a liberal ruleset.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I thought you can't die to Manaphy as there are ledges around the sink hole, and about half the cast can outrun the water anyway.

 

[Zajice]

I personally dig Kalos. It's just fun, and makes for an interesting match playing around everything. I love non-random stage hazards. Stage hazards are one of those unique aspects of Smash as a fighting game, and Kalos is one of the few stages to have them in a way that feels pretty fair. That one Bowser Castle stage with the thwomps in P:M, whatever it's called, I fell in love with the moment I saw it. I want more of that.

Interesting CPs are in short supply, since everyone is content with just playing on Smashville over and over. I'm absolutely sick of seeing Smashville.

 

[ぱみゅ]

You're not the only one.
Plus, Smashville DOES give a huge advantage to certain characters (like Diddy and Sheik) that apply lots of platform pressure, can extend combos with the platform going offstage, and/or have an aerial move with high knockback but won't kill too often, but it does if the platform is close to the blastzone.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I personally dig Kalos. It's just fun, and makes for an interesting match playing around everything. I love non-random stage hazards. Stage hazards are one of those unique aspects of Smash as a fighting game, and Kalos is one of the few stages to have them in a way that feels pretty fair. That one Bowser Castle stage with the thwomps in P:M, whatever it's called, I fell in love with the moment I saw it. I want more of that.

Interesting CPs are in short supply, since everyone is content with just playing on Smashville over and over. I'm absolutely sick of seeing Smashville.

This plus your sig might just made you one of my favorite people on Smashboards.

 

[Cenizas]

I'd like to ask for some advice, if I may. Our social is having a tournament and I'm trying to advocate for Brinstar and Mute City as legal 3ds stages. As of now the TO hasn't put up any argument against Brinstar other than "no", but for Mute City his complaints are

No lower blast zone
Allows for extended stalling
Floor can kill you at certain pcts

I'm already thinking that the third point already nullifies the first two, but I don't know where to go from there. Any tips?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yo gurl, tell your TO to man up. There are valid complaints about Brinstar, most people ban it under the terms of "I don't like it", or "lava is obtrusive", but it is only obtrusive if you don't know/learn the pattern and can't wait 2 seconds for it to go away.
And it isn't even lava, it's Acid.


As for Mute City, I personally like it a lot. though But it doesn't have ledges, and that's huge, though is a good counterplay against characters with bad horizontal mobility.

 

[TheGameCrewNerds]

here is a list of stages that could be allowed in tournaments.
(P.S. Ness, Wario glitch pached)

Neutral:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
(some people say Town and City should be neutral)

Counter Picks:

Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Whuhu Island
Castle seige
Duck Hunt
Town and City
Omega Stages
(some people say Skyloft and Pilot Wings should be legal)

So what are your thoughts, are there any stages i missed, and what is your view on custom stages in tourneys. I ould love to find out. Anyway 'till then.
This is TheGameCrewNerds signing out. Bye

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

here is a list of stages that could be allowed in tournaments.
(P.S. Ness, Wario glitch pached)

Neutral:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
(some people say Town and City should be neutral)

Counter Picks:

Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Whuhu Island
Castle seige
Duck Hunt
Town and City
Omega Stages
(some people say Skyloft and Pilot Wings should be legal)

So what are your thoughts, are there any stages i missed, and what is your view on custom stages in tourneys. I ould love to find out. Anyway 'till then.
This is TheGameCrewNerds signing out. Bye

Nobody says Pilotwings should be legal. It looks good and then you realize that it's a ridiculous campfest that gives a massive advantage to the player on defense. Skyloft belongs in the legal category, though. You also forgot Pokemon Stadium 2 and Kongo Jungle, and maybe Kalos League if you're feeling adventurous.

But beyond that, there's a more serious problem - your starter list. 3 starter is notoriously bad. It provides a huge advantage to characters like Shiek who would typically counterpick you to stages like Battlefield or Smashville, effectively giving them a counterpick in game one. Regardless of which starters you pick, you'll almost be certain to find some character who is good on 2/3 of them, and handed a huge advantage as a result. Not only that, but it grants the player who strikes first a huge disadvantage, as they often have to guess at which stage their opponent likes - if they guess wrong, it's like giving their opponent two strikes. And there's really no reason for it - there's no justification for a stage to be legitimate rounds 2 and 3 but not round 1. My advice? FLSS, or at least 9 starters or something.

