Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TheLastJinjo]

Toad is the fastest playable character in SMB2 and the Wii U game Super Mario World 3D. This is why I believe that Toad is one of the best characters to embody Mariokart, a game of speed.

That's a stretch.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Off-Topic:
I honestly have to agree with Daddy Sakurai here. Ridley is better off a threatening boss type instead of a fighter. Ridley is too big, seeing it in the actual Metroid games and in Subspace it looks two in a half of Samus's size. Ridley would have been weird looking indeed, making him small just does not feel right. Sorry if I upset any Ridley supporters, I just wanted to point out my personal opinion. I am a Bandanna Dee supporter though.

To sort of play the Devil's advocate here, character scaling in Smash Bros. is poorly executed anyway. I don't think each character needs to be roughly the same size. Ridley could take good advantage of this if there's gonna be a bigger difference between the sizes and they take to actual canon. It would take some certain tropes away, like swordies all playing a similar game of using their range optimally to keep others away. It would increase crazy combo potential on certain characters as say, Pikachu or Kirby.

But unless a major overhaul in character scaling is present, I doubt Ridley is ever gonna happen. And I honestly doubt they are gonna throw the scaling off, seeing as they will probably use a very similar engine to Smash Wii U anyway. Especially with a new director, who might not be too excited to make any big risks when it comes to these things.

If there's gonna be a director that's gonna make Ridley playable, it's Sakurai. And pure out of ultimate stubbornness, as a sort of ultimate challenge to overcome of sorts. But as it stands? Ridley is easily one of the most popular characters with the least chance of inclusion ever. And honestly, I never really "got" the support for him anyway. He's hardly a properly fleshed out character if you don't take the manga into consideration. He's a wild wicked beast who gets resurrected and is purely out for revenge. There's no real debt to the overall character. I'd hope Prime 4 would change this, but I doubt it.

Metroid is already lucky enough to have Zero Suit Samus.

 

[CCD23]

If they remove Pyrosphere, they could just, ya know, remove Ridley. They don't have to keep him. You don't need every villain in a smash game.

True, except that Ridley has been in EVERY Smash game in some form, having a more prominent role with every new release. In Brawl he was a boss in Subspace Emissary and now he's a major stage hazard. And, considering he was made a part of the recent Samus Returns and also has a huge fanbase, it would be strange not include him in the upcoming Smash game.

 

[Bowserlick]

That's a stretch.

About as much of a stretch as Rosalina and Bowser Jr.'s translation into Smash.

I recall wanting Bowser Jr. in a mechanized fighting robot if he did get in, rather than with a paintbrush and ability to transform into evil paint Mario. Unpopular idea, but it happened.

 

[HelloSpy]

To sort of play the Devil's advocate here, character scaling in Smash Bros. is poorly executed anyway. I don't think each character needs to be roughly the same size. Ridley could take good advantage of this if there's gonna be a bigger difference between the sizes and they take to actual canon. It would take some certain tropes away, like swordies all playing a similar game of using their range optimally to keep others away. It would increase crazy combo potential on certain characters as say, Pikachu or Kirby.

But unless a major overhaul in character scaling is present, I doubt Ridley is ever gonna happen. And I honestly doubt they are gonna throw the scaling off, seeing as they will probably use a very similar engine to Smash Wii U anyway. Especially with a new director, who might not be too excited to make any big risks when it comes to these things.

If there's gonna be a director that's gonna make Ridley playable, it's Sakurai. And pure out of ultimate stubbornness, as a sort of ultimate challenge to overcome of sorts. But as it stands? Ridley is easily one of the most popular characters with the least chance of inclusion ever. And honestly, I never really "got" the support for him anyway. He's hardly a properly fleshed out character if you don't take the manga into consideration. He's a wild wicked beast who gets resurrected and is purely out for revenge. There's no real debt to the overall character. I'd hope Prime 4 would change this, but I doubt it.

Metroid is already lucky enough to have Zero Suit Samus.

I also don't think many people have read the manga. At this point, Ridley could be likely though, because Sakurai might be shot because of how many people support it. I personally think it's a terrible idea, but there's always people.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

About as much of a stretch as Rosalina and Bowser Jr.'s translation into Smash.

No. How dare you even imply that offhandedly as if you made a reasonable argument.

I recall wanting Bowser Jr. in a mechanized fighting robot if he did get in, rather than with a paintbrush and ability to transform into evil paint Mario. Unpopular idea, but it happened.

Bowser Jr. actually uses a mech in the games. That's a character trait that is actually unique to him.

 

[HelloSpy]

About as much of a stretch as Rosalina and Bowser Jr.'s translation into Smash.

I recall wanting Bowser Jr. in a mechanized fighting robot if he did get in, rather than with a paintbrush and ability to transform into evil paint Mario. Unpopular idea, but it happened.

I disagree. Bowser Jr. was a main character in multiple games, and Rosalina was in Galaxy. Toads are a species. The only toad I really think would get into Smash would maybe be Captain Toad, but that's unlikely.

 

[Bowserlick]

Okay. I'm sorry that this is off-topic. But what in the actual h*ll is that pfp?

Every year on Groundhog Day I draw a rendition of a groundhog moniker.
Groundhogs have many names.

This profile picture is of a Whistlepig, the first drawing in this set.
The next year was Woodchuck, the third Groundhog and the fourth Red Monk.

