So we're arguing opinions, is that it?
Not opinions. I'm stating facts.
I've seen NinjaLink 2-0 M2K's MK not even four months ago, don't tell me no character has a chance of beating a MK. At that same tournament, Cort played Snake and the highest place that a Snake got was 9th. The top3 was Lucario, Kirby, Diddy.
I said PLANKING METAKNIGHT, not just Metaknight. I don't give a **** if M2K thinks running at your opponent and attacking is more fun then planking, it's NOT more effective. Cort's rustier than Atomsk's bike that's been left outside for a year and a half.
I also don't care if top 5 split the pot what the results are. M2K went Dedede vs Chu's Kirby when he was told before the set that Kirby counters Dedede.
I really don't see a point in arguing with you because you seem brainwashed by the tournament scene just enough to not listen to opinions which originate outside of what you consider "good" or "qualified" players. I will, however, because I have boredom. >.<
I'll listen to opinions as long as they're supported by FACTUAL evidence.
And I don't see what Eggm's list has to do with a Brawl debate.
More Melee viable characters then Brawl viable characters was the point.
Picking exactly one example that works doesn't prove your point, you should have learned that in ninth grade Algebra.
Actually, in ninth grade Algebra you learn stuff like x+2=5, x=5-2, x=3. However, in TENTH grade geometry you learn that one counterexample is all it takes to prove at theorem false. Mathematics courses you obviously didn't take aside, the point was that in Melee, at LEAST low tiers could death combo spacies as well as other high tiers. What low tiers in Brawl are EVER going to death combo high tiers? None, which is why I didn't list out every single example.
Zelda and G&W weren't ever going to combo anyone to death in Melee.
The first 10 seconds of this match disagrees with your assessment that Zelda wasn't ever going to combo anyone to death in Melee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng5AMWRNmSQ
She can also CG spacies. G&W also has pretty respectable combos vs spacies IIRC, I'd link to Dire's Melee combo video but I can't find it.
But that's irrelavent because Brawl is not the same game. In Brawl, very few of the high tier characters can perform high damage combos. Or we could talk 'not true' combos, in which case any character would be capable enough.
Except in Brawl bad characters can't limit the hell out of their opponents options the way good characters can by doing almost nothing. Snake can stand in front of your shield and if you're Mario you can't do **** about that if he's spaced properly.
Even in Brawl there are oddities, such as Tudor's Samus and RoyR's Falcon. And even if they can't beat M2K (who is established and one of the best), that does not, by any means, mark them as a bad player.
I've never heard of either of them beating big names at big tournaments or placing high. IF they have, please link me to the thread and/or vids of this. Tudor's Brawl "combo" video was a joke. 95+% of what he did was EASILY escapable.
Not the case. People use high tiers because all they have to do is follow the metagame and learn the playstyle. Picking up a low tier would require a player to do all the footwork, so to speak, his/herself, and most people don't want to put that sort of effort in.
No, that IS the case. Learning characters is easy as HELL in Brawl. Because I have TRIED as hard as possible to make this game fun, I have played with every character. I perused all the specific character boards and played basically every character in the game for a decent amount of time. Bad characters are just bad. There is no way around it.
"Don't get hit" - Isai. You don't want to get hit, you want to be safe at all times. Low tiers are VERY bad at keeping themselves safe in this game. This is because they have bad pokes, they suck at defending themselves from camping and suck at camping, or a combination of all three. Most of them also happen to suck at killing, but that wouldn't matter that much if they were good at the others.
I'm not against tiers, I actually laugh when people try to tell me that a tier list doesn't exist. I place value on what people consider 'lower tiered' characters. This does not mean that I think Yoshi or Jiggs can be better than Snake, don't get me wrong, but it also doesn't mean that I think they suck.
They DO suck
compared to broken tier. Jigglypuff has gay camping, M2K says her fair has a good amount of shieldstun and is almost as gay as her Melee fair, she has drillrest, a good dash grab, and a good dash attack but she's STILL mediocre compared to broken tier. She's not that bad on gay stages and possibly pretty good in teams, but that's it.
That they should. To bad small tournaments don't usually run pools because it takes a while.
Well in small tournaments everyone is pretty much doomed to face good people very fast so that can't be helped for anyone. Pools should be run at every event when possible though. For the people who would place last/second to last they still get to play a good amount of sets and for the people who place high they don't have to worry about playing each other R1.
Really good as in good enough to beat M2K? 98% of the Smash community could never hope to beat M2K. There could be a great player who's just not quite good enough that would never get a chance to stand out if, every time, (s)he had to face off against an 'established pro'.
Really good as in good enough to beat anyone else. My bad, I left a comma out after R1. The segment should read as "unless they're fighting Mew2King R1, they can win if they're really good."
They don't have to get M2K. They could get: Chu, Neo, Forte, Omni, NL, Azen, Cort, Vidjo, Velocity, Atmosk, BlackWaltz, etc. Any number of good players who we know now could be just a BIT better than an up-and-commer and shut him/her out. And what happens if that up-and-commer could only attend NYC Smashfests, or didn't get to attend as many tournaments as (s)he would have liked to?
This is NJ, most of those people aren't here. The only person in this state who is a guaranteed loss is M2K. Everyone else is beatable. Also, if someone takes say BlackWaltz to R3 last hit and then takes someone else good to R3 last hit they're going to be seeded better in the next bracket. You have to do something to prove that you're good. You can't just expect the community to know exactly how skilled you are unless you do something to prove it. Beating mediocre people isn't proving anything.
In both of your examples, the decision of which way to throw your opponent would be made instinctively, and in each case the reaction comes naturally because there are so few possible outcomes. You're just following a list, and the description of what happens after each time you land a hit is as follows:
If this, then this; else this.
Ok? You still have to predict how your opponent is going to DI. If they DI off the stage and you fthrow you can't follow it up with anything and if they DI on the stage and you upthrow you don't have a kill. I prefer this a lot more then "oh I hit them above me, they are either going to airdodge or try and beat [insert move here that they can't beat that does pathetic damage and doesn't lead into anything devastating at all]"
I like being rewarded with giving my opponent more then 10% and a hand written note by Sakurai saying "Have fun camping more until they hit you one time again!"
That is not true. How can you have longer combos, more hitstun, and "more options"? It just doesn't work like that, I'm sorry but it doesn't.
Actually, it DOES work like that because when you AREN'T being hit you can do more. You actually can APPROACH and safely hit people's shields with more then just pokes that don't lead to anything substantial. You can move around on platforms with wavelanding, which is a whole new option of movement. Wavedash - Whole new option of movement. From the ledge, you can actually drop off the ledge immediately the moment you grab it so you can jump up with an attack while you're invincible for part of the duration or waveland up with an attack. Wavelanding up perfectly to keep as many invincibility frames as possible isn't easy for a lot of characters so it's more to give you more ways to attack then anything else.
Good **** to you and Shadow for repping NYC.