 

[TheGameCrewNerds]

i see your point about pilot wings. how about

Neutral:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town and City
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
(maybe Kongo Jungle and Duck Hunt)

Counter Picks:

Delfino Plaza
Whuhu Island
Castle seige
Duck Hunt
Omega Stages
Skyloft
Pokemon Stadium 2
Kongo Jungle 64

Better

 

[Quickhero]

@ TheGameCrewNerds Halberd, as well as Duck Hunt and Kongo Jungle 64, will never become starters. Minus the fact that having an even number of starters would mean one character gets to ban 2 stages while the other gets to ban 3, those stages itself have mechanics that are just too much for a starter since it immensely favors a certain character. (Halberd has the transparent main platform, as well as the hazards on the third transformation. Duck Hunt has the tree, and KJ64 has the barrel and it's just a big stage in general.)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

i see your point about pilot wings. how about

Neutral:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town and City
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
(maybe Kongo Jungle and Duck Hunt)

Counter Picks:

Delfino Plaza
Whuhu Island
Castle seige
Duck Hunt
Omega Stages
Skyloft
Pokemon Stadium 2
Kongo Jungle 64

Better

If you guys are making your own ruleset, here's my recommendation:

Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination/Omega
Smashville
Town and City
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Whuhu Island
Castle seige
Duck Hunt
Skyloft
Pokemon Stadium 2
Kongo Jungle 64

...That's it. 13 starters, basically every potentially viable stage in the game, full list stage striking, none of this nonsensical "you can play this stage in game 3 but not game 1" crap...

Okay, so maybe it takes a while to strike 13 (we don't have that problem at my tournaments, but you might be skittish for no good reason). In that case, try this instead:

Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination/Omega
Smashville
Town and City
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Whuhu Island
Castle seige
Skyloft

Counterpick:
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2
Kongo Jungle 64
Duck Hunt
Kalos Pokemon League
Mario Kart 8

Pretty great, adds a few more solid counterpicks.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You forgot Kalos Pokemon League. <.<

 

[Quickhero]

@ Budget Player Cadet_ Anything wrong by going with a 15 stage strike list? This is just because I find Kalos Pokemon League worth trying out and MK8 is a pretty good stage imo. I noticed you left MK8 banned on the former stage and not on the latter so I was just wondering if you can make it 15 if you add another stage.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Budget Player Cadet_ Anything wrong by going with a 15 stage strike list? This is just because I find Kalos Pokemon League worth trying out and MK8 is a pretty good stage imo. I noticed you left MK8 banned on the former stage and not on the latter so I was just wondering if you can make it 15 if you add another stage.

It's best if the number of stages fits the formula 4x + 1 so the same player strikes first and last. Although larger numbers in general may mitigate the issue anyway, I'm not sure.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@ Budget Player Cadet_ Anything wrong by going with a 15 stage strike list? This is just because I find Kalos Pokemon League worth trying out and MK8 is a pretty good stage imo. I noticed you left MK8 banned on the former stage and not on the latter so I was just wondering if you can make it 15 if you add another stage.

Nothing wrong with it, per se, but I get enough **** for 13 starters, 15 just seems like begging for disaster. If you can get away with it, do it! :D

 

[TheGameCrewNerds]

aome omega stages can be biased so they should be counter picks

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

aome omega stages can be biased so they should be counter picks

Every stage is biased in one direction or another. There is no "true neutral".

 

[Nintendrone]

@ Quickhero What PD said. In your case, upping your list to 17 stages would be preferable to lowering it to 13. Here's some suggestions to add to BPC's list if you're feeling liberal:

• Mario Circuit (MK8): The only problem this stage has is its lethal ceiling glitches.
• Luigi's Mansion: Caves of life are dealt with by destroying the mansion, giving them a strategic element. Its large size may not be optimal for singles, however.
• Norfair: The hazards are totally fine, and I feel that they actually improve the stage because of its layout. Because the action can crowd into a tiny area, I don't recommend this for doubles.
• Orbital Gate Assault: All hazards and platforms follow an exact pattern every time. It can be kinda crowded for doubles, however.
• Kalos Pokémon League: Its hazards aren't that bad, except for Registeel being extremely annoying. The hazards crowd the stage, so I don't recommend it for doubles.
• Windy Hill Zone: Curved gravity is no problem, and you just have to respect the springs. Its large size may be too big for singles, though.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

aome omega stages can be biased so they should be counter picks

There is no feature on any Omega stage that will polarize a matchup like the lack of plats.