 

[PixelSun]

To give my insight, I believe Tails might appear in the next game. They've added Sonic, so why not Tails? Sure, it's SEGA's property, but they already got Sonic. Besides, you don't see him much in other games. Perhaps there is a reason? Chances are probably not, but I'd like to present the idea.

Besides Tails, I'd also want to see a Classic Sonic (the one from Sonic Generations and Forces, apparently also from Mania). I guess it'd be a lighter version of Sonic with more speed and less damage.

 

[Bowserlick]

No. How dare you even imply that offhandedly as if you made a reasonable argument.

I dare. Rosalina's moveset borrowed heavily from Galaxy's theme. Hardly any of her Smash moves are things she has done.

Toad using items from Mariokart, plucking items from the ground and being the fastest Mario Kingdom playable character are all things he has actually done in his games.

 

[HelloSpy]

Besides Tails, I'd also want to see a Classic Sonic (the one from Sonic Generations and Forces, apparently also from Mania). I guess it'd be a lighter version of Sonic with more speed and less damage.

So basically like as Toon Link is to Link?

 

[PixelSun]

So basically like as Toon Link is to Link?

Yep, something around that. Maybe even with a retro costume (basically the original sprite from Sonic Mania)!

 

[HelloSpy]

Well, I mentioned it before, so I thought I would bring it up again. Baby ridley could be possible. That's how they could explain less damage and being smaller. It may not be a real character, but it's the best chance we got. Just a suggestion.

Also PixelSun stop changing your darn pfp.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ridley is cloned, spliced and mechanized in his games.
Already hoops have been jumped through to bring in back from the dead.

A Ridley clone that is sized for Smash is acceptable to me.

Indeed. But that only really works well if he's given a good design in canon. Literally the closest to one is his sprite form in the original Metroid, where he's actually not severely huge. Wouldn't really work, though.

Just something I wanted to toss into the Ridley discussion:

What if Pyrosphere is cut in the Switch version? This is something I can see easily happening. Nintendo is well aware of the dislike for Metroid Other M and since then we've had Samus Returns and an announced Metroid Prime 4. Instead of keeping a stage based on an older, disliked game, it would make more sense to replace it with a stage based on the newer Samus Returns or Metroid Prime 4. And if the Pyrosphere stage is cut, then obviously the stage hazard Ridley would be too as well. Then what role would Ridley have in Smash Bros.? Could this open the door a little bit more for Ridley?

Furthermore, it is rumored that Bandai Namco is helping develop Metroid Prime 4. They also helped develop Smash 4, and could very well be working on the new Smash Bros. as well. So there's that...

Finally, as I understand it, Sakurai is supposedly no longer going to direct or directly work on any more Smash games, but instead will go with a 'consulting' role. I can't say for sure, but I imagine he very well might be making less definitive decisions during the new Smash development. Which means he is less likely to "veto" a decision to include Ridley if it comes up, IF he still believes he shouldn't be a playable character... Unlike Villager.

Of course, this is speculation based mostly on rumors, but it seems to me that circumstances are lining up for Ridley to have a *believable* chance at being a playable character. But who knows? I'd love for Ridley to be a playable character, but we won't know for sure until the game is released or the roster is leaked. I'll be buying it either way, like I'm sure most of you will be too.

Sakurai has not been confirmed as the director of any later Smash game. We solely got a rumor that somebody else is directing it(or at least developing it, which the rumor is more referring to). In addition, this doesn't mean he won't be part of it. It's possible he might be just a consultant. We don't know.

Now, the rumor of the Metroid Prime 4 part is actually a far bigger note. Them trying to make a more proportionally possible Ridley that can be shrunk down is actually possible. I mean, let's remember that they actually previewed stuff from Metal Gear Solid 4 in the Shadow Moses Island stage, so it's not like content cannot be planned out from one game to another. That said, I don't think this is too likely(that is, that Ridley will be playable) if Sakurai still has strong influence. It's not impossible, of course. But as a person who fully read his article, I understand where he's coming from. He tries to capture the essence of a character's personality far more than simply just canon moves alone. This is why Ganondorf works just fine as a Falcon clone. He's still brutal. He's still extremely strong. He still has magical power. This is the essence of him. He obviously could have a few more canon moves, but there's probably more to take into account going into Brawl, which could explain the lack of Dead Man's Volley(which, notably, isn't a move Ganondorf uses in WW or TP. It's his OOT spell, but then other characters are using it as well, making it clearly not all that related to him and just iconic for that particular boss fight instead. Considering that later games started to have characters who aren't actually a form of Ganon(dorf) using it, it no longer felt special to him, so it's not hard to see why it isn't there at this point. Not to say it shouldn't exist, of course. I mean, it has at least one easy custom, the blue ball that Agnahim uses).

 

[HelloSpy]

True, except that Ridley has been in EVERY Smash game in some form, having a more prominent role with every new release. In Brawl he was a boss in Subspace Emissary and now he's a major stage hazard. And, considering he was made a part of the recent Samus Returns and also has a huge fanbase, it would be strange not include him in the upcoming Smash game.

The thing is, what if they don't remove Pyrosphere? That's likely. And if they do, they can just make another map for him. That's like removing Onett from Smash 5 and saying "Oh the cars are gone and cars hit people alot and there's a ton of em in real life, car is playable Smash 5 character CONFIRMED!"