Adding more FD's for stuff like Grass and Walls would just make everyone carry a pocket Mac for CP

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I can't shake the feeling we're in the wrong thread...

I don't think there's an issue with the stage outside of the fact that it's really large. The blast zones are huge. Though to make an objective stance on this, I'd prefer to test and compare.

Wuhu's blastzones are actually fairly average, for the most part. The ceiling is extremely mundane, at least during most segments; the blastzones to the left and right of the stage are only large when you factor in its overall length. From my experience, people don't live that much longer there. Sure, it's kind of slow and campy, but is that really a reason to ban a stage? Why?

On another note, I am thinking about creating a thread for it later much in the same way I did for Lylat Cruise, but I'm refraining from doing so until I have more experience with the stage...what do people think about Mario Circuit?

After playing on Wuhu, Skyloft, and Pilotwings, I do not feel they are tournament viable (need more experience with Skyloft) for a variety of reasons. I dismissed Mario Circuit ages ago because of the glitches that could easily kill players without considering the validity of the stage itself, but those problems are gone now. After playing a few matches on it, it honestly feels great.

As said on multiple previous occasions, Mario Circuit, to me at least, belongs firmly in the "Why the hell is this banned" category. Sure, it's got some moving hazards, but most of them are completely predictable - the platform always follows the same pattern along the track, meaning that if you can memorize a handful of locations (almost all of which are stops or clearly discernible), you know where all those hitboxes are. The cars are, on most segments, completely harmless, and in any case, they're announced for ages in advance, leading to interesting PvPvS interactions. They also have a hell of a time killing.

Then there's the glitch. The ceiling KO glitch is real. However - it requires incredibly precise timing and knockback to get right, and works on only one part of the stage. Executing it is virtually impossible, and the counterplay is as simple as "avoid getting hit by one of a precise handful of moves when passing exactly that part of the stage". Which, despite some protestations, is not too much to ask. It doesn't even belong in the same category as the Wuhu Boat Glitch - it's like, even more ludicrously impossible to pull off.

 

[Ulevo]

Mario Circuit's ceiling glitch is gone now. Just want to point that out.

 

[Cenizas]

So I got Brinstar and Mute City legalized. Yay.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Mario Circuit's ceiling glitch is gone now. Just want to point that out.

Huh, just checked the patch thread, it's not there, but if that's true then there's really no reason to even think of banning the stage.

 

[Ulevo]

Huh, just checked the patch thread, it's not there, but if that's true then there's really no reason to even think of banning the stage.

I recall someone posting about it. I haven't tested to verify myself, so if you want to do that then feel free. However it would seem likely since there were a lot of other bugs for stages that were fixed, such as with Wuhu and Lylat, and this would be consistent with that.

 

[Quickhero]

How unhealthy do you guys think the walk-offs as the beginning and the third part of Yoshi's Woolly World are? I find Norfair to be such an unhealthy stage because the lava is actually really easy to force the opponent to be forced to getting hit by and Sonic/Pikachu have a field-run with this stage since they can just completely run around the platforms.

Yoshi's Woolly World seems like the next most balanced stage imo and I would love to see opinions on it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

How unhealthy do you guys think the walk-offs as the beginning and the third part of Yoshi's Woolly World are? I find Norfair to be such an unhealthy stage because the lava is actually really easy to force the opponent to be forced to getting hit by and Sonic/Pikachu have a field-run with this stage since they can just completely run around the platforms.

Yoshi's Woolly World seems like the next most balanced stage imo and I would love to see opinions on it.

I wouldn't mind playing there, but I also wouldn't mind playing on Kalos or Gamer so...yeah. I'm hardly unbiased.

 

[Ulevo]

Wooly World would be a terrible legal stage in my opinion. The transition where the base of the stage leaves is incredibly difficult for characters with poor aerial options and agility. As a Meta Knight player I'd have a field day abusing characters with poor ledge and recovery options while running around and away from them.