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

The thing is, what if they don't remove Pyrosphere? That's likely. And if they do, they can just make another map for him. That's like removing Onett from Smash 5 and saying "Oh the cars are gone and cars hit people alot and there's a ton of em in real life, car is playable Smash 5 character CONFIRMED!"

However, the difference is that Ridley is an actual character, unlike the cars that appear in Onett.

Spoiler

That being said I'd KILL for a car character in Smash.

 

[HelloSpy]

However, the difference is that Ridley is an actual character, unlike the cars that appear in Onett.

Spoiler

That being said I'd KILL for a car character in Smash.

Well then, yeah, I'm totally hyped to play as the Yellow Devil.

 

[Krysco]

Kinda surprised how all written responses (admittedly, a puny 3 but still) have been negative to my Ridley idea. Not sure how much those posters are for Ridley getting in but I'd still see it as a 'better than nothing' sort of deal. The only immediate part of my idea was what if Ridley got added, balance be damned? Let him be OP. But then I got thinking of his issues of working on small stages and multiple Ridley's possibly being too much for the Switch. I'm personally just a casual fan of Ridley and that's really just due to my love for Metroid, namely the Prime games and Super.

Also TheLastJinjo you and I have differing opinions on the different Classic modes where I much prefer the Wii U version and you prefer the older version. Just wondering what exactly you like about it. 64 specifically was very repetitious, fighting the same opponents on the same stage in the same order every time. As far as I recall, Melee randomized the opponents, just keeping them restricted to their respective series' stages (or Temple for the FE characters iirc). I remember with Brawl, the first fight was always something to do with Zelda, be it a 1 on 1 or a team battle and was always on one of the Zelda stages. Past that, I don't recall how Brawl handled it entirely. I know the minigames in 64/Melee/Brawl were always at the same intervals but then Sm4sh took those out completely from Classic. Not trying to **** on your opinion or anything but just genuinely curious what you liked about it or perhaps how you'd change it to make it better?

And you mentioned wanting more clones so here's where I needlessly shoehorn in more discussion of my personal most wanted clones and ask what you think of the addition of Galacta Knight or Toon Zelda? :3

 

[HelloSpy]

Alright. I'm just gonna say it. Sorry to break it to y'all, but Ridley is not gonna happen. Sakurai has said it. There's too many problems with balance, size, that it would require major game changes and removal from playing him for it all to work. I would be extremely suprised if it was included as playable. He was a boss or stage hazard, never playable. I just don't think it's gonna happen.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I can answer a point about 64's Classic VS Wii U's.

64's has a ton more to do than just battles. While it's true the battles are repeated, the mini-games are at least somewhat different(two of the three will always be dependent on your character). You also get randomized partners when facing Giant Donkey Kong and the Mario Bros. In addition, the Polygon Fighting Team is randomized every time you fight them, including Race to the Finish.

Wii U doesn't have mini-games. At all. Even Brawl had some, but it was severely long while having no real unique mini-games to speak of. It got even more repetitive because you had to go through over 30 times to get every trophy. Same with All-Star. Yes, you needed to do so with each individual Transformation too. This was severely tedious and the randomization is barely there even then in Brawl. Wii U is actually less of the same than Brawl. 3DS Classic is a bit better, but not by much. The problem is only Melee and 64 had any remotely unique mini-games to go through, and weren't heavily long either. Each time you play as one of the 12 in 64? You're going to have a different overall experience, where difficulty doesn't heavily change that beyond, you know, how hard someone is to knock off. 3DS and Wii U have random opponents, but that's... it. The lack of mini-games makes it too repetitive. Like, worse than Brawl in that department, but Brawl also had two breaks between fights, with two of the same Target Smash, depending the difficulty. Meaning that you'll be going through Target Smash 1-5 over 20 times. This is significantly more annoying than just going through different Target Tests 1 per character(or, well, slot, technically. Since Zelda/Sheik has the same one in Melee, and same idea with Brawl, as the Target Smash doesn't count transformations, treating it as a slot thing, not the individual character, unlike the Trophies).

Honestly, each Classic Mode(all 5) are hardly perfect and they have enjoyable points in their own rights, but downsides too. 64's is nearly the same with some slight variation, but it doesn't exactly change it up heavily. Melee's is the most varied, but they also removed a mini-game, making it a bit longer(though at least they added an extra in return). Brawl's was severely repetitive with almost no variation, as it was completely engulfed by the series, but unlike 64, didn't feel unique enough due to mini-games being, you know, varied. It removed the variance of mini-games, but had a little more variance in series. But you want to experience some older styles? You want Metal Mario or Giant DK? Even Metal Luigi? Good luck! You'll get Giant Yoshi nearly every time with DK and Diddy as the partners, or VS DK and Diddy with Yoshi as your partner. Oh, you wanted unique partners like previous games? Nope. It's all that hardset with the only chance that you get in a team battle with a series that has more than 3 characters total(well, sub-series, if you will). And let's not forget some series have one character, so you barely get to fight them differently at all. But then they combined those series again(much like Yoshi and DK) to try and "deviate" a little, but this also ties your partners to them. As repetitive as 64 was, it tried to at least not hard code your partners either, which is kind of a godsend when it came to keeping it a unique experience each time. Sure, you're going to get maybe about 12 varied partners VS Mario Bros., and a decent amount of combination VS Giant Donkey Kong(don't feel like doing the math, but you get the idea of how likely it is to have a different setup).