 

[ぱみゅ]

And so I got someone to gentleman to Kalos Pokémon League.
It was amazing and incredibly funny, but I messed with the Steel transformation so much I got 150% by the time it finished and dealt practically no damage.
I promise I'll be more serious about it next time.


On another note, I had never played on Skyloft before, and still managed to avoid hazards, worked around its layout, and even made attacks follow unique directions (as villager). Amazing stuff.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Woolly World is broken. I say this as someone who is trying to legalize MK8 and Kalos; WW just doesn't work. No matter how you slice it, the stage has a significant hard circle with the rocket as the obstacle. You will never catch a Pikachu on that stage. Ever. No character has anywhere near the mobility needed to catch him as he QACs around.

 

[dav3yb]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone had issues on Skyloft clipping through the stage? It happened to a friend of mine when we were playing a bit a while back, and it might be fixed at this point, but when the floating platform was lowering to one of the transitions, it pushed him through the stage with the platform, also note he was grabbing the ledge of the floating platform during the transition. I don't see it as a major issue, but the might be worth noting.

Also, what are the chances of getting custom stages into competitive lists now that we have a decent hub to share and download them?

 

[Piford]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone had issues on Skyloft clipping through the stage? It happened to a friend of mine when we were playing a bit a while back, and it might be fixed at this point, but when the floating platform was lowering to one of the transitions, it pushed him through the stage with the platform, also note he was grabbing the ledge of the floating platform during the transition. I don't see it as a major issue, but the might be worth noting.

Also, what are the chances of getting custom stages into competitive lists now that we have a decent hub to share and download them?

There is a problem with clipping on Skyloft on the residential district portion of the stage. The developers seemed to notice this and the floating platform actually stays there a bit longer to allow any person that is inside the stage to recover. It's not an issue.

 

[J_the_Man]

Mario Circuit's ceiling glitch is gone now. Just want to point that out.

It's not. Tested it myself. Still there.

 

[Thinkaman]

Observation: Maybe it's just the characters I play (which is a ton, but still only ~30% of the roster), but I find that in every matchup either Halberd or Kongo Jungle gets banned. (In any context where they are legal.) The more experienced me and my opponent are, the more true this is.

I find that the blast zone difference on these two stages overshadows the matchup significance of any other distinction between stages, and it seems everyone else does too.

Thoughts?

 

[Piford]

Observation: Maybe it's just the characters I play (which is a ton, but still only ~30% of the roster), but I find that in every matchup either Halberd or Kongo Jungle gets banned. (In any context where they are legal.) The more experienced me and my opponent are, the more true this is.

I find that the blast zone difference on these two stages overshadows the matchup significance of any other distinction between stages, and it seems everyone else does too.

Thoughts?

It's definitely not every matchup, but I see it commonly (with halberd, haven't seen that many tournaments run KJ64). From what I understand, if one player has a very strong vertical kill move, they either ban kongo or have halberd banned against them. In matchups where both players either have or lack that move, then it's usually left open. The main reason was that Diddy Kong can kill very early on Halberd, and like 1/5 of all players play Diddy Kong. This leads to an abnormally large banning of Halberd because its a good Diddy stage (and then KJ64 is a bad one).

I don't think that the blastzones completely overshadow the other features of the stage, but they are a big influence. It doesn't help that a lot of players counterpick solely based on Blatzones rather than the actual layout of the stages themselves. You hear way to many people pick Duck Hunt just because the side blast zones are closer and the ceiling is high (which isn't even true).

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm increasingly convinced that if it were up to me, blast zones for "1v1 stages" would be entirely consistent. The more I play, the more I find the distinction to be boring and dilutive compared to the richness of the rest of the game. It's a distinction that doesn't create more gameplay, unlike most stage differences. It just changes who wins in a really straightforward and bland way.

I don't think they should be banned though, in the same sense that I don't think Sonic should be banned.

 

[Pazx]

So I promised to link this video awhile back, and we're talking about KJ64 again. Fantastic! New Dream Land, it seems.

https://youtu.be/1-ib_i9gvvo?t=15m17s

Also @Conda I was thinking about PMing you about this but I might as well do it here. We have many video analysis threads for individual characters, do we have any similar resource for commentators? I'd really like to improve in that aspect and you seem knowledgeable.