What Classic honestly need to really do more is try to focus on keeping it a bit more varied. Removing all the mini-games does not make it inherently more fun, even if it speeds it up a little due to having over 30 characters to go through with. But that doesn't mean the mini-games are bad either. It just keeps you from doing fights over and over and gives you a quick break to use a different strategy.

Long post, but overall, yeah, Smash 64 is not as repetitive alone as people make it. It's got stuff that Brawl and Wii U don't have, unique randomness and actual different mini-games(Melee at least kept this, to mostly the same degree).

 

[Freduardo]

Got an idea in regards to Ridley. Part of the issue is balance, right? Well what if balance for Ridley is thrown out the window? Make him the equivalent to Bowser in Mario Party 10. If he's overpowered, the competitive scene can just ban him. The issue of multiple Ridley's can be solved by a specific mode that makes him playable and only lets one player be him. If he doesn't comfortably fit on all stages, just restrict the stage list like 8 player smash does. Better for him to be partially playable than not at all, right? Except for those who'd want an all or nothing deal.

The way I could see this working is a boss battle mode with asynchronous multiplayer where everyone picks a normal character and one player picks between Ridley, Rayquaza, Galleom, Duon, Porky, Master Hand, Crazy Hand, Tabuu, Ancient Minister, Yellow Demon. Maybe even Giga Bowser and Giga Mac. And of course, Bosses have HP instead of percentage.

The problem is asychronous multiplayer really peaked on Wii U.

The solution is much like “pac man vs” uses... just get a second switch involved.

 

[Krysco]

I can answer a point about 64's Classic VS Wii U's.

64's has a ton more to do than just battles. While it's true the battles are repeated, the mini-games are at least somewhat different(two of the three will always be dependent on your character). You also get randomized partners when facing Giant Donkey Kong and the Mario Bros. In addition, the Polygon Fighting Team is randomized every time you fight them, including Race to the Finish.

Wii U doesn't have mini-games. At all. Even Brawl had some, but it was severely long while having no real unique mini-games to speak of. It got even more repetitive because you had to go through over 30 times to get every trophy. Same with All-Star. Yes, you needed to do so with each individual Transformation too. This was severely tedious and the randomization is barely there even then in Brawl. Wii U is actually less of the same than Brawl. 3DS Classic is a bit better, but not by much. The problem is only Melee and 64 had any remotely unique mini-games to go through, and weren't heavily long either. Each time you play as one of the 12 in 64? You're going to have a different overall experience, where difficulty doesn't heavily change that beyond, you know, how hard someone is to knock off. 3DS and Wii U have random opponents, but that's... it. The lack of mini-games makes it too repetitive. Like, worse than Brawl in that department, but Brawl also had two breaks between fights, with two of the same Target Smash, depending the difficulty. Meaning that you'll be going through Target Smash 1-5 over 20 times. This is significantly more annoying than just going through different Target Tests 1 per character(or, well, slot, technically. Since Zelda/Sheik has the same one in Melee, and same idea with Brawl, as the Target Smash doesn't count transformations, treating it as a slot thing, not the individual character, unlike the Trophies).

Honestly, each Classic Mode(all 5) are hardly perfect and they have enjoyable points in their own rights, but downsides too. 64's is nearly the same with some slight variation, but it doesn't exactly change it up heavily. Melee's is the most varied, but they also removed a mini-game, making it a bit longer(though at least they added an extra in return). Brawl's was severely repetitive with almost no variation, as it was completely engulfed by the series, but unlike 64, didn't feel unique enough due to mini-games being, you know, varied. It removed the variance of mini-games, but had a little more variance in series. But you want to experience some older styles? You want Metal Mario or Giant DK? Even Metal Luigi? Good luck! You'll get Giant Yoshi nearly every time with DK and Diddy as the partners, or VS DK and Diddy with Yoshi as your partner. Oh, you wanted unique partners like previous games? Nope. It's all that hardset with the only chance that you get in a team battle with a series that has more than 3 characters total(well, sub-series, if you will). And let's not forget some series have one character, so you barely get to fight them differently at all. But then they combined those series again(much like Yoshi and DK) to try and "deviate" a little, but this also ties your partners to them. As repetitive as 64 was, it tried to at least not hard code your partners either, which is kind of a godsend when it came to keeping it a unique experience each time. Sure, you're going to get maybe about 12 varied partners VS Mario Bros., and a decent amount of combination VS Giant Donkey Kong(don't feel like doing the math, but you get the idea of how likely it is to have a different setup).

What Classic honestly need to really do more is try to focus on keeping it a bit more varied. Removing all the mini-games does not make it inherently more fun, even if it speeds it up a little due to having over 30 characters to go through with. But that doesn't mean the mini-games are bad either. It just keeps you from doing fights over and over and gives you a quick break to use a different strategy.

Long post, but overall, yeah, Smash 64 is not as repetitive alone as people make it. It's got stuff that Brawl and Wii U don't have, unique randomness and actual different mini-games(Melee at least kept this, to mostly the same degree).

I didn't even think of the randomized partners for 64, that's a good point. And I completely forgot about Brawl tying Yoshi and DK together >_< bleh, wasn't a fan of Brawl's Classic anyways. The only minigames I personally miss are the character specific Target Smash, Board the Platforms and the general Race to the Finish. Didn't care for the Trophy Grab in Melee but then I don't care for trophies period.

The character specific stuff likely isn't coming back due to how big the roster is and I've seen people suggest separating it by series but, I don't know, that seems kinda bias. Like, R.O.B., Shulk, Little Mac and Captain Falcon would all get unique ones but then high jumping Luigi, floating and item spawning Peach and big ol' Bowser are stuck with one that compensates for the others? I'd rather it be categorized moreso based on what certain characters are capable of if that route were taken. Like have one with high up platforms for the high jumpers like Falco and Ness, keeping the likes of Mac and Ganon away from it. A more horizontally spaced one for the fast grounded characters like Mac, Falcon and Sonic. Maybe one that requires wall jumping for some wall jump chararcters. Even then, DLC could make that complicated.

Wii U Classic is repetitious in that it's just fight after fight after fight but then, All-Star has the same issue and it's always the same opponents in the same order on the same set of stages. I'll gladly take the freedom of choice Classic gives me despite the randomness over the set in stone crap that All Star has become Brawl onwards. Plus, I at least like what Sm4sh Classic did for the end. Master Core is a pretty fun boss rush. Can't sing the same praise for the final dungeon thing since it's set in stone in design and enemy placement.

The way I could see this working is a boss battle mode with asynchronous multiplayer where everyone picks a normal character and one player picks between Ridley, Rayquaza, Galleom, Duon, Porky, Master Hand, Crazy Hand, Tabuu, Ancient Minister, Yellow Demon. Maybe even Giga Bowser and Giga Mac. And of course, Bosses have HP instead of percentage.

The problem is asychronous multiplayer really peaked on Wii U.

The solution is much like “pac man vs” uses... just get a second switch involved.

I'm not against the idea of a 'playable boss mode' at all, I just specifically targeted it towards Ridley since he's a character so many people want in Smash. If they add the likes of say Eggman in a mech, Master and/or Crazy Hand, Andross, Rayquaza and heck, even Ganon, I'd be down with that.

 

[N. Onymous]

First post in here, so I might as well say what I want out of SSB5:

1. Lip
2. Inkling
3. Ice Climbers
4. Lip
5. K. Rool
6. Lip
7. Lip
8. Lip
9. Ridley
10. Good gameplay

I'm, um. I'm easy to please.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I didn't even think of the randomized partners for 64, that's a good point. And I completely forgot about Brawl tying Yoshi and DK together >_< bleh, wasn't a fan of Brawl's Classic anyways. The only minigames I personally miss are the character specific Target Smash, Board the Platforms and the general Race to the Finish. Didn't care for the Trophy Grab in Melee but then I don't care for trophies period.

The character specific stuff likely isn't coming back due to how big the roster is and I've seen people suggest separating it by series but, I don't know, that seems kinda bias. Like, R.O.B., Shulk, Little Mac and Captain Falcon would all get unique ones but then high jumping Luigi, floating and item spawning Peach and big ol' Bowser are stuck with one that compensates for the others? I'd rather it be categorized moreso based on what certain characters are capable of if that route were taken. Like have one with high up platforms for the high jumpers like Falco and Ness, keeping the likes of Mac and Ganon away from it. A more horizontally spaced one for the fast grounded characters like Mac, Falcon and Sonic. Maybe one that requires wall jumping for some wall jump chararcters. Even then, DLC could make that complicated.

Wii U Classic is repetitious in that it's just fight after fight after fight but then, All-Star has the same issue and it's always the same opponents in the same order on the same set of stages. I'll gladly take the freedom of choice Classic gives me despite the randomness over the set in stone crap that All Star has become Brawl onwards. Plus, I at least like what Sm4sh Classic did for the end. Master Core is a pretty fun boss rush. Can't sing the same praise for the final dungeon thing since it's set in stone in design and enemy placement.

It's more that Wii U does keep it far more random than Brawl, making it, imo, superior. The fights are highly different with a lot of variation and such. Combined with the fact you can still at least get drops and you can use some strategy to get those characters to drop stuff, plus the rival system. It's overall better because of the variance.

And yeah, Target Tests aren't coming back obviously. I get why. It sucks, but it's understandable. However, that doesn't excuse Brawl not having other mini-games. Where's Race to the Finish? Trophy Grab was much needed due to how Brawl throws Stickers at you severely while making Trophies very difficult to get if you just want some random ones. All-Star, imo, is not very fun in Brawl or 4. 4 is slightly better since it tries to keep the number of opponents nearly the same each around, instead of making it feel completely asinine in the way Brawl does it(oh, great, 6 fighters when fighting Pokemon...). And then you get crap stages like WarioWare(it's not a bad stage, but it is ridiculous when the mini-games can kill you easily, same with Mario Bros.) etc. that do not help. All-Star's best point by then was at 2 Player, but then you have two annoying factors; If either gets KO'd, you autolose(it should be both, to keep it somewhat challenging but more fun), and the fact that you only are considered to have finished All-Star with whoever the 1st Player is. Not both. Trophy bit is nice, but that's all you get a little faster. Go with Ganondorf and Link? Only counts as Ganondorf properly finishing it.

I will say this, though; Brawl has, imo, better Event Matches. Not as good as Melee, but 4's just honestly felt annoying with few exceptions. Custom equipment hardly helped either, and some were just a severe pain, which is pretty much how it normally is when trying to KO someone under extremely specific conditions.

 

[N. Onymous]

I will say this, though; Brawl has, imo, better Event Matches. Not as good as Melee, but 4's just honestly felt annoying with few exceptions. Custom equipment hardly helped either, and some were just a severe pain, which is pretty much how it normally is when trying to KO someone under extremely specific conditions.

I'm the opposite way. I think Brawl has the worst event matches in the series and that SSB4's were a step forward. SSB4 does have really annoying and balls-hard event matches like Kirby's Crazy Appetite, but at least those are memorable. Brawl has... well, um, it has Two Trouble Kings. And the one where you're Zelda and have to climb Rumble Falls. And... hold on, I'll remember something eventually.

 

[HelloSpy]

I'm the opposite way. I think Brawl has the worst event matches in the series and that SSB4's were a step forward. SSB4 does have really annoying and balls-hard event matches like Kirby's Crazy Appetite, but at least those are memorable. Brawl has... well, um, it has Two Trouble Kings. And the one where you're Zelda and have to climb Rumble Falls. And... hold on, I'll remember something eventually.

The thing is though you only mentioned one Super Smash Bros 4 event match, and two brawls. Care to explain?

 

[N. Onymous]

The thing is though you only mentioned one Super Smash Bros 4 event match, and two brawls. Care to explain?

SSB4 event matches, off the top of my head: The Original Heavyweights, that one random Bunny Kong one, The Big 7580 (forget the actual number), That Elusive 9, Unwavering Chivalry, Yellow Devils, Below the Belt, Kirby's Crazy Appetite, the Duck Hunt one with Falco, It's Past Your Bedtime aka the worst event match ever made, In the Name of the Hero-King

SSBB event matches, off the top of my head: Literally just the two I listed

 

[Krysco]

It's more that Wii U does keep it far more random than Brawl, making it, imo, superior. The fights are highly different with a lot of variation and such. Combined with the fact you can still at least get drops and you can use some strategy to get those characters to drop stuff, plus the rival system. It's overall better because of the variance.

And yeah, Target Tests aren't coming back obviously. I get why. It sucks, but it's understandable. However, that doesn't excuse Brawl not having other mini-games. Where's Race to the Finish? Trophy Grab was much needed due to how Brawl throws Stickers at you severely while making Trophies very difficult to get if you just want some random ones. All-Star, imo, is not very fun in Brawl or 4. 4 is slightly better since it tries to keep the number of opponents nearly the same each around, instead of making it feel completely asinine in the way Brawl does it(oh, great, 6 fighters when fighting Pokemon...). And then you get crap stages like WarioWare(it's not a bad stage, but it is ridiculous when the mini-games can kill you easily, same with Mario Bros.) etc. that do not help. All-Star's best point by then was at 2 Player, but then you have two annoying factors; If either gets KO'd, you autolose(it should be both, to keep it somewhat challenging but more fun), and the fact that you only are considered to have finished All-Star with whoever the 1st Player is. Not both. Trophy bit is nice, but that's all you get a little faster. Go with Ganondorf and Link? Only counts as Ganondorf properly finishing it.

I will say this, though; Brawl has, imo, better Event Matches. Not as good as Melee, but 4's just honestly felt annoying with few exceptions. Custom equipment hardly helped either, and some were just a severe pain, which is pretty much how it normally is when trying to KO someone under extremely specific conditions.

I can't say I really care for the drops. Equipment and customs are grouped together making custom farming unreliable (was a bit better in the 3DS version since you could cheat to guarantee getting as high of a wrench number as you could), gold is plentiful as it is and only goes towards trophies, more Classic, Trophy Rush which just gets you more trophies and Crazy Orders. Already said my piece on trophies and then Crazy Order tickets are just a decent early replacement for gold. Didn't care for the Rival system either. Just guaranteed you a fight vs a specific random character that you knew wouldn't go giant or metal.


I'm altogether not a big fan of what All Star is, especially as the roster gets bigger and bigger. Melee at least randomized it save for the final fight but Brawl and Sm4sh are both equally bad in my eyes. As for the stages, there's only a few annoying ones in 4 from what I recall. Umbra Clock Tower just because the shaking screen, Luigi's Mansion due to the AI being able to tech rather consistently, Skyworld actually has that issue too. I don't recall if 75m even appears in it or not. I wanna say Pyrosphere does but without the hazards like Ridley and the turrets. Still not a fan of that stage due to the size and it's hard to tell when you're too far in if you're recovering low.

It's been so long since I played Brawl and I was never really into Event Matches so I can't say I recall a single Brawl one. I remember a few from Melee like Link fighting Marth on Temple, Young Link fighting Link at Great Bay, having to defeat Falcon in 7 seconds, the damn one on the Classic mode long stretch of an F-ZERO track where everything is sped up and the cars basically instakill you. For Sm4sh's I pretty much only remember the bad ones. **** the one where you're Wii Fit fighting 2 giant Wario's and the one where you're on GCO and have to heal off a bunch of damage as Kirby while Dedede's try to attack you. Oh and you're tiny in that one too. The one where Puff has to send 3 characters to sleep was pretty bad too but I don't believe you got anything for doing that one on hard, could be wrong or it could just be that it was less annoying than the other 2.

 

[HelloSpy]

SSB4 event matches, off the top of my head: The Original Heavyweights, that one random Bunny Kong one, The Big 7580 (forget the actual number), That Elusive 9, Unwavering Chivalry, Yellow Devils, Below the Belt, Kirby's Crazy Appetite, the Duck Hunt one with Falco, It's Past Your Bedtime aka the worst event match ever made, In the Name of the Hero-King

SSBB event matches, off the top of my head: Literally just the two I listed

Well, being memorable doesn't mean being good. The Nazis are pretty darn memorable, but were they good people? No.

Okay. Sorry about that last one. It might have been a bit controversial. But it's true.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Again, please do not double post. There's no reason to. Just because nobody replies soon doesn't mean anything. You can also edit out a controversial statement(as what you said wasn't really needed. We get that being memorable isn't inherently good, but it's a comparison that only serves to annoy others).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The only notable problem with Smash 64's 1P Mode is that while your allies may change, the opponent order never changes at all. Melee's Classic Mode at least made your opponents completely random for each playthrough, though you'll never face Ganondorf or Roy, while Mr. Game & Watch is a multi-man exclusive opponent.

As for Brawl's Classic Mode, it lost the randomness by making each stage franchise specific; stage 1 always makes you face a Legend of Zelda fighter.

Smash 3DS brought back Melee's randomness, but sacrifices bonus stages to speed up your playthroughs.

Anyway, while each Classic mode recreation has its ups and downs, the main thing that can keep the mode from feeling repetitive is if the opponents you face are always different (except for Master Hand, who's always the final opponent) for each playthrough.

 

[N. Onymous]

Melee's Classic Mode is my favorite. I kinda wish they'd go back to that style.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Kinda surprised how all written responses (admittedly, a puny 3 but still) have been negative to my Ridley idea. Not sure how much those posters are for Ridley getting in but I'd still see it as a 'better than nothing' sort of deal. The only immediate part of my idea was what if Ridley got added, balance be damned? Let him be OP. But then I got thinking of his issues of working on small stages and multiple Ridley's possibly being too much for the Switch. I'm personally just a casual fan of Ridley and that's really just due to my love for Metroid, namely the Prime games and Super.

Also TheLastJinjo you and I have differing opinions on the different Classic modes where I much prefer the Wii U version and you prefer the older version. Just wondering what exactly you like about it. 64 specifically was very repetitious, fighting the same opponents on the same stage in the same order every time. As far as I recall, Melee randomized the opponents, just keeping them restricted to their respective series' stages (or Temple for the FE characters iirc). I remember with Brawl, the first fight was always something to do with Zelda, be it a 1 on 1 or a team battle and was always on one of the Zelda stages. Past that, I don't recall how Brawl handled it entirely. I know the minigames in 64/Melee/Brawl were always at the same intervals but then Sm4sh took those out completely from Classic. Not trying to **** on your opinion or anything but just genuinely curious what you liked about it or perhaps how you'd change it to make it better?

And you mentioned wanting more clones so here's where I needlessly shoehorn in more discussion of my personal most wanted clones and ask what you think of the addition of Galacta Knight or Toon Zelda? :3

Smash 64 could get away with you fighting the same opponents because you only had to do it with 12 characters. It wasn't any more repetitive than playing Punch-Out!! which also has you fighting the same opponents.

That being said, what I would prefer is possibly what I mentioned with my Adventure Mode, which has you fight the same preset opponents, but you can adjust your path, like in Smash for 3DS. I just don't want to see random set ups. I'd like to see stuff like The Mario Brothers, or Kirby Team. Instead of Ness & Donkey Kong, Giant Zelda, or Ike Team. Maybe you can mix it up with boss fights and enemies like in Smash Run.

As for your other question, I wouldn't mind the addition of Galacta Knight and Toon Zelda is one of my most wanted characters.

 

[Deleted member]

To be honest, While I don't actively attack people for thinking it, I have a lot of trouble nowadays viewing the statement of "Ridley can't work" as being factually incorrect. It really is the case that every argument against him has been proven wrong.

"Ridley is too big":

Smash resizes characters all the time. It's the standard thing of fighting games in general. Even if a character has a certain OP trait in canon (just as an example) they are made to be able to be a playable fighter. Even Sakurai himself said that re-sizing Ridley is possible he just chose not to because.......

"A playable Ridley wouldn't be true to character":

I have the utmost respect for Sakurai and all the hard work he goes through to give us games like Smash Bros. and Kid Icarus Uprising. But I've got a bone to pick with him on this point. I know of a video that I'll be linking here of a Mod that has a playable Ridley that is much truer to his character in Metroid then his status as a boss hazard in Smash Wii U.

Spoiler: Perfectly Workable Ridley

This mod speaks to the attack patterns that Ridley does in boss fights. Quick, agile, ferocious, brutal. The boss hazard has him fly around honestly too often (he spends more time in Metroid games fighting on the ground than you might think), his attacks have too much of a slow delay to them, and he actively assists the fighter that deals enough damage to him. That last one especially is very out of character for Ridley.

Plus, Sakurai is limited in room to talk about excluding such a sensible character for this reason until he gives Ganondorf a proper moveset. I understand Irene's point of him not needing canonical moves to feel like Ganondorf but it still doesn't feel like you're playing as the Main Zelda Villain. Ganondorf is known a lot more for magic, swordplay, and use of a trident. A few physical attacks are fine, he even has a few canonically in Zelda games, but this Falcondorf is going too far.

This "not true to character" thing is practically the only thing keeping Ridley out at this point. And even if Sakurai is the director next time he has changed his mind on things that have kept characters out before. Like how he didn't include Villager in Brawl because he thought Animal Crossing was too peaceful. Once Sakurai realizes Ridley can work then bam. He's in.

"Ridley would be unbalanced"

I once again refer you to the video I linked earlier. Apart from just a tad bit too much range on his forward tilt everything else checks out just fine. Good balance of power, no striking opponents from too far away, and reasonable defenses.

"Ridley is already a boss on Pyrosphere"

Technically the Ridley that Samus fought in Other M at the Pyrosphere wasn't the real Ridley. It was a clone of him. So they could easily just take the boss and the trophy of said boss and re-name it to "Clone Ridley".

Apologies for the long post. It just takes me a little bit to get my two cents in about Ridley a lot of the time.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Changing the difficulty is another way of making things interesting in a classic mode with predetermined characters. For example.

Easy Mode: You fight Metal Mario
Medium Mode: You fight Metal Mario & Metal Luigi
Hard Mode: You fight Giant Metal Mario

 

[Arcanir]

Going into another tangent, it goes without saying that Sakurai will never change his mind on Ridley. For that matter, why would any potential director? Metroid as a franchise sells terribly so the chance of finding a director with a fondness towards Metroid, let alone Ridley, are silm and even the most ardent of Ridley supporters will agree that he will be especially difficult to work on. It's wise for everyone to accept Ridley as one of the big examples of a permanently disconfirmed character and for that matter, we shouldn't expect another Metroid character either simply because even if that sells well, that sales won't be reflected in Japan.

I have a few thoughts on this point.

Firstly, there are many cases where characters are added/return despite middling sales numbers and/or reception for their respective games, even if we restrict it to Japan. Mohter 3 reportedly did not do well in Japan as hoped as it reportedly filled bargain bins and had to have sales to clear its stock, Ike's games were the second and third lowest point in the franchise as far as Japanese sales are concerned, and Little Mac's reception in Japan seems to be more middling when compared to his western popularity (at least online). Yet, none of that affected their playability, Lucas still returned as DLC, Ike returned on the main roster (and even got his least popular design as far as Japan is concerned), and Little Mac was included despite being considered rather niche there. On the other side of the case, selling more then one franchise doesn't guarantee you a character. DK sells well in both regions, with DKC2 for instance selling over 2 million in Japan and Returns selling over half a million, yet it didn't get a new character at all in Smash 4. Sales and reception (even in Japan) are not an end-all-be-all case, Sakurai has shown he's willing to consider characters that are more lacking in either category.

Secondly, regardless of whether or not Sakurai dislikes the franchise (which he's never commented on the matter as far as I'm aware), I doubt he'd let his bias prevent him from giving the franchise a new character if he saw it fit to add. Remember that at Metroid's peak, he did add ZSS, two new stages, a new AT, two bosses, and a number of other neat things to Brawl, which if he didn't care for it he would've avoided giving it that much attention. He's not shown himself to hate the franchise in a way that prevents him from adding new things to it, and honestly, nothing says he wouldn't go the extra mile to add a new character if said character brought something to the table he liked.

Finally, in terms of other Metroid characters, we don't know what the future holds for them. Characters like Sylux don't have Ridley's issues, and popularity-wise they have room to grow, so there's nothing saying they can't be added in the future if they do get the popularity, prominence and other such factors that would leave them as an attractive choice. Saying all of them are doomed is being pretty pessimistic on the matter, Metroid isn't doomed to not get a new character just because Ridley's problems prevented himself from getting into the game. As for the big guy, that depends on a number of factors. Theoretically, we don't know how a new director would feel on the matter and we don't know what designs Ridley may get in the future, so if anything aligns in those cases, then Ridley could be made a playable character down the line. It could very well not happen of course, but there's no guarantee either way that he's doomed to a permanent deconfirmation stance as the future has a number of variables that can shift.
​

 

[N3ON]

Frankly Ridley should just be treated as a character we can assume won't ever be included under Sakurai, and if he does get included at some point, fantastic.

Indefinitely trying to repudiate things comes off obstinate and desperate at this point tbh.

 

[Bowserlick]

Yay or Nay?

One Smash-specific character that originates from Adventure Mode and is a fusion of characters from different franchises.

Example: fusion of original 12.

 

[NintenRob]

When it comes to Metroid. I want either Ridley, or no one. His importance to the franchise and popularity is completely unmatched by anyone else in the franchise.


Yes he is big, but it's a pretty inconsistent big. And a smaller size is a possibility as I believe he was originally small in early Metroid Prime 3 beta (a game which he was inconsistent in size anyway)

Smash Bros normally makes him bigger anyway, except Melee, which he was much closer to a workable.


And I think he's got enough popularity to not give up hope regardless of director. I'm not saying we should expect him and he should definitely not be considered likely, he is very unlikely.

But nothing wrong with keeping hope.



And I'm stubborn.

 

[Deleted member]

Smash Bros normally makes him bigger anyway, except Melee, which he was much closer to a workable.

No, he was still very large in the Melee opening. He only looks smaller due to camera perspective.
(Hint: Look at the Baby in comparison to Samus)